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Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

L

Lumpy..

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
523
Location
ceres/modesto, CA
brawl is really fun...
it's a great game...
it's FULL of content...
it has plenty of variety and options to KEEP it fun for a long time...

BUT...
i worked harder at melee, and i'm better at brawl...
i don't like that...
i would rather lose all day playing melee than own at a brawl tourney...
Sakurai seems to see losing as discouraging...
i see losing as motivation to improve...
 
Pink Reaper

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
Meta-Kirby said:
Boohoo. You're Brawl isn't your glitch-fest of neutral stages and no items. I'm sorry you aren't happy.
Meanwhile, the millions of other Brawl players will be ECSTATIC that Sakurai took the time to create Brawl.
You ever think of the soundtrack? The graphics? The cutscenes? Stage Builder? Trophies? Stickers? Coin Launcher? Characters? Stages? Items? Assist Trophies? Subspace?
Yeah, this game is packed with content, and you are complaining?
Click to expand...
I love how none of that stuff actually has anything to do with the actual game? None of that stuff will matter for very long so its the actual game play that matters. It would not be that difficult to make a game thats both fun for casuals and deep for competitives(look at pokemon or melee) Once again, you act like everyone who ISN'T on this website just wanted a shallow party game. The fact is that there are alot more people who wanted this game to be a deeper, better version of Melee just so there would be proof that the Wii was more than just a casual party game machine.
 
R

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
Lumpy.. said:
brawl is really fun...
it's a great game...
it's FULL of content...
it has plenty of variety and options to KEEP it fun for a long time...

BUT...
i worked harder at melee, and i'm better at brawl...
i don't like that...
i would rather lose all day playing melee than own at a brawl tourney...
Sakurai seems to see losing as discouraging...
i see losing as motivation to improve...
Click to expand...
Exactly! Defeat isn't necessarily a bad thing--it just separates those who work hard at something from those who don't, and rightly so.

That was the spirit of Melee. You get your *** handed to you, it doesn't mean you should go slit your wrists because you're a total failure. It means get back up and train harder. What Sakurai is basically saying in the convo Gimpy quoted is that it's okay to have no motivation towards becoming better at anything.
 
Shai Hulud

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,495
Location
Oregon
God I wish we had a rating system here. Scrub *** morons like Meta-Kirby would be banned in about 10 seconds.

PrakirJaq, you are correct, I believe the animation is called "landfall special." I made a huge post about the mechanics of wavedashing in another thread. It's not a glitch. Technically none of the exploits we frequently use are glitches, which is rare. But as Mookie said, glitch vs. exploit is just an argument in semantics. In Halo 2, the BXR was probably a glitch, the doubleshot was almost certainly a glitch, yet both widened the skillgap so people used them and didn't complain. Nintendo fans just tend to be scrubbier than other communities.
 
O

OrlanduEX

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
1,029
Meta-Kirby said:
Boohoo. You're Brawl isn't your glitch-fest of neutral stages and no items. I'm sorry you aren't happy.
Meanwhile, the millions of other Brawl players will be ECSTATIC that Sakurai took the time to create Brawl.
You ever think of the soundtrack? The graphics? The cutscenes? Stage Builder? Trophies? Stickers? Coin Launcher? Characters? Stages? Items? Assist Trophies? Subspace?
Yeah, this game is packed with content, and you are complaining?
Click to expand...
Stop kidding yourself, man. All that content you mentioned will last all of 2 months at best for any casual gamer.
The cutscenes are cool for the first 2 or 3 times you see them and then you don't care anymore.
We will forget about the graphical improvement in a few weeks once we get used to it.
Stage builder is shallow and won't be interesting for very long.
Who cares about trophies once you've read them? And getting all of them takes like a few weeks of consistent play. No more than a few months.
Stickers? LOL.
Coin Launcher is boring.
Subspace is good for one or two playthroughs and many will find it to be more of a drudgery than a pleasure.
It's nice that we got some good new characters, but then they had to go and nerf all the old ones. Most veteran characters are simply less interesting than before.
The new items are mostly inconsequential. Smash Balls are a gimmick. Final Smashes only retain their novelty for a few matches. Then it becomes annoying to watch the same animations over and over. Assist trophies aren't a big deal. It just pisses you off that those characters aren't playable.
The new stages are not a big deal.
The only thing they truly improved that is meaningful is the music, and even that won't hold gamers for more than a few months.

All this new content is trivial. What matters above all else is the gameplay. The reason we are playing Melee 6 years after it's release is the amazing gameplay.
Brawl's gameplay has been dumbed down from Melee in every conceivable way. Yea the casual players will enjoy Brawl, but even if it was the "glitch-fest" that Melee was, casuals would STILL enjoy it. There was no reason to suck the competitive aspects out of the game.

And for the record, none of the advanced techs were actually glitches. No. Not even wavedashing. The majority of techs we call advanced techs were programmed into the game intentionally. Wavedashing is just the manipulation of three normal elements of the gameplay: a jump, an air dodge into the ground, and a special slide that results. Note that the "special slide" was intentional.
 
Thino

Thino

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 7, 2006
Messages
4,845
Location
Mountain View, CA
Shai Hulud said:
this is how every online game has been, ever. You're occasionally going to get your *** kicked. Quit the match and start another one if it hurts your feelings that bad. Or just play with your friends.

It's not a big deal. Nintendo didn't include voice support so it's not like there'd be 6-year-olds getting cussed out by mean old "tourneyf@gs." We don't care about that bulls#it, seriously.
Click to expand...
I think Sakurai does care according to the first post, it goes against his supposedly idea of "everyone must have fun , even the loser". I can understand he was afraid that people would quit playing on wi-fi to play with friends due to going against many tourney***s, wi-fi being a part of the experience the game has to offer among many other things.
in other words , he wanted people to enjoy the game to the fullest , not "I had a bad experience about online , i wont play it anymore" just like MKDS and snakers and many other online games as u said.
I think a developper point of view is very different from a player.
 
R

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
OrlanduEX said:
Stop kidding yourself, man. All that content you mentioned will last all of 2 months at best for any casual gamer.
The cutscenes are cool for the first 2 or 3 times you see them and then you don't care anymore.
We will forget about the graphical improvement in a few weeks once we get used to it.
Stage builder is shallow and won't be interesting for very long.
Who cares about trophies once you've read them? And getting all of them takes like a few weeks of consistent play. No more than a few months.
Stickers? LOL.
Coin Launcher is boring.
Subspace is good for one or two playthroughs and many will find it to be more of a drudgery than a pleasure.
It's nice that we got some good new characters, but then they had to go and nerf all the old ones. Most veteran characters are simply less interesting than before.
The new items are mostly inconsequential. Smash Balls are a gimmick. Final Smashes only retain their novelty for a few matches. Then it becomes annoying to watch the same animations over and over. Assist trophies aren't a big deal. It just pisses you off that those characters aren't playable.
The new stages are not a big deal.
The only thing they truly improved that is meaningful is the music, and even that won't hold gamers for more than a few months.

All this new content is trivial. What matters above all else is the gameplay. The reason we are playing Melee 6 years after it's release is the amazing gameplay.
Brawl's gameplay has been dumbed down from Melee in every conceivable way. Yea the casual players will enjoy Brawl, but even if it was the "glitch-fest" that Melee was, casuals would STILL enjoy it. There was no reason to suck the competitive aspects out of the game.

And for the record, none of the advanced techs were actually glitches. No. Not even wavedashing. The majority of techs we call advanced techs were programmed into the game intentionally. Wavedashing is just the manipulation of three normal elements of the gameplay: a jump, an air dodge into the ground, and a special slide that results. Note that the "special slide" was intentional.
Click to expand...
QFT.

If more people listened to posts like this, we wouldn't have these debates.
 
thumbswayup

thumbswayup

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,566
Location
wars not make one great
LouisLeGros said:
lol, I know this has been said before but you people who seem to be so adamantly opposed to competitive play for whatever reason just don't get it (and you call us thick headed LOL).

Being casual friendly and supportive of the competitive scene are not mutually exclusive!

You want an example? Look at Melee, by far the best selling Gamecube game. It is enjoyed by both crowds independent of each other.

Don't bring up the **** about how casuals and "scrubs" are the main focus of the game. Yes they are the large majority of the game owners. However, having competitive depth in a game doesn't mean the game can't be eaten up by these millions of casuals. I could list tons of examples of games with tons of competitive depth, but still have millions of casual users.

Don't just go and call the competitive players thick headed because they wanted the game to be able to cater to their method of play. We don't want the game to be unapproachable or unfun for new comers and casual players. We wanted the very possible and very achievable situation where we would have a game that caters to both crowds. The most loyal fans and the most casual of players who may only play it because of some trend.


If you can't see how the two can coincide then you are truly the ignorant one.
Click to expand...
I love you.
 
Shai Hulud

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,495
Location
Oregon
All right, so I'm going to sum up my arguments and exit this thread. Basically, it comes down to this:

Sakurai should be shot in the face.
 
W

Wilde

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
20
I wonder if he knows that fighting games are ABOUT competition. This isn't some RPG, it's a fighting game where you try and DEFEAT your opponents.
 
L

Linkplayer5678

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
117
OrlanduEX said:
*sigh*
Tourneyf@g. The weakest and dumbest insult you could level on any player. gb2/v/
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B

BlackYoshi7

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
102
Location
Wisconsin/Illionis
^ 4chan or LUELinks? The Picard ASCII makes me think LL, which makes me ashamed that it has yet another member that can only try to be funny by copying unfunny 4chan fads.
 
Tristan_win

Tristan_win

Not dead.
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
3,845
Location
Currently Japan
Yes, Brawl, Melee, and 64 was never meant to be completive but this is exactly why I love this game so much! Unlike halo the Meta game is constantly evolving, constantly change into something more... The reason for this is because smash isn't perfect; it's filled to the brim with glitches and momentum oddities, which I think we all should be greatly thankful for as they are the reason we are all here now. Just look at Pickachu, with his new ability/glitch to jump out of his up B his game play is now going to be completely different for the rest of Brawl. Personally I’m giving this game a year of my time before even thinking this games well have less potential then Melee.


After writing that I’m beginning to think I might even like the community more then the actually game it self!
 
R

Razorsaw

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
88
Shai Hulud said:
All right, so I'm going to sum up my arguments and exit this thread. Basically, it comes down to this:

Sakurai should be shot in the face.
Click to expand...
No one is ever serious when they say this, but it's still the lowest possible kind of thing you can do on the internet. If you can't express your feelings in ways other than pretend violence, what worth is anything you have to say?
 
LavisFiend

LavisFiend

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
1,713
Location
Alexandria, Louisiana
Probably the funniest thing I find about this entire ordeal, is that when he was asked in an interview if he wanted to create another, he hinted at showing interest.

This is a huge change from not even considering making Brawl, from ending it with Brawl, to going back on his word and saying that he wouldn't mind making another.

Sounds like the guys at Sora might start to realize what it is they have and how good they got it.
 
H

House M.D.

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
136
Location
New Haven/Bryn Mawr
Scar said:
His vision is ignorant in my opinion. I'm not speaking for everyone here, but SSBM is a party game outside of the competitive scene. Before I knew about the scene, I used to win a lot and lose a lot, and either way I would laugh and have a good time. That wasn't enough for Sakurai, though.

He felt the need to betray my entire community. I don't think that Nintendo nor Brawl will sell any better because the game is not competitive. I don't see any good coming from it. There's no good reason.
Click to expand...
First, scar's pompous, ivory-tower approach is not conducive to the intelligent conversation his thread claims to desire. Potshot aside, I feel like scar's anger is clouding his judgment. On a typical college campus, the majority of students play smash 64 not melee. Why? For one, N64 is the system of choice, not gamecube. But more relevantly, melee was not nearly as popular. Even if melee sold well for a long time, most people complain of the increased speed and, are probably turned off by people who are much better than them. For better or worse, Sakurai is right. People do want the dumbed down gameplay, evidenced by 64's general popularity relative to melee (of course, it's easy to forget when we all are so obsessed with melee). I think that Brawl will still sell as well as if its gameplay was more competitive, but it would not have had as much staying power.

I can't wait for Scar's scathing, brilliant response.
 
I

Ixninjax

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
322
Location
Davis CA
House M.D. said:
First, scar's pompous, ivory-tower approach is not conducive to the intelligent conversation his thread claims to desire. Potshot aside, I feel like scar's anger is clouding his judgment. On a typical college campus, the majority of students play smash 64 not melee. Why? For one, N64 is the system of choice, not gamecube. But more relevantly, melee was not nearly as popular. Even if melee sold well for a long time, most people complain of the increased speed and, are probably turned off by people who are much better than them. For better or worse, Sakurai is right. People do want the dumbed down gameplay, evidenced by 64's general popularity relative to melee (of course, it's easy to forget when we all are so obsessed with melee). I think that Brawl will still sell as well as if its gameplay was more competitive, but it would not have had as much staying power.

I can't wait for Scar's scathing, brilliant response.
Click to expand...
lol, what college do you go to? In davis CA everybody plays melee, I've only met one guy here who plays 64. In fact, 64 is very much unpopular everywhere I go. What makes you say it's popular?
 
Shai Hulud

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,495
Location
Oregon
Razorsaw said:
No one is ever serious when they say this, but it's still the lowest possible kind of thing you can do on the internet. If you can't express your feelings in ways other than pretend violence, what worth is anything you have to say?
Click to expand...
Who said I wasn't serious?
 
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