Sakurai: "If we Direct Smash ONLY at The Competitive Players, It Will Have No Future."

[drsusredfish]

Hitting a shield don't effect that much. Let's be honest, not having to press L after every aerial would do a good deal in preventing arthritis in it's players.

I play zelda. hiting a sweetspot kick makes her pause mid air that pause can make you miss an L-cancel easily. any air move that has some type of hit lag effects L-canceling. Things that are just plain fast are definitely affected by a shield hit like a drill shine. These are just a few cases of many.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

Let's be honest, not having to press L after every aerial would do a good deal in preventing arthritis in it's players.

Let's be honest, If you think pressing one button (not even sequential) at certain points during a game as arthritis inducing then players shouldn't play any games in general because they all risk developing arthritis...

 

[LancerStaff]

I play zelda. hiting a sweetspot kick makes her pause mid air that pause can make you miss an L-cancel easily. any air move that has some type of hit lag effects L-canceling. Things that are just plain fast are definitely affected by a shield hit like a drill shine. These are just a few cases of many.

Just a few. And some even give you enough time to react to hitting the shield.

Let's be honest, If you think pressing one button (not even sequential) at certain points during a game as arthritis inducing then players shouldn't play any games in general because they all risk developing arthritis...

Totally helps M2K's hands, amirite?

 

[ZeruSlayer]

Totally helps M2K's hands, amirite?

That is a terrible example. As a health science student I don't know whether to laugh or pity your interpretation of arthritis. Statistically speaking you find arthritis mainly in late adults to older adults (mid 50s and higher) due to the bodies bones losing calcium density which is common with old age and puts them at higher risk of experiencing musculoskeletal problems. Arthritis can be prevented mainly through exercise and even if you're playing a game that can cause joint pain overtime (almost any game if you play it nonstop without caring for yourself) you can simply just take a break or if you can't (tournament setting), just massage your hands.

I was introduced to the Smash scene in 2008 and even before I did, I knew the name M2K. So he could've been a part of the Smash competitive scene from the start and I can understand how he could've developed arthritis at an early age because he participates in a ton of tournaments, his main focus was Melee and he mastered all the tech in it. So are you saying that people who master Melee will develop arthritis? I have done everything from wavedaashing to moonwalking and I'm completely fine. The only time I do experience joint pain is when I play for hours on end, but does that mean I have arthritis? No, so I fail to see what point you are trying to make about complicated tech and arthritis.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Melee can makes hands sore, duh. So can any video game. It's all about moderation and proper health as the poster above clearly explains.

Whenever I practice it's usually in one to two hour bursts to keep my hands healthy and relaxed. Afterwards I usually chill out for a bit because I don't want to overwork them. Given my fingers have hypertension (I believe? I think that's what it is...) I kind of have to, but I never go super hard for a long time. Tech skill drills can obviously hurt but if it ever gets to that point it's generally a good idea to stop. In tournament it's a bit more difficult which is why I advise a secondary that is less difficult on your hands.

I also play Falco instead of Fox so that might contribute a LITTLE bit too,

 

[LancerStaff]

That is a terrible example. As a health science student I don't know whether to laugh or pity your interpretation of arthritis. Statistically speaking you find arthritis mainly in late adults to older adults (mid 50s and higher) due to the bodies bones losing calcium density which is common with old age and puts them at higher risk of experiencing musculoskeletal problems. Arthritis can be prevented mainly through exercise and even if you're playing a game that can cause joint pain overtime (almost any game if you play it nonstop without caring for yourself) you can simply just take a break or if you can't (tournament setting), just massage your hands.

I was introduced to the Smash scene in 2008 and even before I did, I knew the name M2K. So he could've been a part of the Smash competitive scene from the start and I can understand how he could've developed arthritis at an early age because he participates in a ton of tournaments, his main focus was Melee and he mastered all the tech in it. So are you saying that people who master Melee will develop arthritis? I have done everything from wavedaashing to moonwalking and I'm completely fine. The only time I do experience joint pain is when I play for hours on end, but does that mean I have arthritis? No, so I fail to see what point you are trying to make about complicated tech and arthritis.

Arthritis, tendonwhatywhat, yadda yadda yadda... For the average Joe like me it's a general term for hand problems. My point is that extra button imputs for extra button imputs doesn't help anybody, and contributes to harmful developments in your hands.

Yaknow, let's make it so you have to press A twice really fast to do attacks at full power. Because tech skillz are totes cool dude.

Really, people would laugh at L-canceling if it was introduced in SSB4. Useless, needless imputs have no place.

 

[drsusredfish]

Perfect shielding is not possible to do 100% of the time neither is it necessary to use very frequently in higher-level play. Also, if shielding allowed you to act immediately afterwards, I'm sure that many people would complain more about defensive options being overpowered. Besides, you have the option to dodge and shielding isn't always the best solution.

100% perfect shielding can be done just as often as 100% L-canceling. These are things that completely rely on the players skill. High level players don't succeed at every L-cancel either.

perfect shielding is always better than dodging since there is basically no cool down time for the defenders next action.

giving a difficulty level to each technique doesn't mean a player can't use it when ever the situation arises.

That being said, the point of my satirical comment was to point out that perfect shielding can be considered an unnecessary skill barrier to get a more favorable outcome. so the idea that L-canceling is gone because of skill barrier isn't a good reason to get rid of it. and again casuals gona casual.

You don't need to shield to stop your running every time nor do you need to run all of the time in the game.

you missed an important part of that example. In that example i don't want another option i want to stop in place. of course you can do something other than stopping or running but in the situation I stated, as far as I know, there is only one way to safely stop in place after a run and that's to shield. you could probably falcon punch, shine, dancing blade or a whole myriad of other unsafe attacks after a run to stop in place but i'm sure you know things like that aren't what i'm talking about.(shiek has that b-reverse cancel thing thats good but i digress). P:M has 3 ways to do the same thing with different options after all of them and all characters can use it. you can shield, crouch, or jump and wave land in place.

That being said all that's not even the point of the satire. the point was to point out in your comment that they can adjust landing lag on moves to negate the use of L-canceling. in that respect they can also adjust run animations so the quickest stop in place action after a run isn't shield. That change would significantly affect how people play or want to play the game.

again casuals don't care about L-canceling so they are unaffected by it's absence.

Perfect pivoting is not incredibly useful, it's very situational, and it isn't like not using the technique puts you at a huge disadvantage. It was also present in the previous games.

Doesn't change that its an advanced move with a skill barrier that has some use however small. Wave dashing in melee was thought to be inconsequential to the game too when it was being developed.

Your comparisons are flawed, and your parodies of my argument doesn't make sense when all of the techniques that you listed are not required to be used all of the time like L-canceling was nor do either of them overshadow another action like wavedashing did.

L-canceling is not required to play casually which this a discussion about since casuals are why its gone.

Lcanceling is way more important than wavedashing thats why smash 64 can still be fun to this day. If smash 4 were kinda like smash64 in that respect smash4 would be a way better game.

My comparisons weren't meant to be read at face value that's why they are satire. You are supposed to take what i say compare it to what its parodying and see what is comparable. That comparison reveals what ideas are flawed. I don't know maybe my satire was a little out there but i think I've explained them now.

In Smash 4, it's safer to not attack someone who uses their shield.

Do you think that makes this a good game?

 

[ZeruSlayer]

Yaknow, let's make it so you have to press A twice really fast to do attacks at full power. Because tech skillz are totes cool dude.

Adding more options prevents a fighting game from being flat and boring, Smash 4 is no exception. Why do you think competitive players are trying to find ways of "breaking" the game? So it adds some form of depth and complexity in a game that is completely flat and overlysimplistic.

Really, people would laugh at L-canceling if it was introduced in SSB4. Useless, needless imputs have no place.

I don't even care about L-cancelling. If the developers got aerials right in the first place, nobody would be asking for it. The end lag on aerials is atrocious. Not even 6 hours ago, I was watching a Smash 4 tournament on Twitch and some people were complaining about the end lag on aerials and then we have senpai D1 himself acknowledging that the end lag on aerials makes it easy for opponents to shield and grab...what was his response? "Just crossup the opponent." So if your only options are to running grab and risk getting punished, dash attack and risk getting punished (if you aren't ZSS), use an aerial and risk getting punished (if not via crossup), or cross up and put yourself in a different position...the neutral game in Smash 4 is messed up (Defensive players benefit tremendously from Smash 4's mechanics. What's the point of going offensive unless that's the only option your character has?). Nobody would be asking for new inputs if the game was fundamentally balanced in the first place.

 

[LimitCrown]

100% perfect shielding can be done just as often as 100% L-canceling. These are things that completely rely on the players skill. High level players don't succeed at every L-cancel either.

perfect shielding is always better than dodging since there is basically no cool down time for the defenders next action.

giving a difficulty level to each technique doesn't mean a player can't use it when ever the situation arises.

That being said, the point of my satirical comment was to point out that perfect shielding can be considered an unnecessary skill barrier to get a more favorable outcome. so the idea that L-canceling is gone because of skill barrier isn't a good reason to get rid of it. and again casuals gona casual.

Perfect shielding is not always the best solution. You can't perfect shield every part of an attack that hits multiple times, and perfect shielding doesn't defend you against blocking. Also, perfect shielding's main benefit is that you don't take any shield damage or shield stun, but in Smash 4, most attacks aren't safe on shield. You also can't consistently predict when exactly when an opponent will attack you and the time frame for perfect shielding is more strict.

you missed an important part of that example. In that example i don't want another option i want to stop in place. of course you can do something other than stopping or running but in the situation I stated, as far as I know, there is only one way to safely stop in place after a run and that's to shield. you could probably falcon punch, shine, dancing blade or a whole myriad of other unsafe attacks after a run to stop in place but i'm sure you know things like that aren't what i'm talking about.(shiek has that b-reverse cancel thing thats good but i digress). P:M has 3 ways to do the same thing with different options after all of them and all characters can use it. you can shield, crouch, or jump and wave land in place.

That being said all that's not even the point of the satire. the point was to point out in your comment that they can adjust landing lag on moves to negate the use of L-canceling. in that respect they can also adjust run animations so the quickest stop in place action after a run isn't shield. That change would significantly affect how people play or want to play the game.

again casuals don't care about L-canceling so they are unaffected by it's absence.

You could jump to stop yourself from running or you could have walked so that you could act immediately without needing to shield. You aren't forced to shield to stop yourself while running nor is it best to always run from or toward an opponent unlike L-cancelling. Those who play Melee without using L-cancelling or not being able to use it consistently enough will be at a great disadvantage when battling those that do especially since, as I said before, there isn't a reason to not L-cancel. Also, as I said before, wavedashing completely overshadowed walking as a movement option which isn't good.

Doesn't change that its an advanced move with a skill barrier that has some use however small. Wave dashing in melee was thought to be inconsequential to the game too when it was being developed.

Perfect pivoting was in Brawl, yet it wasn't used that much at all. It can't do anything that walking and attacking can't do, and it is very similar to dash-dancing which isn't used that much either.

L-canceling is not required to play casually which this a discussion about since casuals are why its gone.

Lcanceling is way more important than wavedashing thats why smash 64 can still be fun to this day. If smash 4 were kinda like smash64 in that respect smash4 would be a way better game.

My comparisons weren't meant to be read at face value that's why they are satire. You are supposed to take what i say compare it to what its parodying and see what is comparable. That comparison reveals what ideas are flawed. I don't know maybe my satire was a little out there but i think I've explained them now.

In Smash 64, Z-cancelling completely negated the point of having landing lag on air attacks, so even in that game it wasn't a good mechanic. The defensive options in Smash 64 also also not good in comparison.

Do you think that makes this a good game?

In Smash 4, the opponent is forced to stay in the shield for a few more frames. You have more time to do whatever you want. You can't recklessly attack someone while they're shielding.

 

[Sleek Media]

There's something fundamentally wrong with making imputs easier? Do people actually value difficult imputs in Smash of all things? Look somewhere else for tech skill, Smash wasn't ever supposed to have it in any significant way. Look at Super Metroid, the Melee of competitive speedrunning. People call it antiquated for having difficult imputs for simple actions, same as Melee. Difference is that people veiw it as a legitimate complaint over there. Instead of walking two steps then running for a quick spinespark, why couldn't they of just increased the acceleration? Instead of tapping L when running to go faster, couldn't they just make run faster? It goes on and on and on... People just accept them as blemishes on an otherwise perfect game.

I love Super Metroid, and had even done my own speed runs before I even heard the term, but I've never heard these complaints. I know about the "aiming up and down speed" glitch, along with a number of other glitches the game had, though. It's obviously not something the developers added in purposely. The game was made in 1993. They had absolutely no idea that people would be tearing the game down frame by frame in emulators 10 years later for TAS speed runs. It doesn't blemish the game at all. Nobody even noticed it until TAS speedruns became a thing because it was so subtle. Same thing with the two step shinespark. Games are defined by their rules. When you discover a bug or glitch and use it to break the rules of the game, it should be obvious that the quality of the experience will decrease. Doesn't matter whether it's Metroid, Smash, or any other game. If you want to break the rules and get the short shinespark, have fun counting your steps. If you want to break the rules and move while retaining the ability to do a forward smash, have fun mashing your gamecube controller into submission. That's all there is to it. There will always be people who delight in "pushing" or "breaking" the game. It's your choice whether you want to play with them or not.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Adding more options prevents a fighting game from being flat and boring, Smash 4 is no exception. Why do you think competitive players are trying to find ways of "breaking" the game? So it adds some form of depth and complexity in a game that is completely flat and overlysimplistic.



I don't even care about L-cancelling. If the developers got aerials right in the first place, nobody would be asking for it. The end lag on aerials is atrocious. Not even 6 hours ago, I was watching a Smash 4 tournament on Twitch and some people were complaining about the end lag on aerials and then we have senpai D1 himself acknowledging that the end lag on aerials makes it easy for opponents to shield and grab...what was his response? "Just crossup the opponent." So if your only options are to running grab and risk getting punished, dash attack and risk getting punished (if you aren't ZSS), use an aerial and risk getting punished (if not via crossup), or cross up and put yourself in a different position...the neutral game in Smash 4 is messed up (Defensive players benefit tremendously from Smash 4's mechanics. What's the point of going offensive unless that's the only option your character has?). Nobody would be asking for new inputs if the game was fundamentally balanced in the first place.

You know it's a highly defensive game when you can't even fair or bair with most of the cast without getting punished. The air game is almost nonexistent. I might throw out like 2 fair attacks with Captain Falcon the whole entire match. Unless I'm doing a fair, dair, bair on my first jump there's no way I'm attempting to do it on my second jump. I'll get punished every single time. The air offensive in this game almost doesn't exist.

 

[Kitsune91]

I honestly think he is just trolling everyone at this point..

 

[ClarenceHingleberg]

I wouldn't call it dumbed down even. It's a heck of a lot easier on the hands and the design is more balanced.



There's something fundamentally wrong with making imputs easier? Do people actually value difficult imputs in Smash of all things? Look somewhere else for tech skill, Smash wasn't ever supposed to have it in any significant way. Look at Super Metroid, the Melee of competitive speedrunning. People call it antiquated for having difficult imputs for simple actions, same as Melee. Difference is that people veiw it as a legitimate complaint over there. Instead of walking two steps then running for a quick spinespark, why couldn't they of just increased the acceleration? Instead of tapping L when running to go faster, couldn't they just make run faster? It goes on and on and on... People just accept them as blemishes on an otherwise perfect game.

Now now, before you compare my examples to L-canceling, these don't make wide changes to the game. They bridge a few gaps and maybe let you skip a minor boss or two, and you could skip a few already. And everybody honestly thinks the game would be better off if it were easier. Most "techs" in Smash override other options almost entirely, and rather then create more options it just randomly unbalances and unsimplifies the game.



Hitting a shield don't effect that much. Let's be honest, not having to press L after every aerial would do a good deal in preventing arthritis in it's players.

er...What complex inputs does Smash ever have? You're talking to someone who can barely finish a combo on Marvel vs Capcom 3 and I'd say Smash is like the easiest fighting game I've ever played. It's literally as basic as it gets...And isn't L canceling literally just tapping the L button as you land? I mean why are you concerned about some of those things? Not like anyone cared with 4 player and items.

I don't know man I think you're exaggerating just a tad here lol

 

[LancerStaff]

Adding more options prevents a fighting game from being flat and boring, Smash 4 is no exception. Why do you think competitive players are trying to find ways of "breaking" the game? So it adds some form of depth and complexity in a game that is completely flat and overlysimplistic.



I don't even care about L-cancelling. If the developers got aerials right in the first place, nobody would be asking for it. The end lag on aerials is atrocious. Not even 6 hours ago, I was watching a Smash 4 tournament on Twitch and some people were complaining about the end lag on aerials and then we have senpai D1 himself acknowledging that the end lag on aerials makes it easy for opponents to shield and grab...what was his response? "Just crossup the opponent." So if your only options are to running grab and risk getting punished, dash attack and risk getting punished (if you aren't ZSS), use an aerial and risk getting punished (if not via crossup), or cross up and put yourself in a different position...the neutral game in Smash 4 is messed up (Defensive players benefit tremendously from Smash 4's mechanics. What's the point of going offensive unless that's the only option your character has?). Nobody would be asking for new inputs if the game was fundamentally balanced in the first place.

There's a pretty big difference between adding options and just giving you better options.

I've already explained that "free" aerials unbalances the game. I'll go again, I suppose.

Little Mac. How do you balance him for both casual and competitive play with "free" aerials being so rampant? Give him more power? More speed? Nope, newbies have enough trouble with him as-is. This game isn't just for competitives, yaknow. Give him good aerials? No, that just ruins his uniqueness.

And let's be honest here, when all the best characters in Melee have roughly the same architecture, glass cannon of various degrees, you know there's something wrong. PM ain't much better.

I love Super Metroid, and had even done my own speed runs before I even heard the term, but I've never heard these complaints. I know about the "aiming up and down speed" glitch, along with a number of other glitches the game had, though. It's obviously not something the developers added in purposely. The game was made in 1993. They had absolutely no idea that people would be tearing the game down frame by frame in emulators 10 years later for TAS speed runs. It doesn't blemish the game at all. Nobody even noticed it until TAS speedruns became a thing because it was so subtle. Same thing with the two step shinespark. Games are defined by their rules. When you discover a bug or glitch and use it to break the rules of the game, it should be obvious that the quality of the experience will decrease. Doesn't matter whether it's Metroid, Smash, or any other game. If you want to break the rules and get the short shinespark, have fun counting your steps. If you want to break the rules and move while retaining the ability to do a forward smash, have fun mashing your gamecube controller into submission. That's all there is to it. There will always be people who delight in "pushing" or "breaking" the game. It's your choice whether you want to play with them or not.

Oh, the complaints are there. Just not near as frequent as they are over here. But really, do you think SM players would be upset if you removed the "tech skill" from the game? Compare PM, where people throw hissy-fits if you even bring up the idea of automatic L-canceling.

My choice... I want to win. If the developers actually cared, they'd make it simple to do these things. If the best players can cope with these options, why not let even the worst players use 'em? And why force the best players to do these imputs? What's gained from it? Nothing, that's what. It's just tedious, plain and simple. I understand that SM couldn't of possibly intergrated stuff like that because it's so old, and how fast you gain a spinespark and the like don't make much of a difference in a completely new game.

I'm forced to do stupid imputs if I want to win, and it's stupid that people find any value in performing these imputs.

er...What complex inputs does Smash ever have? You're talking to someone who can barely finish a combo on Marvel vs Capcom 3 and I'd say Smash is like the easiest fighting game I've ever played. It's literally as basic as it gets...And isn't L canceling literally just tapping the L button as you land? I mean why are you concerned about some of those things? Not like anyone cared with 4 player and items.

I don't know man I think you're exaggerating just a tad here lol

DACUSing and Wavedashing namely. People were rejoicing that DACUSing was removed from SSB4 because of the patch because the imput was so hard.

And like I said, needless imputs have no place in video games. People would laugh at you if you wanted more.

 

[ClarenceHingleberg]

There's a pretty big difference between adding options and just giving you better options.

I've already explained that "free" aerials unbalances the game. I'll go again, I suppose.

Little Mac. How do you balance him for both casual and competitive play with "free" aerials being so rampant? Give him more power? More speed? Nope, newbies have enough trouble with him as-is. This game isn't just for competitives, yaknow. Give him good aerials? No, that just ruins his uniqueness.

And let's be honest here, when all the best characters in Melee have roughly the same architecture, glass cannon of various degrees, you know there's something wrong. PM ain't much better.



Oh, the complaints are there. Just not near as frequent as they are over here. But really, do you think SM players would be upset if you removed the "tech skill" from the game? Compare PM, where people throw hissy-fits if you even bring up the idea of automatic L-canceling.

My choice... I want to win. If the developers actually cared, they'd make it simple to do these things. If the best players can cope with these options, why not let even the worst players use 'em? And why force the best players to do these imputs? What's gained from it? Nothing, that's what. It's just tedious, plain and simple. I understand that SM couldn't of possibly intergrated stuff like that because it's so old, and how fast you gain a spinespark and the like don't make much of a difference in a completely new game.

I'm forced to do stupid imputs if I want to win, and it's stupid that people find any value in performing these imputs.



DACUSing and Wavedashing namely. People were rejoicing that DACUSing was removed from SSB4 because of the patch because the imput was so hard.

And like I said, needless imputs have no place in video games. People would laugh at you if you wanted more.

Uhh, no one casually cares or does those things. Only tournament people would care. Not to mention those aren't in the players choice version of the game I'm pretty sure(or 1.02, it's one of the later released versions). So your problem should be solved.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

There's a pretty big difference between adding options and just giving you better options.

I agree, but I've already explained there is no good option against a defensive player other than projectile spam or crossing up. Or are you telling me that I'm missing something?

I've already explained that "free" aerials unbalances the game. I'll go again, I suppose.

Little Mac. How do you balance him for both casual and competitive play with "free" aerials being so rampant? Give him more power? More speed? Nope, newbies have enough trouble with him as-is. This game isn't just for competitives, yaknow. Give him good aerials? No, that just ruins his uniqueness.

Give him a legitimate anti air through his up tilt (even though I think it's good enough as it is), he also has a counter (self explanatory), spot dodge? (I never said eliminate end lag, just to not make it so bad, there could be punished if spot dodged correctly rather than herp derp guard then grab), he has armor so why can't he just f smash through or up smash through the aerial? (self explanatory) and if need be he can roll away (Little Mac has one of the best rolling animations in the game so it would be difficult to punish due to the distance and speed of it). I've given you 5 examples that doesn't ruin Little Mac's uniqueness, some of which don't require much skill to do (if you think casuals can't spot dodge or time their armor attacks properly), and at the same time putting Little Mac in a state of security (not making him have to chase in the air).

I'm not even a developer and I can find better reasons than universally nerfing everyone's aerials so Little Mac can stand a fighting chance (which is what your paragraph is implying).

And let's be honest here, when all the best characters in Melee have roughly the same architecture, glass cannon of various degrees, you know there's something wrong. PM ain't much better.

I have no idea what you're talking about. If you're trying to say that all the best characters in Melee and PM are the same that statement is false and you know it.

 

[LimitCrown]

Little Mac's side smash moves him forward while his up smash is more effective when hitting opponents on the ground. If approaches with air attacks are made safer, then Little Mac would probably have a harder time dealing with that.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

Little Mac's side smash moves him forward while his up smash is more effective when hitting opponents on the ground. If approaches with air attacks are made safer, then Little Mac would probably have a harder time dealing with that.

An option is still an option. I do agree there are times that forward smash whiffs when used to counter an aerial but even if up smash doesn't give you that fire effect which boosts damage and knockback it's still damage and knockback effective without it even if you consider rage. Little Mac has a hard time with recovering since the beginning and the developers decided to make it worse by nerfing one of his recovery tools (aerial side b) which killed most Little Mac players (myself included; removed him as a sub character) so if it was about giving Little Mac an easier time, they failed to do that.

 

[Sleek Media]

Oh, the complaints are there. Just not near as frequent as they are over here. But really, do you think SM players would be upset if you removed the "tech skill" from the game? Compare PM, where people throw hissy-fits if you even bring up the idea of automatic L-canceling.

My choice... I want to win. If the developers actually cared, they'd make it simple to do these things. If the best players can cope with these options, why not let even the worst players use 'em? And why force the best players to do these imputs? What's gained from it? Nothing, that's what. It's just tedious, plain and simple. I understand that SM couldn't of possibly intergrated stuff like that because it's so old, and how fast you gain a spinespark and the like don't make much of a difference in a completely new game.

I'm forced to do stupid imputs if I want to win, and it's stupid that people find any value in performing these imputs.

You quoted my post, but I don't think you actually read it. Those "extra inputs" are the method for causing a glitch in the game that just so happens to create a desirable effect. They are not part of the game design. Crystal Flash is a hidden technique that was programmed purposely. Bomb Jumping is a hidden technique that was programmed purposely. Accelerating your running by mashing L is a glitch caused by a programming error. The developers aren't making the game tediuous. You are. Do a no-glitch speedrun, and wow magically everything is intuitive again. Why do you think people have X star speedruns in Mario 64? It's because beating the game with 16 (or even 0) stars and relying on crazy physics glitches is tedious and the game has much more to offer. Mario 64 players even have crazy variations that make them re-think ever aspect of the levels like the "A button challenge".

Same thing with Smash. Wavedashing is a glitch that is beneficial to the player exploiting it. If you don't want to deal with it, just play with other people who don't like dealing with it. It's not like they're hard to find.

 

[LimitCrown]

An option is still an option. I do agree there are times that forward smash whiffs when used to counter an aerial but even if up smash doesn't give you that fire effect which boosts damage and knockback it's still damage and knockback effective without it even if you consider rage. Little Mac has a hard time with recovering since the beginning and the developers decided to make it worse by nerfing one of his recovery tools (aerial side b) which killed most Little Mac players (myself included; removed him as a sub character) so if it was about giving Little Mac an easier time, they failed to do that.

Well, who said that they would buff Little Mac's recovery?

 

[drsusredfish]

stuff

I think everything i'm saying isn't being understood. and it looks like the conversation is about to go in a circle.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

Well, who said that they would buff Little Mac's recovery?

You were arguing that making aerials safer (reducing end lag) would make it harder for Little Mac players. I stated that developers don't care if they made it hard for Little Mac players by nerfing something that was already considered bad (before the patch Little Mac's recovery was bad and most, if not all the cast could easily gimp him, so the nerf has no justification). Understand?

 

[LimitCrown]

You were arguing that making aerials safer (reducing end lag) would make it harder for Little Mac players. I stated that developers don't care if they made it hard for Little Mac players by nerfing something that was already considered bad (before the patch Little Mac's recovery was bad and most, if not all the cast could easily gimp him, so the nerf has no justification). Understand?

There may have been a reason why the air version of Jolt Haymaker's travel distance was reduced. It isn't like they only look at win-loss ratios for determining if a character should be buffed or nerfed.

Also, if you make air attacks safer, then approaches using ground attacks won't be as useful in comparison. Certain air attacks can already auto-cancel. It would also be harder to punish missing an air attack or hitting a shield.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

There may have been a reason why the air version of Jolt Haymaker's travel distance was reduced. It isn't like they only look at win-loss ratios for determining if a character should be buffed or nerfed.

Also, if you make air attacks safer, then approaches using ground attacks won't be as useful in comparison. Certain air attacks can already auto-cancel. It would also be harder to punish missing an air attack or hitting a shield.

May? I've been trying to figure out why they nerfed it and I'm at a loss. I was going to say the only reason I could justify the nerf was because of Little Mac's winrate in For Glory but you already beat me to the punch. If you can't justify it, why defend it?

Like ground attacks were safe in the first place, right? I've already explained why I think the neutral game is messed up so you're going to have to look back for that post. You're ignoring everything I said before and making this conversation go around in circles.

Yes, it would be harder to punish an attack that whiffs but not impossible? Once again, I never said eliminate end lag, reduce it so it's not incredibly delayed so players can be punished if they whiff an attack but they aren't completely helpless like Smash 4 already does. As for your harder to punish hitting a shield comment, are you okay that every aerial should be punished through shield and grab due to lack of shield stun and atrocious end lag? If your answer is yes, then you have no sense of balance. In Smash 4 if the player jumps towards a grounded opponent they have everything to lose.

 

[Red(SP)]

This topic reminds me of that discussion I had on YouTube earlier today. Sakurai said this, Sakurai said that. It's amazing what kind of people will ****-ride someone's words into the depths of Brinstar. If Sakurai said eating C4's were going to help you gain eyesight, would you eat them? Seriously LOL.

 

[LimitCrown]

May? I've been trying to figure out why they nerfed it and I'm at a loss. I was going to say the only reason I could justify the nerf was because of Little Mac's winrate in For Glory but you already beat me to the punch. If you can't justify it, why defend it?

Like ground attacks were safe in the first place, right? I've already explained why I think the neutral game is messed up so you're going to have to look back for that post. You're ignoring everything I said before and making this conversation go around in circles.

Yes, it would be harder to punish an attack that whiffs but not impossible? Once again, I never said eliminate end lag, reduce it so it's not incredibly delayed so players can be punished if they whiff an attack but they aren't completely helpless like Smash 4 already does. As for your harder to punish hitting a shield comment, are you okay that every aerial should be punished through shield and grab due to lack of shield stun and atrocious end lag? If your answer is yes, then you have no sense of balance. In Smash 4 if the player jumps towards a grounded opponent they have everything to lose.

You wouldn't just jump toward and attack an opponent, then expect that you would benefit from that all of the time. That's completely reckless. Obviously, you would use different strategies to outsmart the opponent. I also said that certain air attacks can be auto-cancelled and air attacks that are more powerful tend to have higher landing lag. You're also more vulnerable in the air than on the ground in the first place. It's an exaggeration to say that you're completely helpless when missing an attack.

Also, what point were you trying to prove by bringing up the fact that the air version of Little Mac's Jolt Haymaker doesn't travel as far as it did before after the software update? Little Mac shouldn't be able to recover easily and even without that nerf, he is still vulnerable to attacks that launch him more horizontally and less vertically. He was nerfed in other ways like his jab combo dealing less damage and the SDI multiplier of his neutral air attack being increased.

If you think that you should be able to attempt to attack the opponent freely without needing to know when to not attack, then maybe you are the one who doesn't have a good sense of balance.

 

[ClarenceHingleberg]

Ehh..Yeah you should obviously attack smart, but Smash 4 is completely bent on punishing aggression to an extreme. As a result 1vs1 is very boring. Mostly a grab fest.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

You wouldn't just jump toward and attack an opponent, then expect that you would benefit from that all of the time. That's completely reckless. Obviously, you would use different strategies to outsmart the opponent. I also said that certain air attacks can be auto-cancelled and air attacks that are more powerful tend to have higher landing lag. You're also more vulnerable in the air than on the ground in the first place. It's an exaggeration to say that you're completely helpless when missing an attack.

Also, what point were you trying to prove by bringing up the fact that the air version of Little Mac's Jolt Haymaker doesn't travel as far as it did before after the software update? Little Mac shouldn't be able to recover easily and even without that nerf, he is still vulnerable to attacks that launch him more horizontally and less vertically. He was nerfed in other ways like his jab combo dealing less damage and the SDI multiplier of his neutral air attack being increased.

If you think that you should be able to attempt to attack the opponent freely without needing to know when to not attack, then maybe you are the one who doesn't have a good sense of balance.

I wasn't clear on "jumping in" so that is my fault. I assume you're aware of spacing. In previous Smash titles properly spacing aerials put the player at a point of safety while avoiding punishment. I have been a Marth main since Melee and I am annoyed how the game treats aerials, how can a properly spaced fair be punished by a shield then grab? It's questions like that which boggles my mind at this games so called balance. So when I said jumping in on an opponent I meant jumping in with a properly spaced attack, not jumping in with an attack and landing in front of the opponent.

What are these strategies? If there were strategies I wouldn't be saying things like this game benefits defensive play tremendously or that the neutral game is bad. The fact of the matter is the only "strategies" around the bad ground game are pivot cancelling (which was not intended) and the only way around the aerial game against a grounded opponent is to not attack (and hopefully scare your opponent since not attacking reduces the landing lag) or to crossup and put yourself to a different side of the map (changing nothing). Am I missing something?

What are you talking about? If I remember correctly, I was talking to someone else about Little Mac until you quoted a post I said about him so the question is what point are you trying to make questioning my view on Little Mac? In my opinion, you were attempting to justify developers with no basis and I give you a basis why the character is bad then instead of acknowledging it you say, "Wait, why are we talking about Little Mac?" I am aware of Little Mac's nerfs and I only complain about how they made his recovery even worse (because this makes him unusable). There was no justification in making him have an even worse recovery and you still can't justify it.

Firstly I didn't say players should be able to attack freely, you clearly haven't listened to anything I said. And secondly, you're a hypocrite. You think it's okay for players to freely shield and grab opponents using air attacks and when I say that players should have more freedom with their aerials because it's too easy to punish them, you think I'm saying to make aerials free? Please.

 

[StarBot]

Terrible.

Kid Icarus sucked bro. ESPECIALLY if you're a leftie. Game was freaking impossible than.

Whatever, I'm done with this thread. Clogging up my alert bar. It's just one massive circlejerk.

I personally liked Kid Icarus...

*Get Shot Because Peolpe Can't Take A Opinion*

 

[StarBot]

Why are you bothering, then ?

Because I came here to play to the game. Not to see peolpe in there 20s crying like babies.

 

[GameWatching]

Because I came here to play to the game. Not to see peolpe in there 20s crying like babies.

You came here to play the game ?
I think you came here to call the smash community the worst and to be belittle other people for not being entirely satisfied by something.

 

[StarBot]

You came here to play the game ?
I think you came here to call the smash community the worst and to be belittle other people for not being entirely satisfied by something.

I actually wanted to put my 2 cents on the matter.
But if peolpe want to get upset about it...

 

[GameWatching]

I actually wanted to put my 2 cents on the matter.
But if peolpe want to get upset about it...

You post here exclusively to say how this community is the worst and immature and want everyone to be content with it ?

 

[StarBot]

You post here exclusively to say how this community is the worst and immature and want everyone to be content with it ?

I actually wanted to put my 2 cents on the matter.
But if peolpe want to get upset about it...

 

[PootisKonga]

Those "extra inputs" are the method for causing a glitch in the game that just so happens to create a desirable effect. They are not part of the game design.

Do you have a source for that? L-Cancelling was in both Melee and 64 and was intentionally removed from future games.

Also, I have found this from a thread on another site from long timea few years ago:

Wiki - In video games, a glitch is a term used by players to indicate a programming error which results in behavior not intended by the programmers.

L-cancelling - L-cancelling is a technique in which the player presses R, L, or Z to cancel or lessen the lag of an aerial A attack.

1. If L-cancel was not intended by the programmers, the game would recieve no command to cancel the lag of an areial attack.

2. If L-cancel was not intended by the programmers, there would be no separate animation of lessened lag.

3. If L-cancel were a glitch, it is not likely that it would react or have the same reaction to the buttons L, R, and Z. Especially Z, because it's input is the a combination of "R+A".

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

L-canceling when hiting a shield or player is different than L-canceling a whiff. So it still has you interact with your opponent.

since pivots are done in such a way that keeps you safe you can do them blindly. as the tutorial vids say they have uses like a wave dash.

do the timing within 4 frames if I recall and you cover all options someone can do to you to make you miss it.

Not really fixing the issue of, there is no reason to not L-cancel outside of extreme rare situations.

 

[<π]

I'm really disappointed by this thread even more than the original article... You have to be very careful when you are just taking and regurgitating someone else story. Once again Sakurai is painted as some guy who hates the competitive scene. People will be quoting this thread's old title till long after the next smash game comes out.

 

[Tcll]

There's quite alot of things in smash 4 I'll say needs improvment that really lowers the game's potential in my eyes.

For one, I like to pass around a term for which I call the recent versions since Brawl "Bubbly"
What I mean by this is the feeling the game gives as you play it... it's not exactly Epic anymore like it was in Melee.
Melee had a more "in-your-face" feel with an epic announcer, intrusive sound effects, and all kinds of stuff that made the experience just out-right amazing.

Note: this is coming from someone who's a more casual player.
I'm not into the hard-core cheap tactics used in tourneys... I like pure techs and TAS-style fighting, while also giving my opponent a little slack to make the battle look even more epic.
(I hate cheapness and tactics that kill a mood, be it yours or their's)

But here's a few things that really disappoint me about the game:

- smash4 feels just like Brawl, annoying music remixes of the same theme, and whatever else they could include, you name it!
- epic and fun Smash Run for 3DS, dull and boring Mario Party with a little twist for WiiU
- major tech nerfs and character bamfs despite the faster gameplay

I could go on, but I don't want to take too much away from the game...

I won't be entirely negative though, the equipment was probably the best thing they could've done to keep smash alive, and the amibo was an amazing addition as well, if only it wasn't jut costumes in other games, and the characters could actually do stuff in those other games.
(I'd love to play as Pikachu in Hyrule Warriors and decimate waves of enemies with my thunder)

I do with the scoring system from Melee would've made it's return in Smash4, that was an epic feature that made people feel like they actually accomplished something!

And I really wish they would've designed yet another technical menu theme like both Melee and 64 had... the Brawl theme is just boring, and the countless remixes make it all the more boring.

Melee has THE BEST Adventure Mode hands down!!!

I have many more wishes, but I'm not gonna turn this thread into a rant-fest of what I want smash to be.
Even though I know MAAAAANY others can agree with me and want the exact same.

So yea, I'm disappointed with the current games, but at least they have a few things I can't disregard them for.


EDIT:
excuse me, I abused the use of the Amibo.
while that would be awesome to see in HW, their use in smash is to have a CPU player BY YOUR SIDE.
now imagine being Link taking down waves of enemies with a Pikachu by your side and your partner by your other side.

 

[DarkDream]

Why is everyone ignoring the fact that he told competitive players to go play another game? That shows more than the no future comment ever could. He would rather have us play something else than to have his game cater more to us.

 

[<π]

Why is everyone ignoring the fact that he told competitive players to go play another game? That shows more than the no future comment ever could. He would rather have us play something else than to have his game cater more to us.

He is saying if you want to play melee play melee, if you want to play Guilty Gear Xrd... play that! Don't come to smash 4 and expect it to have the game speed and input complexity of those titles. Smash 4 WAS made to appeal to a wider audience, that doesn't mean it isn't a deep thought provoking and competitive game...

You guys blow my mind with this.