Sakurai and his own Kirby bias

[NintenRob]

Planet Robobot is only the best Kirby game like how NSMBU is the best New Super Mario Bros. game. The formula simply holds it back.

You know what. **** off, I'm done with this conversation. I have never seen you have a positive opinion on anything. You think something being similar to something makes it automatically bad. You're awful person to have a conversation and bring everything down.

Consider yourself blocked and ignored

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Sakurai also said that Ridley would not be in Smash Bros, that Smash Bros. would not feature real guns, that he would not include fighters from other fighting games, etc. I take anything he says with a grain of salt.

Kirby is simple but Cloud is even simpler and Cloud could have survived by juggling the beams with his Uair so Cloud would have been a better pick.

He doesn’t even need to juggle. As he needs to do is space with Bair obviously.

 

[Perkilator]

Now that I think about it...yeah, BWD should've been in the Plant's spot (along with more appreciation for the modern games, at the very least).

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

You know what. **** off, I'm done with this conversation. I have never seen you have a positive opinion on anything. You think something being similar to something makes it automatically bad. You're awful person to have a conversation and bring everything down.

Consider yourself blocked and ignored

By making this post, you yourself were also acting kinda awful, and much more rude than Quillion. The conversation was at least civil to say the least, and all you did by making this post was show that when people have different outlooks or challenge your views, you react with childish anger. Block and ignore me if you want, but that would only prove my point further.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Now that I think about it...yeah, BWD should've been in the Plant's spot (along with more appreciation for the modern games, at the very least).

BWD is more iconic in general as well, with (I feel) better move set potential, which SSF2 displays greatly.

 

[PF9]

I think the next Smash game will be directed by someone new, who will more friendly to post-Sakurai Kirby games

 

[Swamp Sensei]

By making this post, you yourself were also acting kinda awful, and much more rude than Quillion. The conversation was at least civil to say the least, and all you did by making this post was show that when people have different outlooks or challenge your views, you react with childish anger. Block and ignore me if you want, but that would only prove my point further.

At the same time, people can only take so much pigheadedness.

If one person is arguing that "the sky is purple," sure you'll have people saying "no because xzy," and try to remain civil. But if the one person keeps saying the sky is purple, with no intention of stopping, regardless of how much evidence is shown to the contrary, people will naturally get angry.

This isn't a one time thing, and Mr. Nintendo is usually pretty darn chill.

Really, the notion that Forgotten Land won't add anything new is... stupid. It's adding an entirely new dimension and we've already seen new mechanics and new aspects of classic abilities. Quil is just choosing not to accept those things as valid. For some asinine reason.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

At the same time, people can only take so much pigheadedness.

If one person is arguing that "the sky is purple," sure you'll have people saying "no because xzy," and try to remain civil. But if the one person keeps saying the sky is purple, with no intention of stopping, regardless of how much evidence is shown to the contrary, people will naturally get angry.

This isn't a one time thing, and Mr. Nintendo is usually pretty darn chill.

Really, the notion that Forgotten Land won't add anything new is... stupid. It's adding an entirely new dimension and we've already seen new mechanics and new aspects of classic abilities. Quil is just choosing not to accept those things as valid. For some asinine reason.

If you realize that they won’t change their mind, simply stop trying to change their mind. Don’t have an outburst that makes you seem rude. Agree to disagree, its that simple.

 

[Oracle Link]

So what do you guys think about mr. Infinitepower, pure of heart and reeincarnation of a god not being able to copy a simple keyblade?

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

So what do you guys think about mr. Infinitepower, pure of heart and reeincarnation of a god not being able to copy a simple keyblade?

It means that despite being EXTREMELY powerful, he cannot break the laws of certain universes. Also because it would mean Kirby is technically a key blade user.

 

[Oracle Link]

It means that despite being EXTREMELY powerful, he cannot break the laws of certain universes. Also because it would mean Kirby is technically a key blade user.

But kirby can just use the Monado, Mastersword and Falchion? Also kirby could just Create A keyblade From nothing! he does not need to use an actual keyblade!

 

[NintenRob]

If you realize that they won’t change their mind, simply stop trying to change their mind. Don’t have an outburst that makes you seem rude. Agree to disagree, its that simple.

If someone argues something stupid, I'll call them out. I grew tired of his nonsense so I blocked them. I made my feelings known in hopes it would be a slap in the face wake up call to be better in future. If he keeps spouting nonsense, I'm sure others will block him as well and eventually he'll have no one else to talk to.

Maybe I was a bit harsh, but I'm not going to pretend I didn't mean it.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

So what do you guys think about mr. Infinitepower, pure of heart and reeincarnation of a god not being able to copy a simple keyblade?

Disney copyrights must be a big binch. The keyblade has long stopped being a special weapon meant for a chosen one past the first KH/CoM.
Regarding the topic at hand, I can understand that Kirby reuses a lot of tropes throughout the games, but darn, Dream Land(GB) and Great Cave Offensive are some of my most disliked stages in the franchise. Really wish we could have seen something like Another Dimension, the Bean Stalk or whatever is considered the most iconic location from Robobot. Hell, even if you want to just stick with the Sakurai era games, a stage based on Dyna Blades nest or Nova would have been miles better than those two.
Wouldn't have minded an AT for Bandana Dee, Magolor or Suzie either, at the least I feel they're more iconic than Knuckle Joe by now.

 

[1FC0]

So what do you guys think about mr. Infinitepower, pure of heart and reeincarnation of a god not being able to copy a simple keyblade?

The Keyblade is far from simple.

 

[Oracle Link]

The Keyblade is far from simple.

So is the mastersword, monado and falchion!

 

[Perkilator]

Actually, scratch what I said about the Plant. Waluigi could've been in instead but that's not the point.

While I have nothing against Minecraft, I think BWD should've gotten instead of Steve.

With that being said, what do you guys think of my hypothetical BWD Challenger Pack?

Spoiler

Fighter: Bandana Waddle Dee

Stage: Clash at Castle Dedede

Music:

1. Vs. Nightmare
2. Factory Inspection
3. Ripple Red
4. Checker Knights
5. Dark Meta Knight Battle
6. Dedede's Royal Payback
7. The Greatest Warrior in the Galaxy
8. Meadow Breeze
9. Vs. Sphere Doomer
10. Vs. Grand Doomer (Super Ability) / Another Dimension
11. Bouncing Boss Battle
12. Must Dash / Reflected Laughter
13. Revenge of the Enemy
14. Sullied Grace
15. Up the Big Ol' Tree
16. Lively Street
17. Spinning Roulette
18. Vagrant Counting Song of Retrospection
19. Dededestroyer Z
20. The Apple Juice Song
21. Song of Supplication
22. Super Kirby Clash Medley
23. Title & Menu - Kirby Fighters 2

Spirits (Spirit Battles listed here)

1. Adeleine -> Adeleine and Ribbon
2. Dark Meta Knight
3. Daroach -> Dark Daroach
4. Taranza
5. Queen Sectonia
6. 0 -> 02
7. Warp Star
8. Ultra Sword
9. Halberd
10. Masked Dedede
11. Galacta Knight

 

[Perkilator]

New trailer for Forgotten Land:

 

[NintenRob]

New trailer for Forgotten Land:

Consider me more hyped then I already was.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Kirby do be looking good though. I’m getting it on release if I can.

 

[Mamboo07]

I love that Whispy became thicc and wide in a tropical place.

 

[Perkilator]

People call Bandana Dee “a goomba with a hat” but it can’t be denied he’s an important character

Dude’s been Kirby’s most consistent ally for 10+ years. He’s basically the series’ secondary protagonist now pic.twitter.com/v5D55NCkqS

— TheNCSmaster (@TheNCSmaster) January 12, 2022

SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK

 

[NintenRob]

Mouthful mode looks so cursed and so fun. I love it!

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I think people have a weird way of looking at Kirby's representation in smash and I don't personally think Sakurai is "biased". I think BrawlFan1 says it best, so I'll just put the quote here:

A lot of people wish that more of Kirby's Copy abilities were integrated into his moveset, that he's not well represented without them. The entire crux of their argument is that it assumes it's the Copy Abilities that solely define Kirby, and frankly, that's just not true. Kirby does not need a bunch of random powers sprinkled across his moveset to make him better represented, in all due honesty, it'd make him more cluttered, which might be fine for some Smash fighters, but probably not for Kirby specifically. There's more to simplicity than just being easy to use, the visual aspect is also very important.

Folks also assume that Sakurai has this huge bias towards the games that he made, and chooses to ignore the newer ones.
In reality, the newer games are a big fan of the older games. There's nothing that the newer games add and keep that wasn't already in those older games. There really is not that big of a dissonance between Classic Kirby and Modern Kirby.
They actually have the same problem that people have with the Pokémon games.
Newer games just keep it safe, while adding a new game specific gimmick that gets dropped by the next game. Though I'd argue that Kirby is a bigger offender of this, because they play it MUCH safer. Heck, pretty much every game starts you in Green Greens or some type of version of Green Greens. Imagine how people would react to Pokémon if every game's first route was identical to the starting routes and gyms in Generation 1. Also look at how tired people are of Sonic games that always start with Green Hill zone.
This is actually a common criticism that I've seen people make with the newer Kirby titles, with Star Allies being the de-facto example, and do I very much agree with that standing. Now this doesn't mean that they're bad, Kirby games are always very solid, after all if it's not broken, don't fix it. But a little innovation never hurts anyone, cuz otherwise it becomes stale. What this also means though is that in the context of adding anything worth while to Smash, there just isn't anything.

Followers on twitter have been pointing out that this doesn't only apply to the playable characters though, the Stages, music remixes, and other stuff also suffer, but I still don't think that holds water. I don't think there's any Stage themes that's solely in the newer games that wasn't also in the older games as well.
You can argue that the selection of Kirby stages is shallow, we really don't need three versions of Green Greens, and I do agree, but I chalk that up more to unfortunate planning. All three of those stages were each made for their respective Smash games. There's of course 64, the remixed version of it for Melee, which is what most 64 stages got, then a fun little Gameboy call back stage for Smash 4 3DS.
Ultimate brought back all but 15 stages from the prior 5 games, and when you do something like that, there's bound to be some redundancy across stages, and this doesn't only apply to Kirby unfortunately, multiple franchise stages also had this issue. But don't think of that as an excuse, but a criticism, despite having the widest selection of stages, pulling stages from past games is bound to lead to over lap. So that's less and issue for Kirby and more for Smash Ultimate as a whole.

And music is a different issue, because Sakurai doesn't choose what music get remixed, he gives creative liberty to the music composers, and THEY choose what songs they wish to remix. So the older Kirby themes getting remixed shows more favoritism from the music composers, not Sakurai. Plus it also doesn't help that most tracks in the modern Kirby games are just remixes of older Kirby music to begin with.
Again, the newer games are huge fans of the older games.

Overall, I don't really have the same issues that a lot of people have with Kirby in Smash. If anything I have more issues with the Kirby series itself, despite the fact that I do still have fun with them. Does that make their opposing view points from mine on the matter in-valid? By no means. If you think that Kirby could use an over haul in Smash, then cool! I'm sure that there are a ton of neat ideas that could be applied to him! But that's just not for me. I like Kirby as is, and I really don't think he needs that much.

 

[Perkilator]

I just finished the Forgotten land demo last night, and even on Wild mode it was a nice comfortable ride. Can't wait for the full release!

Shame I have nobody to play Co-op with because I wish you were also able to swap between Kirby and BWD

I think people have a weird way of looking at Kirby's representation in smash and I don't personally think Sakurai is "biased". I think BrawlFan1 says it best, so I'll just put the quote here:

I'm sorry, but this isn't that true. Modern Kirby games may be the same as classic for some areas, but there's more than enough new material to warrant some of it in Smash.

 

[Mamboo07]

I can imagine some Forgotten Land content in Smash.

Some examples:

• Kirby using the Evolved Copy Abilities
• Trophies of Mouthful Modes
• Beast Pack enemies in Smash Run
• The city as a stage

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I'm sorry, but this isn't that true. Modern Kirby games may be the same as classic for some areas, but there's more than enough new material to warrant some of it in Smash.

Obviously I do think some modern content should be in smash (which smash of course, does have) and I think you would be misunderstanding the point if you think he’s trying to say modern kirby isn’t deserving of anything in smash.

It’s just that people act like Sakurai has a huge bias towards “classic kirby” because “well, he created it!” and I think that quote is trying to say how that’s a flawed way of thinking and there isn’t really much evidence for it. The quote is most definitely not trying to say kirby post-sakurai doesn’t have enough to warrant representation or that it wouldn’t be cool to add some things from modern kirby games, just that kirby doesn’t need an equal amount of “modern” and “classic” representation

 

[Perkilator]

Just 7 more sleeps until #Kirby and the Forgotten Land comes to #NintendoSwitch!

Tag a friend who you'd like to join your journey as Bandana Waddle Dee in 2 player simultaneous co-op! ✨ pic.twitter.com/xbTGbsvpko

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) March 18, 2022

I think even Nintendo knows how beloved BWD is at this point. All it really takes for him to get into Smash is for Nintendo to convince Sakurai to make an interesting enough moveset.

 

[Perkilator]

Waddle Dee's Big Adventure#kirby #smash #smashbrosultimate #smashbros #nintendo #nintendoswitch #KirbyandtheForgottenLand pic.twitter.com/Lk3wmeKD7v

— Wooden Plank Studios (@WoodenPlank) March 23, 2022

Wooden Plank knows what’s up

 

[Jotari]

I'm not sure if it is exactly bias. Like, it does seem to be true that there's nothing from the modern games, but is that exclusive to Kirby? Like, has modern Donkey Kong gotten any representation in Smash? There aren't any stages based on modern DK stages and when they added a third DK character it was one who hadn't appeared in like fifteen years. Of course I don't think that's a bad thing, but it is a way of looking at it.

 

[Mamboo07]

I'm not sure if it is exactly bias. Like, it does seem to be true that there's nothing from the modern games, but is that exclusive to Kirby? Like, has modern Donkey Kong gotten any representation in Smash? There aren't any stages based on modern DK stages and when they added a third DK character it was one who hadn't appeared in like fifteen years. Of course I don't think that's a bad thing, but it is a way of looking at it.

Yes.

Nothing from Return to Dreamland or any other game but we do have spirits of characters like Magolor and Susie.

The last time we got a Kirby stage was Dream Land on Gameboy and Great Cave.

Epic Yarn was originally gonna be a stage but got cut and replaced by Yoshi's Woolly World.

 

[Jotari]

Yes.

Nothing from Return to Dreamland or any other game but we do have spirits of characters like Magolor and Susie.

The last time we got a Kirby stage was Dream Land on Gameboy and Great Cave.

Epic Yarn was originally gonna be a stage but got cut and replaced by Yoshi's Woolly World.

I read the OP, my post was more bringing up Donkey Kong as a comparison. Is there anything in Smash for Donkey Kong that comes from after DK 64 (other than spirits...probably)?

 

[Sid-cada]

I read the OP, my post was more bringing up Donkey Kong as a comparison. Is there anything in Smash for Donkey Kong that comes from after DK 64 (other than spirits...probably)?

The lack of content from Donkey Kong after 64 is more a victim of circumstance.

DK in For WiiU had Jungle Hijinks, a stage based on Returns. However, it had a gimmick of being launched into the background. This did would not play well with stage morph, and so was cut.

At the very least, it got two song remixes, one for Gear Getaway and a vocal arrangement for Return's title theme, both of which were carried over into Ultimate.

Kirby, on the other hand, still hasn't had a stage based on a game after Super Star, and the newest music not counting ports is from Squeak Squad, which at least was very recent when it was made... during the Brawl era. That's over 14 years ago.

 

[Perkilator]

Sakurai acknowledged Forgotten Land today:

『星のカービィ　ディスカバリー』本日発売！
文明と自然が融合した「新世界」を舞台に、さらわれたワドルディたちを助けるため、カービィの冒険が始まります。
車などをほおばって動かす新能力「ほおばりヘンケイ」では、コピー能力とは一味違ったアクションも！#スマブラ画https://t.co/rS5CMq3tsV pic.twitter.com/YM4NfCpikh

— 大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ【スマブラ公式】 (@SmashBrosJP) March 25, 2022

 

[LuisRez]

I kinda like it, it shows appreciation and it hits harder when there are so many franchises in nintendo's catalogue that are just forgotten

 

[NintenRob]

Forgot I made this topic ages ago, but I actually made a video covering this very subject

I'd like to cover other franchises later, but I had to start with Kirby

 

[Mamboo07]

I'd like to cover other franchises later

One of them could be Wario since the Land games haven't got much love

 

[Oracle Link]

Forgot I made this topic ages ago, but I actually made a video covering this very subject

I'd like to cover other franchises later, but I had to start with Kirby

What a fantastic video!
I would love working with you on a sequel covering Zelda!
I would even write A Script and providing assets and my voice! (sadly i cdant edit well)
And i only want credit nothing more!

 

[NintenRob]

What a fantastic video!
I would love working with you on a sequel covering Zelda!
I would even write A Script and providing assets and my voice! (sadly i cdant edit well)
And i only want credit nothing more!

I want to cover Donkey Kong next but I absolutely plan to Zelda at some point.

That said, I plan to take a somewhat different approach to the Zelda franchise in Smash. There's already videos out there discussing the characters and movesets for the Zelda series, so I'd actually like to deep dive what's good about the franchise in Smash

 

[Oracle Link]

I want to cover Donkey Kong next but I absolutely plan to Zelda at some point.

That said, I plan to take a somewhat different approach to the Zelda franchise in Smash. There's already videos out there discussing the characters and movesets for the Zelda series, so I'd actually like to deep dive what's good about the franchise in Smash

Two words Toon link hes much more deserving than people give him credit for!

 

[1FC0]

One of them could be Wario since the Land games haven't got much love

A better idea would be R.O.B. because the Stack-Up series has gotten no love at all. This issue needs to attention until it becomes so well-known that news of it reaches Sakurai so that he can rectify this problem.