Sakurai "aiming to make Super Smash Bros. best character game in the world"

[HeavyLobster]

It's difficult to understate how significant this game is character-wise as far as the video game industry as a whole, given how few true icons exist in the video game industry compared to comic books, cartoons, and movies. (mostly due to how new the industry is) For me, an iconic character must 1. have a legacy spanning generations(as far as the gaming industry is concerned, this means originating no later than the 80s-90s) and 2. be instantly recognizable to the general public, including those who do not regularly follow the medium in question. Mario, Sonic, and Pac-man easily meet both criteria, Donkey Kong generally qualifies as well, and Pikachu barely qualifies as far as longetivity goes but is easily recognizable enough. All of these characters are in Smash Bros, and most of what I would call second-tier icons who haven't quite received the same level of universal renown(Link, Samus, Snake, Mega Man) are or have been in as well, with the only real exceptions that come to mind being guys like Ryu and Cloud. The inclusion of Mega Man and Pac-man basically makes this game a who's-who of classic gaming icons in general, and not just one of Nintendo icons.

 

[SS-bros14]

No offense, but the posts saying 'Please, it's not the best unless ______ comes.' just kinda makes me want to slap that person in the face.

 

[Deleted member]

No offense, but the posts saying 'Please, it's not the best unless ______ comes.' just make me want to slap that person in the face.

And people wonder why Sakurai is so stressed about the roster, he's got a bunch of people with incredibly high expectations and short tempers to please.

 

[Souless_shadow]

I know people don't like Bowser Jr, but it hurts sometimes to see your most wanted get hated by many people...

Bowser Jr. was always my most wanted 5th Mario rep. When Rosalina was revealed I was kind of disappointed that it wasn't Bowser jr. But there is still the possibility of Bowser jr albeit a small one.

 

[Bauske]

I know people don't like Bowser Jr, but it hurts sometimes to see your most wanted get hated by many people...

Dude, I hear ya. That's all I heard whenever I'd say I wanted Pac-Man in the game before he was announced. So much hate for him and I never understood it. Bowser Jr. would be a cool addition though, and at least he's Nintendo so he stands a better chance.

 

[JabbatheHutt]

Once Wario is confirmed it has succeeded. no words need to be said.

 

[FlareHabanero]

And people wonder why Sakurai is so stressed about the roster, he's got a bunch of people with incredibly high expectations and short tempers to please.

You could argue every crossover is like that.

You have a large cast of characters you can choose from and each one has it's fans but at the same time due to development time and budget you can only put in so much, meaning you're guaranteed to disappoint someone no matter what you choose.

 

[Johnknight1]

But is there a reason for Nitpicking for '______' not being on the game?

Depends how hard you nitpick and what you're nitpicking.

If you're nitpicking because Link's Uncle isn't playable, you are nitpicking over freaking worthless things, and you should just shut up and get over it.

If you're nitpicking because your favorite character from Brawl is cut, you are nitpicking over things that clearly has value, and as long as you don't go off the deep end, you can nitpick that as much as you want the way I see it.

If you nitpick constantly because you didn't get an Event Match you wanted, get over it. It's just an additional mode.

If you nitpick because (hypothetically) the multiplayer aspects of Smash are cut, please, nitpick HARDER!!!

 

[Flaxr XIII]

I know people don't like Bowser Jr, but it hurts sometimes to see your most wanted get hated by many people...

That's Nintendo's fault. I really liked Bowser Jr. back in Sunshine and he was one of my most wanted in the Pre-Brawl days. But in the last generation, he's kinda been demoted to an obnoxious mid-boss and all the charm he had in Sunshine was pretty much lost.

 

[Johnknight1]

Calling attention to serious issues such as tripping and SSE isn't nitpicking. Nitpicking is letting small, negligible issues give you a reason to pout, and that's exactly what's going on in this thread.

Eh, it's more of a personal preference of the definition in that case.

Nitpicking doesn't have a implied negative connotation in its' definition, because it is neither inherently good or bad.

Of course the same is true of the words "manipulating" and "entitled"/"entitlement" but most people here don't realize that.

These 3 words can all be used positively as well. For instance, if someone "nitpicked" Adolf Hitler's hate of various people groups and "manipulated" Adolf Hitler to not discriminate and that other people are "entitled" to live their lives out peacefully to where Adolf Hitler conformed to those ways, then the world would be a better place.

Although, to be fair, I use the word "fanboy" to the following meaning:
"Individuals that are so into the fandom that anything that challenges any of their beliefs or integrity of what they are involved in the fandom about is seen as a personal assault on their moral values".

Conversely, I use "fan" to mean "someone who enjoys something and is involved with it fairly regularly."

No offense, but the posts saying 'Please, it's not the best unless ______ comes.' just kinda makes me want to slap that person in the face.

Honestly, the Marvel vs. Capcom 2 roster still beats the Smash 4 roster (the confirmed roster) by quite a bit IMO. It had 56 characters, and a lot of them were great choices with many characters with insane popularity (I'd argue Spider-Man > Mario in terms of how recognizable and how iconic they are, although how fun they are to play in comparison remains to be seen, since Smash 4 Mario isn't playable yet :/ . However, I will say Spider-Man in MvC2 > Mario in Brawl).

Also, IMO MvC2's roster > Brawl's roster, mostly because there's a lot more styles, more characters, and just in general the best kind of stupid stuff (sans the terrible imbalance; I mostly just like to play mid-tiers in MvC2 like Spider-Man, Mega Man, Wolverine, and Dhalism).

The entire Marvel roster, while featuring a lot of minor characters from X-Men (that I like, although Psylocke was poorly designed), was pretty freaking fantastic.

Also, the exclusion of various veterans would suck from a gameplay perspective, namely Falco, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Ness, The Ice Climbers, and Ganondorf IMO.

 

[κomıc]

Great interview.

I love how even he himself is excited to see four of the most famous gaming icons in the same game. I honestly can not get over it despite the hate people gave Pac-Man before his reveal. I'm glad he made the cut. He deserved it.

I think this game is well on its way to being fantastic just like the past three entries. I really have no worries. I love my (and I'm more than sure lots of others) wishes of having more females in Smash Bros has come to fruition. It is lacking villains but hopefully, the next Smash Bros brings in Medusa, Hades, King K Rool (if he isn't in Smash 4), Ridley (same too), Metroid Prime Hunters, Ghirihim, Vaati and so on. Because really, Bowser and Ganondorf (and Wolf...? Yeah..) are the only true villains in the series.

King Dedede and Meta Knight have progressed to be protagonists in the Kirby series in recent with Dark MetaKnight and [Shadow] Masked Dedede replacing them. I would love to see the latter be his own original character, actually. Using his Axe and being more quicker than King Dedede. In any case, I hope people can accept Smash 4 for being its own game.

 

[Johnknight1]

Source?

thethirdkoopa has stated it multiple times he's heard it from people who have knowledge about Nintendo staffing and staffing problems.

For the record, thethirdkoopa is a game developer who has sources within Nintendo. He's also a SWF staff writer.

In fact, a lot of this thread is lacking sources. I see "SSE took 70% of the game's dev time!" and "SSE took 60% of the game's dev time!" along with this, with nothing to back it up.

This isn't a discussion, it's more like making stuff up to bash Brawl and bringing the thread even more off-topic.

That stuff is in the Smash 4 info dump sticked thread in the Smash WiiU Subforum (the "over 60% of Brawl was the SSE" thing).

And no, it's not off-topic, it's relevant to the ongoing future.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I hate what this thread devolved into, to finalize this idea on how I feel about large casts.

Large casts aren't necessarily a good thing, MvC2 has a large cast but it's balance is horrendous, even a casual can see the difference between servebot and Roll vs Sentinel and Storm.

DBZ did this too with one of the largest casts I've see. In a fighting game, they don't really play different and has horrible balance as well.

Brawl at the least has 60-80% of the cast show up to the one percentile in tournaments while being unique, melee is close as well. Smash series in general is good with it's variety cast and balance in respect to other fighters.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

If Sakurai says this, and then cuts Snake, Wolf, Ice Climbers, AND Lucas, and then adds Dr. Mario and Dark Pit, there will be hell to pay.

 

[mario123007]

IM TOTALLY HAPPY it is gone.

It was a titanic effort that didnt paid off. I started playing it and got bored at the first half hour of playing...never touched it again.
One of the six pals that got Brawl, finished it...the rest didnt even bothered.

Smash is a fighting game, or a party fighting game, whatever. Theeres nothing wrong in having an adventure mode...as long as it is quick and to the point. The SSE was a gigsntic thing thathad little to do with the core of the game that is a fighting game.

Sak did an adventure mode so gigantic, it drained a lot of resources from Brawl, and in the end was nothing memorable apart from some nice videos (which im pretty sure costed some good money to do).

Well, I hope that Sakurai can still keep the cutscenes but rather than putting it in Adventure mode, just like Kid Icarus Uprising maybe they can post special videos during the release.

 

[allison]

That's Nintendo's fault. I really liked Bowser Jr. back in Sunshine and he was one of my most wanted in the Pre-Brawl days. But in the last generation, he's kinda been demoted to an obnoxious mid-boss and all the charm he had in Sunshine was pretty much lost.

I dunno. I liked his personality in Sunshine, but replacing the Koopalings was super annoying. Having him with that charm while still having Koopalings would be great

 

[Jumpman84]

thethirdkoopa has stated it multiple times he's heard it from people who have knowledge about Nintendo staffing and staffing problems.

For the record, thethirdkoopa is a game developer who has sources within Nintendo. He's also a SWF staff writer.

Doesn't make it true, just hearsay. There is nothing to suggest that SSE was even planned for Smash 4. Obviously, since I don't know this thethirdkoopa, I can't speak for his legitimacy. But you're the only person I've seen make this claim and your lack of evidence other than hearing it from some random guy doesn't do it any favors. Not to mention the complete ridiculousness of the statement...

 

[pickle962]

He knows smash veterns didn't like brawl so he adds nothing that appeals to them at all?

*facepalm* I would say removing Brawl's TOP THREE most annoying scrappy mechanics; Tripping, (nuff said) Acting out of hitstun (goes against all fighting game logic), and MetaKnight's Shuttle Loop (Up Special) working a lot differently in the absence of gliding (in other words, the many many MANY options MK unfairly had in Brawl as far as recovery is concerned has been reduced by one) is appealing to the smash veterans.

Edit: Thanks to @ #HBC | Red Ryu for this as well as Zer0 (the guy who won the smash 4 invitational) Camping is also a lot less viable this go round as projectile attacks have seemingly been nerfed all across the board making camping a thing of the past as well (Camping was a BIG reason why competitive Brawl was looked down upon so harshly)

 

[Retroend]

Bowser Jr. was always my most wanted 5th Mario rep. When Rosalina was revealed I was kind of disappointed that it wasn't Bowser jr. But there is still the possibility of Bowser jr albeit a small one.

except he may have paper mario as his competition. paper mario has representation in smash 4, bowser jr does not. paper mario would seem more of a likely candidate than bowser jr, and no offense, i hope that's the case.

 

[Petrichor]

*facepalm* I would say removing Brawl's TOP THREE most annoying scrappy mechanics; Tripping, (nuff said) Acting out of hitstun (goes against all fighting game logic), and MetaKnight's Shuttle Loop (Up Special) working a lot differently in the absence of gliding (in other words, the many many MANY options MK unfairly had in Brawl as far as recovery is concerned has been reduced by one) is appealing to the smash veterans.

This. Sakurai might not be making the competitive fanbase's dream game, but to suggest that he's done literally nothing for them is painfully shortsighted.

 

[mario123007]

*facepalm* I would say removing Brawl's TOP THREE most annoying scrappy mechanics; Tripping, (nuff said) Acting out of hitstun (goes against all fighting game logic), and MetaKnight's Shuttle Loop (Up Special) working a lot differently in the absence of gliding (in other words, the many many MANY options MK unfairly had in Brawl as far as recovery is concerned has been reduced by one) is appealing to the smash veterans.

Not to mention slow and edge KOs, and Meta Knight is actually not my unfavorite character, I used to hate Ike but I still don't like Lucario(I apologize for the Lucario mains for saying this)

The first time I used Meta Knight I sucked of using him and then I never used him again.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

MK losing his glide is actually a big nerf to his recovery.

 

[Souless_shadow]

except he may have paper mario as his competition. paper mario has representation in smash 4, bowser jr does not. paper mario would seem more of a likely candidate than bowser jr, and no offense, i hope that's the case.

If Paper Mario does end up being a character over Bowser Jr I'll be completely fine with it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

*facepalm* I would say removing Brawl's TOP THREE most annoying scrappy mechanics; Tripping, (nuff said) Acting out of hitstun (goes against all fighting game logic), and MetaKnight's Shuttle Loop (Up Special) working a lot differently in the absence of gliding (in other words, the many many MANY options MK unfairly had in Brawl as far as recovery is concerned has been reduced by one) is appealing to the smash veterans.

He also more or less sweeping nerfed all projectiles, so incentive to camp is a lot weaker.

 

[pickle962]

He also more or less sweeping nerfed all projectiles, so incentive to camp is a lot weaker.

Good eye!

 

[Deleted member 245254]

He also more or less sweeping nerfed all projectiles, so incentive to camp is a lot weaker.

He also instated a pretty big "push-back" to throws, making chain grabs pretty much impossible with the cast we've seen thus far, but still viable for follow ups.

I'd say he has a pretty damn good idea of what needed addressing.

 

[mario123007]

He also more or less sweeping nerfed all projectiles, so incentive to camp is a lot weaker.

Really?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Really?

Zero most specifically cited a huge sweeping, noticeable decrease in effectiveness of all projectiles during his time playing the game during E3.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Really?

They all do less damage overall, Samus's power missles only do 9%, some of them can't have their lag cancelled anymore via a short hop.

You can still use them to do damage from a far but they are far more punishable.

 

[Renji64]

*facepalm* I would say removing Brawl's TOP THREE most annoying scrappy mechanics; Tripping, (nuff said) Acting out of hitstun (goes against all fighting game logic), and MetaKnight's Shuttle Loop (Up Special) working a lot differently in the absence of gliding (in other words, the many many MANY options MK unfairly had in Brawl as far as recovery is concerned has been reduced by one) is appealing to the smash veterans.

That is him balancing his game more than anything that is good for everyone.

 

[mario123007]

They all do less damage overall, Samus's power missles only do 9%, some of them can't have their lag cancelled anymore via a short hop.

You can still use them to do damage from a far but they are far more punishable.

Sure enough, by becoming the most OP character in Smash4, perhapes I going to use Samus next.

 

[StarshipGroove]

4 staff members nitpicked Sakurai about the SSE being awful in Brawl and not wanting it back in Smash 4, and he either fired them or removed them from the Smash 4 development team.

What a ****, he learned well from Miyamoto, maybe he taught Sakurai his 'up-ending the tea table' technique.

 

[Jumpman84]

What a ****, he learned well from Miyamoto, maybe he taught Sakurai his 'up-ending the tea table' technique.

I seriously doubt that story is true, but in any case, I'm pretty sure the "up-ending the tea table" bit doesn't involve firing people, it's more of a scrapping completed content and starting over from scratch approach.

 

[SureNsync]

Honestly, Megaman, Pac-man, and Sonic are the perfect 3rd-party representation for a video game crossover, especially a Nintendo one. Smash has always been ahead of everyone else as far as crossovers containing only video game characters are concerned, and with these reps, nothing else comes remotely close. Once you expand it to include non-video game characters, things become more complicated, as very few video game characters can really compete with classic comic book and movie icons in terms of name recognition. Disney could probably pull off a Disney x Marvel x Star Wars game that could beat anything Nintendo's got in terms of star power, if not actual gameplay.

Disney can't beat Nintendo. Marvel and Star Wars weren't originally created by Disney. There for, Marvel and Stars Wars characters technically aren't Disney. Also, majority of Disney character have rather boring 1920ish designs. Nintendo somehow pulled it off perfectly. And what was already stated. Its not just about iconic characters, its about the gameplay just as much and atmosphere. If Disney tried using Nintendo's crossover gameplay, it would just be considered a Smash clone like PlayStation Allstars. Nintendo incredibly luckily formed its video game franchises as well Smash with the prefect timeless gameplay at the exact right time. I give you a Like for the "Smash has always been ahead of everyone else as far as crossovers containing only video game characters are concerned, and with these reps, nothing else comes remotely close. Once you expand it to include non-video game characters, things become more complicated, as very few video game characters can really compete with classic comic book and movie icons in terms of name recognition." quote. But its too late for even Disney to compare to Nintendo's Smash with their own characters. Playable Simba, Mufasa, Aladdin and Buzz Light Year is the only reason I would buy a Disney Smash. Smash is so complex, magical and incredible, the franchise seem as if it was impossible to develop and create in the first place. But it has. That's the power of Nintendo.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Disney can't beat Nintendo. Marvel and Star Wars weren't originally created by Disney. There for, Marvel and Stars Wars characters technically aren't Disney. Also, majority of Disney character have rather boring 1920ish designs. Nintendo somehow pulled it off perfectly. And what was already stated. Its not just about iconic characters, its about the gameplay just as much and atmosphere. If Disney tried using Nintendo's crossover gameplay, it would just be considered a Smash clone like PlayStation Allstars. Nintendo incredibly luckily formed its video game franchises as well Smash with the prefect timeless gameplay at the exact right time. I give you a Like for the "Smash has always been ahead of everyone else as far as crossovers containing only video game characters are concerned, and with these reps, nothing else comes remotely close. Once you expand it to include non-video game characters, things become more complicated, as very few video game characters can really compete with classic comic book and movie icons in terms of name recognition." quote. But its too late for even Disney to compare to Nintendo's Smash with their own characters. Playable Simba, Mufasa, Aladdin and Buzz Light Year is the only reason I would buy a Disney Smash. Smash is so complex, magical and incredible, the franchise seem as if it was impossible to develop and create in the first place. But it has. That's the power of Nintendo.

The point I was trying to make is that Disney/Marvel/Star Wars characters are generally more recognizable to the general public than Nintendo characters. There are way more people who don't recognize Link or Samus than don't recognize Yoda or Captain America. Disney could never come close to the full Smash experience in terms of gameplay innovation without buying Sakurai himself,(not an impossibility) nor would they be able to establish something to match Smash without Nintendo-caliber gameplay. Smash is untouchable as far as video-game icons go, but a hypothetical crossover involving other icons that has similar or better gameplay could potentially surpass it.

 

[MajorMajora]

You know, my Mom brought up a point a while ago that made me think. I told her about this idea of a kind of "Big 4", but she was rather confused. She said that it was surprising Pikachu wasn't considered up there. My mom plays no video games, but even she could recognize Pikachu. Pokemon was such a huge hit with the games and the TV show, I would agree in saying Pikachu was bigger than mega man. Maybe this has to do with me being born in the late 90's, maybe Mega man was just that big in the NES era, but it does confuse me a bit.

 

[Curious Villager]

You know, my Mom brought up a point a while ago that made me think. I told her about this idea of a kind of "Big 4", but she was rather confused. She said that it was surprising Pikachu wasn't considered up there. My mom plays no video games, but even she could recognize Pikachu. Pokemon was such a huge hit with the games and the TV show, I would agree in saying Pikachu was bigger than mega man. Maybe this has to do with me being born in the late 90's, maybe Mega man was just that big in the NES era, but it does confuse me a bit.

Pikachu is certainly up there too imo, in fact, I believe Sakurai himself commented how it was amazing enough to pit Mario against Pikachu or something along those lines when he was talking about Megaman, Pac-Man and Sonic being in together with Mario in Smash.

Donkey Kong as well imo.

 

[pizzapie7]

Is this what roster threads and arguments are normally like? Hate being spewed from fanbases of characters that are irrelevant in even their own series toward other, also irrelevant characters? Brawl's roster pretty much hit every notable Nintendo character I can think of, Smash 4 will fill the slight holes it had (WFT, Villager). The best he could do at this point is bring back Roy and Mewtwo to appeal to Smash fans in general who missed them in Brawl, along with bringing everyone back from Brawl. Anything passed that is extra.


To discuss the interview, I cannot express enough how much I hate hate hate hate hate hate this "sweet spot" he keeps talking about between old players and new. Firstly because he's done practically nothing to show that he's actually tried to do this and secondly because it's probably the worst uses of the golden mean fallacy I've ever witnessed. It's a talking point and nothing more, and I can't even buy it because of mostly everything else that he's said. And if you have a fantastic game and a game that ranges (depending on who you ask) somewhere between an abortion to simply underwhelming, you don't balance between the two.

 

[Senario]

Is this what roster threads and arguments are normally like? Hate being spewed from fanbases of characters that are irrelevant in even their own series toward other, also irrelevant characters? Brawl's roster pretty much hit every notable Nintendo character I can think of, Smash 4 will fill the slight holes it had (WFT, Villager). The best he could do at this point is bring back Roy and Mewtwo to appeal to Smash fans in general who missed them in Brawl, along with bringing everyone back from Brawl. Anything passed that is extra.


To discuss the interview, I cannot express enough how much I hate hate hate hate hate hate this "sweet spot" he keeps talking about between old players and new. Firstly because he's done practically nothing to show that he's actually tried to do this and secondly because it's probably the worst uses of the golden mean fallacy I've ever witnessed. It's a talking point and nothing more, and I can't even buy it because of mostly everything else that he's said. And if you have a fantastic game and a game that ranges (depending on who you ask) somewhere between an abortion to simply underwhelming, you don't balance between the two.

Main reason I avoid this thread lol. It became a character argument that I care not for. I am still disappointed with his stance of finding a middle ground then immediately after restating he thinks it is only a party game.

 

[pizzapie7]

Main reason I avoid this thread lol. It became a character argument that I care not for. I am still disappointed with his stance of finding a middle ground then immediately after restating he thinks it is only a party game.

Exactly. Like I said, it's a talking point he expects people to actually believe just because he's saying it.

And people defend it and attack people who call out this obvious bull****.