Sad Story

[R4ZE]

I went to a tournament in orlando yesterday and this is what happened.


I was doing ok, I decided from the beginning to use my main, Sonic. all the way.

Ok, so I beat some scrubz with Sonic, but to be honest i didn't think the people that i beat were good at all, but they still got kills off on me, and some even almost won.


** so i go up against this kid playing wolf.**
I knew wolf was a hard character to fight, mainly because of his laser.. But i had lost to wolf before and i had been practicing against him. I talked to my opponent about 2 hours before, and i also saw him play. I knew he wasn't that good, he even mentioned to me that he didn't own the game. My friends also mentioned that he wasn't good. I went in pretty confident that i should be able to beat this kid relatively easily based on all this.

So i got a nice smack in the face when he was able to completely stump my sonic play style by basicly spamming lasers, and getting a few mistake shots in for kills.

---1st round results: He killed me with 2 stock remaining, I was baffled, but i had done a lot of thinking because it took him a long time to kill me.
-sonic is my main, i have practiced extensively with him, and i have a very deep understanding of the mechanics in smash... ever since the original i have been playing.
-this kid was nothing fancy, i had even played against other wolfs in my crew that are better.

But i ended this round, and i wish you could have seen the grin on my face... because i knew what needed to be done.


**** the change was made, and it was unfortunate but it had to be done... I have only played as wolf 2 times in my life before this, but i knew i would stomp this kid in a mirror match just because i am good at smash. (i must sound really cocky... lol)

So it was now Wolf vs. Wolf.

I won the match without losing a songle life.... how sad is that..



The next round my opponent switched to game and watch, and i won again without losing a single life.... this just... proved the skill gap..


I continued the next match as sonic against a meta-knight.. i was pretty de-motivated because i realized i had to master a different character... and it will not be wolf.
(just to be clear, i dont think wold is like amazing or anything, i just think he is easy to play with like... 4 buttons and do relatively well.... i mean you can at least stomp noobs with him with no issues just by using 5 things : dodge, sheild, dmash, fsmash, laser)




&& the point and sad revolation that i got from this experience is: if nothing else... sonic will never beat wolf. and sonic is quite possibly a low tier character, if not bottom... he certainly has a lot of trouble vs wolf, and quite possibly a lot of other characters as well.


case and point... I can't main sonic if i expect to be competetive.


I am swtiching back to my melee main: falco.. I already started making the adaptation to his new moveset, and its much easier to win. but im truly heart broken at this game... brawl is obviously far more imbalanced than melee was.... i love playing as sonic because he is fun and actually not an easy mode character like wolf...

and I will definately play as sonic to mess around, but he is on the back burners for now.

 

[Tenki]

did you use homing attack, pshield, attack from the air..?

I told my brother to use Wolf and try to laser spam/smash when I get near (he's not a Wolf user at all) but those approaches seemed decent ._.;

 

[Not-Beef]

Shame on you, giving up like that. You've got to adapt against spammers instead of whipping out the white flag right away.

 

[R4ZE]

nah man... i definately pulled out all the stops, avoided laser as best i could... but its like if i went near him he could just sheild/dodge, and beat me out with an attack such as dsmash.



i mean i seriously hit him with homing attack like.. 50+ times.. got in so many grabs and everything.


idk man, just try it yourself... fight a wolf kid... the kid wasnt even good..


obviously. i schooled him with his own character... but really, it took a lot for me to give up man. my friends have been talling me for 2 months that sonic is a waste of time, and i have been telling them "no man, i'll find out how to pwn with him" and i am really good with sonic, but certain things just cant be done with sonic... i mean... this match really was a motivation breaker for this whole sonic mastering thing. and it sucks. im dissapointed too beleive me.

 

[Browny]

who doesnt have trouble against wolf?

i mean seriously, is he not the most impossible to approach character in the game?

 

[ShadowLink84]

INdeed. he is among the most difficult characters to approach. I simply go Link and outspam him by using bombs to hit him and boomerang to block his shots.

 

[Boxob]

I know exactly how you feel.

I was considering picking up Diddy. Fast, fast attacks, combos, kills, under-rated. Doesn't need to camp to win. I think it sounds good.


Or just go back to Melee, which I'm also considering.

 

[R4ZE]

hhaha ya... god.. melee was so fun..

but idk, people on here are saying falco is as good as he was in melee, and i can kinda see it so ill give him a shot.


i think i can atleast take out my frustration

I'll have gay stuff to use on my opponents now.

abusing falco's lasers, chaingrabs, and spikes..


On a side note: i really hope some one figures out some gay crap with sonic, because i really have a lot of fun using him.

 

[Napilopez]

well, u can escape all chaingrabs with sonic just UpB. but u already knew that.

Wolf is nowadays my only "hard" sonic matchup. SideB mega priority absolutely pwns.

 

[Unknownlight]

I seem to be the exception to wolf rule. Wolf is the one of the hardest characters to play against with every character...except my main Sonic. If I play as Sonic then he becomes a piece of cake for me.

 

[Tenki]

Share your secrets with the rest of the people who have trouble? ;D

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

I don't see Sonic as a low tier.I see him as a mid tier character.Why? Well,dude have you realize that Wolf is a good *** character? And some people say Sonic can beat Wolf.Which I kind of agree with,becasue Wolf Slow,and just a good ground game over Sonic.The only space animals he has trouble will be Falco.People droping Sonci for a noob character are kind of of smash palyer tha tthrow in the towel to soon.And if Sonc ihas trouble agaisnt a lot of character expalin to me why cna he **** u pmost of the heavies character(expect for Snake),and he can pw nmsot of the melee tone down character also.I hope you give Sonic another try instaed going to a noob character.

 

[Vice Lord]

I think you could take out wolf if you play patiently and attack him from places that he can't defend well from, like above. Or punish one of his aerials as all but dair lag alot. His nair has zero stun time at end so you can react first if you're quick. On the ground forward smash spamming is always a problem, just space it out. Ultimately you'll have to work a lot harder to get hits in, I main fox and find alot of trouble for myself vs wolf, but like sonic, take advantage of your speed. Or you could be smart and smoke a joint, then pull their controller out. West side ez.

 

[Adamated]

I think most people are missing the point of this post, Sonic Is not that good. Unless someone figures out how to move his spring like a PK thunder or make the spidash have super high priority the entire time then Raze is right. Competitively, sonic is a bad decision for quite a few characters, however as a counter pick, he is quite good. So I say, switch to the character you want, this definately wont be like melee for a long while folks, but when it does, sonic will be up there.

 

[Browny]

i think ill continue to believe the actual results. Sonic is still winning some big tourneys around the place and people obviously know what it takes to beat marth and falco etc. hopefully through enough practice i, and many others will be able to as well. I mean sure we could all throw in the towel and go easy mode with the top tier characters, but if people like that mr 3000 can win massive tourneys with sonic, it really is only a matter of time until we all get to that stage. look at supposedly good characters like luigi, fox, zelda, diddy. what have they won to prove it? Sonic obviously has the potential, but do YOU have the dedication to stick it out and master him, when it takes a LOT longer than any other character? glory seeking ftl tbh.

 

[Dan_X]

Wow, Similar to my story--- Kinda...

Wow R4ZE, I Know exactly how you feel! Okay so I'm good at Smash, but have yet to attend a tourney. Yeah, lame I know. It's just I never knew much about that scene. I may attend some soon though, blah blah...

Okay, so my friend is really good at this game, like Melee before it. I say really good, because out of all of my friends he's one of the only people who can stand up to me. In Melee, I didn't hang out with him as much, but we played like 10-15 1vs1s and I only lost one... I played as Sheik.

Now that Brawl is out, I hang out with this kid more often now, usually to duke it out Smash style.... He mains Wario and Snake. He actually makes Wario look good too, which is surprising. 2-3 weeks ago, I played with him a ton, doing constant 1vs1s. At the time, I mained Sonic, and Falco, and considered Dedede-- I left my Melee main (Sheik) in the past, as I didn't like the way she played in Brawl.

Our matches were back and forth, he'd win, I'd win. Once I got the hang of dealing with Snake, my Sonic tore through him, though it still took a great deal of effort. My Falco did decent as well. In the end, we were still fairly equal.

Three weeks has passed, and I've refined my skills ten fold. In addition, I've shifted mains. I began practicing the Ice Climbers about 4 weeks back, but decided to unveil them when I was ready... As such, my friend didn't know I mained them. In addition, I've improved a ton with Falco, and a ton with both Sonic and Sheik (yes, my old main has returned!).

I fought him again, this time, I was more than ready to take on his Snake and Wario. I obliterated them each round, with Sheik, then Falco, then the Ice Climbers... This particular friend is the kind of Smasher who abandons his main whenever he can no longer win with said main, which to be honest is ********. Once I beat the crap out of him, he dropped both Wario and Snake and turned to WOLF. Apparently, he has played Wolf against his roommate multiple times as a counter to his Fox.

I still had him beat with my Falco, and the Ice Climbers put up a good fight.. but I didn't care about winning with those two characters, I really wanted to stomp him with Sheik. I went from owning his top characters with Sheik to having an incredibly difficult time with Wolf.

Finally, I turned to Sonic again. I knew that I've often times over whelmed this friend with Sonic's speed, mauling his Wario and Snake with him, so I assumed the next match against Wolf would follow suit.

I don't think I've ever been more annoyed in my life (as far as smash is concerned). Usually I Spin dash into a slew of combos, often times I trick my enemy and jump and do a homing attack.... This however was near impossible against Wolf. His freaking gun halted my every approach, he wouldn't stop. He kept shooting. My only option aside from continuously spot dodging and getting nowhere was to attempt aerial pursuit. Obviously, this is what he wants...

Upon my aerial approach, he'd greet me with a counter, be it a spot dodge followed by a dsmash, or a utilt/usmash, whatever, he thwarted my aerial approach. As soon as I would back from him to spin dash towards him, he'd shoot me out of the dash every time. Simply using the air was not enough, I couldn't combo him. To make things worse, Wolf has fairly decent priority over many of Sonics aerial attacks with his own aerial attacks, notably Wolf's uair.

It was utter slaughter, I stood no chance against Wolf. I was so P'd off, I fought him at least three maybe four times in a row as Sonic, and lost miserably each time. We played 3stock matches, and often times he'd beat me with 2stock remaining.

I have NO idea how to deal with a character like Wolf with Sonic-- it's bad enough fighting Wolf with Sheik, but Sonic?? My God. The thing is, I know what I'm doing with Sonic, I'm good at landing b-airs. I stutter step his fsmash... I use the spring effectively, and cancel the landing lag of the dair. My point is I'm not an idiot with Sonic... Yet, still... I had NO chance whatsoever against a character that my friend had only recently started playing...

In the end, I tried out Lucas, and kicked Wolf's behind. In addition, I was quite successful with Falco and the ICs as well.

On an end note, my fight as Falco was epic. I knocked him off the edge and jumped out to meet him, I used my second jump to move upwards a bit, and then performed my d-air (Falco's spiking move). At this same time, my friend used Wolf's illusion recovery, and it slanted up exactly where I had anticipated it would. It was met with my d-air, and he was spiked to death... It happened so fast, but it was so bad ***!

So, is this the verdict? Is Sonic just incapable in dealing with a competent Wolf despite how good the Sonic player is?

 

[Boxob]

So, is this the verdict? Is Sonic just incapable in dealing with a competent Wolf despite how good the Sonic player is?

Yes.

Spoiler

10****tysonics

 

[Fat Otaku]

Here is one huge perk for Sonic. ITEMS ON! But seriously. You are going to get alot farther with a top tier like Marth, Toon Link, Olimar, R.O.B., and Snake. I admit... I originally intended to main Sonic. And of course I do... ok. But I was getting much easier kills with Wolf. And eventually I mained him. Now... well I just dont feel very good. I always felt a win with Sonic is a win with style and skill. And ****it, me winning a top level tournament is going to depend mostly on my skill and ability to read my opponent. Not the character I am using.

 

[Seventh Sword]

Good Sonic is good. People just have to learn to play him effectively. When I match my two friends (one mains Pika, the other Wolf), I just annoy the living hell out of them by forcing them into grabs and knocking edge guarding them - I usually win about 2 out of 3 matches against them.

Admittedly, Sonic doesn't seem as potent as other characters right now, but I just feel like he's gonna surprise us in the near future.

 

[Tenki]

Meh.

Wolf is just hard to approach in general. But this guy has the right idea ._.;

First 10 seconds.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

i think ill continue to believe the actual results. Sonic is still winning some big tourneys around the place and people obviously know what it takes to beat marth and falco etc. hopefully through enough practice i, and many others will be able to as well. I mean sure we could all throw in the towel and go easy mode with the top tier characters, but if people like that mr 3000 can win massive tourneys with sonic, it really is only a matter of time until we all get to that stage. look at supposedly good characters like luigi, fox, zelda, diddy. what have they won to prove it? Sonic obviously has the potential, but do YOU have the dedication to stick it out and master him, when it takes a LOT longer than any other character? glory seeking ftl tbh.

I have the guts to take my Sonic to the max.Hell,I did it with Kirby and G&W.I think Sonic is good character becasue of his speed.Why? Well,speed+combos=mindgames,and character like Marth and Falco are easy wins for me.

 

[Hitage]

where and when was this tourney? i live in kissimmee so i was pretty close

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wolf is incrediblym difficult for Sonic to approach because homing attack has a chance of leaving you vulnerable, spin dash can't cut through the blaster. Wolf is just an extremely difficult character for Sonic to get past.
Its not bad that he had to switch to someone, he knew that a decent wolf would kill him despite the fact he was far more skilled so he switched.
That's the entire point of having other mains, so make up for what your character cannot do.


For myself I use Ike and Link.
Link for fighting Wolf and Marth. (grapple ****)
ike for fighting MK and Luigi.
Sonic for everyone else with the other two coming into play when he can't get the job done.

 

[R4ZE]

well me and my crew made it a point to attend tournaments every other weekend. we usualy only have problems against the poeple that make top 3 in tournaments... and eachother of course...

but honestly every fight i have with sonic is intense just because it rquires so much beating, and then it requires me to land 1 of 4 killing blows, meanwhile they hit me 3 times on average, and im dead

im not saying it impossible for sonic to win or anything.. (i really do win with sonic a lot) and i know a fantastic player can bring sonic to a new glory, but it definately will not be easy.


now.. im not talking tiers... but in terms of how easy a character is to play.. I think sonic is the HARDEST character in the game to play well... because most of the time u have to abuse your speed... but its not that easy, you actually have to know when ur opponent is NOT DOING ANYTHING (and cant do anything) because... other than spindashing and d-airing... most of the time sonic tries to meet his opponents attacks, he gets out prioritied... there is jsut a lot to learn with sonic.

and i also beleive that wolf is the EASIEST character to learn... because he just has a lot of moves that are fast, good priority, and spammable. a 6 year old could pick up wolf.. and do decent. I think a pro G&W, falco, DDD, or marth can destroy a pro wolf....
**in the case of wolf, what im saying is... a pro wolf, is not too far off from a noob wolf unless its wolf v wolf

yes sonic can beat wolf, and i would love to see more on that exact topic. i guess some would call it throwing in the towel... but sonic is my 2nd... i just want to try falco for a bit and see how much better i do in tournaments..

in thoery. i should do a lot better. but we will see. i know it will atleast be easier to beat the scrubz.

 

[kingofwaddles]

sonic is only good in competitive against certain characters of course, there is no character like marth in melee that owns everyone.

in brawl, everybody has exploitable weaknesses.
wolf fish eats sonic fish,
sonic fish eats king ddd fish

ETC, it depends on skill as well.

 

[chaindude]

i find it semi hard to approach a wolf i just run as soon as i see the gun pop out i raise my sheild i can either attempt to move forward or he will come to me the hardest part is when he starts spamming the D smash to me at least pop him the air the lazy gun spaming gone smash's gone...just watch out for the D air

thats my tactic it is working for me maybe it will work for you and like sonic some more ^_^

 

[Kricu]

Maybe I just haven't played a descent wolf but I have found no problems against him. I'm not sure what I do to avoid these problems that everybody seems to be having but what I have done has worked for me. The only few characters I have problems against are Luigi, Ike and Pikachu. Other than that I don't have a huge issue. I'm not saying that I win all the time because I am not that great. I'm just saying that I don't seem to have a problem and the matches are generally really even.


@kingofwaddles:
Since when was Marth really good in melee? Sheik was the goddess of death in that game. Of course that is my opinion but I was never impressed with Marth at all. Everybody always seems to comment on Sheik and Fox from melee being broken.

 

[R4ZE]

sonic has a wide range of playstyles.. I mean u have to play differently vs other characters too of course.

I most likely slipped up that wolf game, because getting 2 stocked by a noob was embaressing...
i probly lost hope because... in previous games i was able to time side B's to where the invulnerability frames would absorb lasers and then i would spin combo into him and it worked great but i missed that timing because of how the laser hits before it actually graqphicly hits sonic.... and maybe that just offset my motivation, plus past losses against noob wolfs may have intimidated me....

tournament playing is a lot more intense than regular *for-fun* matches for me, and it alters my playing somtimes. so that may have had somthing to do with it as well.

 

[Boxob]

Just picked up Fox, best smash choice I've ever made, besides going back to Falco in Melee instead of Mewtwo >_>

 

[Shoop70]

Since when was Marth really good in melee?

wat?

10char

 

[FrostByte]

wat?

10char

QFT .

 

[Dan_X]

Maybe I just haven't played a descent wolf but I have found no problems against him. I'm not sure what I do to avoid these problems that everybody seems to be having but what I have done has worked for me.

You my friend have not fought a competent Wolf. Ground level approaches are unconventional, as such, are near impossible, all thanks to Wolf's laser. A spamming Wolf forces the Sonic player into an aerial approach, however this is precisely what the Wolf player wants. He'll break from the spamming just in time to counter your aerial. This will often be executed via a spot-dodge, followed by a down smash. This is ultimately what Sonic vs Wolf matches turn into. Unfortunately, due to Sonic's short ranged attacks, and lack of projectiles he has no choice when countering but making for a physical approach. This means that once the Wolf begins his spamming, Sonic is reduced to aerial game, simply put. To make things worse, Wolf has better aerial priority, and some overall annoying aerial attacks.

In the end, an above average Sonic player will have to play 10x more intently to beat a near below average Wolf player, it's a broken match up if you ask me. The only chance a Sonic has against a good Wolf is mind games, and with limited approaches, even mind games suffer.

 

[cobaltblue]

Sonic is the tragic Tier character. He is tops at items and Team Play, but simply can not hang at 1v1 which sadly is the most popular smash mode to play.

Still, I see no shame in using another character to fight wolf. Infact I don't think there is a single character in brawl who doesn't have a total counter that forces their opponent to change.

 

[R4ZE]

I just thought of a pretty good idea... ok here are my thoughts:
-sonic is not the worst character in the game
-sonic is definately not fit to fight certain characters, If i fight a metaknight or wolf on my same skill level, i will most likely lose
-BUT sonic actually is on a level playign feild with a lot of characters, and he actually even counters some characters. I find that i fight extremely well against DDD for example

so my plan is: (because i play competetively)
I am going to use sonic, but when I come up against characters such as wolf or metaknight, I can use wolf for now, and probobly falco once i learn him better.

 

[memphischains]

I'm confused why no one understood this when people like LuCKy, Izzy, I, and others were saying this before.
I mean, I'm sort of confused about the Wolf issue but, I have been saying that Sonic is a hard character to play all a long, and that only like maybe 7 people have a good enough Sonic to play competitive.

 

[R4ZE]

basicly. a sonic, once passed the big learning curve... can hang with most of the characters in the cast.

but i'm pretty convinced that no matter how learned a sonic player is, a wolf will atleast always have an edge on him. Metaknight probobly will too.

 

[Dan_X]

so my plan is: (because i play competetively)
I am going to use sonic, but when I come up against characters such as wolf or metaknight, I can use wolf for now, and probobly falco once i learn him better.

Ewwwwww... Wolf is noob sauce.

 

[Dsparil]

When I saw the official Smash Boards video review, I was in so much denial about Sonic being at the bottom of the tier list aka "Sonic Tier".

I was saying to myself "He isn't that bad", "I kick everyone's *** on WiFi", and "These guys just don't know how to play as Sonic".

I then started getting people on my friends list and did 1v1 /w no items and got my *** handed to me more often than not.

I'm finally out of the denial stage (kind of ) and into the acceptance stage; therefore, I'm going to main Lucario from now on.

 

[GDX]

I just thought of a pretty good idea... ok here are my thoughts:
-sonic is not the worst character in the game
-sonic is definately not fit to fight certain characters, If i fight a metaknight or wolf on my same skill level, i will most likely lose
-BUT sonic actually is on a level playign feild with a lot of characters, and he actually even counters some characters. I find that i fight extremely well against DDD for example

so my plan is: (because i play competetively)
I am going to use sonic, but when I come up against characters such as wolf or metaknight, I can use wolf for now, and probobly falco once i learn him better.

oh, you were at arcade renaissance too? How did you end up doing? You going to gigs?

I hope you're going to gigs, cause i've picked up sonic as a secondary play-around character, but i dont wanna suck *** with him, so i need you teach me his ways

 

[R4ZE]

at arcade rennessaince i did ok. I faught a zelda first match. I won round1, but then after that he pitched a tent and spammed smashed when i would approch.

i lost the 2nd round because he would sit under platforms, and i killed msyelf once.. i probly wasn't playing A game because i won the first round.

the third round, he berely won, we were both at high damage and he hit me with a forward smash when i approached. everyone in the room was freaking out yelling random ****. i didnt care.


in losers bracket i stomped some noobs, i think i won the next 3 or 4 rounds no problem with sonic, then i came up to the wolf player... i covered that match in the first post of this thread.


and finally i came to a metaknight after wolf. i played as sonic and lost because i couldnt really get near him, i was kinda demoralized at the point, the 2nd round i played against meta i used pokemon trainer.. no real logic or reasoning behind that, just felt like it.

I heard that i got 5th or sixth in the tournament, but i didnt stick around to really know for sure.


I'll talk to my crew about attending gigs, it looks pretty sick.


*EDIT*
*even if i do go, i won't be competing with sonic, I will probobly do mostly falco with some wolf thrown in.

just for the sake of experimentation i have to see if i am any better/worse competetively with characters other than sonic.