Samus is bad.

[Hylian]

Some more food for thought:

Wouldn't saying samus is good be insulting to samus players? Samus's tournament preformance isn't too hot. Are you saying everyone who plays Samus is bad? If not, then why the low placings?

.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Or maybe ya know..you are just alot better then your opponents.

This is always a factor.

Or maybe cuz you know..not a whole lot of people play Samus. So they don't have any match-up experience vs her. This is a huge factor.

And who the hell said Marth destroys Samus? 6/4 is not "destroying" anyone.

 

[Ravin]

Its still way too early to say tounry results are set in stone. saying she is good should give light and positive insight to other players. Why would it be a good thing to say "Samus is good to play" as in "Samus sucks balls, dont use the person you enjoy playing."

As for an insult, hardly. Having a guy next to you go. "That Samus was ****ing as hard as hell" As i saw, most Mk players are ******* (no offense) one at the tounry i just went to cussed his head off and *****ed how "Snakes utilt was cheap" when he spammed MAch Tornado seven times in a row and still lost.

 

[Gum]

@Hylian: As to whether or not it is insulting to say that Samus is good is up to the individual. Consider this: Given two people use Samus, and both play against opponents of equal skill one does amazing, KO's on time, spaces well, reads their opponents, and wins their matches while the other just....doesn't. What is that based on? Also consider how many people use Samus as opposed to other characters in tourneys. That, and the fact that their are lots of people who may not necessarily post tourney results all the time or ever for that matter who might be amazing with Samus. A lot of people never heard the name Forte until Brawl, even though he was amazing in melee anyway. Im sure there are people who are amazing who we don't know about. Of course we can only go by what we see, but that still doesn't give us room to enfatically state that she just outright sucks. I myself place well consistently. Very rarely do I actually win, but I like the fact that I can make it into the top 5 with a character who everyone says is bad. Thats my only real goal.

@Emblem Lord: All those things you mentioned are indeed factors that need to be considered. In this case I am playing against people who play me often so they do indeed have Samus experience and many of them are the one's winning tourneys, so lack of sufficient or equal skill isnt the issue either. Keep in mind also that I am not trying to toot my own horn or anything. I'm just to offer my argument from what I've experienced to the best of my ability. Also, I wasn't addressing the 6:4 ratio that you contributed. It was more directed at those who actually say "Samus is garbage now, Marth ***** her." Im sure we have all heard that at least once since Brawl was released.

 

[Quez256]

Some more food for thought:

Wouldn't saying samus is good be insulting to samus players? Samus's tournament preformance isn't too hot. Are you saying everyone who plays Samus is bad? If not, then why the low placings?

.

This could drop into a tier discussion based on tournament placings, but since those matchups are the only ones being tracked, it's impossible to make a truly accurate......**** that's a hard question >_>
I could say more about her metagame taking a hell of a lot longer to advance due to the small playerbase, or the fact that those placing in the tournaments with Samus may simply be facing better players, rather than judging the matchup by who's using who. I'll add to this later. **** Hylian, you just killed my whole thought process with that post.

 

[Mars-]

Its best to address this not by "ZOMG SAMUS RULES" or "ZOMG SAMUS SUCKS", but by listing the FACTS.

PROS OF SAMUS:

-Still has an awesome recovery
-Zair is a great move for spacing and approach
-Fair is a good damage racker, and can be a good approach move.
-Bombs are great for mindgames due to the long amount of time you can stay airborne
-Most moves still has farily quick speed
-She is still pretty heavy.
-Can still hold her own in a projectile match
-Amazing grab and throws IMO, due to its crazy range


CONS:
-Charge Shot is horrificaly nerfed
-utter lack of priority
-Most moves have been nerfed, limiting kill options(bair, dtilt, fsmash, dair for spikes, and dsmash if they are light)
-dtilt is still strong, but smaller hitbox
-Missles has been slightly nerfed.
-Shes never been the fastest character.


Ill let people decide for themselves about how good/bad samus is. There is no denying she is worse than in melee, but not necessarily bad. I for one as a melee samus main still use her in friendlies occasionaly, trying to find ways to use her better, and trying to find ATs. Untill then Fox and Lucario will hold the line for me.

This is the best post I have seen.

 

[Koji123]

I find that Samus' play style really does it for me. As for whether shes bad or not is ultimately up to each individual person to decide this. Sure you can have a debate about it and try and change how people see Samus as a character but in the end the only thing that gets accomplished is a nifty pro's and con's list and alot of angry Samus mainer's. I personally can't see myself playing any other character on the roster.​

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Hey guys, Samus can hold her own against, Snake, MK, Marth, and Rob. That makes her fine in my book. Plus, if you want to talk about a character being virtually unplayable, I suggest taking a look at Falcon.

And actually, I'm getting less and less interested in brawl. The character balance is so screwed up its just lame. With a game like Brawl, you have to balance test it for at least 5 or 6 months after you complete the game. Nintendo was just in a hurry to rush it out and capture the casual crowd's attention.

I think we should be talking less about why a character is good or bad, and more about how to get around the stupid **** that was put in this game like tripping. I mean, you could be the best player in the world, and then lose because you trip. Thats a load of crap.

I'm just pissed I lost a local tournament because of tripping. Took second but still. Oh, and it was against a MK, so that shows Samus can hold her own, at least for me. I also played my other main Yoshi and did pretty well with him.

That aside though, its becoming more and more apparent that Brawl wasn't designed for competitive play and thus my interest in playing it competitively is starting to wane.

 

[M@v]

1st off, thanks for the comment Mars. I appreciate it.

Zair also Brawl-combos into Charge shot.
And you forgot her nil landing lag on all aerials.




Fast how? Not in running or any kind of movement, but her attacks come out fast. nair, fair, uair, dtilt, bair fast enough, Fsmash faster than many others'.

Missiles have been majorly nerfed. Smash missiles can't kill a bleeding MK who's already standing on the side of Smashville. It's like their only use is to break shields... and be somewhat annoying sources of damage.

Sorry about these discrepancys. I dont play samus nearly as much as I used to, but slightly can be interpreted to varying degrees. They still come out fast, go far, and still move very fast, forcing opponents to think fast and possibly drop what they are doing. Power wise they do suck almost as much as charge shot. Wolfs blaster is weaker, and look how good of a move it is. Same goes for Pits arrows. Heck, Foxs blaster doesnt even FLINCH them. Point: power isnt everything.

What I would appreciate, actually, is a scientization of *why* she is bad. I can feel how her moveset is limited, but how to capture this in words? It's the obvious, yes, of no telegraphed K.O. moves, but also... a lack of defenses somehow.. the inability to defend herself with aggression. Not inability but difficulty.

Im not saying shes bad. The point of this thread isnt to prove she sucks. I posted the facts of her performance. Some may interpet her as bad, others good. Thats with ALL characters(Besides our friends MK and snake of course ). This thread is about thinking more in depth about samus rather than coming out and blatently saying shes good or bad.

Some more food for thought:

Wouldn't saying samus is good be insulting to samus players? Samus's tournament preformance isn't too hot. Are you saying everyone who plays Samus is bad? If not, then why the low placings?

.

This is a true point. I think its because although if Samus is good or bad is up for discussion, lets not forget who most of those samus players go up against. Lets see....MK is a wild guess, NO ONE uses him...at all. He sucks anyway . Snakes another one, Falco and G&W are probably frequents too(At a 16 man tourney i recently went to, 6 mained falco). Lets not forget DDD . These guys pretty much kill the WHOLE cast, so Samus probably isnt the only one having issues.

 

[heypancho]

Her. Roll. Sucks.

From shield I always feel pressured because first of all her grab is laggy if missed, and rolling again, sucks.

 

[n00b]

^ up b OOS, retreatng sh air dodge->zair

 

[heypancho]

But even then, upb from shield doesn't always connect, and sh air dodge zair is still limited. I'm just whining though. My friend who uses Peach goes full blast combo on me because her dumb speed, dumb grab, and her dumb annoying jab that seems to interrupt nearly everything. Not to mention her dair which can outprioritize upb. DUMB.

 

[PKNintendo]

Samus would be high tier easily if she could kill.

 

[Orichalcum]

There are ways to kill lol,

 

[Rohins]

Hmm well I'll post my experience with Samus:

Singles: Always top ten, have gotten 1st, 3rd, and 4th. That being said, my placing has dropped to about a consistent 9th-ish placing at the last three tournaments I went to. People I'm facing are getting better vs Samus, but it's been showing me some areas I need to work on so I'll continue to improve.

Doubles: I placed my worst in doubles last weekend. That would be 3rd place. Samus seems to me is a really solid team character. Her weak kill moves are circumvented through your partner, there are more opportunities to dair, you can easily interrupt your partner being chain grabbed with zair. You can also use her crappy hitboxes as an advantage for attacking over your crouching partner in some cases.

As far as matchups, I don't feel she is outright countered by any specific character. Metaknight and Olimar I would say are her hardest matchups. I think MK's popularity holds her back from placing well on a broader scale; Samus mains need to learn to fight MK if they want to place well.

Now I'm just going to point out a couple strengths that I feel Samus mains should master. Those are ledge game and spacing. Samus has tons of options from the ledge. I'm not going to list them all, but you should learn to do as much as you can from the ledge and when to properly use them. Spacing is important for all characters (duh). Three key moves for controlling space are: zair, upB, and ftilt. They are all fast and cover a lot of space. Of course be smart about how you use them, you don't want to be punished for repetitive behavior.

Edit: I don't think she's bad and no one that I've played thinks she's bad. The only time I get pissed at her is when my fsmash goes through someone and doesn't hit or when I just miss a bair.

 

[Crystanium]

Her. Roll. Sucks.

From shield I always feel pressured because first of all her grab is laggy if missed, and rolling again, sucks.

Unless I haven't been paying any attention, I noticed that Tudor doesn't use rolls at all. I've only seen him use it once and that was it. I am trying to get into the habit of not rolling anymore. Why waste extra frames that could be used for something else? Besides, it's better to be in a neutral position where every attack and defense is available for you. That's why instead of rolling behind my opponent, I'll use my d-smash if they get behind me. Not only can it hit twice, but it also pushes your opponent away if he or she shields, which gives you that space you need.

 

[Eyada]

The only time I get pissed at her is when my fsmash goes through someone and doesn't hit

This has been happening to me far too much lately. Has anyone been able to discern any sort of cause for this? (eg, not angling the F-Smash, opponent in weird animation, F-Smash having a strangely shaped hitbox, Samus' F-Smash simply having sloppy/poor programming, something else?) I've played around with it a little bit, but I can't find any real reason for it. It'd be nice to figure out what causes it so it can be avoided.

 

[tha_carter]

Her combo'ing ability gives her limitless potential, not to mention her great recovery for a heavy character.

Id say all she needs is a reliable way to combo into a charged shot before
she's taken seriously.

 

[Crystanium]

This has been happening to me far too much lately. Has anyone been able to discern any sort of cause for this? (eg, not angling the F-Smash, opponent in weird animation, F-Smash having a strangely shaped hitbox, Samus' F-Smash simply having sloppy/poor programming, something else?) I've played around with it a little bit, but I can't find any real reason for it. It'd be nice to figure out what causes it so it can be avoided.

I've experienced that, and I have a video if it occurring when my friend and I were brawling online. We were at Yoshi's Island. He was Captain Falcon and I was Samus. I used my f-smash on him, and he was simply walking toward me, which looks strange, because it looks like something the CPU would do. Anyway, I hit him with my f-smash, but he didn't get injured and he didn't get knocked back.

 

[Solo Assass1n]

This has been happening to me far too much lately. Has anyone been able to discern any sort of cause for this? (eg, not angling the F-Smash, opponent in weird animation, F-Smash having a strangely shaped hitbox, Samus' F-Smash simply having sloppy/poor programming, something else?) I've played around with it a little bit, but I can't find any real reason for it. It'd be nice to figure out what causes it so it can be avoided.

Oh trust me, this had been pissing me off for a while, too. I was testing it in training mode, and found out if you walk toward your opponent, and are right next to them as you smash, it will pass through them. I know this is one way that her forward smash misses, but there could be some more I'm unaware of. I can put up a video demonstrating it later if anyone thinks it's necessary.

 

[Gum]

Instead of rolling I have started buffering bombs out of missile cancels and aeials. This helps a lot against MK and Marth.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Once people master Samus she will be a force to be reckoned with thats for sure.

 

[Quez256]

Her combo'ing ability gives her limitless potential, not to mention her great recovery for a heavy character.

Id say all she needs is a reliable way to combo into a charged shot before
she's taken seriously.

Z-air>chargeshot(low %)
N-air>chargeshot
Homing missile>chargeshot
D-air spike>chargeshot(situational)
Heck, you could probably carry a f-air to a chargeshot if you time it right.
And please don't forget the SHSMC>chargeshot

 

[heypancho]

Limiting rolls makes enough sense to make that kind of "sacrifice," though, it's just difficult to know what to do when shielding and someone is in your face. My friend who uses Peach is faster and has more range in her attacks. I have a hard time against her. The match turns into zairing and camping. Up close I get fail sauce splashed all over me between her faster grab, combos and speed. It's just his Peach for some reason though..

Sort of sidetracked a little, but more to the point.. Samus is pretty bad. She NEEDS to combo to win while others are just good at killing. but Samus isss badass... the mindgames and tricks she pulls out are more satisfying if not just crowd pleasing. yeah.. TUDOR

 

[ShadowLink84]

About the Fsmash since people were confused about it.

Her Fsmash has a rather limited hitbox and it doesn't come out until her arm has fully been extended.
So that very small period where she thrusts her arm there is no hitbox.

 

[Deathcarter]

In a relative sense (which is the only one that truly matters), she is bad. Competetively speaking, if Samus players cannot place consistently with her, she is bad.

And as far as her potential goes, Toon Link is pretty much as difficult to learn as Samus is, but he is spoken highly of while Samus is thrown into bottom tier. Why is that? If Samus was good, wouldn't there be talk of her being in mid tier at least?

 

[Tyser]

She's bad, but I love her still.

 

[Pika Flame]

Bad recovery, low jump=Samus

 

[Ravin]

Bad recovery, low jump=Samus

Your kidding right? xD

 

[Crystanium]

Your kidding right? xD

I remember the time when some person came in this Character Chat sub-forum and argued that Samus had a terrible recovery compared to Link. Um, no.

 

[Aran]

wasn't that just like last week?

 

[Kodachrome]

I do believe that this is also the same person who made a thread in the ZSS section titled "ZSS is bad at created stages (mostly)" because she can't tether onto most block sets. <_<

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Bad recovery, low jump=Samus

Alright, YOU sir, do not know Brawl.

-Ter

 

[Ravin]

I remember the time when some person came in this Character Chat sub-forum and argued that Samus had a terrible recovery compared to Link. Um, no.

xD I no rite, samus r sukorz...

I wish people would actually research some before they opened their mouths. xD

 

[imdavid]

samus is... bbbbb-addd to the bone

 

[Jing)]

your just bad cause you suck at her and try and blame it on the character so you dont seem nabd. I dont care if you claim to have invented samus and all that bull**** your still a scrub.

 

[I feel asleep]

Alright, I figure it's about time i state my opinion on this subject instead of messing with Hylain <3

Samus is nowhere near "bad" she is just not meta knight.
She has all the tools required too build damage, survive, and pressure. the only thing she lacks is reall just unpunishable killing moves(MK d-smash, snake u-tilt) although Z-air is next to unpunishable and it -can- kill.

Through my experience, even against great players. i have been able to go toe-to-toe with Wobbles(MK-55%ish win rate, his favor. we played a bunch), DSF(snake-3-2 his favor, friendlies at AZone2) and Forward(50-50) just to name a few. Now, if Samus is truly terrible, there would have been no way I could have been rivaling these players. unless i was exponentioly better than they were(which i don't think i am)

Samus is a very difficult character just pick up and play, unlike mk(up-b>glideattack>upbglideattack lol) and because of this, the people that play Samus are either
1: They are bad at the game and play Samus for fun, which is fine. but when they lose they complain about how she sucks instead of the fact that the player is the one who sucks.
2: People who have messed around a bit with Samus, know how to fight somewhat well, possibly are trying to emulate a better Samus player. usually can win against friends. but never win in tournaments. these are the players who usualy claim Samus is amazing. mostly because they watch highlight-video's like TOOL.
3: The people who actually have mained Samus since day 1(or earlier, melee, 64) and are sticking through the "samus sucks" prediciment. these are the great Samus main's who know she isn't the best character in the game. but can hold her own against the better characters if the player is good enough with Samus. Myself, Tudor, Rohins and Xyro fall into this category.

Is samus amazing? no. is she bad? also no. while the fact that she isn't comperable to MK who kills at 90% with 4 of his nigh-unpunishable attacks. nor is she snake who can kill at 90% with 2 attacks that come out insanely fast. However, once people learn the nuances, tricks and setups. Samus has potential to hold her own against any character in the game, as long as the player who is using her is good enough.

 

[Gum]

really though, pretty much everything everyone has been saying about Samus NOT being bad is a repeat of what has been said so many times before. It's probably not worth debating at this point. Just get good with YOUR Samus, and whether or not she is good can be determined by how many people you pwn.

 

[Orichalcum]

How come ppl tell me my samus is good, Samus is as bad as you make her :3 /thread

 

[Psydon]

I'm nothing special as a Smash player. I've never been to any tournament anyone would take seriously, nor have I ever played against any good players. I'm not even that serious about the game; without a good online mode it's just become as boring as Melee, so my skill with Samus from Melee (I knew all the tricks and how to swing 'em) has degraded. But nevertheless, I want to give my two cents.

Is Samus bad? No. What makes Samus seem bad is the simple fact that she's not easy to use. She's not a stunking like Lucas or Zelda, she can't spam 1/8 of her moveset to win like Marth or Metaknight, she can't WoP and she's neither an insane powerhouse nor a speed demon. She's not Marth and she's not a space animal.

Samus, like Lucas, is a character full of depth and tricks.

Her moves are extremely versatile and diverse. On the positive slant this makes her unpredictable and offers a variety of playstyles. On the negative slant this presents a problem for people who just want to win. Winning with Samus is not easy simply because almost her entire moveset is one trick after another, not to mention the fact that she doesn't have a single truly reliable kill move. In fact, none of her moves are reliable; they're awkward to use and don't seem to combo into each other well. Samus players have to use the entire bag of tricks; they have to be extremely technical and combo-oriented, screwing with their opponents the entire battle and setting them up for a kill. This isn't easy to do, and when compared to some of the "better" characters it seems like a more logical choice to pick them since they are easier to use and can kill much more easily.

Samus is more than capable of taking down any character controlled by any player, but only in the hands of a player who has taken the time to understand her moves and utilize them to their fullest.

To lesser players, yes, Samus sucks royally; don't even bother. Go play Marth or IC or Pit or Olimar or Fox or MK.

To those of you who, like me, love Samus and are willing to stick with her and endure all of her issues, she can be godly.