Sakurai: "If we Direct Smash ONLY at The Competitive Players, It Will Have No Future."

[Deleted member]

Casual does not equal slow. Casual does not equal removing most of the game's depth. But this is how Sakurai feels anyway, despite the success of Melee both as a casual and competitive game. I'm not even talking about wavedashing. I'm talking about the general speed of the game. I've seen and heard plenty of more casual Smash fans say that the game is too slow, too floaty, and the exciting combos are lacking. An overall slower game is simply not as fun as an overall faster game, for anybody.

Sakurai has had a lot of great ideas, but he stifles the competitive side of Smash for no good reason when it's perfectly clear that Smash is capable of being both casual and competitive if he allowed it to be. It's time for him to move on.

 

[Deleted member]

Casual does not equal slow. Casual does not equal removing most of the game's depth. But this is how Sakurai feels anyway, despite the success of Melee both as a casual and competitive game. I'm not even talking about wavedashing. I'm talking about the general speed of the game. I've seen and heard plenty of more casual Smash fans say that the game is too slow, too floaty, and the exciting combos are lacking. An overall slower game is simply not as fun as an overall faster game, for anybody.

Sakurai has had a lot of great ideas, but he stifles the competitive side of Smash for no good reason when it's perfectly clear that Smash is capable of being both casual and competitive if he allowed it to be. It's time for him to move on.

To me, Casual refers to people who play the game to have fun, not so they can be the best in the world at what they have no idea. The difference between "casual" and "hardcore" can be so vague at times, but here's my take on it:

Casual gamers are people who buy a video game for the name value. They include, but aren't entirely based upon, the people who play it simply because it has Mario fighting Pikachu. They also include people who enjoy fighting, but are also aware that they probably suck and limit their interactions to friends and family. A Casual gamer tends to prefer customization (such as Mii Fighters) and an abundance of single-player modes (which is servicable on 3DS but highly objectionable on the Wii U, which was the focal point of this project).

Hardcore gamers buy video games primarily for competition, but also because of the fact that they view video games as more of an interactive art than as a time waster. To them, they want to explore the inner workings of a game, and no genre provides a better concept of this than fighting games. Movesets are dissected, defensive strategies reign supreme over offensive ones, they divide characters into "tiers" based on strength and effectiveness, etc..

My main issue is that Sakurai sounds like he's irritated at the notion that hardcore gamers want a serious game, yet wants to make a game for the casual gamer, while at the same time limiting what they have access to.

 

[Deleted member]

Exactly. Casual gamers loved Melee despite the competitive depth. In fact, a lot of them probably liked that game more due to the increased speed. The only thing Sakurai has done is alienate competitive players. If he kept expanding on what he accomplished with Melee, he would attract both casual and comptetive players alike.

 

[Zekersaurus]

I have been defending Sakurai for the longest. As a game designer he's really quite skilled and talented. But now its clear he doesn't know wtf he's doing... and he's kind of a d*** too. It's a real shame.

That being said, I still love all 4 smash games and it's still my favorite fighting game series.

 

[LimitCrown]

Exactly. Casual gamers loved Melee despite the competitive depth. In fact, a lot of them probably liked that game more due to the increased speed. The only thing Sakurai has done is alienate competitive players. If he kept expanding on what he accomplished with Melee, he would attract both casual and comptetive players alike.

Unless a casual player utilized any of the advanced techniques and physics exploits in Melee, I doubt that there would be a substantial difference in speed noticed.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Sakurai isn't obligated to cater solely to a comparatively small group of people.

But heres the thing; Changing anything competitively related about the game won't hurt the other players. Sakurai could've gotten extra sales if he didn't hate competitive play so much

Also, putting skill barriers or more options in a game won't mean that the game becomes more deep.

yes, it does. More options means more depth, and Skill barriers just means you need to play more to be better. If you like it if the game has no Options and no skill barrier, then you just want to put in no work, and hope to be good.

Melee isn't "too fast," you just have to practice. Once you get used to it, these "Skill Barriers" will look easy. Example, wavedashing.

 

[LimitCrown]

But heres the thing; Changing anything competitively related about the game won't hurt the other players. Sakurai could've gotten extra sales if he didn't hate competitive play so much

yes, it does. More options means more depth, and Skill barriers just means you need to play more to be better. If you like it if the game has no Options and no skill barrier, then you just want to put in no work, and hope to be good.

Melee isn't "too fast," you just have to practice. Once you get used to it, these "Skill Barriers" will look easy. Example, wavedashing.

Most of the sales of the game are not from competitive players and the game isn't targeted solely towards them.

Does L-Cancelling, a mechanic or "option" that other people request to be in the game, add depth to Super Smash Bros.? It doesn't because not only is there not a reason to not use L-Cancelling always, but if seen from another perspective, you are penalized for not using L-cancelling. There isn't any inherent advantages to L-cancelling if the landing lag could have been adjusted in the first place. It is an unnecessary skill barrier that doesn't add anything.

Wavedashing's problem is that some characters benefit from it much more than others. In most cases, it outclasses walking as a movement option. That isn't good. Wavedashing also requires the directional air dodge that Melee had. In comparison to Brawl and Smash 4's air dodge, the Melee air dodge wasn't really useful for dodging.

 

[brodouble]

lmao that's what you've been doing this entire time XD

oh boi, your jimmiez are rly rustling i see.

 

[drsusredfish]

Most of the sales of the game are not from competitive players and the game isn't targeted solely towards them.

Does L-Cancelling, a mechanic or "option" that other people request to be in the game, add depth to Super Smash Bros.? It doesn't because not only is there not a reason to not use L-Cancelling always, but if seen from another perspective, you are penalized for not using L-cancelling. There isn't any inherent advantages to L-cancelling if the landing lag could have been adjusted in the first place. It is an unnecessary skill barrier that doesn't add anything.

on the target audience thing. Casuals gona casual no mater what. Not Making the game more tourney friendly just cuts out that part of your audience. On the other hand the tourney people still have to buy the game to see that they don't want it but by that time nintendo already got what they want.

*Satire* Why is perfect shielding in the game you get punished for not using it. there is no reason you should not power shield it adds an unnecessary skill barrier... you see where this can go.

just about any "advanced" mechanic that requires some type of timing to get favorable results in smash can be argued the way you have. So in the end it comes down to how you want to play.

lets do another one. *Satire* Why do I need to shield to stop my running. there is no reason not to do that if i want to stop in place. There isn't any inherent advantage to stop running that way if the run stop animation could have been adjusted in the first place so i dont go past my intended stop point. pressing shield to stop running is an unnecessary skill.

lets get silly. *satire* why is perfect pivoting in the game? there is no reason not to perfect pivot. if the attack range can be adjusted to go full screen we wouldn't have to space the attack in the first place.

what? taking out these machanics makes the game less fun...you don't say. (you really didn't say that, still being satirical.)

but that's how lack of other mechanics makes some others feel.<-(not satire)

 

[brodouble]

Most of the sales of the game are not from competitive players and the game isn't targeted solely towards them.

Does L-Cancelling, a mechanic or "option" that other people request to be in the game, add depth to Super Smash Bros.? It doesn't because not only is there not a reason to not use L-Cancelling always, but if seen from another perspective, you are penalized for not using L-cancelling. There isn't any inherent advantages to L-cancelling if the landing lag could have been adjusted in the first place. It is an unnecessary skill barrier that doesn't add anything.

Wavedashing's problem is that some characters benefit from it much more than others. In most cases, it outclasses walking as a movement option. That isn't good. Wavedashing also requires the directional air dodge that Melee had. In comparison to Brawl and Smash 4's air dodge, the Melee air dodge wasn't really useful for dodging.

uhh, in comparison, the only difference is brawl and smash 4 are very safe. you can air dodge constantly, side dodge constantly, shield forever. the game comes down to two people not wanting to make a move cuz they get stomped for it. in melee you really had to air dodge creatively, not just toss it out like it's nothing. hell, hitting someone with their shield up in smash 4 doesn't even stun them; they can immediately grab you for it.

 

[synesthe-sia]

I have this theory that Sakurai got #rekt by some MLGPRO420BLAZEITNOSCOPE player in Melee before Brawl was developed and has held a grudge ever since. Also, yeah. I'll go play Street Fighter and Tekken instead. They're so similar. All the skill I've acquired in Smash will help me there.

 

[LimitCrown]

on the target audience thing. Casuals gona casual no mater what. Not Making the game more tourney friendly just cuts out that part of your audience. On the other hand the tourney people still have to buy the game to see that they don't want it but by that time nintendo already got what they want.

*Satire* Why is perfect shielding in the game you get punished for not using it. there is no reason you should not power shield it adds an unnecessary skill barrier... you see where this can go.

just about any "advanced" mechanic that requires some type of timing to get favorable results in smash can be argued the way you have. So in the end it comes down to how you want to play.

lets do another one. *Satire* Why do I need to shield to stop my running. there is no reason not to do that if i want to stop in place. There isn't any inherent advantage to stop running that way if the run stop animation could have been adjusted in the first place so i dont go past my intended stop point. pressing shield to stop running is an unnecessary skill.

lets get silly. *satire* why is perfect pivoting in the game? there is no reason not to perfect pivot. if the attack range can be adjusted to go full screen we wouldn't have to space the attack in the first place.

what? taking out these machanics makes the game less fun...you don't say. (you really didn't say that, still being satirical.)

but that's how lack of other mechanics makes some others feel.<-(not satire)

Perfect shielding is not possible to do 100% of the time neither is it necessary to use very frequently in higher-level play. Also, if shielding allowed you to act immediately afterwards, I'm sure that many people would complain more about defensive options being overpowered. Besides, you have the option to dodge and shielding isn't always the best solution.

You don't need to shield to stop your running every time nor do you need to run all of the time in the game.

Perfect pivoting is not incredibly useful, it's very situational, and it isn't like not using the technique puts you at a huge disadvantage. It was also present in the previous games.

Your comparisons are flawed, and your parodies of my argument doesn't make sense when all of the techniques that you listed are not required to be used all of the time like L-canceling was nor do either of them overshadow another action like wavedashing did.

uhh, in comparison, the only difference is brawl and smash 4 are very safe. you can air dodge constantly, side dodge constantly, shield forever. the game comes down to two people not wanting to make a move cuz they get stomped for it. in melee you really had to air dodge creatively, not just toss it out like it's nothing. hell, hitting someone with their shield up in smash 4 doesn't even stun them; they can immediately grab you for it.

If you can't punish the opponent for predictably dodging continuously, then you're probably not good at doing that.

In Melee, compared to Smash 4, you were much more vulnerable in the air than on the ground. If you performed an air dodge, you would be put into a helpless animation. you can't creatively use the Melee air dodge when you can only use it once and it isn't very good for dodging.

In Smash 4, it's safer to not attack someone who uses their shield.

 

[brodouble]

Perfect shielding is not possible to do 100% of the time neither is it necessary to use very frequently in higher-level play. Also, if shielding allowed you to act immediately afterwards, I'm sure that many people would complain more about defensive options being overpowered. Besides, you have the option to dodge and shielding isn't always the best solution.

You don't need to shield to stop your running every time nor do you need to run all of the time in the game.

Perfect pivoting is not incredibly useful, it's very situational, and it isn't like not using the technique puts you at a huge disadvantage. It was also present in the previous games.

Your comparisons are flawed, and your parodies of my argument doesn't make sense when all of the techniques that you listed are not required to be used all of the time like L-canceling was nor do either of them overshadow another action like wavedashing did.


If you can't punish the opponent for predictably dodging continuously, then you're probably not good at doing that.

In Melee, compared to Smash 4, you were much more vulnerable in the air than on the ground. If you performed an air dodge, you would be put into a helpless animation. you can't creatively use the Melee air dodge when you can only use it once and it isn't very good for dodging.

In Smash 4, it's safer to not attack someone who uses their shield.

lol omg dude, no one's saying you can't punish it. i'm saying it's boring as hell. no shield hitstun is the dumbest mechanic in this game. if they put that in, it would change things entirely.

 

[LimitCrown]

lol omg dude, no one's saying you can't punish it. i'm saying it's boring as hell. no shield hitstun is the dumbest mechanic in this game. if they put that in, it would change things entirely.

I'm also saying that it isn't as reliable as you're making it seem to be, especially if they're dodging predictably. There is less shieldstun compared to Brawl, but it isn't like there isn't any shieldstun and since it is safer to not attack someone while they're shielding, you just need to slightly change the strategy that you use.

 

[brodouble]

I'm also saying that it isn't as reliable as you're making it seem to be, especially if they're dodging predictably. There is less shieldstun compared to Brawl, but it isn't like there isn't any shieldstun and since it is safer to not attack someone while they're shielding, you just need to slightly change the strategy that you use.

dude there's basically no stun whatsoever. if you smack someone when they've got their shield up they can instantly punish you for it if they react accordingly. not to mention you gotta drop a nuke on that shield or else it ain't friggin breaking.

sakurai is an idiot because the REAL casuals are getting stomped online and going to quit early because of it. the dedicated people will always stomp out the lower skilled players, so as a result, it doesn't matter how much he simplifies tactics or whatnot, the end result is the same. i think by making it so heavily defensive based he's actually hurting the lower skilled people even more. not to mention making it an overall boring experience.

 

[Vaidya]

oh boi, your jimmiez are rly rustling i see.

lol fail attempt to hide your sorrow. it's aite, it's funny to see you struggle in your time of need

 

[LimitCrown]

dude there's basically no stun whatsoever. if you smack someone when they've got their shield up they can instantly punish you for it if they react accordingly. not to mention you gotta drop a nuke on that shield or else it ain't friggin breaking.

sakurai is an idiot because the REAL casuals are getting stomped online and going to quit early because of it. the dedicated people will always stomp out the lower skilled players, so as a result, it doesn't matter how much he simplifies tactics or whatnot, the end result is the same. i think by making it so heavily defensive based he's actually hurting the lower skilled people even more. not to mention making it an overall boring experience.

I will assume that you're exaggerating. There is less shieldstun, but it isn't nonexistent. If you attempt to attack someone who shielded your attack, then why would you be surprised that you were punished for that? Shields are supposed to beat regular attacks. Also, in Super Smash Bros. 4, certain attacks deal more shield damage.

In the game, there is a For Fun mode and a For Glory mode. Also, why do you mistakenly claim that tactics are more simplified or that the game is heavily defensive? Not every character should be given attacks that are safe on shield, nor should many of the attacks be.

 

[Sleek Media]

lol omg dude, no one's saying you can't punish it. i'm saying it's boring as hell. no shield hitstun is the dumbest mechanic in this game. if they put that in, it would change things entirely.

lol do you not understand the concept of "shielding an attack"? This board is funny.

 

[Deleted member]

Unless a casual player utilized any of the advanced techniques and physics exploits in Melee, I doubt that there would be a substantial difference in speed noticed.

The falling speed of many characters in Melee is noticeably faster. Games, on average, last a shorter amount of time because defensive play is not rewarded as much - recovering safely isn't easy-mode, ledge guarding results in earlier KO's, air dodges and rolls are less safe, shielding is less safe. More hitstun allows for better follow ups when you hit an opponent. And frankly, learning how to L-cancel, which doesn't take much effort, would greatly improve the playing experience of any casual player because it allows you to use aerial moves much more freely, which allows for many more combos, which in turn leads to faster damage racking, which in turn speeds up the game noticeably.

Go play Project M, which has basically fine-tuned Melee-style gameplay, and you'll see just how fast it is compared to Smash4.

If Smash4 had faster falling speed, no ledge snapping, less endlag on aerials (L-cancelling isn't even required), more hitstun, and less safe rolls/air dodges, it would be much faster and more enjoyable. I probably wouldn't even care about the lack of wavedashing.

 

[D.A. RAFA]

Jack of all trades and master of a few of those with weaknesses that really don't even come close to offsetting their strengths of everything. They are toxic and made PM's characters in resign awful.

You really can't on a lot of situations, you miss grabbing backwards and they keep the jank in PM for no good reason.

Battlefields ledges don't match up well with how they should be fir ledge detection and get people killed a lot.

Melee design diversity is very limited, characters very easily overlap where as in brawl and Smash 4 they have more identity.

Nice insults though, you should try real arguments over mud slinging though.

me?

Yeah you. It wasn't your views that I disagreed with. My mistake.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

on the target audience thing. Casuals gona casual no mater what. Not Making the game more tourney friendly just cuts out that part of your audience. On the other hand the tourney people still have to buy the game to see that they don't want it but by that time nintendo already got what they want.

*Satire* Why is perfect shielding in the game you get punished for not using it. there is no reason you should not power shield it adds an unnecessary skill barrier... you see where this can go.

just about any "advanced" mechanic that requires some type of timing to get favorable results in smash can be argued the way you have. So in the end it comes down to how you want to play.

lets do another one. *Satire* Why do I need to shield to stop my running. there is no reason not to do that if i want to stop in place. There isn't any inherent advantage to stop running that way if the run stop animation could have been adjusted in the first place so i dont go past my intended stop point. pressing shield to stop running is an unnecessary skill.

lets get silly. *satire* why is perfect pivoting in the game? there is no reason not to perfect pivot.

Uh no.

Perfect shields require you to interact with your opponent.

Pivots are similar in that you don't blindly use them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

on the target audience thing. Casuals gona casual no mater what. Not Making the game more tourney friendly just cuts out that part of your audience. On the other hand the tourney people still have to buy the game to see that they don't want it but by that time nintendo already got what they want.

*Satire* Why is perfect shielding in the game you get punished for not using it. there is no reason you should not power shield it adds an unnecessary skill barrier... you see where this can go.

just about any "advanced" mechanic that requires some type of timing to get favorable results in smash can be argued the way you have. So in the end it comes down to how you want to play.

lets do another one. *Satire* Why do I need to shield to stop my running. there is no reason not to do that if i want to stop in place. There isn't any inherent advantage to stop running that way if the run stop animation could have been adjusted in the first place so i dont go past my intended stop point. pressing shield to stop running is an unnecessary skill.

lets get silly. *satire* why is perfect pivoting in the game? there is no reason not to perfect pivot.

Uh no.

Perfect shields require you to interact with your opponent.

Pivots are similar in that you don't blindly use them.

 

[LancerStaff]

Exactly. Casual gamers loved Melee despite the competitive depth. In fact, a lot of them probably liked that game more due to the increased speed. The only thing Sakurai has done is alienate competitive players. If he kept expanding on what he accomplished with Melee, he would attract both casual and comptetive players alike.

Most casual players who've gone back typically preferred Brawl, dude. I think you remember how kooky the ledges were, and how difficult it is to jump out and block recoveries. Probably the biggest thing is buffering, and since Melee lacks it, most casuals think Melee is stiff and unresponsive.

And again, as soon as you add online play people will be complaining left and right about these "techs."

 

[brodouble]

lol fail attempt to hide your sorrow. it's aite, it's funny to see you struggle in your time of need

"sorrow?" lol virgin for life, you are. u mad bro? your tears are delicious

 

[brodouble]

Most casual players who've gone back typically preferred Brawl, dude. I think you remember how kooky the ledges were, and how difficult it is to jump out and block recoveries. Probably the biggest thing is buffering, and since Melee lacks it, most casuals think Melee is stiff and unresponsive.

And again, as soon as you add online play people will be complaining left and right about these "techs."

dude there's like 9 million people that bought melee and brawl, how the hell do we know what they all prefer? you need a life lol

people already complain about smash 4's defensive play online. anyone who sucked at melee is going to get their ass whooped in this game. it makes no difference what techs are or arent there.

 

[BobVance_]

This is still alive? Wow.

I'll say this. Smash 4 is only fun with 3 or 4 people, honestly. The mechanics haven't been fixed enough to make competitive play watchable or enjoyable. I think Smash 4's safe mechanics were clearly meant to be balanced out by items or stage chaos. Which means if you take out those elements, you're left with something dull and boring. Melee had both, and was a lot faster, hence why I prefer it personally. Like I said before, I firmly believe that your real casual player is going to be like "wait, why does he keep shielding? i cant hit him. he just dodges everything blahblah blah" and in the end the dominant people will pretty much drive those players out. It's going to be the same no matter how easy the game is.

 

[Deleted member]

Most casual players who've gone back typically preferred Brawl, dude. I think you remember how kooky the ledges were, and how difficult it is to jump out and block recoveries. Probably the biggest thing is buffering, and since Melee lacks it, most casuals think Melee is stiff and unresponsive."

Every casual friend of mine has preferred Project M's gameplay to Brawl's. After playing for a few hours to get used to the loss of buffering (which is a pretty dumb mechanic) and learning how to L-cancel (which is fairly easy), most people over the age of 13 will prefer the faster, more combo-oriented gameplay.

 

[BobVance_]

Every casual friend of mine has preferred Project M's gameplay to Brawl's. After playing for a few hours to get used to the loss of buffering (which is a pretty dumb mechanic) and learning how to L-cancel (which is super-easy), most people over the age of 13 will prefer the faster, more combo-oriented gameplay.

Agreed. I introduced Project M to a group of friends way back when the first version was released, and these guys are as casual as they come in terms of skill and they loved it. Honestly, had Brawl been just as fast you wouldn't see people talking about why it shouldn't be. It's more or less a psychological mentality of "well, we're stuck with this, so I might as well make the best of it and/or justify why it's better" sort of thing.

 

[LancerStaff]

dude there's like 9 million people that bought melee and brawl, how the hell do we know what they all prefer? you need a life lol

people already complain about smash 4's defensive play online. anyone who sucked at melee is going to get their *** whooped in this game. it makes no difference what techs are or arent there.

Have you asked casual players? Have you actually had them sit down and play the two back-to-back? Me, I've done that. I've even asked my interwebs friends to do the same, and it's always the same results. I even limited characters down to those who are similar between the two games.

People would be complaining just as much if the game was too offensive, heh. "Oh, it's too hard to escape combos." "Ah, campy characters are useless." "Gee, you really don't need to think about your moves in this game. Just spam aerials to win lol." "Why are shields and rolling useless?"

Doesn't matter if there's "techs" or not? Good, cut them so people aren't turned away by them.

Every casual friend of mine has preferred Project M's gameplay to Brawl's. After playing for a few hours to get used to the loss of buffering (which is a pretty dumb mechanic) and learning how to L-cancel (which is fairly easy), most people over the age of 13 will prefer the faster, more combo-oriented gameplay.

I doubt you were trying it remotely scientificly. I'd guess they were feeling the balance more then anything else. People hate ledgeguarding in Brawl, much less Melee. People hate the whole having to press L after every aerial nonsense, but that instantly makes your test group un-casual anyway.

People hate the homogenation required to balance a game like that, too. Just look at Brawl Pit to PM Pit. He loses his god-tier camping ability and gets almost nothing in return. Brawl to SSB4, Pit again loses most of his camping ability, but he gets a new Fspecial, Ftilt, and Fair in return along with buffs in almost every aspect. That's just one character. Another obvious one is Wario and his bike. Completely cut from PM, but in SSB4 it lost it's pieces (probably because of SSB3D/8-player, but my point still stands) but now it "returns" quicker. SSB is a game about the characters, and if half the character

Buffering dumb? That's a laugh and a half. Hell, buffering makes it's way into any remotely action-y genre. Super Metroid, a SNES game, even had jump buffering. Why would you want a mechanic that makes combos easier (or even in some cases remotely possible) out of the game? Unless it interferes with some doofy tech dilly-bob of course.

 

[BobVance_]

Lancer, you need to stop trying so hard. Your posts gives people ebola.

 

[brodouble]

Have you asked casual players? Have you actually had them sit down and play the two back-to-back? Me, I've done that. I've even asked my interwebs friends to do the same, and it's always the same results. I even limited characters down to those who are similar between the two games.

People would be complaining just as much if the game was too offensive, heh. "Oh, it's too hard to escape combos." "Ah, campy characters are useless." "Gee, you really don't need to think about your moves in this game. Just spam aerials to win lol." "Why are shields and rolling useless?"

Doesn't matter if there's "techs" or not? Good, cut them so people aren't turned away by them.



I doubt you were trying it remotely scientificly. I'd guess they were feeling the balance more then anything else. People hate ledgeguarding in Brawl, much less Melee. People hate the whole having to press L after every aerial nonsense, but that instantly makes your test group un-casual anyway.

People hate the homogenation required to balance a game like that, too. Just look at Brawl Pit to PM Pit. He loses his god-tier camping ability and gets almost nothing in return. Brawl to SSB4, Pit again loses most of his camping ability, but he gets a new Fspecial, Ftilt, and Fair in return along with buffs in almost every aspect. That's just one character. Another obvious one is Wario and his bike. Completely cut from PM, but in SSB4 it lost it's pieces (probably because of SSB3D/8-player, but my point still stands) but now it "returns" quicker. SSB is a game about the characters, and if half the character

Buffering dumb? That's a laugh and a half. Hell, buffering makes it's way into any remotely action-y genre. Super Metroid, a SNES game, even had jump buffering. Why would you want a mechanic that makes combos easier (or even in some cases remotely possible) out of the game? Unless it interferes with some doofy tech dilly-bob of course.

ROFLMAO this guy "yo i did sum polling and liek i asked 5 friends" seriously dude, get outta here and stop dedicating like an essays worth of time per post. you make no sense and nothing you say ever has any bearing, i hate seeing you waste your time.

 

[LancerStaff]

ROFLMAO this guy "yo i did sum polling and liek i asked 5 friends" seriously dude, get outta here and stop dedicating like an essays worth of time per post. you make no sense and nothing you say ever has any bearing, i hate seeing you waste your time.

A sample size of about fourty people, or five groups of roughly seven if you prefer, all giving the same result is pretty telling don't you think? Not a single person preferred Melee.

If you hate seeing me, just block me and get it over with.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Every casual friend of mine has preferred Project M's gameplay to Brawl's. After playing for a few hours to get used to the loss of buffering (which is a pretty dumb mechanic) and learning how to L-cancel (which is fairly easy), most people over the age of 13 will prefer the faster, more combo-oriented gameplay.

And mine hated it.

People have different preferences but on a casual standpoint the new game is more likely gonna have the largest abd more liked following off it just being new.

Also, Buffering is actually a good thing.

 

[BobVance_]

"People would be complaining just as much if the game was too offensive, heh. "Oh, it's too hard to escape combos." "Ah, campy characters are useless." "Gee, you really don't need to think about your moves in this game. Just spam aerials to win lol." "Why are shields and rolling useless?"

Doesn't matter if there's "techs" or not? Good, cut them so people aren't turned away by them."

Right, people will complain either way; those crappy players will be salty regardless. So, if the end result is the same, I want a more exciting game. Smash 4 isn't it. Why dumb down a game when the bad players will always be salty regardless?

 

[Vaidya]

"sorrow?" lol virgin for life, you are. u mad bro? your tears are delicious

lmao how can I be virgin if I ****ed your mom real good last night? she was thinking of giving you up, I can see why

 

[brodouble]

lmao how can I be virgin if I ****ed your mom real good last night? she was thinking of giving you up, I can see why

rofl you aint ****ing anyone with that 2inch stick of yours. you'd put a woman to sleep faster than sleep meds.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Knock it off both of you.

 

[ClarenceHingleberg]

I don't know whats up with a lot of people but I've never found a single smash game difficult..I remember even my 7 year old sister was able to stomp me and my friends in melee back in the day several times. They've all been easy to pick up. Not sure why there's some divide..I kind of think if the gameplay had never made the switch, no one would have anything to say about it and we'd still be buying the sequels and loving them. I mean regardless of how fast or slow they are, the online will always cater towards those with the most skill..It's a fighting game and a pretty easy one at that. I really don't get this guys mindset, he sounds spiteful.

 

[drsusredfish]

Uh no.

Perfect shields require you to interact with your opponent.

Pivots are similar in that you don't blindly use them.

L-canceling when hiting a shield or player is different than L-canceling a whiff. So it still has you interact with your opponent.

since pivots are done in such a way that keeps you safe you can do them blindly. as the tutorial vids say they have uses like a wave dash.

 

[LancerStaff]

"People would be complaining just as much if the game was too offensive, heh. "Oh, it's too hard to escape combos." "Ah, campy characters are useless." "Gee, you really don't need to think about your moves in this game. Just spam aerials to win lol." "Why are shields and rolling useless?"

Doesn't matter if there's "techs" or not? Good, cut them so people aren't turned away by them."

Right, people will complain either way; those crappy players will be salty regardless. So, if the end result is the same, I want a more exciting game. Smash 4 isn't it. Why dumbdown a game when the bad players will always be salty regardless?

I wouldn't call it dumbed down even. It's a heck of a lot easier on the hands and the design is more balanced.

I don't know whats up with a lot of people but I've never found a single smash game difficult..I remember even my 7 year old sister was able to stomp me and my friends in melee back in the day several times. They've all been easy to pick up. Not sure why there's some divide..I kind of think if the gameplay had never made the switch, no one would have anything to say about it and we'd still be buying the sequels and loving them. I mean regardless of how fast or slow they are, the online will always cater towards those with the most skill..It's a fighting game and a pretty easy one at that. I really don't get this guys mindset, he sounds spiteful.

There's something fundamentally wrong with making imputs easier? Do people actually value difficult imputs in Smash of all things? Look somewhere else for tech skill, Smash wasn't ever supposed to have it in any significant way. Look at Super Metroid, the Melee of competitive speedrunning. People call it antiquated for having difficult imputs for simple actions, same as Melee. Difference is that people veiw it as a legitimate complaint over there. Instead of walking two steps then running for a quick spinespark, why couldn't they of just increased the acceleration? Instead of tapping L when running to go faster, couldn't they just make run faster? It goes on and on and on... People just accept them as blemishes on an otherwise perfect game.

Now now, before you compare my examples to L-canceling, these don't make wide changes to the game. They bridge a few gaps and maybe let you skip a minor boss or two, and you could skip a few already. And everybody honestly thinks the game would be better off if it were easier. Most "techs" in Smash override other options almost entirely, and rather then create more options it just randomly unbalances and unsimplifies the game.

L-canceling when hiting a shield or player is different than L-canceling a whiff. So it still has you interact with your opponent.

since pivots are done in such a way that keeps you safe you can do them blindly. as the tutorial vids say they have uses like a wave dash.

Hitting a shield don't effect that much. Let's be honest, not having to press L after every aerial would do a good deal in preventing arthritis in it's players.