Samus's Rivals...Who gets the SSBB spot?

[Jazzy Jinx]

People that don't want Ridley in argue about the size because it's the only thing that they can find wrong with him but they fail to realize that size is not a big deal. As Stryks has stated, he can be scaled down to the Melee intro size. As for him being a problem control-wise, the developers are trying new things what with characters with wings, destructable stages, enviromental changes, super moves, etc. I am sure they are going to take Smash to new heights with Brawl and Ridley's uniqueness would be one of them.

 

[Rhyme]

multiple jumps similair to MK/Pit's and should have a weight similair to DK, somewhere on that line

*cough*broken*cough*

Have you noticed the increased effectiveness of Kirby's jump in the new trailers? It resembles his Smash 64 second jump. DK is the second heaviest character in the entire game for every version of Melee. Plus, Ridley supporters are quick to mention how fast and strong Ridley is in all the Metroid games. Fast and strong, like Falcon(who is high tier). Giving one single character DK's weight, Kirby's recovery, and Falcon's speed-power mixture is completely broken.

So what's the strat to fix him?

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Ridley is skinny so he would be more of a middle-weight than a heavy-weight. He would just appear big.

 

[Rhyme]

Aka the weight of Shiek.

What about the speed, power, and recovery?

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Give him Bowser's lag to balance it out. As for his power, it doesn't have to be severely high. It could be moderately high.

 

[Rhyme]

But would you still be happy with the character, given the sacrifices that would be neccessary to balance him?

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

I would be happy if he made it in period. When you first used Luigi in Melee, your first impression is that he sucks but over time you relize he can be a very great character. Same deal with Bowser and in this case, Ridley. Besides, Bowser didn't borrow his lag from someone else so Ridley could have his own unique frames and lag.

 

[JJJ.Brawler]

But would it feel right to you and fans of his to have him bowser size?

It depends...

I've never played a Metroid game in my life. None of them...

So I ask, would;

The size of Mario to Bowser = The size of Samus to Ridley?

If so, size is not a problem...

 

[Sheik Prowless]

When Is Brawl Coming Outtttttt

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

We don't know and this is the wrong thread anyway.

 

[Stryks]

Like Uncle kenny, Id be happy if he makes it in, broken or not, I just wanna see him in all his smashing glory, same with dark samus, I just want him freaking-in, tough Ridley 1st, DS 2nd...

 

[Red Exodus]

Aka the weight of Shiek.

What about the speed, power, and recovery?

Medium-fast speed, weak-medium power and poor recovery if he has multiple jumps.

 

[Sensai]

People that don't want Ridley in argue about the size because it's the only thing that they can find wrong with him...

I would disagree. I thinik that they argue about his size because it's the easiest and most apparent thing that you can point out. 'Hey, he's fookin' huge!'

Giving one single character DK's weight, Kirby's recovery, and Falcon's speed-power mixture is completely broken.

So what's the strat to fix him?

Aids. Lots and lots of Aids. And Herpes, too.

Medium-fast speed, weak-medium power and poor recovery if he has multiple jumps.

Doesn't work, my friend. He's a big freakin' space-dinosaur that flies. That immediately throws the 'weak-medium power' idea out the window, along with say he has 'poor recovery.'

Unless, of course, you make it like Jiggly's recovery sans the Rising Pound.

[Edit:]

And to balance him out....the way I see it (he's gotta have a decent recovery, as he flies, and he's gotta be strong, being a big villain and all), he's going to have to be somewhat slower in attacking and be pretty big....like, bigger then Bowser, big.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

My friend, have you played Super Mario Sunshine? He will never be bigger than Bowser.

 

[Rhyme]

Well duH I've played it. Seen the moveset I made? Made me so happy to see Bowser so huge, then sad to see he could lose when all he had to do was squash Mario! Notice implied subjects in the last 3 sentences?

But I'm sure that question was directed at Sensai...Ridley could not surpass Bowser in Metroid, but he could in Brawl. Bowser/DK do have disadvantages because of their sizes, but, the way I see it, you would have to make Ridley equal to Yoshi(dinosaur...dragon...closest) with a Super Mushroom if he were going to be fast, strong, and have good recovery and weight. Then uber Roy lag and he might fit.

I would disagree. I thinik that they argue about his size because it's the easiest and most apparent thing that you can point out. 'Hey, he's fookin' huge!'

Haha...Sensai you are my hero! You're the only person on Smashboards who could say that and not get flamed.

he's going to have to be somewhat slower in attacking and be pretty big....like, bigger then Bowser, big.

Just emphasizing my point.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

The last fight in Sunshine was a big letdown.

And yeah it was directed at Sensai. I think he should be skinny, have a big wingspan, but still be a little smaller than Bowser. The lag should be high to balance him out.

 

[Sensai]

Haha...Sensai you are my hero! You're the only person on Smashboards who could say that and not get flamed.

Just 'cause no one reads anything I post...I've been here a year, most people see 'Sensai' and quickly skip the post.

And Kenny, I meant that Ridley in Brawl should be bigger then Melee's Bowser. And no, I never played Sunshine...it just didn't catch my interest much.

Kenny: If the lag's too high, no one will play him. I don't want him to be unplayable, nor do I want him to be Sheik, either. If the lag is too much (Bowser's Fsmash), he'll be rejected by the Smash scene (like the way Mewtwo is). If it seems like a bit but really isn't (Bowser/Ganon aerials), then he might end up broken.

 

[kaid]

Mewtwo isn't laggy. He's just way too light.

 

[Rhyme]

Mewtwo isn't laggy. He's just way too light.

Smashes were laggy, ariels were good.

Just 'cause no one reads anything I post...I've been here a year, most people see 'Sensai' and quickly skip the post.

Not me.

Spoiler

silence

 

[Devastlian]

SMS is, like, the second best Mario game ever. After Yoshi's Island, of course. But this isn't the topic for that.

No matter what size Ridley is, his wings are gonna be huge which means they'll clip the ground and backdrop when they're extended. I don't think Ridley is ever shown walking or running (I don't know what he does for that dash attack in MP) so he could run like a bipedal dinosaur, he could on all fours, he could do a glidey type deal (which would look horrible with the afore mentioned clipping). And...Ridley's is just too complex of a design for me to analyze and predict how it could be represented. I don't know what everyone pictures in their heads for them to believe Ridley would be such a perfect fit. I see an awesome character taken out of his element and, at best, an awkward controlling character.

So, Mr. Sakurai, Sora, The Studio, and whoever else...surprise me, please. ;p

 

[Stryks]

Sunshine better than sm64? u kddin me??...

anyway yeah makin ridley will be hard, but I trust sakurai and his team, I was actualyl thinking maybe he wouldnt run, maybe like barely floating on the stage, flapping its wings, so he can "soar" or something instead of running, just a tough...

 

[Sensai]

I didn't mean that Mew2 was laggy. I meant that he was just kinda shoved under the rug by us Smashers. None of us ever talk about him...etc.

I don't wanna see Ridley like that. He's got more life to him.

Dammit...he's a good kid!

 

[shadenexus18]

I didn't mean that Mew2 was laggy. I meant that he was just kinda shoved under the rug by us Smashers. None of us ever talk about him...etc.

That's the honest to goodness truth. I was a big fan of Mewtwo, but when the developers of Melee made him into a joke, well, that's when I lost all faith in Mewtwo.

 

[Red Exodus]

I would disagree. I thinik that they argue about his size because it's the easiest and most apparent thing that you can point out. 'Hey, he's fookin' huge!'Aids. Lots and lots of Aids. And Herpes, too.Doesn't work, my friend. He's a big freakin' space-dinosaur that flies. That immediately throws the 'weak-medium power' idea out the window, along with say he has 'poor recovery.'

Unless, of course, you make it like Jiggly's recovery sans the Rising Pound.

[Edit:]

And to balance him out....the way I see it (he's gotta have a decent recovery, as he flies, and he's gotta be strong, being a big villain and all), he's going to have to be somewhat slower in attacking and be pretty big....like, bigger then Bowser, big.

If he's fast, strong and has a good recovery, he'd be higher than god tier, something has to give.

 

[kaid]

Mewtwo has fast moves, average strength and arguably the best recovery in the game. (Puff is the only one to compete)

You don't see people calling HIM god-tier...

 

[shadenexus18]

Ok, ok, ok, I'm not saying Mewtwo was terrible, but c'mon! He's suppose to be "the" most powerful pokemon of the Johto/Kanto era, & yet he fights so "poor" in Melee. Sure I play alright with him now, but I've spent countless hours in training & I'm still having problems winning against competition. The problems are as follows:

1. He doesn't have an aura. (even though this would be cheap)

2. He's just as light as Jigglypuff, so he can be easily knocked off the stage.

3. He's a punching bag.

4. Other than Shadow Ball, his TM move selection was very poor.

I'm not saying to take him off Brawl, I'm just saying he is in desperate need of a tune-up.

 

[Rhyme]

Mewtwo has fast moves, average strength and arguably the best recovery in the game. (Puff is the only one to compete)

You don't see people calling HIM god-tier...

Mewtwo has great recovery, but after Peach, Jiggs, and Samus...possibly Pikachu IMO.(Hint, Pikachu was the only opinionated part) His moves are good but his ground game is awkward and he's a bit too slow in the air. So I don't know, maybe if Ridley's air and ground game are too predictable or basic then he wouldn't be god tier or even high tier.

The way I base recovery is 1)chances of surviving a shinespike, 2)chances of surviving a tipper.

Samus and Peach can survive the tipper, Mewtwo and Jiggs are fairly light and would die first. Pikachu has such a large upB range that as long as you DI upwards you can usually survive. With the Shinespike, Samus can bombjump and grapple, good horizontal sweetspot on the upB, generally 2-3 consecutive shinespikes to kill her. Jiggs gets shinespiked at least 3-4 times before she's out. Mewtwo uses his 2nd jump to approach the ledge, you anticipate an airdodge, shinespike and ledgehog. Peach works the same but the edgehog is harder since she floats. Pika's recovery outranges the dent shinespiking makes and he requires another attack to put away. Overall with my personal rating system, Mewtwo is 4/5th.

Also, Devastlian brings up a good point. Ridley's potentially awkward design is a limiting factor for his inclusion.

 

[kaid]

My take.

Ridley:
Weight: Samus
Floatyness: Jiggs/Luigi/Samus
Airjumps: Jiggs
^B: Not usabe
-No alternate recovery move-

This gives Ridley FOUR offencive B moves, while balancing his recovery.

^B Vertical Missiles- Alright, this is more Meta Ridley, but... a homing missile that can be fired in ANY direction, similar to Yoshi's egg.
B: Fireballs-the more it charges, the more fireballs and wider the sperad. Each fireball has fixed damage and range, charging just adds more of them, fired at the same time at different angles.
vB: Wigover Dive/Bull Charge- Just like Captian Falcon's vB, but without flame effects. Laggier startup, but no lag at the end. DOES return ONE jump... but his jumps are crappy anyway.
<B: Claw Grab: Similar to Bowser's Koopa Claw.

And mewtwo can teleport farther than Fox can shinespike him.

 

[Rhyme]

Good Ridley ideas, I would say you just may have effectively balanced him...maybe.

As for Mewtwo, my friend plays a good one(you may know him by the name PMAC), and I can shinespike edgehog him so easily. Obviously he has to be trying to grab edge for the shinespike to work. If he isn't going for edge, I can edgehop Bair/Uair him. Either way, over 70% Mewtwo's chances of recovering are slim.

 

[kaid]

I played against Zelgatis's fox (Shined Blind) and banaged to rack up over 100% against him over 4 stock.

Fox simply cannot cover both an on-stage teleport and sweetspot at the same time, and his teleport range is so good, you can wait till Fox decided where he's guarding, and chose the other one.

 

[Sensai]

Mewtwo has fast moves, average strength and arguably the best recovery in the game. (Puff is the only one to compete)

You don't see people calling HIM god-tier...

Which moves are you refferring to that are fast? Most of his ground moves are absurdly laggy, and his aerials are pretty slow, too (save his Nair). And they don't call him God tier because they made him freakin' huge, what with that barbaric tail. He's also really slow, jumps funny, and is floaty. In comparison to what Ridley would be (or should be, if being portrayed accurately), which is:

Fast moves
Average-upper strength
Great recovery
Not floaty, and heavy
Quick
Jumps like he's flying(?)

Wow. I just had a neat idea of how to balance him out. Tell me what you guys think.

Notice how he has to fly. Why not make it so that he has to physically flap his wings to get off the ground? Meaning a big start up time for his air game.

Eh...idea's ok. Nothing great. I changed my mind, but for the sake of you guys reading it, I'm keeping it in the post.

And why would Ridley be floaty? Well, I guess Samus is floaty...so nevermind that too.

 

[kaid]

Which moves are you refferring to that are fast? Most of his ground moves are absurdly laggy, and his aerials are pretty slow, too (save his Nair). And they don't call him God tier because they made him freakin' huge, what with that barbaric tail. He's also really slow, jumps funny, and is floaty.

All three of his tilts chain nicely, into each other and into an upsmash/Fair/Uair/Bair. So does a well timed dash attack. His throws are widly considered his best feature, and at lower percentage can chain into several aerials. He moves slow, but wavedashes fast, and his jump and floatyness throw many of my opponents into confusion.

 

[Rhyme]

Scoff! Sorry double post.

 

[Rhyme]

You say you played Zelgadis' Fox? Interesting. Two solutions...one, I'm better at edgeguarding against Mewtwo or two, PMAC's recovery with mewtwo isn't that good. It doesn't matter too much, unless you sweetspot the edge with the upB you can shine him off it and edgehog, I can't visualize your argument because I've played Mewtwo and seen how it works. Congradulations on getting 100% on him though.

Mewtwo's tilts are fast, so is Fair, Uair, Nair, grab. All else I would consider on the slow side. His tilts aren't as powerful as Shieks and you can DI away before getting comboed into a smash if you know good DI. His slowness and floatiness deffinately work against him.

Sensai, are you suggesting like 10 frames jump lag? That's not right. No, I have a feeling that either Nintendo will nerf or break Ridley, there's no way in heck they would lose determination and not put him in. I think...

 

[kaid]

You say you played Zelgadis' Fox? Interesting. Two solutions...one, I'm better at edgeguarding against Mewtwo or two, PMAC's recovery with mewtwo isn't that good. It doesn't matter too much, unless you sweetspot the edge with the upB you can shine him off it and edgehog, I can't visualize your argument because I've played Mewtwo and seen how it works.

The concept is, unless something drastic happens, 90 % of the time you can reach the edge with only your airjump. This leaves your teleport open for evasion.

You have three options

Grab the ledge without teleporting, Uairing any edgeguarder throuth the platform as you ride the wall. (mewtwo's wierd jump will keep you going long enough to reach the ledge.)
Airjump, but teleport to the ledge as you pass it, canceling your jump.
Airjump above the stage, then teleport horizontal, just above the ground. Your shield will go up 4 frames later.

 

[Sensai]

You say you played Zelgadis' Fox?

It's actually Zelgadis's Fox now. Sometime between now and the past 10 years, they've changed it so that instead of just adding a ', you add another S all-together. Meaning....something could be Miss's. We're dumbing down grammar for kids, and No (sic: American) Child Left Behind is making more and more people want to dumb it down even farther.

Woah. I just said something serious in a Brawl thread....my mistake.

And why not 10 frames, Rhyme? I mean, Falco's is 6 (right?). It's an added fifteenth of a second. But, the idea is flawed anyways, although I think for different reasons.

And I think that if Nintendo decides to keep Melee's engine (although they've already added new things in and taken things out), that they could keep the game relatively balanced. They're already got all this information concerning the tier lists as is, they know all the advanced techs...it wouldn't be hard for them to just alter everyone a bit, ya dig?

[Edit:]

This is 100% off topic, but if you wanna be freaked out, and you have 5 minutes, check out this video:

http://www.thatvideosite.com/video/3892

No, nothing's going to jump at you. It's more like a 'get under your skin' type of thing.

 

[Red Exodus]

If Ridley happens to get a up B but only like 2 or 3 mid-air jumps his up b should be like a liftoff that has high knockback if the blast hits any opponent.

 

[Rhyme]

It's actually Zelgadis's Fox now. Sometime between now and the past 10 years, they've changed it so that instead of just adding a ', you add another S all-together.

Hence why English is a dumb language. After painfully learning to not put an "s" at the end of stuff, now we have to? When did they change it, I never heard anything about that.

OMG, that's a children's show?!? So messed up.

Interesting idea, Red Exodus, one that might work.

 

[Red Exodus]

Thank you, I have a fetish :freak: for flighted creatures, the bigger the wings the better.

I think I'll stick with my s' instead of converting to s's though.

 

[shadenexus18]

Good Ridley ideas, I would say you just may have effectively balanced him...maybe.

As for Mewtwo, my friend plays a good one(you may know him by the name PMAC), and I can shinespike edgehog him so easily. Obviously he has to be trying to grab edge for the shinespike to work. If he isn't going for edge, I can edgehop Bair/Uair him. Either way, over 70% Mewtwo's chances of recovering are slim.

I won't deny the fact that there are some good Mewtwo players out there. (my twin brother mains Mewtwo & he's such a nuisance) However, I willing to bet that it took them an awfully long time to get use to his awkward moveset & aerial movement. Maybe on Brawl they should have this thing called Level of Play. It should look like this.....

Falco: For Beginners

Luigi: For Intermediates

Mewtwo: For Experts

@ Rhyme, I also shine spike Mewtwo players till the cows come home lol.