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Social Roy Social - R O Y B O Y Z

The Merc

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I will discuss and go into buff ideas here despite my general standpoint, but I want to make it clear that I don't want to get too caught up in dreaming of buffs; I'd like to simply lay any groundwork for a potential buff analysis, if we decide to pull one together.



Unfortunately, as someone who was a previous Ike main and sometimes used DK in tournament before Roy, I feel like their combo throw buffs ultimately made them play in a more linear fashion. Ike's play pretty much equates to dthrow or uthrow to fair and sometimes nair a jarring amount, it's almost all I see at lower percents and it's admittedly what has to be done to play him optimally. I use them when I play Ike in friendlies, because why not? They're free tools that benefit the character, I'd be dumb and overly-prideful to neglect them. DK's ding dong is really prevalent in his play and makes grabs much more valuable than the rest of his kit a lot of the time. These changes made how they play more limited and took some of the creativity out of playing them, in my opinion.
One thing I admire about Roy's design is that you constantly have to weigh and consider how much reward jab, fair, uair, fthrow, dthrow, nair, and single-hits reward you, and act accordingly. You have some moves like bair and dtilt that occasionally create followups with diligent use, and sourspots can sometimes create followups. You have to be creative at all points with your punish game and work hard to optimize, and good reads and frame traps are our best tools. If anything, I would prefer changes that polish his punish game up, where everything works at least just a bit better and fails less, rather than one or two new god-tier options. Overall fundamental building will give me similar things, which is why I dig it so much.

If Roy got a down or back throw that would combo into practically anything from 0 to 120 or something like that, then it would make Roy's optimal play to constantly go for grabs and abuse them. It would make his play more binary (limited to few options) or limit it to a small flowchart. The For Glory Roys who dthrow -> Blazer constantly no matter what would reign king. It would be unhealthy to our meta and use of the character, and his gameplan would flow less naturally and have a more fatty feel to it. We'd be swarmed more with players who want to abuse easy options to win. Plus with Roy's mediocre grab range, we're better off with general kit improvements. Roy could have one of the most beautiful smash designs imo if he was designed just a bit better, but patches can fix that, and maybe Roy's just underdeveloped and my work will create that design. I'll do everything I can over time to develop, it's not something that'll just come if I wish hard enough, and it's not good to linger in certain areas too long.

Even if I feel that way now, I wouldn't complain about this kind of buff if we did get it. I am overall overwhelmingly positive about the Ike buffs, even with my gripes about throwcharts. I'm grateful for anything noteworthy we'd get in the future.

I have a private writeup from last night that you might like, I'll send it your way soon.

I dig the new name, by the way.
Okay, so if I am correct in understanding you want to give Roy more option but not give him any bread and butter options (i.e Sheiks old Fthrow to Fair etc)

Yeah, I think I understand where you are coming from though

Also thanks, though I kind of wish I made it just "The Merc"

:135:
 

TheSpnBrm

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I do have one idea on who to approach, someone who might be down to lead the project and someone who is very knowledgeable on frame data and is respected in the community. A Roy main. I'll message them soon.
.
With that being said I'm looking to do so with input from multiple levels of play, grouping the data and feedback together to propose a almost "Universal set of changes" that could be proposed to better streamline his design without polarizing him as a character. If that person would be willing to work alongside me and take over the frame data and technical interacts behind things so that we can make sure our changes are sound from a game design standpoint I would love to do so.

Right now I'm looking to ask these types of groupings.
Lower level Roy players, Middle level competitive players such as Ian who is 2nd place within my state NC's power ranking who plays Roy.
One or two higher level players such as Sethlon to kinda wrap the whole Roy communities ideas into one proposed set of changes that would be healthy and better highlight his niche better.
 

Shaya

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Hmm, I'd basically like to think of it as either
major structural change to things like Ike and Link have seen before
or we go with what we have, but make it better.

Structural change feels so necessary to me to make what could be the perfect character (in the same vein people see Marth as a perfect character in previous installments, but the 'anti' version of him). Still a heavy focus on spacing and fundamentals.
But that's how I see the character, not necessarily how people here see him (I can relate to the mix between a swordie and a 'fighter' that people see here, and that seems like the easier path to go down) nor how the design and development team potentially see him*. Me stating to alter the angles of all his tips or sprucing them up to be always effective would buff him, make him better at high and top level and wouldn't necessarily make him dumb at lower levels, but it would take a lot of effort to get it right.
*Marth at release could've gone down a completely different path with what areas they decided to not gut vs the things they did gut, what we thought would be a push towards a weird footsie prone character was not how they went about buffing him, they essentially undid some of the Brawl nerfs + buffed his "strengths". It seems they ended up going with something simple/similar to previous games than make him a whole new character like we thought may have happened.

Simply put, if they did exactly what they've done to Marth on Roy, it would be simple for us to understand and we'd see immediate benefits.
Sword range/disjoint increase
damage increase on aerials
end lag off of normals
voila.

He'd be better and our work would be done. He wouldn't necessarily be the next Zero Suit or Bayonetta, but he'd feel better for everyone who uses him.
Asides from up tilt though, his end lag on normals is pretty good though. If Up tilt was faster end lag I'd say that move would be insanely good. Anything further off of jab may make the move too abusive/good too.
It's a delicate balance.

But certain things I would like to see on both Marth/Roy + the normalization things I mentioned above would be ideal. Tipper/sour spot tweeks would be super ideal, but over time I get better at understanding and using them as they are anyway.
Like, tipper rising bair hits a lot of characters and with a really low base combos well for a really long time.
 
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LonkQ

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On that note of Up Tilt, what are the best uses of the move? This thing is frustrating to say the least. The hitbox feels kind of awkward with the front hit being nearly non-existent while the back is somewhat larger, but it still feels small as a whole. It reminds me a bit of Uair in that sense, although Uair feels much more flexible and usable.
 

Shaya

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I tend to always aim for the behind hit, and if it's low percent turn around into the front to have it combo again. Really gud damage.
The sweet spot extends to above his head and stays there throughout hitbox duration - it sweet spots on battlefield platforms, so if they're directly above you it's very excellent.
Dthrow perfect pivot forward into up tilt will cover people doing proper dthrow DI at early percent and should sweetspot.

Honestly if up tilt had the same end frame as what Marth's up tilt had now, I'd actually be worried the move would be too good lol.
Oh and the tipper hit behind you is fair amount of horizontal range and sends them diagonally up behind you which has no true follow ups (hence me worrying if the move got end frame reductions) but sets up very well.
 
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LonkQ

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I might have to try it more then. I barely use the move as it is, Fthrow is the one I use most for combos, tech chasing, pretty much everything besides late Uthrow kills so it means I don't really get many Utilt set ups at low percents. I find myself trying to use Uair stuff on people on platforms, I'm not completely sure on the Utilt range directly above him so I'm uncomfortable just tossing it out. Maybe I've just gotten a bad impression from the move because I found myself getting punished for landing it at very low percents.
 

Shaya

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Yeah you need to hit behind you at low percents and depending on character it can be not safe at 0%.
Hopefully the battlefield platform indicator will help ^_^

I go for down throw up air (full hop fast fall at higher percent) generally unless I have an indication I can get near-guaranteed fthrow follow ups [i.e. near the edge but not enough so they can slip onto the ledge/forced into a harsh tech situation]. Once up air starts to tipper [i.e. not that helpful] I start going for fthrow more often and mix up with bthrow on occasion (DI away for fthrow sends them directly up with bthrow, you may find bairs from it, you could maybe call it a 50/50)
 
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The Merc

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So after reading some of the character buff list things (particularly Shulk's with the animation faults) I decide to have a look a Roy's move to see if there were any that meed to have a bit of a fix.

Well, a bit of a fix is a small understatement


Start of Fair (the move did actually go through Sheik, didn't hit her)


End of move. Again, Slash animation is still there, but no hitbox

Just.... why?

:135:
 
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Jiom

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Changes for Roy that wouldn't directly equate to buffs but might make him a more well-rounded character.

DED is something that could be changed for the better, without outright buffs. It could be made to link more reliably, at both high and low percents. There are times where it hits the opponent and they just pop out of it, or it just outright doesn't combo together and people are able to shield before we can start the next swing.



Other changes I could see being more mobility based, such as changes to his initial dash/dash transition.
As of current, Roy has the slowest worst transition, being able to act after 17 frames (tied with 2 other characters).For refeference, the best is at 8 frames which is what sheik has.


Another big detriment Roy has, brought to my attention by Shaya, is Roy's air acceleration. For being a character that has high air speed this is really detrimental and seems counterproductive to his kit. He has 3rd worst air acceleration being tied with ganondorf.
(0.03)

Something else that would also be of aid to Roy is adding 2 more frames to his short hop duration. How big of a change could this be? Well let me tell you what this does, this let's Roy have *gasp* one aerial that could Autocancel! Roy currently has 30 frames of air time while performing a shorthop and his bair autocancel window is just outside of this margin, being on frame 32. Fair autocancel window being frame 33.
Not sure as how they would go about changing this though as there are a multitude of options, be it slightly higher short hop, less of
An effect with gravity, or maybe even just changing the autocancel window on some of his aerials.


If this were to be remedied, another change such as adding 3 (maybe less, not sure of how drastic of a change this would be) frames of endlag to his rolls or spotdodge would be well enough to compensate for some of the aforementioned changes. Roy is tied for 2nd best rolls in terms of endlag with about 10 or so characters as it currently stands. (Fastest is 11, Roy = 12, slowest is 18 which is exclusive to bayonetta, next worst is 16)

Let me know if you agree to these changes, this is all stuff I experienced from playing. I would really like to hear your opinions and maybe even other changes you have in mind from personal experiences you have had with Roy.

Edit: For anyone curious, most data used was taken from http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Attributes
 
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Valzy

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Thats like saying Roy is nothing at all like Marth in Melee. None of his aerials work because their just like Marth's but now with terrible kb and sweet spots.
I really wish they got rid of clones, Rou deserves his own character.
 

Tahu Mata

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On the topic of buffs, here's a list of all the ones I'd want if possible. I'm not an expert at this kind of stuff at all, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

The Merc

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*sees no one took note of Fair hitbox inconsistencies

;-; okay......

On the topic of buffs, here's a list of all the ones I'd want if possible. I'm not an expert at this kind of stuff at all, so take it with a grain of salt.

*Forward smash mediumspot removed

....


How exactly is that a buff?

:135:
 

Tahu Mata

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*sees no one took note of Fair hitbox inconsistencies

;-; okay......



*Forward smash mediumspot removed

....


How exactly is that a buff?

:135:
Ehhh, yeah, I kinda messed up in wording that correctly. I meant that that part of the move should be as strong as the full sweetspot too.
 
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LonkQ

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If there's one buff I'd ever, ever want, I want the slashing portion of Flare Blade to do damage again like in Melee or PM. I loved that move and I barely use it now.
 

Tahu Mata

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If there's one buff I'd ever, ever want, I want the slashing portion of Flare Blade to do damage again like in Melee or PM. I loved that move and I barely use it now.
Yeeeeah, same here. I still love Flare Blade, but I don't use it anywhere near as much as I do in Melee/PM.
 

The Merc

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I don't know. It does have less endlag then other smash attacks (Pit's Fsmash)

Plus it does to a fair amount of shield stun

:135:
 
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Happy page 100! =D not only do we have this on the old DLC thread, now we have it here. What timing for T Tahu Mata to return again.



Admittedly, I've been skimming and lurking the whole day, and I took note most of The Merc The Merc 's screenshots of forward air clipping right through Sheik.
EDIT: I was able to properly catch up after a while.

On the Facebook account I use for regional groups and wifi matches, I reposted them there (https://www.facebook.com/groups/SuperSB4/permalink/1130859290269248/) to spread awareness on the move, and shared it in a few places.

If any of you have Facebook, sharing the post to your timelines, in smash groups, in messages with other Roy players or friends you play with a lot, and just pretty much anywhere that seems appropriate will help immensely.

I don't know how to reddit, but I tried here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4fvxho/roys_hitboxes_problems_and_potential_solutions/

I'm normally not a fan of reddit, since I run into a lot of animosity and toxicity, and I feel the upvote/downvote system is awful for gaming communities, so I don't know how to use the site. However, if there's anything about my post I can improve or fix, please let me know.

Both links are public, but outside of Facebook, I feel that spreading the Reddit one might be more appropriate.

I wanted to give proper credit, but I wasn't sure to what extent I wanted to. I didn't want anyone flooding the social or any users here after the post.




With that being said I'm looking to do so with input from multiple levels of play, grouping the data and feedback together to propose a almost "Universal set of changes" that could be proposed to better streamline his design without polarizing him as a character. If that person would be willing to work alongside me and take over the frame data and technical interacts behind things so that we can make sure our changes are sound from a game design standpoint I would love to do so.

Right now I'm looking to ask these types of groupings.
Lower level Roy players, Middle level competitive players such as Ian who is 2nd place within my state NC's power ranking who plays Roy.
One or two higher level players such as Sethlon to kinda wrap the whole Roy communities ideas into one proposed set of changes that would be healthy and better highlight his niche better.
At absolute best, I'm maybe mid-level.

I have a few posts I could link where I go into thoughts on issues and buffs, and the comments and discussions on those are the most important parts.

I also have something I sent to a few members as a Roy analysis, I can inbox that as well if you'd like.

On that note of Up Tilt, what are the best uses of the move? This thing is frustrating to say the least. The hitbox feels kind of awkward with the front hit being nearly non-existent while the back is somewhat larger, but it still feels small as a whole. It reminds me a bit of Uair in that sense, although Uair feels much more flexible and usable.
You can cover someone rolling/dashing into you or use it as an anti-air.

I sometimes confirm into it from nair 1 or sourspot uair at higher percents to KO.

Sometimes it can combo into itself or up air, though these are tight windows. I've done nair before, too.

I use it to cover landings onto the lower 2 platforms on Battlefield, it can sweetspot and kill when you're standing below them. It felt really satisfying to get this recently on Anther's.
 
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Shaya

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Those whiffing short falls in the animation are apparent on Marth/Lucina as well.
Essentially half to a frame of the swinging animation before and afterwards is not hitbox.

I've generally drastically noticed it less since they bumped up the range of Marth's moves.

DED working properly is actually a pretty big thing that I forget to mention a lot.
I [sub]consciously use the move so rarely on Roy because of how it's hitboxes knock you out of it near guaranteed. I think there may have been some intent for it to combo in the air into blazer but we all know how aerial blazer is (and landing with aerial side-b gives you grounded side-b end lag, lololol).

Fixing it to be more consistent ala marf/lucina would be great.
Range buffs would also be great.
Damage buffs on aerials would be great.
End Lag on some things may be okay.

I feel like it's cheating that the way they've patched Marth over all this time so easily blinds me as to what would be best for him. But maybe because that is what's best for him.


Structural things like base stats / dash to shields / etc would be cool to see buffed but seem very unlikely (although I think Samus had her jump times altered recently?)
There is probably intention to him having such strong mobility caps on him with awkward to use specs for it. Old motto is Roy is a rocket, all speed, full throttle, no holding back, no time for foreplay.
28 frame AC on bair and aerial ko power on blazer #_# - old favourites.
 
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Tahu Mata

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Happy page 100! =D not only do we have this on the old DLC thread, now we have it here. What timing for T Tahu Mata to return again.
Woah, I didn't even realise. I returned at like the perfect time, haha.

So I've been a Smashboards member for almost a year now. Gotta say, it's been really nice getting to know you and everyone else.
 

TheSpnBrm

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Simply put, if they did exactly what they've done to Marth on Roy, it would be simple for us to understand and we'd see immediate benefits.
Sword range/disjoint increase
damage increase on aerials
end lag off of normals
voila.

He'd be better and our work would be done. He wouldn't necessarily be the next Zero Suit or Bayonetta, but he'd feel better for everyone who uses him.
This is def one path that's highly suggested as well, which will probably be first major question that will be asked when gathering info from other Roy players when I'm working towards the Roy assessment and community proposed changes.


I believe I know most of your options on this but I'll ask again to be sure.
What would guys rather see Roy lean towards more if had to be changed one way of the other?
Gaining more speed and precise movement to close the gap more, highlighting a better rush down theme?
Or would you rather see him gain more range, highlighting a more traditional swordsman theme?
 
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The Merc

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Admittedly, I've been skimming and lurking the whole day, and I took note most of The Merc The Merc 's screenshots of forward air clipping right through Sheik.
EDIT: I was able to properly catch up after a while.
Aw sweet :D. I just check your links and I have say very well written :)

Those whiffing short falls in the animation are apparent on Marth/Lucina as well.
Essentially half to a frame of the swinging animation before and afterwards is not hitbox.

I've generally drastically noticed it less since they bumped up the range of Marth's moves.

DED working properly is actually a pretty big thing that I forget to mention a lot.
I [sub]consciously use the move so rarely on Roy because of how it's hitboxes knock you out of it near guaranteed. I think there may have been some intent for it to combo in the air into blazer but we all know how aerial blazer is (and landing with aerial side-b gives you grounded side-b end lag, lololol).

Fixing it to be more consistent ala marf/lucina would be great.
Range buffs would also be great.
Damage buffs on aerials would be great.
End Lag on some things may be okay.
Yeah i, i thought about that and check to see if it was a thing for them the other day when i tested Roy and I found out it was. It's really shocking to be honest. Particularly when you compare to a move say like Ike's Fair (which has a hitbox all the way to the end)

Oh many, if DED connected better and the last hit of Up and Middle had more Kill power.... that would be heaven

:135:
 
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This is def one path that's highly suggested as well, which will probably be first major question that will be asked when gathering info from other Roy players when I'm working towards the Roy assessment and community proposed changes.


I believe I know most of your options on this but I'll ask again to be sure.
What would guys rather see Roy lean towards more if had to be changed one way of the other?
Gaining more speed and precise movement to close the gap more, highlighting a better rush down theme?
Or would you rather see him gain more range, highlighting a more traditional swordsman theme?
No doubt, range. I have really solid movement as a player, and I really push Roy's mobility as it stands. I'd be much more satisfied with better hitboxes and sweetspots than anything else. I'm happy with Roy's mobility, and I'm able to work around the quirks of it well.

Range would make him better against defensive options, it'd push his punish game further, and it'd make him a lot more consistent in design. Losing to shield is a HUGE thing Roy suffers from, and his options against shield would increase drastically. His lackluster neutral game would open up a decent amount, and he'd play more like his PM iteration, where he's not a king of spacing but he has range fitting of the Sword of Seals, along with a charged Flare Blade and mobility options that make sense for his design. Issues with moves falling short just a tiny bit of true combos or even decent followups so often, and DED linking would be mitigated at least a little.

Either way, I'd be overjoyed to receive changes for the better.
 
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Tahu Mata

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No doubt, range. I have really solid movement as a player, and I really push Roy's mobility as it stands. I'd be much more satisfied with better hitboxes and sweetspots than anything else. I'm happy with Roy's mobility, and I'm able to work around the quirks of it well.

Range would make him better against defensive options, it'd push his punish game further, and it'd make him a lot more consistent in design. Losing to shield is a HUGE thing Roy suffers from, and his options against shield would increase drastically. His lackluster neutral game would open up a decent amount, and he'd play more like his PM iteration, where he's not a king of spacing but he has range fitting of the Sword of Seals, along with a charged Flare Blade and mobility options that make sense for his design. Issues with moves falling short just a tiny bit of true combos or even decent followups so often, and DED linking would be mitigated at least a little.

Either way, I'd be overjoyed to receive changes for the better.
This. Roy has pretty dang bad range for a swordsman, and he could really use a buff in this aspect for many reasons.
 

TheSpnBrm

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No doubt, range. I have really solid movement as a player, and I really push Roy's mobility as it stands. I'd be much more satisfied with better hitboxes and sweetspots than anything else. I'm happy with Roy's mobility, and I'm able to work around the quirks of it well.

Range would make him better against defensive options, it'd push his punish game further, and it'd make him a lot more consistent in design. Losing to shield is a HUGE thing Roy suffers from, and his options against shield would increase drastically. His lackluster neutral game would open up a decent amount, and he'd play more like his PM iteration, where he's not a king of spacing but he has range fitting of the Sword of Seals, along with a charged Flare Blade and mobility options that make sense for his design. Issues with moves falling short just a tiny bit of true combos or even decent followups so often, and DED linking would be mitigated at least a little.

Either way, I'd be overjoyed to receive changes for the better.
This. Roy has pretty dang bad range for a swordsman, and he could really use a buff in this aspect for many reasons.
Noted, Thanks for the feedback.
Also Masoneliwood, I would like to get that Roy analyze when you have a chance. I'll be needing all the opinions and data I can get.
 
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LonkQ

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Honestly, I'd go for more speed. I actually don't have too many complaints about his range for the most part. Any I do have tend to be smaller complaints, like Utilt's weird hitbox or no Flare Blade's weirdness. The only substantial thing I want for range is something for beating ledge options better. Not being able to Dtilt or even Dsmash a lot of characters that hang on ledge super sucks. Maybe slightly better dash grab range too because that thing also super sucks but that might be asking for too much. Even better mobility would be pretty fun, plus if speed includes slightly better frame data in certain areas, I'd be all for it.
 

TheSpnBrm

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Honestly, I'd go for more speed. I actually don't have too many complaints about his range for the most part. Any I do have tend to be smaller complaints, like Utilt's weird hitbox or no Flare Blade's weirdness. The only substantial thing I want for range is something for beating ledge options better. Not being able to Dtilt or even Dsmash a lot of characters that hang on ledge super sucks. Maybe slightly better dash grab range too because that thing also super sucks but that might be asking for too much. Even better mobility would be pretty fun, plus if speed includes slightly better frame data in certain areas, I'd be all for it.
I'm on this side of the coin myself, we have a lot of swordmen who can play the general spacing game when if they want push an aggro play style.
Either way we go Roy will end up being able to properly space if either set of changes happened it would be more of a question as to how, so I'd rather see him have more intense and precise movement options making him really shine as fast paced character he was designed to be. Something else to note is that both sides of the changes will probably want trimming on our tilts frame data so this isn't the big focus as much the general idea how do we want him to play.
 

Tahu Mata

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I'm on this side of the coin myself, we have a lot of swordmen who can play the general spacing game when if they want push an aggro play style.
Either way we go Roy will end up being able to properly space if either set of changes happened it would be more of a question as to how, so I'd rather see him have more intense and precise movement options making him really shine as fast paced character he was designed to be. Something else to note is that both sides of the changes will probably want trimming on our tilts frame data so this isn't the big focus as much the general idea how do we want him to play.
I'd be fine with either personally.
 
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So there's a pretty big solar flare or storm affecting the connections where I live. I haven't been able to play online without horrendous lag, and I probably won't be able to for at least a few days. School districts haven't had real internet access, and this is during a testing period with an online test. I don't go to school right now btw, I just volunteer each week at a church and heard about it through there. It's disappointing, as it's affecting my general connection as well, but I felt like practicing Melee lately after some friendlies that happened at my last tourney once Wii U setups were being migrated out.

My skills have greatly diminished, and I can't play Roy there anymore because he's way too different (which ultimately makes me appreciate new changes more), but I really missed the movement options of that game and how much you could do with fundamentals alone. I really wish there was a scene I didn't have to drive 2-3 hours for on occasional trips, and I wish I could do Melee netplay. In a perfect world, I'd like to balance Melee and Wii U. For now, I'll hang back, take a break, and hope this ends pretty soon. It gives me a chance to review replays, look up new sets, and focus on other things, at least.
 
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Messages
1,296
Hello! Hey everyone.
Hey! Glad to have you on board.


Hopefully you enjoy your stay here, and if you need anything or if there's anything you're curious on, feel free to let us know.

Right now I'm just buckling down on labbing and solo practice since my connection's awful the next few days (solar flares suck), and putting more effort into weight loss to get better scale results once mid-May hits.



I forgot to post this earlier:
Anything you guys would like me to look into and test, or any topics you guys like me to write about during the downtime?
 

LonkQ

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 14, 2014
Messages
365
Location
Virginia
NNID
Ammoro
Because if I had everything I wanted, Roy would be SoS tier and we'd usher in a new era of 20FE.
 
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