Sakurai knows what he is doing

[MookieRah]

Like Gimpy said your going to have to learn how to play these character differently because it isn't melee it is brawl

Either that or you know... not play them, cause they were gimped to much.

I'm glad that some of you guys are more aware of possible balance problems with brawl from what I said though. Usually If I brought that before it was just shrugged off. I'm pretty **** optimistic about Brawl in general though (SONIC!!!!), but people need to realize that while Sakurai knows how to make a FUN game, he doesn't really know how to balance a game. That said, VERY few companies do, and Melee wasn't that bad of a balance considering.

 

[PaperLink]

the tiers will be different this time around, we can pretty sure about that. (hoping for a top-tier link!....that's not gonna happen, is it?), but Even if he sucks, ill main him. I'm not someone who mains someone for their tier position (and judging what i see in your porfile and pics, neither do you, mookie), but I still think melee was great as far as balance went (cept for you know...). Just hoping he can make this one more balance and reduce the number of tiers. (top tier, high tier, and Ike lol). He's not perfect, but he's one of the best out there

 

[MookieRah]

I'm not someone who mains someone for their tier position (and judging what i see in your porfile and pics, neither do you, mookie)

Funny story, I began maining Mewtwo for ****s and giggles. Ended up being my best character and ended up being the #1 Mewtwo in the country for over a year.

I play whoever I feel like sticking with. Winning with them is important too, cause I always like to feel like I'm progressing. If I don't I begin to lose interest, and will probably switch characters. I'm weird like that.

Back on topic:
I would like to see the game balanced more than melee. I'd like to see Nintendo show us that they are learning from the mistakes made with Melee. If they did then you would see a lot of simple but effective balancing, and they would tweak things with the speed and power issue more. As it stands, it looks like the dev team decided to fix certain characters that had huge deficits in the last game (Bowser) but screw others that were pretty dang balanced (Samus). Again, it's the age old problem of not using the nerf bat apropriately.

 

[RyNo 86]

As it stands, it looks like the dev team decided to fix certain characters that had huge deficits in the last game (Bowser) but screw others that were pretty dang balanced (Samus). Again, it's the age old problem of not using the nerf bat apropriately.

I agree. Sakurai has been trying to get the games balanced since ssb 64 before any of us really even cared about balance, but making a more balanced games not as easy as telling someone to build a better mouse trap. I just don't find it feasible to make a perfectly balanced game. No matter what you do some characters will be better at things than others and they will exploit it. To make the game balanced they have to nerf the really good characters (fox, falco, peach) and improved the bad ones (Link, DK, Bowser, Pikachu). But even after that it won't be perfectly balanced. Sakurai is taking baby steps.

 

[MookieRah]

they have to nerf the really good characters (fox, falco, peach)

Yet Peach was buffed like crazy. Out of the characters that could DJC (double jump cancel) in melee, she is the only one who can still perform it. Not to mention that float canceling still exists. To top it off she is way faster than before as well. Everyone knows that they nerfed the downsmash, but honestly the nerf just reduced the amount of damage it could potentially do and made it more static. What kind of "balance" were they attempting with this? Again, what the hell are they thinking? It's obvious they decided to take DJC out for Yoshi (who honestly needs everything he can get) and others, but WTF at letting Peach have it still?

Seriously, I don't think Sakurai is knowing what he is doing when it comes to balance.

I just don't find it feasible to make a perfectly balanced game.

I'm not asking for perfect balance, I don't think anyone is. We all know that isn't possible; however, they could do A LOT better job at balancing than they currently are. Contrary to what a lot of people think, one can balance things for standard play and competitive play, as opposed to siding with either one.

 

[RyNo 86]

Yet Peach was buffed like crazy. Out of the characters that could DJC (double jump cancel) in melee, she is the only one who can still perform it. Not to mention that float canceling still exists. To top it off she is way faster than before as well. Everyone knows that they nerfed the downsmash, but honestly the nerf just reduced the amount of damage it could potentially do and made it more static. What kind of "balance" were they attempting with this? Again, what the hell are they thinking? It's obvious they decided to take DJC out for Yoshi (who honestly needs everything he can get) and others, but WTF at letting Peach have it still?

Yeah, sakurai screwed up, I already hate peach for being so good, although they did give her a piece a crap FS, but that doesn't really help. I don't know what sakurai was thinking. I used to play yoshi and I can't believe they took that away from him, that's practilcally the only think keeping him from the bottom of the tier list. His idea of balance may be flawed some, because I think he tried to balance it out by making his up-b give him height but DJC is more important i think.

 

[Firebert]

*hopes for an original commercial for brawl and not a "wii would like to play" one*

Lol, that would suck! But it is likely. =(

 

[Deleted member]

lol Yah, I mean wtf is up with that? You say stuff on the Wii is kiddie crap yet on Smash Bros. you play as pink puffballs, princesses, and Pokemon. It's ****ing Nintendo, your trying to make it serious? The games not really meant to be made into a competitive bore, its supposed to be fun. If you guys wanna be competitive and wanna prove that the only thing your good at in life is beating people at a certain game, then go play Halo or something like that with the rest of the douches.

Competative bore? WTF. The only reasons i go to tourneys is becuz they are fun. All i prove is that i can lose Anyways, Didnt hugs say that overall, samus was buffed, even though her projectiles were nerfed

 

[PaperLink]

Competative bore? WTF. The only reasons i go to tourneys is becuz they are fun. All i prove is that i can lose Anyways, Didnt hugs say that overall, samus was buffed, even though her projectiles were nerfed

Yea, but I think that what's bad is that she should have powerful projectiles, but if it makes her a good fighter, hey I'm all for it.

I think we can come a general agreement that he's trying to make the game balanced, but he's failing in certain parts. Hope they can fix peach.

 

[MookieRah]

I wish they got a handful of top melee players as part of the team for balancing. I know this has been said before in the past, but it would really do wonders. This goes for casual play as well as that zany competitive stuff, the balance would just be better all around. Not only would they adjust the obvious issues, they would probably discover all the glitch like features as well, and perhaps they would adjust the game to accommodate it.

Some things I personally would do:
Have every character have an effective 1 frame attack. In melee these attacks were limited to only fox, falco, and bowser. These were probably some of the best moves in the game because of the sheer speed they had, and it allowed it to counter people being overly aggressive.

Add some form of aerial grab for all characters:
Bowser had it (THE KLAW!! ZOMG!!), and it was great. It prevented people from whoring the shield and blocking all of his approaches. It was also great for tricking (MINDGAMES LOLZ) opponents into shielding and what not. Probably one of my favorite moves, period.

IF they made those two things universal among the characters then there would be significantly more balance. Why do that though? Well there is PLENTY of diversity with the characters but if they all had some of these incredible countermeasures for offense and defensive options the gap between them wouldn't be so great. A lot of the reason why some characters aren't as good is because they don't have the options that other characters do.

But yeah, that rant is sorta off topic.

 

[PaperLink]

not SO far off topic... but while the game does need some balance, melee was Ok overall. they just need to reduce the amount of tiers.

 

[Tehdave]

not SO far off topic... but while the game does need some balance, melee was Ok overall. they just need to reduce the amount of tiers.

When making Melee I don't think they had the mindset of "LET'S MAKE A LOT OF TIERS!!"

Yeah.

 

[schlepboogie]

Explain, cause I think if it was up to the community as a whole the game would have so many broken fights, and tingle would actually be playable.

no u mean cel shaded link....

 

[Psydon]

I main Samus and I'm gonna wait until I play Brawl to make my judgment but Samus sounds like she's screwed. All she had was a projectile game, everything else helped her projectile game in some way but now she's going to have to fight close range. Plus she's bigger than before.

I'll be honest: although it is true we'll have to relearn how to play almost all of the characters, I really do not think that any of the characters in the demo were finalized. Think about it:

Charge Shot = Faster charge, but weaker and with slightly smaller blast radius. More of a rapid attack in absolute terms.

Missiles = Very small amount of upward knockback.

Does the latter really seem logical to you? It doesn't to me. I think that in the final version her Missiles will be akin to, if not identical to, their Melee form.

 

[FightingGameGuy]

I'll be honest: although it is true we'll have to relearn how to play almost all of the characters, I really do not think that any of the characters in the demo were finalized. Think about it:

Charge Shot = Faster charge, but weaker and with slightly smaller blast radius. More of a rapid attack in absolute terms.

Missiles = Very small amount of upward knockback.

Does the latter really seem logical to you? It doesn't to me. I think that in the final version her Missiles will be akin to, if not identical to, their Melee form.

Its also totally illogical that Fox's laser goes only about 5 feet in the Demo. But I'm pretty darn certain that's a change that's going to be in the final version (to appease someone's shouts of cheap!) so I'm also pretty darn certain that logic has nothing to do with their attempts to balance the game and hence that Samus' projectile game has in fact been nerfed beyond repair. Sorry : (.

 

[Psydon]

Its also totally illogical that Fox's laser goes only about 5 feet in the Demo. But I'm pretty darn certain that's a change that's going to be in the final version (to appease someone's shouts of cheap!) so I'm also pretty darn certain that logic has nothing to do with their attempts to balance the game and hence that Samus' projectile game has in fact been nerfed beyond repair. Sorry : (.

From a purely physical-reality standpoint, both cases are illogical. But speaking from the idea of the game itself.

1. Fox doesn't need his lasers; he really doesn't. All of Fox's combos, killer moves, etc. are close range. At least Falco could've used his to stop projectiles, screw up recovery and set people up via SHB into killer combos. Just like he wrote on the dojo:

"Run! Fly! Move boldly! For such moves are the essence of Fox!"

Fox is meant to be a speedy close-range fighter, so to that end he's designed the Blaster so that it has to be used at a closer range. Not just that, forcing people to remain closer with Fox overall makes Fox a more active fighter (after all, the closer you are to your opponent the more you have to move and do something).

2. Shortening Fox's blaster solves the issues of:

-Laser camping
-Blasting somebody once and running around all over the place while the timer runs out, or otherwise just getting in silly pops and then forcing your opponents to come to you.

But let's look at Samus' Missiles (as a Samus player, I don't have much qualms with her Charged Shot. I'll take the less power for a faster charge and a faster flying shot, just as long as its stun and knockback direction remain the same). What problems does making her Missiles worse, and THAT worse, solve? What does it do for Samus, who is supposed to be a long-range fighter anyway?

Samus' Missiles are weaker. Okay, that's fine, 'cause they were pretty cheap in Melee. But apparently they're so weak that they do virtually nothing. Where is the sense in that?

And what little they do is apparently vertical now. But what good is vertical knockback if it's so weak? There is simply nothing, absolutely nothing, sensible about what Samus' Missiles have become. A slight power drop? That's reasonable. But not this.

Edit: (I'll be honest; I think Samus' Missiles aren't as nerfed as we've thought.)

 

[MookieRah]

I really do not think that any of the characters in the demo were finalized. Think about it:

I'm guessing that they were done for the most part, barring minor tweaks here and there. The projectiles knockback and whatnot aren't minor things, so it's pretty evident to me that it was their intention for them to be like it was in the demo. Keep in mind, this game has been at beta stage for a while, so if they haven't figured out by E4All that the missiles and charge shot need to be buffed I doubt they will make any alterations.

 

[Rx-]

Almost every move in Melee had *some* value. It was always a situational thing. Samus will probably still be a very technical character in Brawl, and I'm sure the missiles will come into play regardless of their weakened state. Sakurai's team is playing this game far too much each day to not remember that balance is the most important factor of longevity in a fighting game.

 

[MookieRah]

Sakurai's team is playing this game far too much each day to not remember that balance is the most important factor of longevity in a fighting game.

Explain Peach's buffs plz.

 

[Red Exodus]

I hate Peach, I was originally mainly a Mario main but I'm a Samus/Mario player now, but back when Mario was everything I hated Peach, especially that dsmash, it was probably the most broken move in the game seeing as:

It took no real skill to reap results [i.e. spamming it works]
Little to no lag
Easily does over 40%
Big hitbox
Destroys shield

To me it sounds like Peach is going to be the best character in the game, even though the dsmash was nerfed.

 

[The Dragon]

Explain Peach's buffs plz.

only real men use peach??

 

[MookieRah]

That was in response to the guy who said that Sakurai cares about balance cause they play it too much not to.

 

[The Dragon]

yes i know but that was me agreeing with you basically about there being no real reason to peach being so overpowered

 

[Psydon]

I'm guessing that they were done for the most part, barring minor tweaks here and there. The projectiles knockback and whatnot aren't minor things, so it's pretty evident to me that it was their intention for them to be like it was in the demo. Keep in mind, this game has been at beta stage for a while, so if they haven't figured out by E4All that the missiles and charge shot need to be buffed I doubt they will make any alterations.

Aren't you happy that Brawl has been delayed for optimization? ^_^

Almost every move in Melee had *some* value. It was always a situational thing. Samus will probably still be a very technical character in Brawl, and I'm sure the missiles will come into play regardless of their weakened state. Sakurai's team is playing this game far too much each day to not remember that balance is the most important factor of longevity in a fighting game.

1. Please explain to me, if they are exactly as Gimpy has described them, how Samus' Missiles could have any true value? Really.

2. To an extent, that is true (ex. Link). But, to an extent, that is very far from true (Peach).

 

[RyNo 86]

I do think the demo really was a demo and the players weren't really done yet. They made the demo to see how people would play the game and how enjoyable it was. There will probably be some improvements to samus and some nerf's to peach.

 

[PaperLink]

They've had to have changed them from their E4all counterparts. It just seems logical.

 

[The Dragon]

yah i agree, i don't think that they wouldn't make any changes since then, even if minor they still must have done something with all this extra time they have

 

[The Hypnotist]

Seriously, I don't think Sakurai is knowing what he is doing when it comes to balance.

Mookie knows what he's talking about. And to be honest I'm tired of people acting like Sakurai is a god, he just got lucky with the competitive scene of Melee. He wants the game to be casual, he's lowering the laerning curve, he made L-Canceling easier, he mad catching items easier, he took out wavedashing, he said real men play with items. He's not that great. I don't think Sakurai knows anything about tiers, he thinks that Link and Gannon are top tier.

 

[bballstar23]

Mookie knows what he's talking about. And to be honest I'm tired of people acting like Sakurai is a god, he just got lucky with the competitive scene of Melee. He wants the game to be casual, he's lowering the laerning curve, he made L-Canceling easier, he mad catching items easier, he took out wavedashing, he said real men play with items. He's not that great. I don't think Sakurai knows anything about tiers, he thinks that Link and Gannon are top tier.

I'm still not sure if Sakurai ever intended for tiers to exist, nor did he expect Melee to become as competitive as it has. I can tell you that most people who play the game don't really know about the competitive scene.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Sakurai didn't intend for tiers to exist, he got lucky with the whole competitive thing. And of course, we all know that the competitive scene isn't very popular.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm still not sure if Sakurai ever intended for tiers to exist, nor did he expect Melee to become as competitive as it has. I can tell you that most people who play the game don't really know about the competitive scene.

I don't think they even thought about tiers and balance too much in melee. They just nerfed the good ones from the original and went on their way.

He wants the game to be casual, he's lowering the laerning curve, he made L-Canceling easier, he mad catching items easier, he took out wavedashing, he said real men play with items. He's not that great.

I honestly don't think it is his active goal is to dumb down the game like you made it sound. I don't know if that is what you intended, but the tone of that statement makes me think that's what you are trying to convey. I also don't see the statement "Real men play with items" as anything more than a throwaway statement. I know TONS of casual players who don't play with items, it's not as if the casual people are synonymous with playing with items.

That said, I think Sakurai doesn't know how to make a competitive game and is just sorta doing his own thing. I think he is sorta trying to do both in his own head, he just isn't really knowledgeable on it. Nintendo isn't really known for making tournament worthy games, so it's understandable that they aren't sure of how to go about making it work casually and competitively.

 

[Cless]

Everyone realizes that the items thing is different in Japanese right? It was just a joke on the translator's part and too many people are taking way too seriously.

 

[AdmantNESS]

he said real men play with items.

Nate Bihldorf said that. I'm sure of it.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Sakurai didn't intend for tiers to exist, he got lucky with the whole competitive thing. And of course, we all know that the competitive scene isn't very popular.

I don't mean any offense to the competitive players by this statement, it's a simple question.

Neither of the previous games were made to be competitive, and Melee turned out as massive as it was, what makes people think Brawl will be designed to be competitive?

To me it just sounds like people want things like the advanced techniques from Melee to be intentionally put into Brawl, and announced on the site. These would be "advanced" in the way that they would be difficult for the average player to just pull off but be built into the game... I mean, I could be wrong and that is not what people want, but a lot of the comments sound rather elitist.

For example, there was a thread earlier today where a tournament smasher was complaining that the game was becoming too much of a party game due to the inclusion of new items and unpredictable (as far as we know) stages. Not all competitive players complain about that, but I don't understand where the complaints come from, especially since all of the gameplay options have yet to be explored.

I expect the 3KO in a row FS to be an option, I certainly hope it is. Sakurai will also add plenty of neutral stages as well just like Melee, and the item switch has already been confirmed. Besides, even if their aren't neutral stages, it wouldn't be hard to make them. I don't doubt that most well-run tournaments would have an issue using an SD card to copy stages across several Wiis.

Other than advanced techniques (some of which have already been found after E for All, although they may be gone by release) that would obviously not be known about until possibly years after the game is released like (like it was with Melee) what else do tournament players need? GCN controller- check, neutral stages/stage builder for more neutral stages- check, item switch- check... and there are sure to be exploits that will become advanced techniques eventually.

Again, this isn't meant to be offensive toward any competitive players, I am just curious about why people think that way (and I know that it's probably a small minority that does... similar to the annoying casuals.). Really, I am all for the game being as competitive as possible with the ability to customize everything entirely, while still keeping the easy to pick up and play interface and all the dynamic stuff like items, unpredictable stages, and wacky modes that way it is a game for everyone. Sakurai is a smart man and I doubt he will screw anyone over.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I don't think they even thought about tiers and balance too much in melee. They just nerfed the good ones from the original and went on their way.

I honestly don't think it is his active goal is to dumb down the game like you made it sound. I don't know if that is what you intended, but the tone of that statement makes me think that's what you are trying to convey. I also don't see the statement "Real men play with items" as anything more than a throwaway statement. I know TONS of casual players who don't play with items, it's not as if the casual people are synonymous with playing with items.

That said, I think Sakurai doesn't know how to make a competitive game and is just sorta doing his own thing. I think he is sorta trying to do both in his own head, he just isn't really knowledgeable on it. Nintendo isn't really known for making tournament worthy games, so it's understandable that they aren't sure of how to go about making it work casually and competitively.

I think his goal is to make the game balanced in a sense of competition. I don't think he wants a really good player, I don't think he wants a really bad player, he wants matches with sudden death and bombs. It's why we don't even know how we're playing against in With Anyone mode, it's why Spectator mode sucks. He wants the game to be a party game.

 

[Dragon Master Luigi]

He's probably adding more characters or stages as we speak... I'm pretty sure Capt. Falcon is being voiced, or Ganondorf is getting his new moves right now or they're already being put as secret....

 

[kashikomarimashita]

I do think the demo really was a demo and the players weren't really done yet. They made the demo to see how people would play the game and how enjoyable it was. There will probably be some improvements to samus and some nerf's to peach.

I agree. They were talking about how difficult it was to put Sonic in the demo, because they wanted to have a 3rd party character in even if rushed. I dont think all the characters will remain the same. While their move set doesnt change, some of the effects likely will. The game is still over 50 days away from the Japanese launch. And it has been even more time since the demo was released. You know the developers are still running tests and tweaking the code.

I too dont really like the idea of Peach dominating. So I pray the neccesary changes will be made. As for Samus, I felt her projectiles were too cheap anyhow. She has probably been given other strengths to compensate. Like Sakurai said, not all the characters can be used in the same way as before.

Good players must always adapt to remain competitive.

 

[The Dragon]

face it, in terms of anything you know nothing hypnotist, let alone how he thinks or what he wants, or what he wants to do with brawl and this whiny/*****y state your in is just plain annoying, no one cares for your self centered opinions anymore, if the game doesn't appeal to you that much go elsewere

 

[The Hypnotist]

face it, in terms of anything you know nothing hypnotist, let alone how he thinks or what he wants, or what he wants to do with brawl and this whiny/*****y state your in is just plain annoying, no one cares for your self centered opinions anymore, if the game doesn't appeal to you that much go elsewere

It's a speculation based board...

 

[MookieRah]

They were talking about how difficult it was to put Sonic in the demo, because they wanted to have a 3rd party character in even if rushed.

I very much doubt Sonic was rushed. I'm pretty sure they had the licensing set up for him pretty early on. Just cause we didn't hear about it till a few months ago it doesn't mean that it was around then he was added.

While their move set doesnt change, some of the effects likely will. The game is still over 50 days away from the Japanese launch. And it has been even more time since the demo was released. You know the developers are still running tests and tweaking the code.

I really doubt that much of the balancing aspects will change much if any from the demo. Like I said in an early post, they have been working on that for a long long time and have a team of their own beta testers. Somewhere along the way prior to E for All they decided on these things. These are pretty major adjustments, and considering how late in development the game is I doubt things will deviate much in the full version. At this point I think they have pretty much shifted focus with getting rid of various glitches, like Sonic's homing spin dash.

As for Samus, I felt her projectiles were too cheap anyhow. She has probably been given other strengths to compensate. Like Sakurai said, not all the characters can be used in the same way as before.

For starters, missiles are far from cheap, especially in casual play. The only instance in which missiles could even be debated as to being overpowered would be in free for alls, but that is such an isolated thing and is a part of having a character focused on ranged attacks. Also, even with basic gameplay mechanics the missiles aren't hard to overcome. I remember swatting missiles down with jabs and stuff in my days as a casual player. Keep in mind that there wasn't any missile canceling either.

@The Hypnotist
I can understand your frustration, but the way you are taking it out on the thread is causing more trouble than good. Try not to be so harsh and post more calmly, that way people would be more open to your opinion.

@The Dragon
There is no need for flaming. You are just as guilty for being overtly opinionated, you are simply on the opposing side of his argument.