Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[House M.D.]

Ixninjax, really? I go to Yale (seriously) and everyone (the majority of people) plays 64. Maybe it's an east coast-west coast thing. Nonetheless, I suspect casual players will prefer brawl to melee (although it may be true that he could have satisfied both crowds).

 

[Embrio]

Well were going around in circles when in reality the truth is very simple. Regardless of wat we try to do, Brawl was intended to be limited at high level play. Sak has done everything in his power toi ensure that competitve players will not be able to progress past a certain point. The harsh turth is that amongst the hardcore competitive guys...Brawl will fade away pretty soon.

 

[Linkplayer5678]

Who said I wasn't serious?

SMASH BROS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!1!!oneshift!11

 

[thumbswayup]

That's what a lot of us are saying. Melee *should* remain the competitive standard for Smash.

But understand why we are upset. Despite how awesome Melee is, it is not particularly well-balanced. If Sakurai had set out with the mindset of buffing what sucked about Melee instead of nerfing everything that was usable, then we could have ended up with an extremely balanced, highly skillful game that would have created a huge tournament scene and left Melee in the dust.

It's not even hard to figure out how to make such a game. Look at Pichu for a second. Who the hell decided to design Pichu? Luckily he's easy to fix. Make him as fast as Captain Falcon and increase the size of his hitboxes and you have a viable character despite his flaws.

It's the bulls#it philosophy of nerfing anything one can use to gain an advantage that is why we're calling Sakurai a scrub. At E for All you were able to dash-dance and L-cancelling still existed (in a form). There was hit stun and comboes! Apparently Sakurai studied the things people were doing to gain an advantage and DELAYED THE GAME so that those things could be "fixed."

This is not an effective marketing strategy. Don't act like it is. We all know the competitive players are the extreme minority, but that's not the point. Sakurai put in EXTRA DEVELOPMENT TIME specifically to alienate fans, not for profit-motivation, but because of his "everyone is a winner" philosophy. Melee sold what, six million copies? That sure as hell wasn't based on advanced techs. The overwhelming majority of buyers didn't know advanced techs and still don't. Their enjoyment of the game is COMPLETELY UNAFFECTED. The fact that I can do drillshines to JC usmash in no way keeps casual players from playing their FFAs with items on very high. The fact that I can COMBO PEOPLE to death in no way prevents casual players from chucking bobombs at each other and randomly swinging beam swords.

The casual players are Smash fans regardless. Their enjoyment is not affected by the absence or presence of advanced techs because they neither use the advanced techs nor interact significantly (except for a vocal minority of scrubs) with the competitive community. But it is the competitive players and only the competitive players who Sakurai alienates when he pulls some bull**** like REMOVING COMBOES from the game. I don't play with scrubs, and I doubt most of us would enjoy wrecking 4-year olds over the WIFI, so what the f*ck is Sakurai's problem?

What a piece of sh*t, seriously. I f*cking hate Nintendo. Some company that isn't ruled by a scrub mentality needs to just steal/copy Melee's platform engine and put their own characters in it. I really don't give a **** if I'm playing as Star Fox or some character I've never heard of. It's the gameplay that counts.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[ZenJestr]

game speed doesnt regulate competitiveness (unless Slow-Mo Brawl with ALL CLOCKS! is standard)...

its extremely easy to please casuals..as long as theres a relatively fun gimmick to keep them occupied, then the game is gold. But the moment the consumer asks for a little variety, depth, and stuff to promote skill along with the funny, 'have-a-good-time' humor that comes with a Bomb-Omb smacking you in the face as you randomly trip into an Electrode...its blasphemy....wtfbbqhotsauceveggiewrappotatoepiecerealbuns


thats like if one day the people who regulate the rules of some sport...(Ill use american football as an example despite my sever lack of interest in the sport)....like football...suddenly makes a rule that every 10 yards, the quarterback has to flip a coin with the other teams quarterback and if it lands on tails, he/she gets a point...oh and btw the field is made of wet ice, not grass, so it can "balance" out the game so anyone can win and everyone can be happy as its littered with explosives, sea urchins, caged, starved, rabid animals with loose cages that'll break open with a single flick, giant mallets, and random food items kicked around......

 

[Pink Reaper]

thats like if one day the people who regulate the rules of some sport...(Ill use american football as an example despite my sever lack of interest in the sport)....like football...suddenly makes a rule that every 10 yards, the quarterback has to flip a coin with the other teams quarterback and if it lands on tails, he/she gets a point...oh and btw the field is made of wet ice, not grass, so it can "balance" out the game so anyone can win and everyone can be happy as its littered with explosives, sea urchins, caged, starved, rabid animals with loose cages that'll break open with a single flick, giant mallets, and random food items kicked around......

I would so ****ing watch that.

 

[M.K]

I absolutely DESPISE Reggie Fils-Aime WITH A FIERY PASSION! He can burn in the deepest pits of hell for all I care.

"You WILL be brawling in 2007!"

WTF.

 

[Zarckoh]

I don't like Sakurai's mentality about competitiveness, but I still have faith that Brawl can become very depth.

 

[LavisFiend]

I would so ****ing watch that.

It would NEVER be televised.

I am still waiting for George Carlin's idea of a suicide channel to be made.

I totally want to watch people jump off a cliff and kill themselves.

 

[The Blackstar]

Thats so true. People should stop at that line and realize this.

Also, I'm amazed. Some people think the guy is a bad game designer because he promotes FUN instead of competition. This is absurd, its mind boggling that people can think that way.

Because if you didn't know, games have been made for fun, not for competition.

People then decide to compete with it. People shouldn't even be whining about something like that. You compete or you don't, thats your choice, get in or get out of the competitive scene of Brawl. There is nothing else to argue about anymore.

People are calling Sakurai a bad game designer because he promotes fun and apparently tries to kill tournament-style play. Why would you do that? Why would you, seemingly, intentionally alienate an entire fanbase segment?

If Sakurai's idea is to promote fun, then he FAILED. He failed miserably. The people who are complaining nonstop about brawl not being competitive are angry because THEIR version of fun got the axe.

I absolutely love melee because of the 2 different worlds that existed. I could play 1v1 tournament style for serious hair-raising matches, and we could turn on items, funny stages, free for alls and laugh until there were tears in our eyes.

 

[Linkplayer5678]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j5Ryo804Yg4

 

[Rhambo]

I feel sorry for Sakurai when you guys constantly bash him... c'mon he's been working really hard to give us an amazing game be grateful... and capitalize his name please, it's disrespectful when you don't.

 

[BlackYoshi7]

I didn't follow E4All Vids that much, but was there seriously L cancelling and dashdancing in that version? And the delay was to remove that? Jeez.

 

[LavisFiend]

W-W-WHAT?! XDDD

 

[SenorPresidente]

I feel sorry for Sakurai when you guys constantly bash him... c'mon he's been working really hard to give us an amazing game be grateful... and capitalize his name please, it's disrespectful when you don't.

I didn't get brawl for free. I payed for it. He maid a product and i am the consumer. Don't i have the right to complain if i am displeased with the end product and no i have no problems with the lack of depth with brawl etc. Either way this is really just a whole different can of worms.

 

[Pink Reaper]

yeah, there was legitimate Dash Dancing in the Demo, and L-canceling(although the way it worked actually makes me think it was just a glitch) There was also more hit stun, but I guess they had to get rid of that so you can't get comboed to death because then you would lose and feel bad. Instead they added tripping so you could get Fsmashed by Ike and lose and feel bad.

 

[BlargCow]

Melee was really fun for me. Even when I lost. I wasn't a really competitive player, but I knew and used advanced techniques. I think it's stupid to dumb down Brawl to make the worse players have a better chance at winning. The players who spend more time at a game to be better should win. Now we have this tripping garbage to make the game more "balanced." Brawl is still fun though.

 

[Pwnography]

Look, Mookie! Here come the 4channers.

So I'm a 4chan visitor automatically for wanting a game to be fun.

 

[BreakBones]

I feel sorry for Sakurai when you guys constantly bash him... c'mon he's been working really hard to give us an amazing game be grateful... and capitalize his name please, it's disrespectful when you don't.

he's been working really hard to give casuals an amazing game and he made the multiplayer slower and more boring...he pretty much gave us a giant middle finger. So he doesn't deserve any respect imo.

now my thoughts;


1. he's thinking like everyone gets pissed if they lose...not everyone has a short temper.

2. he's also thinking that if you suck "i don't want someone to be disappointed if they're 10,000th in the ladder" you won't have a need to get better?

By knowing this I would have to say Sakurai's a short tempered, boring "i don't get interested in watching sports", shallow person who thinks that everyone thinks the same as he does. and..maybe a little creative, but i'de have to say the bad out weighs the good. I mean really how self centered can you be he left Nintendo too...wtf how high and mighty does this guy think he is?

P.S. I forgot to say he doesn't think of the customers at all (or should I say the people who actually enjoy playing the game), so he's a bad business man, Nintendo's too good for him anyway I'm glad he left.

 

[BlackYoshi7]

yeah, there was legitimate Dash Dancing in the Demo, and L-canceling(although the way it worked actually makes me think it was just a glitch) There was also more hit stun, but I guess they had to get rid of that so you can't get comboed to death because then you would lose and feel bad. Instead they added tripping so you could get Fsmashed by Ike and lose and feel bad.

Nah, I remember tripping was in it, just Gimpyfish and those guys didn't understand how it worked at that point and thought the pivot grab was a trip cancel or "ink drop" or some ****.

 

[whoady4shoady]

Also note how no one plays Halo 3 now.

Our GAMING COLLEGE went from being Halo 2 oriented to NOTHING Halo. Halo 3 killed Halo for our school.

I fear the same awaits Brawl.

To be honest I think COD4 put Halo 3 in its place quick fast and in a hurry. I mean Halo 3 really isnt fun at all. 1 was fun, and 2 was decent with a short single player, but 3 was just bad. I really dont think Brawl is that bad.

 

[Razorsaw]

Who said I wasn't serious?

Common sense.

 

[RDK]

So I'm a 4chan visitor automatically for wanting a game to be fun.

Yeah, pretty much, based on the fact that half of you joined in the past year and have less than 10 posts.

Seems like classic Forechan to me.

 

[Razorsaw]

Post count serves to do nothing other than give people a bigger virtual p****. What's your point?

 

[DRaGZ]

Everyone should try out Heavy Brawl...

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158712

It's much much better. >_>

 

[KamiNathan]

When my brother and I were younger, my brother refused to play
Super Smash Brothers Melee with me at all because I would always beat him,
and he would always lose.
He would always argue that it is not fun because he always loses.
Because he wouldn't play, I had nobody to play against and thus had
no reason to play away. This resulted in Super Smash Bros Melee to
be put away in a box indefinitely.

I guess this is the type of attitude that Sakurai wanted to avoid.

(Thats right, he's not trying to "cater" to casual gamers"
-He's only trying to avoid situations like this, although he may have
went to the extreme...)




So the game got put away indefinitely... until I descovered
competitive Smash matches on Youtube and then the Smash
World Forums and advanced tecniques. Because of this new
competitive aspect, my brother and I dusted off Super Smash Brothers
Melee and started to play again and learn the new techniques.
I played fox after watching tournament videos of him and ShinedBlind.
My brother took up Marth because the best player in the world, Ken,
uses Marth. My brother even started to beat me in the majority of the
matches, but it was fun.

No doubt that some of this can be attributed to us being more mature
from growing up, but the competitive aspect definitely
had a large impact in saving our interest in Smash Bros.


Still, Sakurai's attitude and determination in eliminating as much of
the competitive aspect of Brawl will save situations like in my first statement,
but attempting to completely eliminate the competitive aspect is taking
it too far.




In Melee, I'm a casual player who plays competitively with my friends and I've
learned the advanced tecniques, although I've never been to a tournament. I
will (of course) stick to Brawl because Brawl is an upgrade to Melee in
graphics, etc. I won't think any less of Brawl than Melee (although tripping
is stupid) but I'm only posting in this topic because of the
importance this is to some people and I want to input my 2 cents.

 

[masterbraz]

the competitive communtiy are the ones who support the game the most. we were the ones checkin every dojo update. We were the ones who followed the game from day 1. Even if the game sucked most of us would have still bought it. For these reasons, it's sakurai's duty to make a game that still appeals to us. He's turning his back on us with brawl. It's insulting. I understand no rankings, but when even my friends and i can't compare whose best because of crap like tripping, then i have a problem. Sakurai laid the foundation for smash and should be respected. However if another sequel comes, they need a new developer to build on this foundation. The only thing keeping the game competitive is the community.

 

[Razorsaw]

the competitive communtiy are the ones who support the game the most.

For the umpteenth time, this is both untrue and IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

How so? The competitive community are the people who played this game religiously for 6 or 7 years. The millions of others played it for a few months and then got tired of it. Three months before Brawl came out they remembered it and played it for another three months.

 

[RDK]

How so? The competitive community are the people who played this game religiously for 6 or 7 years. The millions of others played it for a few months and then got tired of it. Three months before Brawl came out they remembered it and played it for another three months.

Don't waste your time. They don't listen to logic. I've tried that one already.

 

[Razorsaw]

And you can quantify that it was just the competitive players that stayed with the fandom all this time and played it?

And even if you can, all it proves is that you have a lot of time devoted to a video game. What's your point? You want a medal? It doesn't really contribute to the earnings of the franchise, AND it doesn't really do much else to keep the fandom that matters alive.

You guys are basically just saying you're deserving because you stayed around a long time.

 

[Pink Reaper]

And you can quantify that it was just the competitive players that stayed with the fandom all this time and played it?

And even if you can, all it proves is that you have a lot of time devoted to a video game. What's your point? You want a medal? It doesn't really contribute to the earnings of the franchise, AND it doesn't really do much else to keep the fandom that matters alive.

You guys are basically just saying you're deserving because you stayed around a long time.

As opposed to people like you who assume they deserve an easier game because you did......nothing?

 

[Lumpy..]

I love you.

You too



man there is a lot of love going on in this thread



But I have to agree with OrlanduEX, I love you lumpy

I love you.

Smashboards

The internet LOVE machine.

um...
i just wanna thank all of my fans...
you guys have made this a loving site for all...
despite all the trash talking, i heart the boards...

i win...
thank you...
hahahahaaha

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Well Gimpy, I find this true, but...

Why the hell did my topic get locked despite the amount of detail I put in the initial post?

I guess the mods favor popularity over intelligence, which in my opinion, is a blatant contradiction considering that you see many other repeated topics not get locked.

Other than my complaint, the discussion at hand is an important one. And i'll address it later.

^_^

 

[Mephianse]

Every body should star playing with High Gravity Mode on, it's a completly different game and combos are back!

It's not trying to make Brawl another Melee, it's just trying to make it a better game.

LET'S PLAY COMPETITIVE SMASH!

 

[Gojira]

here is a light touch on depth by Sirlin

I've talked about how the expert player is not bound by rules of "honor" or "cheapness" and simply plays to maximize his chances of winning. When he plays against other such players, "game theory" emerges. If the game is a good one, it will become deeper and deeper and more strategic. Poorly designed games will become shallower and shallower. This is the difference between an arcade game that lasts years in an arcade versus one that lasts 4 months. This is the difference between a PC game that lasts years on the shelves (Starcraft) versus one that quickly becomes boring (I won't name any names). The point is that if a game becomes "no fun" at high levels of play, then it's the game's fault, not the player's. Unfortunately, a game becoming less fun because it's poorly designed and you just losing because you're a scrub kind of look alike. You'll have to play some top players and do some soul searching to decide which is which. But if it really is the game's fault, there are plenty of other games that are excellent at a high level of play. For games that truly aren't good at a high level, the only winning move is not to play.

- Sirlin, playing to win

 

[orintemple]

Sakurai made the game the way he wanted to make the game. It is a exactly how he meant it to be. Just because not everyone else likes it doesn't mean he didn't do what he wanted to. The game is made in such a way that everyone who plays has a a chance to win, at least more so than the way Melee was made.

Whether it is more or less competitive than Melee is not what Sakurai cared about when making the game. he wanted to make a game that everyone wanted to play and have fun with.

No game is created for the sole purpose of being competitive. Not Smash, not Soul Calibur, not Halo, not Street Fighter, nothing. Games are made with the purpose of making money and MAYBE making people happy.

But mostly money.

 

[Darkslash]

I'm going to be ridiculed for this.......................

Does any Fighting game maker wants their game to be competitive in the first place?

 

[LouisLeGros]

I'm going to be ridiculed for this.......................

Does any Fighting game maker wants their game to be competitive in the first place?

yes, a lot of the "traditional" fighting game makers cater quite a bit to their competitive players.

In fact a lot of developers do it, look at Blizzard with Starcraft. Starcraft's competitive play is what made it so hugely successful in Korea (or atleast a major reason for this) and Blizzard wants Starcraft 2 to be just as successful and so they are trying very hard to cater to competitive interests.

 

[Darkslash]

Ohh yea another thing for not adding leader boards. I read a article that most Japanese gamers DO not give a crap about Online play and only LAN and online. It seems that Sakurai was more focused on Japanese gamers than NA gamers.

any ways..... Nintendo is more about parting now. Unlike the gamecube,which was made solely for only gamming, Melee was obviously going to be more for a Hardcore gaming crowd. While the Wii is more for the General audience, Brawl is going to be more n00b friendly. So If the Wii was once again going to be for the HardCore, Brawl might of been more competitive......but this is all speculation.