Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Swamp Sensei]

The only difference is that I had Mr. Game & Watch, Isaac, and Starfy, while you had ROB, Takamaru, and Dillon.

A hardware rep, a sword user and a new series rep.

Coincidence?

 

[FlareHabanero]

A hardware rep, a sword user and a new series rep.

Coincidence?

Well, not exactly. It's pretty much unintentional.

The only difference is that I had Mr. Game & Watch, Isaac, and Starfy, while you had ROB, Takamaru, and Dillon.

Hence why I said that it wasn't surprising that it was similar. If the rule of using only one series rep was thrown out, I'd squeeze in some stuff like Luigi and King Dedede.

 

[Big-Cat]

Again, I ask...

If Sakurai did not add popular second-party Nintendo characters like Isaac and Saki over less popular first-party Nintendo characters like R.O.B. and Zero Suit Samus in Brawl, why would Sakurai add a popular second-party Mario character like Waluigi over less popular first-party Mario character like Toad or Bowser Jr. in SSB4?

Ownership isn't an issue if we already got third-party characters... pretty sure the rights to use them are harder to obtain than the second-party characters.

If I recall, Saki was always a first party character. Sin and Punishment is unique in that its developers are work for hire, but the series always belonged to Nintendo, hence why no reference to Treasure is ever made in Brawl. Also, I want to say that Team Shikamaru, a subteam of IS, works on the Metroid series barring the Prime series and Other M. They were mentioned in Super Metroid's credits, but I haven't seen them elsewhere under that name.

 

[ChronoBound]

Hence why I said that it wasn't surprising that it was similar. If the rule of using only one series rep was thrown out, I'd squeeze in some stuff like Luigi and King Dedede.

I would throw in Luigi and Jigglypuff as the only second reps for series for a 20 character roster, only because I would want to keep the original 12 in.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Also, let me explain the Assist and EX thing I mentioned a few posts ago.

The Assist feature is is basically what it sounds like. By pressing a button (for the sake of argument, the L2 button on the Wii U Pro Controller), you can summon an assist character that briefly preforms an action for a few seconds in a vein to the Assist Trophies. Each assist character is specific to a certain character, best illustrated with the 20 roster I've posted. Mario summons Luigi, Link summons Zelda, Samus summons Ridley, and so on.

The EX feature is essentially swapping a character with an alternate version of the character with an altered appearance and attributes, like in a vein to comparing an original character and an clone character in Melee. You do this by pressing L or R on the character select screen on the character you desire. Like changing Mario to Dr. Mario or changing Pit to Dark Pit.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'd have Samus summoning the Baby. I still think it should've been called the Hatchling in the English localization and someone were to tell Sakamoto why Baby wouldn't have flowed in the English dub.

 

[Oasis_S]

I would throw in Luigi and Jigglypuff as the only second reps for series for a 20 character roster, only because I would want to keep the original 12 in.

Kind of a weird rule people made up, considering Jiggs and Ness have been on the cutting block before but survived.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Kind of a weird rule people made up, considering Jiggs and Ness have been on the cutting block before but survived.

Arguably only Jigglypuff is on the cutting board. Ness was on the cutting board during the development of Melee, but due to EarthBound 64/Mother 3 being cancelled Ness wasn't replaced by Lucas. Even when Brawl came around, Lucas and Ness were together. In other words, Ness is no longer on the cutting board for any particular reason anymore.

 

[Banjodorf]

With Mother being a dead series, it'd be kind of a **** move to cut one of it's reps at this point anyway. Just let them stay and be an homage to something great.

 

[Oasis_S]

Arguably only Jigglypuff is on the cutting board. Ness was on the cutting board during the development of Melee, but due to EarthBound 64/Mother 3 being cancelled Ness wasn't replaced by Lucas. Even when Brawl came around, Lucas and Ness were together. In other words, Ness is no longer on the cutting board for any particular reason anymore.

Sure, but this "Original 12" thing isn't as Sacred as people make it out to be. Like you said, there's not much of a reason to argue against it, but it's just funny how people sort of made it up despite those two characters almost getting the boot.

 

[Starphoenix]

Oh crap, five alerts.

Every character has something. It's just really how much does it actually matter.

Take King K Rool. I'm guessing you're refering to the fact he hasn't been around in a while. But since when has that actually hurt a character. In fact we tend to give them more prestige when they've been around longer. Feel free to be more specific with your reasoning though.

Not sure why everyone is against the shoe-in thing. I figure it's that no one wants to look the fool if they are wrong.

I don't care about being wrong. If I say something off the wall and it doesn't happen, who cares? Most everyone here won't remember anyways. Nobody hinges with bated breath on my posts.

You could probably say that Mewtwo doesn't have much of a negative at all at this point, but to say those other three don't when saying Ridley, Rool, and Mac do is a bit silly. They all have negatives to their name. You're also putting the more popular ones below the others???

WHATEVER. It's not like you're saying they're bad choices or anything.

Exactly. Nothing wrong with them. I'm just arguing the semantics of who constitutes a "shoe in" in my opinion.

I would say that even Palutena, Takamaru,and Shulk also are not shoe-ins. In actuality with Smash 4 there are none. Palutena could be passed over due to Sakurai humbleness, Takamaru could be passed over for another retro revival character, and Shulk is more niche as far as an active "series" than any other character that ever got into Smash Bros.

I do think Ridley, K. Rool, Little Mac, Palutena, and Takamaru are all very likely, and I would be surprised if they did not get in, however, for Smash 4 there are no shoe-ins. Even for Mewtwo we could somehow end up with dessert pastry form Mewtwo (its still Mewtwo, but still).

Shulk I can give you, but Palutena and Takamaru -- as much as I don't like him -- are definitely separate. Sakurai's humility with the Kirby series has no bearing on his work with Kid Icarus: Uprising, and Takamaru being passed over for another retro revival character insinuates Sakurai is going to go out of his way to purposely pick an "old school" character because he/she is antiquated. Only the Ice Climbers were selected because they were "retro", Pit was already a popular request that conformed with Sakurai's love of Star Wars (you'll have to find the GDC article for that one).

That's how I reckon it anyways.

I get that you're probably trying to inspire caution, but it's not really necessary. No one rational thinks a character is 100% guaranteed.

The only negative K. Rool has going for him is the possibility of Sakurai overlooking him. Relevancy is not a factor unless you consider characters like Takamaru, that Sakurai did set parameters for.

Little Mac's only negative is a lack of appeal to the Japanese fanbase, but his popularity over here is nuts. We mattered for Ike and Sonic in Brawl, and we matter now.

As for Ridley, same argument. The only difference is Sakurai may decide he couldn't work with him after all.

Eh, those aren't the only things those characters have going against them, but for the sake of this not turning into something longer I'm not going to go into detail.

Do they, though? Why are the negatives that (I assume) are being held against those three more real than those that I can say exist against the other four? We have no history of size or "relevance" keeping characters from a Smash game, for example, but Sakurai specifically said he kept his own creation (Meta Knight) out of Melee because of wanting to put other characters before his own (and considering he designed modern Palutena and the new game that made her a possibility for Smash in the first place, saying he has free reign with the franchise because he didn't invent it is a bit of a cop-out).

The first part can be summed up in the word opinion, the second part (Meta-Knight and King DDD's absence) requires context. Considering I'm feeling lazy and uninspired to go into any real depth at this time, I'm going to leave it alone, or let somebody else take a stab at answering the question. If they even have a clue.

@who ever asked about whom was considered a shoe in for Brawl:

The characters I considered to be shoe ins at the time were Meta-Knight, Diddy Kong, Capt. Olimar and Wario. Two of those came by way of the very first trailer.

 

[The Black mage]

??????????

 

[Banjodorf]

Eh, those aren't the only things those characters have going against them, but for the sake of this not turning into something longer I'm not going to go into detail.

PM me the reasons if you're so sure of them. In the end I'm sure it will come down to opinion rather than true negatives. No one can read Sakurai's mind, only follow patterns. However, "I could say why, but I'm not going to" isn't exactly a good way to end a discussion.

 

[Starphoenix]

However, "I could say why, but I'm not going to" isn't exactly a good way to end a discussion.

Exactly.

 

[Banjodorf]

Exactly.

I'm not really sure I follow you, and checking the above post it seems we agreed on "shoe-in" newcomers in Brawl anyway. I don't really believe in shoe-ins, but I do have a clear idea of most likely. I'd really like to hear whatever other reasons you've got to doubt the inclusion of K. Rool, Ridley and the others, because I see reasons, but nothing bigger than "Olimar is too small and Pikmin isn't important enough" that were thrown around pre-Brawl.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Well whatever minor nitpick is thrown out there is not going to be the thing that determines what goes on. In the end all we can do is speculate, but let's just say that people that nitpick problems are just wasting their time.

 

[Deleted member]

Pit was already a popular request that conformed with Sakurai's love of Star Wars (you'll have to find the GDC article for that one).

Alright, I remember Sakurai mentioning that Pit's dual-blades were inspired by Darth Maul in the Nintendo Power interview, but this sounds like you're saying that Pit was added because Sakurai likes Star Wars (if that's not what you're saying, correct me please).

 

[Oasis_S]

Nobody hinges with bated breath on my posts.

Ehehe... Oh Star... I wouldn't say that~ *gigglekickdust*

 

[FlareHabanero]

Pit being added because of Star Wars is kind of an odd statement. I mean, how exactly young angel in a crack version of Greek mythology correlates to an sci-fi epic with glowing laser swords and spaceships is beyond me.

I mean, the two weren't exactly similar until Kid Icarus: Uprising.

 

[Deleted member]

I almost missed an exciting discussion (darn you work).

In regards to shoe-ins, I consider shoe-ins as someone with absolutely nothing going against it and everything going for it. When it comes to shoe-ins, the only one I can think of is Mewtwo.

Mewtwo has everything that other potential additions wish they had; massive popularity (likely most wanted internationally), important to it's respective franchise, easily fulfills Sakurai's four company, planned for all three Smash games, and the interest of both Sakurai and the Pokémon Company. No doubt will both Sakurai and the Pokémon Company will want Mewtwo in Smash, so this addition is a no brainer.

Anyone else that isn't a veteran (and I would even say Ike, Sonic and Snake are at risks of being cut, although I do lean towards them staying) could miss out one way or another. Whenever that is lack of popularity (Toad), importance (Geno), uniqueness (Chrom), potential issues with game play (Little Mac), becoming a victim of priority (Roy in Brawl), or messy licensing issues (any third-party), we can't really say that there are any other shoe-ins. There are highly likely additions, but aside from Mewtwo, arguing a shoe-in position can't be done.

But as for characters I strongly believe will be in, I also feel as King K. Rool, Takamaru, Palutena, Shulk, Little Mac and Ridley are highly likely if not almost (key word, almost) guaranteed to be in. I also feel as Mega Man has a really good chance to be in if we get a new third-party (since he stands out from the rest of the potential additions), but third-party status keeps him from being an highly likely addition.

So updating my tier system for likelihood on candidates I find realistic:
S Tier (Shoe-in): Mewtwo

A Tier (Confident, but not guarantee): King K. Rool, Takamaru, Palutena, Shulk, Little Mac, and Ridley

B Tier (Good odds, but not safe bets): Mega Man, Roy, Isaac, Dixie Kong, and Mach Rider

C Tier (Less likely, but still plausible characters): Samurai Goroh, Chrom, Toad, Bowser Jr., Saki Amamiya, Krystal, Ghirahim, and Professor Layton

 

[Croph]

Alright, I remember Sakurai mentioning that Pit's dual-blades were inspired by Darth Maul in the Nintendo Power interview, but this sounds like you're saying that Pit was added because Sakurai likes Star Wars (if that's not what you're saying, correct me please).

Whaaaat? I didn't know that. That's actually pretty cool...I mean I play Pit just as much as Lucas and I always thought he was cool. But damn, now Pit just gained a level in badass.

 

[bobadz]

I'm gonna make a list of characters who could get cut by series.

Mario and sub series: no one is likely to get cut.
Zelda: No one is likely to be cut.
Pokemon: Only Lucario is in slight danger here.
Metroid: no one is likely to be cut.
Fire Emblem: Ike is in slight danger here.
Mother: not likely, but possible.
Star Fox: no one is likely to be cut.
3rd parties: the most likely to be cut
Everyone else is not likely to be cut.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm gonna make a list of characters who could get cut by series.

Mario and sub series: no one is likely to get cut.
Zelda: No one is likely to be cut.
Pokemon: Only Lucario is in slight danger here.
Metroid: no one is likely to be cut.
Fire Emblem: Ike is in slight danger here.
Mother: not likely, but possible.
Star Fox: no one is likely to be cut.
3rd parties: the most likely to be cut
Everyone else is not likely to be cut.

I'll have to agree here, except for Mother and Lucario (but I understand why). Ness would have been cut back in Brawl if Sakurai didn't see him as worthy and even if I don't care for Lucas, there really isn't any reason to take him off either.

 

[bobadz]

I know several people who think there wasted slot snow that Mthe Mother series is over. But, I think they should stay because of historical significance.

 

[Shorts]

I think Lucario because reasoning for inclusion is unknown, and Mewtwo being cut due to time is pretty much the exact situation Lucario is in atm.

Out of all the Nintendo characters, Lucario being cut just makes the most sense, IMO.

 

[bobadz]

Wasn't Lucario more or less the face of gen 4?

 

[Deleted member]

Wasn't Lucario more or less the face of gen 4?

Lucario was added to the roster lineup before 4th Gen came out. Which means being the face of the Generation didn't happen until after.

 

[Shorts]

Wasn't Lucario more or less the face of gen 4?

More or less.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I mean I play Pit just as much as Lucas and I always thought he was cool.

I know this is going to sound "stereotypical" or whatever, but I'm not surprised you like Pit considering how similar Pit and Roy are in appearance. I'm not ****ting ether, it's like some sort of conspiracy theory or something.

I mean look.

 

[bobadz]

I know this is going to sound "stereotypical" or whatever, but I'm not surprised you like Pit considering how similar Pit and Roy are in appearance. I'm not ****ting ether, it's like some sort of conspiracy theory or something.

I mean look.

View attachment 302

Eeh, I kinda see it.

 

[---]

Wasn't Lucario more or less the face of gen 4?

Probably, thankfully there's much more to Lucario than just that.

As a side note, I find it funny that only Gen 1 and 4 have agreed upon faces. Certainly says a lot about a character if they're able to stand out in front of 100+ characters and still be memorable to this day.

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't Pichu the definite face of Gen 2, though?

I mean, look at all the Pichu-related events that happened around HG/SS time with the Pikachu-colored Pichu, the Spiky-Eared Pichu (which played a role in Arceus' movie, even), and the Ukelele Pichu from that Ranger game.

 

[bobadz]

With Gen1 you have four characters that are rembered by non fans.

Pikachu ( the face)
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
And charizard

Gen2's face was Pichu.

Gen3's face was probably Rayquaza

Gen4 had lucario

And gen5 had Zoroark.

 

[Banjodorf]

With Gen1 you have four characters that are rembered by non fans.

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
And charizard

That's honestly a pretty true statement. After that though, you sort of have to start catering the the actual Pokemon fans with reps. All of the "Genwunners" are typically non-fans, anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

Meowth is not remembered?

 

[FlareHabanero]

I believe the reason why Pichu got an abnormal amount of publicity is due to being Masuda's favorite Pokemon. I mean if you really liked something in particular, it wouldn't be surprising if you tried to push it ether.

Something similar is kind of going on with his other favorite, Victini.

 

[bobadz]

Meowth is not remembered?

Well, he's a runner up.

 

[Banjodorf]

Meowth is not remembered?

I think he's definitely remembered, but I think the afformentioned four, particularly Pika, Zard and Mewtwo are the household names. Everybody will remember the Mewtwo movie from their childhood, Pikachu is the face of Pokemon and Charizard is I believe still the most popular in the world.

 

[---]

Gen2's face was Pichu.

Gen3's face was probably Rayquaza

Gen4 had lucario

And gen5 had Zoroark.

Pichu arguably, but some of that comes from Pikachu, you also have stuff like Togepi, Ho-Oh, and Lugia. Would say Pichu myself, but there's some stiff competition so I didn't think it'd be a good idea to be concrete on that Gen.

Gen 3 really has no one.

Gen 4 also had Dialga/Palkia, but they're both beneath Lucario in the long run of things.

Gen 5 it's too early to say, Reshiram/Zekrom, even Zorua arguably, have had larger impacts/roles than Zoroark.

Meowth is not remembered?

Was always kinda lame IMO. Never really mattered outside the anime.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I could argue that Victini is the mascot of Gen V due to it's "V" motif.