Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[ChronoBound]

This is the reason why I think there will be a bigger focus on establishing new franchises instead of expanding upon existing ones. We already have the big names established for the most part, so maybe resorting to more minor stuff would be unappealing.

Of the more minor stuff (characters from series without a playable character), the only ones that are looking good enough to place in are Little Mac, Mii, and Shulk. Isaac still gets a lot of requests in the West, but he does not have the identity of being an "overseas popular" character like Little Mac and Ridley do.

So basically the only two "new series" characters that Sakurai is probably aware of getting a lot of requests are Little Mac and Shulk. The Mii's have lukewarm support amongst the Smash Bros. fanbase, but let's face it, they are the most popular thing Nintendo has created this past generation and Miis are now in everything. Sakurai originally wrote off Miis for Brawl, though that was before they really took off (he decided most of the roster in late 2005, a year before Wii Sports was released). However, even then its probably 50/50 on Miis being included in Smash 4.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Am still opposed to the Mii as a character. But honestly, Little Mac, Takamaru, Palutena, Chrom, King K.Rool, Ridley and Mewtwo would probably already be about half of the new cast so there's not much to discuss really. :/

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

So let me guess, Shulk pulling off Ness? I can see it happening...

But does this mean Isaac's support will die off now as the time goes on? People still support him a lot around...

On the other hand I dunno what to really wish from SSB4. Most of my wishes seem unrealistic even if they weren't deemed so before. Newcomer list tho seems something we can't really put our finger on. Either it just expanding the existing franchises like in Brawl or maybe we'll have more other series this time. I expect more of the former though.

 

[ChronoBound]

Agree that the list of potential newcomers is pretty bad though.

Sakurai going onto a Japanese Smash Bros. forum or blog and seeing that the two most wanted characters for Smash 4 are characters that were already playable in the series (Mewtwo and Roy) probably was a factor in making him think, "ok its reboot time now".

I would also throw in Takamaru as another "new series" character that is looking good, though he is a retro character and not a character from an active series like Little Mac, Mii, and Shulk (though Xenoblade is still a stand alone game) are.

So let me guess, Shulk pulling off Ness? I can see it happening...

I would be extremely shocked if Ness got cut. If there is a Mother character that has a chance of being cut its Lucas, not Ness.

On the other hand I dunno what to really wish from SSB4. Most of my wishes seem unrealistic even if they weren't deemed so before. Newcomer list tho seems something we can't really put our finger on. Either it just expanding the existing franchises like in Brawl or maybe we'll have more other series this time. I expect more of the former though.

I expect less characters in general this time. Also, I know that feel, I support Dixie Kong and Toad, and those two characters while they could get in, have a good chance of not making it.

I really hope Sakurai works to temper people's expectations this time when it comes to the roster.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Ah, I didn't meant that when I said "Shulk pulling Ness". What I meant is that Ness was from a standalone cult game and still got in as a playable. Shulk could maybe pull off the same if he's included.

 

[Frostwraith]

This is the reason why I think there will be a bigger focus on establishing new franchises instead of expanding upon existing ones.

wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

but I think there are series with potential yet, due to few released games.

I am referring to Pikmin, Kid Icarus and other retro series.

for the revived series, Punch-Out and Kid Icarus got games for Wii and 3DS, respectively. I don't know how they can expand on Punch-Out's concept, though.

I think Kid Icarus still has potential, considering that the series basis is Greek mythology, I think they can introduce more characters and settings. an idea for this series would be an action RPG with some elements already featured in Uprising. but this implies emphasis on story, which, as I already said, wouldn't be difficult considering what is the basis for the series. they could expand on the canon already estabilished on the three games released so far. another plus for the franchise are Dark Pit and the generic multiplayer fighters from Uprising, as having characters similar in ability to the protagonist leads to the possibility of having a co-op adventure, which is something I always welcome in games (loved Four Swords Adventure because of that).

Pikmin is getting a new game and what I can say is that the game is looking good so far. the unique gameplay is a key factor in this series. games with emphasis on exploration are less likely to get stale, in my opinion. the idea I explained above on Kid Icarus is being implemented in Pikmin 3, so this is one reason I am looking forward to this game.

but new IPs are also necessary, however these shouldn't replace already estabilished popular series.

another point I'd like to add is that nothing lasts forever, but as long as there's demand, I think the older series should continue (which doesn't necessarily mean milking, even though this is a very tempting tendency).

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think Scribblenauts is getting at least SOME content in Smash, if not Maxwell himself as being playable.

 

[ChronoBound]

Ah, I didn't meant that when I said "Shulk pulling Ness". What I meant is that Ness was from a standalone cult game and still got in as a playable. Shulk could maybe pull off the same if he's included.

Ness was not from a stand alone game. Mother already had two games by the time Ness was included (with a third game in development). The protagonist for the first Mother game, Ninten, was also very similar to Ness in appearance.

I think Scribblenauts is getting at least SOME content in Smash, if not Maxwell himself as being playable.

Its a third-party series.

 

[Frostwraith]

Ah, I didn't meant that when I said "Shulk pulling Ness". What I meant is that Ness was from a standalone cult game and still got in as a playable. Shulk could maybe pull off the same if he's included.

I think that Xenoblade, Pandora's Tower and Last Story should get some mention on SSB4. one of the characters from these three games could become playable, with the other two appearing as ATs.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Chrono: I know that, but I tried to kinda emphasize on the idea about EB being bit "stand-alone" since most of the things coming from that game... I mean, I wonder why they didn't use Ninten instead...

*Thinks suddenly about music and content from Mother 1 in Smash Bros*

Okay I think I got your point.

But should this mean then that Shulk might just get in because his game was a cult seller and... hm. Could be quite an achievement.

 

[SmashChu]

Sakurai going onto a Japanese Smash Bros. forum or blog and seeing that the two most wanted characters for Smash 4 are characters that were already playable in the series (Mewtwo and Roy) probably was a factor in making him think, "ok its reboot time now".

Not sure where your getting Reboot from.

Sakurai has said he's keeping the series the same in terms of gameplay. The only major change is they are making two games which is likely being done as the main game and the single player are growing so fast (and Brawl did load slow as a result). He's always said the same thing about characters. He said there are a lot of characters and is focus is not just adding characters. He said this during Brawl as well.

He'll add a lot of characters as there are still a good hand full to go around.

BTW, I'm skeptical on Waddle Dee. He has more of a role now, but is it enough to make him not a random enemy? I would like to know more about how popular he is in Japan.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Don't really think there are a 'good hand full' characters left. Especially as Sakurai also stated that not all characters are worthy of being in Smash.

 

[Frostwraith]

Chrono: I know that, but I tried to kinda emphasize on the idea about EB being bit "stand-alone" since most of the things coming from that game... I mean, I wonder why they didn't use Ninten instead...

*Thinks suddenly about music and content from Mother 1 in Smash Bros*

Okay I think I got your point.

But should this mean then that Shulk might just get in because his game was a cult seller and... hm. Could be quite an achievement.

if Ness got in SSB64, so can Shulk appear in SSB4, but don't expect Xenoblade to recieve much representation, unless they release more games of the franchise.

For already represented series, I think the dev team could add stuff like stages and music from such series, even if there aren't much new characters to add. I don't think it's weird that, despite only having Samus as a character, Metroid still got two new stages in Brawl and one returning from Melee (a total of three).

 

[FlareHabanero]

I don't see how there would be problems with representing Xenoblade considering the game in question has a lot to offer in terms of content. Also unlike The Last Story and Pandora's Tower, Xenoblade was developed by one of Nintendo's own studios.

 

[ChronoBound]

Not sure where your getting Reboot from.

Sakurai has said he's keeping the series the same in terms of gameplay. The only major change is they are making two games which is likely being done as the main game and the single player are growing so fast (and Brawl did load slow as a result). He's always said the same thing about characters. He said there are a lot of characters and is focus is not just adding characters. He said this during Brawl as well.

He'll add a lot of characters as there are still a good hand full to go around.

BTW, I'm skeptical on Waddle Dee. He has more of a role now, but is it enough to make him not a random enemy? I would like to know more about how popular he is in Japan.

Reboot was not the right word, but rather perhaps a gameplay overhaul. Sakurai's words about how they were probably close to the limit in terms of what's feasible regarding Brawl's roster size definitely means we will be seeing less newcomers than Brawl and likely Melee did.

As for Waddle Dee's requests in Japan, I would say overall he is probably Number 10 in requests in Japan. He gets requests, but there are several others that get much more requests than him. I already said I am skeptical about the character being included, though his situation and premise on paper (as in reason for inclusion in light of the present situation) looks better than most other veteran series characters that are not yet playable

I think a lot of characters missed their chance to become playable with Brawl.

 

[SmashChu]

Don't really think there are a 'good hand full' characters left. Especially as Sakurai also stated that not all characters are worthy of being in Smash.

Just a few that people have brought up

Waluigi
Ghirahim
Dixie
K. Rool
Ridley
Waddle Dee (...maybe)
Krystal
Pokemon in general
Samurai Gohor
Palutena
Warioware characters
Chrom and other Fire Emblem characters
Takamaru
Shulk
Little Mac
Karate Joe
Someone from Nintendo's downloadable titles like Dillon or Mallo
Other retro games I missed

Pikmin may also have more characters in a future installment with Pikmin 3. There is also the oprotunity to add more retro series and if Nintendo makes new IPs. Smash Brother additions are always going to get less and less popular because they were added in the previous version. Mario, Like and Pikachu were added in the first game, so it was always going to be downhill from there.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Oh well, I thought when you said good, you actually meant that they where all good characters.

 

[SmashChu]

Oh well, I thought when you said good, you actually meant that they where all good characters.

Subjective. Your definition of good is Impa.

 

[Diddy Kong]

She's at least re-occuring enough in one of Nintendo's top series. And more characters in Nintendo top series are disappearing instead of re-appearing so at least there Impa has an edge.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Chrono: Such a shame, really. I guess it just makes me really wonder why he even dismissed so much series at first place because now the series are kinda like "dropped off" in the same manner as Sukapon was.



Diddy: AND NOPE you better not start.

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

I kinda feel like a Sin and Punishment character has a decent chance, just because Sakurai seems to really dig that series. I mean, Kid Icarus Uprising takes a lot of concepts from it, and last I knew Sakurai was a fan. I'm just not sure how relevant people would think Saki as a playable character would be.

In terms of a "reboot" as you say Chrono, what ideas would that entail, like certain characters being cut, and old characters getting major overhauls?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Horsetail I haven't even made a thread yet (even though I attempted to, 3 times, all the times when I posted the thread the server logged me out and I lost all). So chill.

 

[Frostwraith]

Just a few that people have brought up

Waluigi
Ghirahim
Dixie
K. Rool
Ridley
Waddle Dee (...maybe)
Krystal
Pokemon in general
Samurai Gohor
Palutena
Warioware characters
Chrom and other Fire Emblem characters
Takamaru
Shulk
Little Mac
Karate Joe
Someone from Nintendo's downloadable titles like Dillon or Mallo
Other retro games I missed

Pikmin may also have more characters in a future installment with Pikmin 3. There is also the oprotunity to add more retro series and if Nintendo makes new IPs. Smash Brother additions are always going to get less and less popular because they were added in the previous version. Mario, Like and Pikachu were added in the first game, so it was always going to be downhill from there.

WAA and Bowser Jr. are only characters of the Marioverse that have any sort of chance. Daisy and Rosalina could be costume+voice swaps for Peach, unless they have their own movesets.

DK needs K. Rool for now and the only Zelda characters who have a shot are Impa, Tingle and Ghirahim. I don't think that WarioWare characters are likely.

with all that's known from Pikmin 3, I think they should keep Olimar, as the gameplay from 3 is very much the same as the other titles. however, they should add the new Pikmin species to Olimar's moveset. any other character could appear as costumes for Olimar.

Palutena is the likeliest Kid Icarus newcomer. Dark Pit could be a set of six darker colors + voice swap for Pit, unless Sakurai's team can think of a new moveset for him, but considering what people expected for Toon Link and what really happened...

from newer IPs, the only characters I can think of are Golden Sun's Isaac and Xenoblade's Shulk. Saki from Sin and Punishment counts as well.

for retro characters, there are a lot of possibilities: Takamaru, Lip, Prince Sable, Mach Rider, Balloon Figher... that's a hand full of different IPs here.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I don't see how Issac will have any chance at this point when Golden Sun as a whole was already rejected by default.

 

[SmashChu]

Reboot was not the right word, but rather perhaps a gameplay overhaul. Sakurai's words about how they were probably close to the limit in terms of what's feasible regarding Brawl's roster size definitely means we will be seeing less newcomers than Brawl and likely Melee did.

He's said the gameplay will be the same.

Sakurai has always said that in one way or another. So far, he has added more characters in each version. 64 added 12, Melee added 13, and Brawl added about 17 (though Pokemon Trainer is 3 and Sonic wasn't planned from the beginning). There are enough characters to justify 12-14.

The future of the series depends a lot on what happens with new IPs. It seems like Nintendo is doing better with downloadable titles (which could get a character) and there is also the addtion of 1200 employees which has been said to increase new IPs (especially as Miyamoto is planning on doing smaller games).

As for Waddle Dee's requests in Japan, I would say overall he is probably Number 10 in requests in Japan. He gets requests, but there are several others that get much more requests than him. I already said I am skeptical about the character being included, though his situation and premise on paper (as in reason for inclusion in light of the present situation) looks better than most other veteran series characters that are not yet playable

I think a lot of characters missed their chance to become playable with Brawl.

So he's not too high, but still up there. While I like the character, I'm skeptical since he could just be seen as a basic enemy. That's why I've never expected him.

I assume the top ten are: Mewtwo, Roy, Dixie, K Rool, Palutena, Shulk, Zoroark, Chrom, Waddle Dee and Mega man?

Also, when you say "some characters missed their chance" who are you referring too.

She's at least re-occuring enough in one of Nintendo's top series. And more characters in Nintendo top series are disappearing instead of re-appearing so at least there Impa has an edge.

So have Peppy and Tingle but no one expects them to be in either.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Habanero: Same for maybe many other series put as Assist Trophies.

It's bit of a boring feel when I think Smash Bros being kinda like "give and take"-game. Not much hoping now for some newcomers because they either missed their chances or just seem to struggle because they are given lots of barriers. I mean, look at Sega and their All-Star-games and the vast amount of franchises represented in them. I wish I could see more of that in Smash Bros. Transformed's bit of a mixed bag because some of some questionable quest characters (who's even that nascar racer chick), but it's still good.

 

[Frostwraith]

I don't see how Issac will have any chance at this point when Golden Sun as a whole was already rejected by default.

o_O on what grounds would you claim Golden Sun as rejected?

at least he would qualify to represent another IP...

 

[ChronoBound]

I don't see how Issac will have any chance at this point when Golden Sun as a whole was already rejected by default.

Isaac and Golden Sun were victims of being at the height of prominence at the wrong time. If Golden Sun and Isaac had the popularity they had during pre-Brawl right now, he would get in due to how much easier the competition is this time around. When Isaac had to get in for Brawl, he was competing with the likes of Wario, Diddy Kong, the Kirby duo, Olimar etc.

Golden Sun during pre-Brawl had far more fans and sales than Xenoblade does now. Its a shame that Camelot botched GS3.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Sometimes makes me wonder what happens if they actually featured these franchises in sake of giving some recognition instead of just promotional or competitional manner for a spot...

But that would create a real clustermess between many franchises, would it.

Also Assists must've filled this role already.

 

[Frostwraith]

Isaac and Golden Sun were victims of being at the height of prominence at the wrong time. If Golden Sun and Isaac had the popularity they had during pre-Brawl right now, he would get in due to how much easier the competition is this time around. When Isaac had to get in for Brawl, he was competing with the likes of Wario, Diddy Kong, the Kirby duo, Olimar etc.

Golden Sun during pre-Brawl had far more fans and sales than Xenoblade does now. Its a shame that Camelot botched GS3.

this is quite true, Isaac was competing with way more popular characters, but now that most series already have all the important characters in, I think the focus would be on new IPs.

DK still has K. Rool to be added, but after that, I don't see any possible DK newcomers.

 

[SmashChu]

WAA and Bowser Jr. are only characters of the Marioverse that have any sort of chance. Daisy and Rosalina could be costume+voice swaps for Peach, unless they have their own movesets.

DK needs K. Rool for now and the only Zelda characters who have a shot are Impa, Tingle and Ghirahim. I don't think that WarioWare characters are likely.

with all that's known from Pikmin 3, I think they should keep Olimar, as the gameplay from 3 is very much the same as the other titles. however, they should add the new Pikmin species to Olimar's moveset. any other character could appear as costumes for Olimar.

Palutena is the likeliest Kid Icarus newcomer. Dark Pit could be a set of six darker colors + voice swap for Pit, unless Sakurai's team can think of a new moveset for him, but considering what people expected for Toon Link and what really happened...

from newer IPs, the only characters I can think of are Golden Sun's Isaac and Xenoblade's Shulk. Saki from Sin and Punishment counts as well.

for retro characters, there are a lot of possibilities: Takamaru, Lip, Prince Sable, Mach Rider, Balloon Figher... that's a hand full of different IPs here.

This is all kind of what if. Your right, Pikmin 3 may show us there is no point in another Pikmin character. The point I'm making is that is still a good amount of characters for this game, and if Nintendo makes more IPs, characters wont be a problem.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Also when I was referring to the "rejected by default" part, I was referring to the only franchises worth bothering with characters is Pikmin and Animal Crossing thing Sakurai mentioned a few times. Considering how much Golden Sun: Dark Dawn was a flop and the series is dormant, I don't see how it'd be different this time around.

 

[Frostwraith]

This is all kind of what if. Your right, Pikmin 3 may show us there is no point in another Pikmin character. The point I'm making is that is still a good amount of characters for this game, and if Nintendo makes more IPs, characters wont be a problem.

and I do agree with it. there are still good characters for this game, especially those from retro franchises, but also from more recent series like Golden Sun and Xenoblade.

and give Dillon's Rolling Western or Pullblox / Fallblox (or Pushmo / Crashmo for those in US) some credit too.

Also when I was referring to the "rejected by default" part, I was referring to the only franchises worth bothering with characters is Pikmin and Animal Crossing thing Sakurai mentioned a few times. Considering how much Golden Sun: Dark Dawn was a flop and the series is dormant, I don't see how it'd be different this time around.

every series has its flops, but I don't think it should be an important factor when adding characters.

 

[ChronoBound]

I assume the top ten are: Mewtwo, Roy, Dixie, K Rool, Palutena, Shulk, Zoroark, Chrom, Waddle Dee and Mega man?

Also, when you say "some characters missed their chance" who are you referring too.

Yeah its prettty much Mewtwo, Roy, Mega Man, Palutena, Shulk, K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Chrom, Zoroark, and Waddle Dee who make up the Top 10 over there.

As for characters that missed their chance, I am thinking immediately of one game important characters like Midna, Lyn, and Micaiah. I am also thinking of characters that basically disappeared after Brawl's release such as Dark Samus, Krystal, Samurai Goroh, Black Shadow, and Ray (Custom Robo).

You also have the situation for Isaac and Golden Sun now that makes it seem as though he may have missed the boat too.

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

My one gripe with Smash is that it always relied to heavily on popular IPs as opposed to looking towards more obscure and niche games for characters. I wish we had more characters like Pit in smash. A character that is pretty much out of the blue, but makes a lot of sense and is interesting to play as.

Look at Playstation all stars for instance. It manages to have more IPs represented as characters then Brawl has, yet it has significantly less characters. I feel like I'd be extremely happy with Sm4sh if it had the likes of Issac, Takamaru, Shulk, Little Mac, and Saki and more. I'd take them over the likes of Ghirahim and Krystal any day.

 

[Opossum]

The one thing that I want to know: With Saki, Sakurai is shown to like the guy as a Smasher, but at the same time, his latest series entry was a commercial flop that didn't even star him. The series is still obscure, and he doesn't have the most vocal support.

Overall, I just want to know how you guys feel his chances are currently.

 

[ChronoBound]

every series has its flops, but I don't think it should be an important factor when adding characters.

The difference with Golden Sun's flop is that the series was on hiatus since 2003, and for it to come out of hiatus with a flop in a series with only three games, bodes very bad for the future of that series. We are closing in on a decade since the last successful game in that franchise.

The one thing that I want to know: With Saki, Sakurai is shown to like the guy as a Smasher, but at the same time, his latest series entry was a commercial flop that didn't even star him. The series is still obscure, and he doesn't have the most vocal support.

Overall, I just want to know how you guys feel his chances are currently.

I don't think Sin & Punishment is going to be revisited due to the second one bombing hard, and Treasure very, very rarely ever making a third game for a series they created (I can't think of any Treasure IPs were they made a second sequel for them). There is basically little support for a Sin & Punishment character in Japan too, and Saki is not getting much love in the West.

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

But a Saki moveset would be sooooo good >.<

This is why I hate how characters are chosen on popularity as opposed to if they could have an interesting playstyle, sure you gotta have your mascots, but damn could his moveset be awesome.

It sucks there is literally zero support for him...

 

[Opossum]

I just find the premise of a sword-gunslinger appealing. His AT in Brawl got me as far as that goes. I'd love for him to make it, but I've been pessimistic about his chances due to what I said above...

 

[Robert of Normandy]

But a Saki moveset would be sooooo good >.<

This is why I hate how characters are chosen on popularity as opposed to if they could have an interesting playstyle, sure you gotta have your mascots, but damn could his moveset be awesome.

It sucks there is literally zero support for him...

Agreed. Saki is an awesome character, and S&P 2 was an awesome game. Maybe if it were re-released as a downloadable title, it would do better.