Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[SiegKnight]

;_; arr. GOD?! I CAN'T TELL FROM HIS PROFILE ABOUT HUGGING CUTE BOYS, AM I SUPPOSED TO BE PSYCHIC ABOUT GENDERS NOWW?!! *blows up planet*

 

[NES n00b]

JOHNZ

No johns.

10characters

 

[Rhubarbo]

I just read the Sakurai article in Nintendo Power today...he calls Brawl a party game...end of debate.

 

[Chrono Centaur]

Guys, Sakurai made the game

so whining about how he did it wrong? ur doin it wrong ;__;

sorry to ruin your fun, but no one gives a ****

 

[Takeshi245]

I just read the Sakurai article in Nintendo Power today...he calls Brawl a party game...end of debate.

Yeah...that settles it. Of course, your post will probably be ignored anyways.

 

[SiegKnight]

Takeshi. A post being ignored here? ahahahahaha THATS ABSURD. ITS A THREAD WITH 1-15901-9515901051 POSTS. ITS PROBABLY NEVER HAPPENED.

Honestly I don't see that directors cut opinion of Sakurai's as a debate ender as much as a blanket statement for the combat system as a whole which you pulled up in a desperate attempt to escape this ridiculous subject, which I'm sure you want to do because you're likely sane to some small extent and thus realize this is a melee suckoff thread in the brawl board, and that its being littered with trolls and anti troll attempts like this one brutal enough to end up leaving the same bitter taste in peoples mouths that trolling causes in the first place. Sad as its neccesarry for my posts to be valid counter arguments, too.

Though I don't advocate your reasoning, I sympathise with your cause. My answer? Yes, this debate is shiiit and needs to stop, and you are right in doing everything from sacrificing your logic to suicide in getting away from it. Alternatively you could post at somewhere decent like allisbrawl. No daamn idea guys.

No johns.

10characters

Yeah, totally disregarding a valid argument as an excuse is a great way to step away from the elitism that SRK so badly has alot to do with, apparentally. Try thinking? Its an incredibly powerful AT that has several variations discovered so far.

It makes all sorts of games fun, and also makes you stop blanket accusing entire, reasonable posts and writing them off like a... you know, troll, and actually allows you to discern one thing from another.

Chances are you're awful at debates, chess and street fighter all alike, pretty much.

 

[NES n00b]

Yeah, totally disregarding a valid argument as an excuse is a great way to step away from the elitism that SRK so badly has alot to do with, apparentally. Try thinking? Its an incredibly powerful AT that has several variations discovered so far. It makes all sorts of games fun, and also makes you stop blanket accusing entire, reasonable posts and writing them off like a... you know, troll, and actually allows you to discern one thing from another.

Chances are you're awful at both chess and street fighter.

Who is this even towards? lol

I have to admit Sakurai saying a game is a party game doesn't limit it to a party game as it is what the players make out of it and Sakurai is not infallible.

No "your awful at both chess and street fighter" johns.

Edit: You don't even get the joke. I am dissappointed. No johns about not knowing that Yuna was guy. Again, no misunderstanding johns.

 

[Takeshi245]

Sacrificing my own logic? I wasn't doing so. What that guy said was true. Sakurai wanted to close the gap between advanced and new players. That's why he got rid of the techniques. He's appealing more to the casual gamer. Just look at Nintendo's philosophy as of right now. There's that, and tripping is stupid. He doesn't want this game to be competitive. However, that doesn't mean we can't have tournaments because of it. Sakurai doesn't dictate what we can do with this game. The matches just won't be as technical as Melee and chances are campfests are going to be common.

 

[SiegKnight]

Ohs. Sorry, I thought you were being serious. Naw. yeah, I understand that. Sakurai isn't some sort of perfect subhuman with analytical abilities on par of a rocket scientist, he's more like an insane monkey on a type writer.

I do have to say hit stun is easily the worst fight he could've picked with us on, but its not really the be all and end all, as tricks being discovered day in and day out prove. Just a hunch, but the fact so many of them are situation specific and mostly useless except for some situations means we might have to build up an immense library of almost useless techniques for each character, and abuse them. If tons and tons get discovered.

I sure hope it develops, but hope can't make it happen and disbelief can't stop it if it doesn't.

Thats my point.

Uh, sorry for assuming dude. I wanted to add an 'in case' argument before but didn't want to come off convulted. (Ironically this post is more convulted.)

 

[Rhubarbo]

Ohs. Sorry, I thought you were being serious. Naw. yeah, I understand that. Sakurai isn't some sort of perfect subhuman with analytical abilities on par of a rocket scientist, he's more like an insane monkey on a type writer.

I do have to say hit stun is easily the worst fight he could've picked with us on, but its not really the be all and end all, as tricks being discovered day in and day out prove. Just a hunch, but the fact so many of them are situation specific and mostly useless except for some situations means we might have to build up an immense library of almost useless techniques for each character, and abuse them. If tons and tons get discovered.

I sure hope it develops, but hope can't make it happen and disbelief can't stop it if it doesn't.

Thats my point.

Uh, sorry for assuming dude. I wanted to add an 'in case' argument before but didn't want to come off convulted. (Ironically this post is more convulted.)

To pull off a combo in Melee, you needed character knowledge, in Brawl, it's like a struggle even if you pull off the correct moves. It's frustrating that when I score a hit, my foe isn't punished.

 

[Yuna]

SiegKnight, no matter how many Wall of Texts you write repeating the same things and saying things that could easily be said using 3 sentences won't change the fact that you're wrong and that between the two of us, you're at least ten times the troll I could ever be.

 

[Yuna]

*shotalink*

 

[NES n00b]

Smashboards fails again. Double posts all around and the children cheer.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

^2x for emphasis!

Let's get to 1000 pages!!! Maybe Sakurai's brain will explode!

Honestly Sieg, when the meta doesn't expand in the future, you'll finally come to terms with what we're saying. If time is the only thing that'll convince you, so be it.

A whole slew of us have been saying this since day 1... the game isn't going anywhere. If anything, we're just going to make it broken, and not in a fun way.

It's been... what, three months since the Japanese version? We've had crazy frame data since the first week, there's all these semi useless techs and semi useful lag cancels, but nothing really makes the game better.

It's not going to improve. I'd put money on it.

The fact that you're thinking about trying Melee explains everything. You really don't belong in this discussion if you don't have a feel for the evolution of Smash. Comparing it to other fighters is useful in terms of offensive/defensive balance and effects on competiveness, but if you don't have the experience, you're not going to understand.

Go play Melee for... oh... at least a year. Then come back.

 

[Oracle]

I really don't see how the game is that much worse than melee competitively.

Sure, brawl is a party game, but originally, wasn't melee? Combo's are a lot harder, but still possible. Gameplay is slowed down, but that's because Sakurai wanted it to be easier to pick up and learn with out a newbie getting slaughtered. I think that the metagame will just be easier to learn and pick up.

These are just my opinions. Nothing against any of you guys who think differently.

 

[DMAJohnson]

sorry to ruin your fun, but no one gives a ****

If no one gives a ****, then why is this thread going on a hundred pages long?

 

[SunriseW12]

If no one gives a ****, then why is this thread going on a hundred pages long?

I really dont know.

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

Hey, gimpy, Im turning the entire 1st post into a shirt. I walk around with it on, I hate brawl so so much. especially now, thank you. +rep

 

[Jack Kieser]

I really don't see the point of hating anything. I mean, there are parts of all three Smash games I don't like, and I do have a favorite (hint: ...I'm not telling), but that doesn't mean that I have to hate any game... nor, in my opinion, should anyone. Hating Brawl for its flaws accomplishes nothing (note that 'hate' and 'dislike' are two different things), just like hating Melee for the way it is helps no one, either. I think people really do forget that you always have a choice to not play Brawl (though people usually play the victim so much, and like playing the victim so much, that they can't help but make it seem like we're forcing Melee into non-existence)... but there are those people out there who feel that it's their way, and if it isn't then the rest of the world must be 'f*cked up'.

 

[Reaver197]

The issue, at least how I feel about it, is not that I want to prove that Melee is a better game, that Brawl "sucks", or show how much I hate it. Really, what the issue is that essentially, in all the scuffle and excitement over Brawl, Melee is being shunted to the waysides, where it has the very real danger of becoming ignored than dying out, especially with the advocation Brawl as the new competitive standard of the Smash community.

I'm sure this is not being done by any intentional means, but is simply the by product over the attention Brawl is receiving. What I'm, we're, trying to accomplish is to essentially ensure that Melee does not die out, especially in the competitive scene, where it has far more competitive credentials than Brawl does.

I would never dream of forcing someone to like or play a game they wouldn't want to, or make them stop playing one that they do. That is not my, or I think many of the other pro-Melee posters, aim. I enjoy Brawl, despite my gripes about it, but I just don't think that it deserves to dominate the competitive scene, shunting away Melee.

 

[Jack Kieser]

The issue, at least how I feel about it, is not that I want to prove that Melee is a better game, that Brawl "sucks", or show how much I hate it. Really, what the issue is that essentially, in all the scuffle and excitement over Brawl, Melee is being shunted to the waysides, where it has the very real danger of becoming ignored than dying out, especially with the advocation Brawl as the new competitive standard of the Smash community.

I'm sure this is not being done by any intentional means, but is simply the by product over the attention Brawl is receiving. What I'm, we're, trying to accomplish is to essentially ensure that Melee does not die out, especially in the competitive scene, where it has far more competitive credentials than Brawl does.

I would never dream of forcing someone to like or play a game they wouldn't want to, or make them stop playing one that they do. That is not my, or I think many of the other pro-Melee posters, aim. I enjoy Brawl, despite my gripes about it, but I just don't think that it deserves to dominate the competitive scene, shunting away Melee.

Which is perfectly understandable... but I still don't see a reason to be worried. Logically, the determining factor in which game will be more prevalent (or rather, whether or not Melee will continue to be prevalent) is the tournament organizers. They hold the key to Brawl's failure or success, not the people; if I've learned anything on these boards its that very few people (comparatively) have the drive to do anything on their own and would much rather just wait for someone with a blue username to host a tournament for them. If that's really the case (and I have no reason to think it's not), then Melee should have no problem because the majority of above stated blue-named individuals that I've seen posting passionately object to even having Brawl played competitively at all. If these people continue to host nothing but Melee tournaments, then, in theory, problem solved. There won't be Brawl tournaments to go to, hence people will either be forced to continue to play Melee (because there won't be much of ann alternative) or host their own Brawl tournaments (a positive, but unlikely, scenario).

 

[h1roshi]

very good read. it was nice to see all the comments and views sakurai had.

-hiro

 

[Reaver197]

Which is perfectly understandable... but I still don't see a reason to be worried. Logically, the determining factor in which game will be more prevalent (or rather, whether or not Melee will continue to be prevalent) is the tournament organizers. They hold the key to Brawl's failure or success, not the people; if I've learned anything on these boards its that very few people (comparatively) have the drive to do anything on their own and would much rather just wait for someone with a blue username to host a tournament for them. If that's really the case (and I have no reason to think it's not), then Melee should have no problem because the majority of above stated blue-named individuals that I've seen posting passionately object to even having Brawl played competitively at all. If these people continue to host nothing but Melee tournaments, then, in theory, problem solved. There won't be Brawl tournaments to go to, hence people will either be forced to continue to play Melee (because there won't be much of ann alternative) or host their own Brawl tournaments (a positive, but unlikely, scenario).

Unfortunately, the prevalence of Melee in the competitive scene seems to be waning, from as far as I can tell. The weeklies nearby where I live have gone Brawl only it seems, EVO has seems to picked up Brawl instead of Melee, and, in general, there seems to be more tournaments and more attention focused on Brawl. Of course, it might all be short lived, but to still let Melee get pushed to the wayside will prove detrimental to it in some way, shape, or form.

Also, even the layout of Smashboards seems to indicate, and add, less attention to Melee by the fact that the Brawl section is immediately apparent, with many boards, while the Melee section has to be scrolled to, past several other sections, and has much fewer boards on it.

I hate to sound argumentative and contrarian, though. I also dislike having to post such things in a board that doesn't really want them, but it's unfortunately the only real way to get some attention to Melee, to be bald about it.

 

[Namenlos]

To me it is that the big tournaments have completely dismissed Melee. If they had just kept both Melee and Brawl then I would be the happiest person

 

[Corigames]

Try thinking? Its an incredibly powerful AT that has several variations discovered so far.

Practice what you preach never sounded so befitting before.

 

[LOL_Master]

yeah why nawt, melee and brawl at big tournies...2 venues though

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I wonder how long tourneys with both games will last...

I'm guessing tourneys will simply wind up varying by region, given time.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Unfortunately, the prevalence of Melee in the competitive scene seems to be waning, from as far as I can tell. The weeklies nearby where I live have gone Brawl only it seems, EVO has seems to picked up Brawl instead of Melee, and, in general, there seems to be more tournaments and more attention focused on Brawl. Of course, it might all be short lived, but to still let Melee get pushed to the wayside will prove detrimental to it in some way, shape, or form.

Also, even the layout of Smashboards seems to indicate, and add, less attention to Melee by the fact that the Brawl section is immediately apparent, with many boards, while the Melee section has to be scrolled to, past several other sections, and has much fewer boards on it.

I hate to sound argumentative and contrarian, though. I also dislike having to post such things in a board that doesn't really want them, but it's unfortunately the only real way to get some attention to Melee, to be bald about it.

I don't wish to sound condesending, but you just proved my point. The weeklies in your area, if I have read correctly, have phased Melee out in favor of Brawl... but who really did that? The people who hosted said weeklies. They are the ones who are controlling what game will be played, not the people. If there is Smash, people will come. It's naive of us to think that people won't go to a tournament if Brawl isn't there, just like it's naive to think the same thing with Melee.

 

[thumbswayup]

I don't see how brawl can be a main event at any tourny that's more than one day. There's no way it can hold anyone's attention for that long. It should be a side event while melee is the main.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Here's a better question: has it yet been the main event at a tournament lasting more than one day? If not, then how can we make that assumption? (Protip: we can't)

 

[thumbswayup]

Yes, but even you can't deny how unbelievably boring it is to watch brawl matches. In melee, that was half the fun. Whenever you weren't playing friendlies you were watching people better than you play to learn from them. That and the HOLY **** moments when a crazy epic combo was pulled off. These never occur in brawl.

 

[Jack Kieser]

It's boring watching Brawl matches? I didn't know that. Sure, I don't yell out as much, but I have that more reserved suspenseful feeling, kind of like when I'm watching a game of cards or golf. I can appreciate that Brawl gives me a different feeling than Melee does, and I enjoy them both.

 

[Cyrlous]

WHEW, I finally read the whole topic! That's right, I finished evry post! (Well, some of the Wall o' Text posts I skimmed through to get the main points). I gotta say, what a waste of my life. Seriously, I can't believe I did that ><. While I do have a better understanding of both sides of this debate now, I think I could've learned all I needed to know within the first ten or twenty pages.

Anyways, moving on, I noticed that Gimpy created the topic but hasn't been back since, which seems rather odd to me for some reason. I also noticed that the debate for the last 80 or so pages has had almost nothing to do with the original topic.

ON TOPIC: Yeah, I think it's pretty stinking ridiculous that Sakurai would actually enter into the business of making this game with the mindset of trying to actively destroy the competitive aspects. I posted earlier about my personal hatred of tripping. Even though I am an extremely casual player in every sense of the word, this tripping mechanism makes me want to break my controller in half every single time it happens. I only have played in single player modes so far ( I have no game playing friends but whatever) and tripping has been a huge irritation to me. A mechanism like tripping which just randomly strips away control of your character affects people negatively at all levels, from the most competitive to the most casual. I have lost in classic and all-star modes on several occasions because of tripping.

Beyond that, just the fact that he has such an absurd "everybody wins" mentality is ********. News flash Sakurai, everybody DOESN'T win, not even in Brawl despite your best efforts to the contrary. There is a winner, and everyone else is the loser (except in teams, but then there is one winning team). Even as a casual player I STILL LIKE TO WIN. Adding in some assinine mechanism like tripping doesn't make me like losing any better. I don't say "Well, I lost but OMFG the tripping is so funny I feel like a winner anyways!!!!!" In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Also, I was never a competitive player in Melee, but I enjoyed the hell out of it. I was never even aware that there was a competitive scene until right around November '07 when I first found out about Brawl (Yeah, I don't keep up very well ) and that's also when I found out about all of these advanced techs and saw some of the amazing videos on You Tube. I played and enjoyed Melee just fine and loved it without ever knowing these things. And even after I found out, I still enjoyed it.

So, yeah, Sakurai your silly anti-competitive mindset isn't of benefit to anyone, since casual players such as myself will enjoy the game anyways (except fot the ****ED TRIPPING!) and competitive player just wind up getting the shaft. You, sir, are delusional and completely illogical in your thinking.

 

[thumbswayup]

Yeah most people find them boring to watch. I'll only watch if there's an amazing sonic playing cause he's the only character that can come close to melee speed lol

 

[Dark Sonic]

WHEW, I finally read the whole topic! That's right, I finished evry post! (Well, some of the Wall o' Text posts I skimmed through to get the main points). I gotta say, what a waste of my life. Seriously, I can't believe I did that ><. While I do have a better understanding of both sides of this debate now, I think I could've learned all I needed to know within the first ten or twenty pages.

Anyways, moving on, I noticed that Gimpy created the topic but hasn't been back since, which seems rather odd to me for some reason. I also noticed that the debate for the last 80 or so pages has had almost nothing to do with the original topic.

ON TOPIC: Yeah, I think it's pretty stinking ridiculous that Sakurai would actually enter into the business of making this game with the mindset of trying to actively destroy the competitive aspects. I posted earlier about my personal hatred of tripping. Even though I am an extremely casual player in every sense of the word, this tripping mechanism makes me want to break my controller in half every single time it happens. I only have played in single player modes so far ( I have no game playing friends but whatever) and tripping has been a huge irritation to me. A mechanism like tripping which just randomly strips away control of your character affects people negatively at all levels, from the most competitive to the most casual. I have lost in classic and all-star modes on several occasions because of tripping.

Beyond that, just the fact that he has such an absurd "everybody wins" mentality is ********. News flash Sakurai, everybody DOESN'T win, not even in Brawl despite your best efforts to the contrary. There is a winner, and everyone else is the loser (except in teams, but then there is one winning team). Even as a casual player I STILL LIKE TO WIN. Adding in some assinine mechanism like tripping doesn't make me like losing any better. I don't say "Well, I lost but OMFG the tripping is so funny I feel like a winner anyways!!!!!" In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Also, I was never a competitive player in Melee, but I enjoyed the hell out of it. I was never even aware that there was a competitive scene until right around November '07 when I first found out about Brawl (Yeah, I don't keep up very well ) and that's also when I found out about all of these advanced techs and saw some of the amazing videos on You Tube. I played and enjoyed Melee just fine and loved it without ever knowing these things. And even after I found out, I still enjoyed it.

So, yeah, Sakurai your silly anti-competitive mindset isn't of benefit to anyone, since casual players such as myself will enjoy the game anyways (except fot the ****ED TRIPPING!) and competitive player just wind up getting the shaft. You, sir, are delusional and completely illogical in your thinking.

Yay for logic.

 

[SiegKnight]

Fighting games have to be about winning purely or we'd not have so many immature, unwelcoming losers making the games stink of crap and flaming each other. Unfortunately since there aren't many dickhats playing Brawl, its a bad fighting game. I'm not just being sarcastic either; generally the more complex a fighting game and the more competetive it is, the more people act like immature elitist *******. In fact I'm the only street fighter player I've met willing to lend a hand to the newer groups of players.

Considering this I fully sympathise with Sakurai's decision to cut the melee out of brawl even if the result is useless for me to play personally, at least... As it is right now. It'll gain its own identity competetively if and only if it develops. Yuna, you're not right; even someone posting after you recognised what I said and gave me a proper point.

For that person, yes~! You're right, the fact I'm considering melee explains that... Wow, I'm considering playing a currently, more technical game. Whoopdidoo. As for you saying only time is needed to convince me... Yes, time is all that is required to convince me. And you, being another useless player arguing for nothing here and advocating the trolling, cannot fast forward time. None of us can.

I don't think a year of melee experience is required for me to pick up a game. I pick up most fighting and competetive games within weeks and hold my own via mere spacing skill against strong players. Yet a year wouldn't be anywhere near quick enough to master it, however. I feel strongly in tune with your idea that Smash has an evolution of its own that must be touched upon, but who says Brawl can't evolve like its own fighter instead?

All Sakurai in particular did was remove the Melee from Brawl. Melee wasn't Melee before it came out and got discovered, see. Brawl likely won't be Brawl for another few years of consistent, advanced play and creative use of the games framework. It'd be nice if the Melee was kept in it, but Sakurai himself is not infallible and cannot predict the future of what brawl will become any better than you guys can.

More competetive or less? I doubt more competetive, but if it does become 'good' at least, it'll be for something completely different than either 64 or Melee was in tune with. That means no DI predictive combos, less universal techniques, and likely no lag reduction for movement or attacks. Sorry, but Sakurai did his best to remove what made 64 and Melee competetive and has for the most part succeeded, but he can't tell what, specific to this game, will make it competetive in its own right, if anything.

And thats where no experience with Melee or 64, even years and years of it, could change my stance on this. Its funny that most of your posts, despite coming off on top at first and coming from people who think they have me figured out, are actually food for thought and a reason why I'm right, to me. Saying that it has nothing from 64 or Melee, things which made them competetive, work in my favor just fine. So does giving time as an example factor for convincing me.

Most of what all of you say works in perfect clockwork with everything my posts plan out in foresight, and it makes me laugh. I even said this is technically the first 'real' sequel Smash has got, especially since Melee came out so quickly after 64, and its the first time a sequel came out many years after, once its prequels were matured and likely Sakurai is far from his previous game design philosophy. Of course there'll be panic. Of course its possible for the game to mess up and kill itself with time.

But it can't become tactical in its own right?

 

[NES n00b]

Fighting games have to be about winning purely or we'd not have so many immature, unwelcoming losers making the games stink of crap and flaming each other. Unfortunately since there aren't many *******s playing Brawl, its a bad fighting game. I'm not just being sarcastic either; generally the more complex a fighting game and the more competetive it is, the more people act like immature elitist *******. In fact I'm the only street fighter player I've met willing to lend a hand to the newer groups of players.

Considering this I fully sympathise with Sakurai's decision to cut the melee out of brawl even if the result is useless for me to play personally, at least... As it is right now. It'll gain its own identity competetively if it develops.

HAHAHAHAHA, our community is a little better (**** it, most of us help new members that are willing to try instead of being whiny) than that and also there is alot of *****es playing Brawl. I will not name them in fear of being flamed by their fans. lol

 

[SiegKnight]

edited my post to add the rest of my jack**** onto it, I pressed post too early.

And no you don't. Shut up. I've seen someone start a thread on dedede's chain throw asking for help and the first reply was 'try turning down the suck.' Olololz.

 

[NES n00b]

edited my post to add the rest of my jack**** onto it, I pressed post too early.

And no you don't. Shut up. I've seen someone start a thread on dedede's chain throw asking for help and the first reply was 'try turning down the suck.' Olololz.

LOLZ, awesome. Regional Zones are the only good boards period. The people there will help you if you actually show up to your regional tourney. These boards uhhhhh, not good. Alot of them will never go to a tourney anyways.

 

[SiegKnight]

I see. I generally just get bugged on msn to go to smashfests around the area or london so I never used them, nice to see somewhere actually sane though.

whats your stance on melee and brawl anyway? curious. I don't care or mind what it could be, just let rip. I'm bored.