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Sakurai: "If we Direct Smash ONLY at The Competitive Players, It Will Have No Future."

Sleek Media

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Name one good project Sakurai has done in the past 3 years, including Smash.
Kid Icarus Uprising. Now it's your turn. Name a bad project he's done in the past 3 years, or since 3 years is a stupid length of time to limit the discussion of a game developer's career, go ahead and start naming any bad projects he's directed. Think carefully before you name any multi-million sellers like Smash.
 

ZeruSlayer

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It's not hard to understand. He is talking about "salty" feelings, which have somehow become somewhat celebrated in competitive circles recently. They are an ugly display of poor sportsmanship. And nothing more. He also sees the users of websites like smashboards and reddit working themselves into a frenzy about how OP Rosalina is, or Diddy is, at the drop of a hat. When the vocal competitive crowd (and certain pros) spends so much energy whining about every possible personal challenge instead of, you know, acting competitive and finding a way to overcome it (we used to call it building a metagame), it sends the message that they aren't actually enjoying the game very much unless they can win the same ease they did in certain previous Smash games. I am sure he is very disappointed to see knee jerk reactions (Mega Man is terrible?!) spread like wildfire until they are the status quo, with only a few outliers actually trying to figure out the depths of these characters which have received more competitive balancing than any other Smash.

There is another angle about how frustrating it can be for newer players to actually get anywhere on the competitive plane, but he's talking about the above.
People get angry when they lose too much or when they feel their loss was out of their control, it's a very humanistic trait. I don't see why Sakurai is attempting to make players feel a certain way by playing Smash 4. Also, he wasn't successful, people still get salty when they lose in Smash 4...it shows they are human, it takes the better man (or woman) to look past that anger and show respect to the opposition, which I think the fgc is all about (ex shaking of the hands after a game). Players temporary anger doesn't mean that they are going to drop a game because of that, especially those who want to get competitive. Sakurai wanted to create a simplistic game where everyone could be on an even playing field. The reality is he turned the game into something overlysimplistic that removed the depth you would get from any fighter (ex. if you play a character for a day in Smash 4, you're more than likely to fully master him/her).

I do agree that the metagame before patching existed was more diverse, it forced players to find ways around what people today find broken. I think the problem is that players have gotten complacent with the fact that fixing a character is as simple as downloading the patch for them. I can see why Diddy is overpowered, he has a very easy combo that can deal 50% damage on majority of the cast due to how little knockback his up air has. Can players play around this? Yes, don't get grabbed or predict DI. Should Diddy be doing that much damage? Probably not, but accidents happen so I guess roll with it or milk it like no tomorrow.

As for this angle you're talking about it's called a learning curve. It's in every game that has an iota of depth in it (ex. any fps game, any fighting game, any trading card game). And it's that learning curve that can inhibit a casual player from becoming competitive. If a casual player was motivated to becoming competitive then they need to put effort into it. I don't mind if Sakurai attempted to make the learning curve less steeper but he went out of his way to eliminating a learning curve entirely. This is why I feel Smash 4 has no competitive value unless competitve players put it among themselves to discover new unintended tech to develop a certain level of skill gap.
 

SmashBro99

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I am partisan on this because although I love the competitive community, Sakurai said that he aimed Smash Bros to be a party game, not a competitive :/
It is a party game...lol party/fighting game

Guys let's make Mario Party competitive too! No items allowed, only certain stages with no hazards??

The game was made as a party game, don't get salty because he didn't cater to the minority kkthx ;) It's a great game and Nintendo made bank with it, qqmoar
 
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LancerStaff

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I don't care what Sakurai says. He's a fool.

All but one percent huh? Not like 35% of GameCube owners bought Melee. Not like every big name reviewer has given it over a 9. Just cause you suck at it, and hate it because of that, doesn't mean everyone else does.

K sure.

Different time periods. Look at it percentages wise. About 10% of Wii owners bought Brawl. 35% bought Melee.
Hah, I knew you were going to bring out that flawed logic. Maybe if Melee was a Wii game it could of came close... But it wasn't. More sales = more sales. No wonder people just laugh at the Melee community, it supports idiotic ideas and people like this.

It's funny... Do you think your legends like Ken like people like you going around spreading hate? No they don't. They'd rather try to improve Melee's image and get along with other Smash players. Heh, didn't your mother tell you to either say something nice or nothing at all?

not competitive doesn't mean casual. not to mention that technically, anyone who's gone on for glory is competitive; or at least they want to be in the moment. a true casual would be like that person in the friend group who never plays video games unless he's with people or something; he's got some crap games on his smartphone and thats about it.
I'm not talking about "true casuals," I'm talking about those who aren't hardcore, who aren't even attempting to go all the way.

@ LancerStaff LancerStaff please quit posting on this. Your replies are Biased, and to a point are cliché false claims (melee is too hard)
It's significantly harder then any other Smash, to the point where it's best players are developing hand issues. Yeah, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Melee is too hard in multiple ways, but the big thing is that all these glitches and junk pervert the game into something it ain't, and that people still want it like this. Sakurai just told you to look somewhere else if you want a game as hardcore as Melee, understand?
 
D

Deleted member

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Kid Icarus Uprising. Now it's your turn. Name a bad project he's done in the past 3 years, or since 3 years is a stupid length of time to limit the discussion of a game developer's career, go ahead and start naming any bad projects he's directed. Think carefully before you name any multi-million sellers like Smash.
Umm... Uprising isn't perfect. It sucks if you are a leftie, it sucks if you hate the humor, and it sucks if cannot just get into that wonderful immersion that allows you to become one with the game. How do I know? I played Uprising, and couldn't wait to get rid of it. It's a well-made game, but I didn't like it because of the reasons I mentioned. That, and Medusa reduced to bit player.

I'm not saying Sakurai is a guy who can do no right, but I hope he understood that saying something like this is going to be criticized.

Though, personally, if he truly cared about the casual gamer, he would've done more than simplify the mechanics and given them Mii Fighters. For example, you can have a decent Adventure Mode that doesn't have fancy cutscenes (a main complaint he had about the Internet in his comment how Smash 4 wouldn't have a true Adventure Mode), which would've been more fun than Smash Tour.
 

ItsChon

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Kid Icarus Uprising. Now it's your turn. Name a bad project he's done in the past 3 years, or since 3 years is a stupid length of time to limit the discussion of a game developer's career, go ahead and start naming any bad projects he's directed. Think carefully before you name any multi-million sellers like Smash.
Kid Icarus sucked bro. ESPECIALLY if you're a leftie. Game was freaking impossible than.

Whatever, I'm done with this thread. Clogging up my alert bar. It's just one massive circlejerk.
 

brodouble

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Hah, I knew you were going to bring out that flawed logic. Maybe if Melee was a Wii game it could of came close... But it wasn't. More sales = more sales. No wonder people just laugh at the Melee community, it supports idiotic ideas and people like this.

It's funny... Do you think your legends like Ken like people like you going around spreading hate? No they don't. They'd rather try to improve Melee's image and get along with other Smash players. Heh, didn't your mother tell you to either say something nice or nothing at all?



I'm not talking about "true casuals," I'm talking about those who aren't hardcore, who aren't even attempting to go all the way.



It's significantly harder then any other Smash, to the point where it's best players are developing hand issues. Yeah, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Melee is too hard in multiple ways, but the big thing is that all these glitches and junk pervert the game into something it ain't, and that people still want it like this. Sakurai just told you to look somewhere else if you want a game as hardcore as Melee, understand?

Hah, I knew you were going to bring out that flawed logic. Maybe if Melee was a Wii game it could of came close... But it wasn't. More sales = more sales. No wonder people just laugh at the Melee community, it supports idiotic ideas and people like this.

It's funny... Do you think your legends like Ken like people like you going around spreading hate? No they don't. They'd rather try to improve Melee's image and get along with other Smash players. Heh, didn't your mother tell you to either say something nice or nothing at all?



I'm not talking about "true casuals," I'm talking about those who aren't hardcore, who aren't even attempting to go all the way.



It's significantly harder then any other Smash, to the point where it's best players are developing hand issues. Yeah, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Melee is too hard in multiple ways, but the big thing is that all these glitches and junk pervert the game into something it ain't, and that people still want it like this. Sakurai just told you to look somewhere else if you want a game as hardcore as Melee, understand?
lol, you keep backtracking on your own words. casuals aren't signing up on smashboards, end of story.

and melee isnt hard unless you want to play competitively. i swear to god, this guy, lol...plz stop trying so hard. that game can be played anyway you want to suit your needs. unless moving around is what you consider difficult. game was flawless when it came out, critically, fan based, etc. no one thought it was hard lol...if sakurai had never said that, you yourself would have no thoughts about it. you're just repeating tired old rhetoric.
 
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smashbroskilla

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Kid Icarus Uprising. Now it's your turn. Name a bad project he's done in the past 3 years, or since 3 years is a stupid length of time to limit the discussion of a game developer's career, go ahead and start naming any bad projects he's directed. Think carefully before you name any multi-million sellers like Smash.
Just because you sell a ton of units doesn't mean it's good for the consumer. Nintendo is in the business of making money so in their eyes it's good. Britney Spears sells millions of copies of her albums. Does that make her music good? It's all relative to personal opinion. You couldn't pay me cash money to sit down and listen to top40 music but millions of others think her music is awesome. Brawl sold more copies than melee. I promise you a huge chunk of those sales were people that owned melee and thought they were buying the next melee. Do you know multiple people that have a save file on their wii with brawl that goes past 5 hours of playtime? I don't. Mine collects dust.

I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a washed up game developer like the guy you originally quoted but I think his time has come to leave the series. I still play the heck out of smash 4 and played it until 3am last night. I'm not saying I hate the guy for this version of smash but he acts like he has to cater to casuals and party game'esque vibe. What's the worst that can happen if he made it slightly more competetive? Are casuals across the globe going to raise their pichforks and torches and come charging into Japan to burn down Nintendo? Does he think some casual in middle America who will never know about these forums, care about tournaments, or ever play against another human player would give two sh*ts if something like wavedashing were in the game? Of course he wouldn't so I don't know what Sakurai is so deathly afraid of. It's ridiculous. Let the man go and have someone lead the series that can aim the next smash at casuals and make the melee elitists happy at the same time. It isn't rocket science.
 
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BobVance_

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Lol when someone resorts to "well this sold a lot or more than this" you know they're really grasping. Wii's install base was huge and Brawl's online was like dead a few months after it came out. Brawl sucked, get over it. Jumping in that game gives you enough time before you land to take naps.

Smash 4? Better, but still boring in 1vs1. People online just run away or roll around, and the punishment window for moves in this game is like .5seconds. It's clear he was def trying to give crappy players the upper hand by making the shield borderline unbreakable and rolls so safe. As a result, matches are not very exciting or interesting...Just a grab fest.
 
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ZeruSlayer

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Just because you sell a ton of units doesn't mean it's good for the consumer. Nintendo is in the business of making money so in their eyes it's good. Britney Spears sells millions of copies of her albums. Does that make her music good? It's all relative to personal opinion. You couldn't pay me cash money to sit down and listen to top40 music but millions of others think her music is awesome. Brawl sold more copies than melee. I promise you a huge chunk of those sales were people that owned melee and thought they were buying the next melee. Do you know multiple people that have a save file on their wii with brawl that goes past 5 hours of playtime? I don't. Mine collects dust.

I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a washed up game developer like the guy you originally quoted but I think his time has come to leave the series. I still play the heck out of smash 4 and played it until 3am last night. I'm not saying I hate the guy for this version of smash but he acts like he has to cater to casuals and party game'esque vibe. What's the worst that can happen if he made it slightly more competetive? Are casuals across the globe going to raise their pichforks and torches and come charging into Japan to burn down Nintendo? Does he think some casual in middle America who will never know about these forums, care about tournaments, or ever play against another human player would give two sh*ts if something like wavedashing were in the game? Of course he wouldn't so I don't know what Sakurai is so deathly afraid of. It's ridiculous. Let the man go and have someone lead the series that can aim the next smash at casuals and make the melee elitists happy at the same time. It isn't rocket science.
All of this! I don't hate Sakurai as a game developer; he's the freaking creator of Smash Bros. so his creativity speaks volumes, but as a director his vision and how he acts towards certain issues is irksome. I rather him play a supportive role as a developer instead of take a lead role in the next Smash, what I want the most is change that benefits both sides of the spectrum (competitive and casual) and I feel Sakurai is too biased (mainly in favor of the casual side) to see that through.
 

Vaidya

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are you even trying to hide the fact that you're a little girl who's only means of social attention is acting like a dweeb here? make some friends homie, you wont need to act up on a smash brothers forum.
"homie" XDDD lol I laugh when I see a nerd try to act cool. just stop lmao
 

LimitCrown

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Just because you sell a ton of units doesn't mean it's good for the consumer. Nintendo is in the business of making money so in their eyes it's good. Britney Spears sells millions of copies of her albums. Does that make her music good? It's all relative to personal opinion. You couldn't pay me cash money to sit down and listen to top40 music but millions of others think her music is awesome. Brawl sold more copies than melee. I promise you a huge chunk of those sales were people that owned melee and thought they were buying the next melee. Do you know multiple people that have a save file on their wii with brawl that goes past 5 hours of playtime? I don't. Mine collects dust.

I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a washed up game developer like the guy you originally quoted but I think his time has come to leave the series. I still play the heck out of smash 4 and played it until 3am last night. I'm not saying I hate the guy for this version of smash but he acts like he has to cater to casuals and party game'esque vibe. What's the worst that can happen if he made it slightly more competetive? Are casuals across the globe going to raise their pichforks and torches and come charging into Japan to burn down Nintendo? Does he think some casual in middle America who will never know about these forums, care about tournaments, or ever play against another human player would give two sh*ts if something like wavedashing were in the game? Of course he wouldn't so I don't know what Sakurai is so deathly afraid of. It's ridiculous. Let the man go and have someone lead the series that can aim the next smash at casuals and make the melee elitists happy at the same time. It isn't rocket science.
However, some of those who want the game to be more competitive only want the game to be like Melee. Why should another game be like Melee instead of its own game?
 
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brodouble

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"homie" XDDD lol I laugh when I see a nerd try to act cool. just stop lmao
lol the fact that thats your idea of acting cool makes it pretty obvious that you are a virgin and prob socially awkward. u mad?
 
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DaRkJaWs

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News flash to melee fanboys: when a move set is put into the game, it's not supposed to be useless to the point of it never being used...ie rolling. Smash 4 corrects for a lot of problems brawl and especially melee had, in that moves particular to specific characters are now usable moves. And rolling should not be easily punishable, no matter how badly you cry and scream about it being a noob move.
 

smashbroskilla

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However, some of those who want the game to be more competitive only want the game to be like Melee. Why should another game be like Melee instead of its own game?
Melee had some great traits to it but I don't want a melee 2.0. I want a brand new game that takes all the best elements from every version and makes it a great game.
 

brodouble

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News flash: sm4sh largely does that.
not really. you go online and it's very boring and defensive based and no one wants to actually fight. they just roll around and shield and so you grab them, deliver some ass whooping, and the cycle repeats. boring, there's no options.
 

Sleek Media

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Don't have time to quote the four or so people who quoted me, but it can be summed up with:

Kid Icarus was bad because there are no left-handed controls.
Am I missing something here? What was the left handed control option for Melee? Goldeneye? Super Mario Bros? Actually, my comparison is flawed because KIU does have multiple left handed control options, including using the CPP if you don't like reversing the layout.

Sakurai isn't absolutely terrible, but he should leave Smash.
No, you're terrible and should leave Smash. It's not that Sakurai doesn't get it. You don't get it. Smash Bros is a game for everyone. You pick it up, you learn the controls once, and the rest is just figuring out how you and your friends enjoy the game the most. Sakurai even included advanced mechanics like teching and multiple getup options (which even games like SSFIV lack) to give the game enough depth to be fun for people like you. Of course, the items, stages, modes, and "bad" characters you ignore exist for a reason, and the reason is that many, many people enjoy them in much greater number than that of the FGC. There's nothing new in the interview. Sakurai has been saying that sort of thing for years.

Keep in mind that Sakurai did try to leave the series twice already. It was Iwata who kept pulling him back in for Brawl and Smash 4. What makes you think that Smash would suddenly become ultra hardcore and competitive if Sakurai left? Iwata isn't going to hire someone like Ono. He's going to hire someone like Sakurai. Smash 4 isn't just Sakurai's vision - it's Nintendo's vision. Accept reality and stop whining all the time.
 

brodouble

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Don't have time to quote the four or so people who quoted me, but it can be summed up with:



Am I missing something here? What was the left handed control option for Melee? Goldeneye? Super Mario Bros? Actually, my comparison is flawed because KIU does have multiple left handed control options, including using the CPP if you don't like reversing the layout.



No, you're terrible and should leave Smash. It's not that Sakurai doesn't get it. You don't get it. Smash Bros is a game for everyone. You pick it up, you learn the controls once, and the rest is just figuring out how you and your friends enjoy the game the most. Sakurai even included advanced mechanics like teching and multiple getup options (which even games like SSFIV lack) to give the game enough depth to be fun for people like you. Of course, the items, stages, modes, and "bad" characters you ignore exist for a reason, and the reason is that many, many people enjoy them in much greater number than that of the FGC. There's nothing new in the interview. Sakurai has been saying that sort of thing for years.

Keep in mind that Sakurai did try to leave the series twice already. It was Iwata who kept pulling him back in for Brawl and Smash 4. What makes you think that Smash would suddenly become ultra hardcore and competitive if Sakurai left? Iwata isn't going to hire someone like Ono. He's going to hire someone like Sakurai. Smash 4 isn't just Sakurai's vision - it's Nintendo's vision. Accept reality and stop whining all the time.
yeahh, lots of games are games for "Everyone." doesn't mean they have to be poopy in their mechanics.
 

tbtechwiz

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Funny, Sakurai says to go somewhere else if it isn't competitive enough for you. Obviously boycotting Smash won't do much though.



Sakurai considers Melee to be a mistake in two ways: That the mechanics support competitive over casual play, and that it's much too hard. I just repeated what he said.

All but the one percent agree. You're an outlier looking for something in a game that was never supposed to be there.

And Kirby and Kid Icarus trash? Not in a million years. Hah, it's Melee-aligned people like yourself that make people hostile and disrespective of Melee fans in general. Maybe if you idiots wouldn't of ruined it for everybody, Sakurai would of listened even a little bit.



He's discussed the issue as he puts it at length in other articles. I don't expect him to re-explain himself completely every time it's asked. It largely comes down to frustrations with the controls.



Brawl outsold Melee. 12 mill > 9 mill.



Totally not making people disrespect Melee fans.

so that smash dies competitively and other games take over
 

Codo Sapien

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The nice thing is we're playing by new rules.

Old rules = "If you don't like the game, tough."
New rules = If you don't like the game, make Project M."
 
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LimitCrown

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Melee had some great traits to it but I don't want a melee 2.0. I want a brand new game that takes all the best elements from every version and makes it a great game.
Most of Melee's mechanics favored certain types of fighters, so bringing those mechanics back wouldn't really make the game more "competitive".
 

ZeruSlayer

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Sakurai even included advanced mechanics like teching and multiple getup options (which even games like SSFIV lack) to give the game enough depth to be fun for people like you.
Firstly, teching is not even an advanced mechanic. You press the shield button before you land. There's nothing complicated about that. It's a tech, not an overly simplistic mechanic since nobody has a perfect tech rate but it's not advanced. Also refrain from comparing mechanics of completely different games because that's hardly comparisons to begin with. Smash bros. is a crazy game where there are many different players on the screen that and if you want to take into consideration ai characters (assist trophies, pokemon, and stage hazards) you need to have some form of defense which is why it would be silly to have a hold back to block mechanic or to eliminate the option of rolling when you are knocked down so I don't see where you're going with depth here (it feels like you're throwing the word in because I've been using it).

What makes you think that Smash would suddenly become ultra hardcore and competitive if Sakurai left?
You already said it yourself, Sakurai has always acted the way he is now, which is why I fail to believe he intended to have wavedashing in Melee in the first place. But it's because of his own personal bias that I know if he stays as director there will never be a balance between competitive and casual. So to answer your question, better anyone than him. I don't know who could fill Sakurai's shoes which is why I would prefer he play a supportive role in game development instead of being a director if another game is planned but who knows; the next installment might be a worse version of Smash 4, it might be a better version of Smash 4...time will tell.

Smash 4 isn't just Sakurai's vision - it's Nintendo's vision.
Really now? Prove it. I know Smash 4 is Sakurai's vision because he is the director. He's also the person who does interviews like this one to give behind the scenes info of the game and its development. Nintendo is a business, they don't care about the quality of a game as long as it makes money. It is for that reason Sakurai is suckered into making more Smash games than intended (if it ain't broke, don't fix it logic) and it is for that reason Smash 4 was even made, to support their console that made piss poor sales due to bad advertising and failed specs for this generation.

What is Smash 4 to you? If you consider it a party game, why care about balance? As a party game Smash 4 is perfect. If that's what you believe you can ignore my post. If you feel that Smash 4 is a fighter then I implore you to help me understand where you're coming from because it feels you aren't even sure what Smash 4 is.
 

LimitCrown

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@ LancerStaff LancerStaff Sakurai didn't simply say "If you want a game similar to melee, go away."

He said "If you want a competitive game, go away."
Incorrect. Sakurai said that if you wanted a game that was more suited for competitive players, other fighting games would be better for that. Also, in the context of that quote, he is taking about games that require a lot of technical skill. You're taking his statements out of context.
 

ZeruSlayer

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Incorrect. Sakurai said that if you wanted a game that was more suited for competitive players, other fighting games would be better for that. Also, in the context of that quote, he is taking about games that require a lot of technical skill. You're taking his statements out of context.
...you do realize that's the exact same way as saying to go find a new game if you're looking for a more competitive game (Sakurai implying that the game doesn't even have much competitiveness in it, and he's right) . So MudkipUniverse is correct to be thinking the way he does but he might be blowing it out of proportion a little.
 

MudkipUniverse

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Incorrect. Sakurai said that if you wanted a game that was more suited for competitive players, other fighting games would be better for that. Also, in the context of that quote, he is taking about games that require a lot of technical skill. You're taking his statements out of context.
"Mmm. Personally, I feel that if you want to play a fighting game seriously, there are other competitive fighting games that are more suited to that, and people like that could have fun playing those.

That was a direct quote. To be "competitive" doesn't mean to be technical.

Which guess what? Technical can also mean how deep the game is. which is better if the game is more deep.
 

Th3 Ice King

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I don't think the translation error changes anything. Also, The smash community already knew how he feels so I don't understand why everyone is getting butt hurt about it. Melee players are going to continue to play Melee and that is the way it should be. A game replacement is unnecessary when the game doesn't need to be changed. As much as I respect his views, I completely disagree with them. Keep in mind Sakurai has no involvement with the development of competitive melee. The community built itself and without a relationship to Sakurai. I don't see why everyone feels the need to have his blessing, it seems like people some some "daddy" issues and need his approval to justify their involvement with Melee. I say who cares. Melee and its community has accomplished so much and I don't forsee anything but growth. I know I will be doing my part to help.
 
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LimitCrown

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"Mmm. Personally, I feel that if you want to play a fighting game seriously, there are other competitive fighting games that are more suited to that, and people like that could have fun playing those.

That was a direct quote. To be "competitive" doesn't mean to be technical.

Which guess what? Technical can also mean how deep the game is. which is better if the game is more deep.
Except, his next statements are ones where he talks about things like technical skill. Also, you paraphased his statement in a way that changed its meaning to be more negative.

Sakurai isn't obligated to cater solely to a comparatively small group of people. Also, putting skill barriers or more options in a game won't mean that the game becomes more deep.
 

James N.

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For Glory is in because Nintendo wanted the game to be presented as if it had a competitive side, not Sakurai.

Also, him saying a game that's focused only on competitveness dying is just wrong lol. PM is thriving and it isint even an official game.
Yeah but PM is completely free. If people had to pay for PM it would not have taken off as fast as it did. (for purposes of argument, pretend it would be legal to sell PM)
 
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