Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Deleted member]

Mewtwo, Zoroark, and Lucario are good characters that have good reasons to be in. The franchise can definitely justify eight Pokemon characters.

 

[FlareHabanero]

None of the franchises can justify 8 characters whether you like it or not.

Even Sakurai stated himself that he doesn't want too much of a certain franchise, with Pokemon and Super Mario Bros. being the prime examples.

 

[SmashShadow]

@Vintage Creep

That looks fun to play as but I have some concerns. How is Lucario going to have the same moveset as Mewtwo when he's not a psychic type and can't do half the moves Mewtwo did in Melee. I also don't see why certain individual characters are grouped with the other alternated when they aren't that character. Characters like Roy, Shadow and Lucas if made clone status would strip them of a lot of important qualities. Roy would lose his Fire, Shadow would lose his chaos powers and Lucas would lose his K.O. potential.

Also, for alts of Meta Knight and Dedede you should add Masked Dedede and Butterfly Knight Costume

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Also, for alts of Meta Knight and Dedede you should add Masked Dedede and Butterfly Knight Costume

OH GOD YES. Especially on Butterfly MK. I don't care what anyone says, he still looks badass.

 

[BKupa666]

Also before anyone asks, yes, I am aware that Pokemon is a huge series. No, Zoroark, Lucario, and Mewtwo cannot be all in at the same time. No, if you want them all you'll have to scrap Red (face it, Jigglypuff is coming back). Yes, you'll possibly lose out of your precious Charizard if you want Mewtwo. No, Mewtwo will still suck but you'll eat it up anyway.

Way to say this more succinctly than I ever could.

Most people who include 8 Pokemon characters on their roster keep the next highest series (Mario and/or Zelda) with 5 or 6 characters, a whole 2 characters below a series that is not inherently -that- much more "deserving" of content.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Most people who include 8 Pokemon characters on their roster keep the next highest series (Mario and/or Zelda) with 5 or 6 characters, a whole 2 characters below a series that is not inherently -that- much more "deserving" of content.

Considering that Pokemon is one of Nintendo's most consistently successful franchises, and possibly their most succesful multimedia franchise(I can't find numbers to support this, but I have a feeling that it's true), I can see that yes, Pokemon does deserve a lot of content. That said, I think 8 characters is a bit much.

 

[SmashShadow]

Yeah, personally I don't see us getting 8 until Smash 5 at the earliest.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I will agree with those saying that eight Pokemon characters is too much. The next highest series (Mario or Zelda) will only have five (chances of either getting six are pretty low). That's a difference of three characters. The highest we've ever seen is a difference of two. In Brawl, Pokemon had six and Mario had four, but Zelda was in the middle with five to kind of even balance it out a bit. With eight Pokemon characters, there would be a difference of three between Pokemon and BOTH Mario AND Zelda. I just don't see that happening.

And Sakurai HAS stated that he is against adding too many characters from a certain series, which is probably why characters like Wolf, Zero Suit Samus, Ike, and others were priority over Mewtwo in Brawl. I'm betting that even if Sakurai intends for there to be eight Pokemon, one gets scrapped before development finishes.

 

[---]

Meh, I'm probably in the minority here, but whatever, they're all popular and justifiable characters, no big deal here and there's plenty of room on the roster. Over-representation is overrated, it died a long time ago and is misinterpreted anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

The Marioverse has 8 characters in Brawl, and people are expecting more (get over the different icon bs).

Aside from that, the "main" Mario series, Pokemon, and Zelda have never been completely equal.

64-
Mario: 2; Mario and Luigi
(4 if Yoshi and DK are listed)

Pokemon: 2; Pikachu and Jigglypuff

Zelda: 1; Link


Melee-
Mario: 5; Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Dr. Mario
(7 if Yoshi and DK are listed)

Pokemon: 4; Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Pichu

Zelda: 5; Link, Zelda, Sheik (yes, they count seperately), Ganondorf, Young Link



Brawl-
Mario: 4; Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser
(8 if Yoshi, DK, Diddy, and Wario are listed)

Pokemon: 6; Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard (yes, they all count seperately), Lucario

Zelda: 5; Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Toon Link

They haven't been consistant in number; don't act as though it's a foreign concept.

Also, bear in mind that while Pokemon (and Mario) have plenty of worthwhile characters to add, the Zelda series honestly does not. The only one left is a very questionable character who doesn't seem all that likely, and that's Tingle. The rest are either one-shots with little importance to the series like Midna or Ghirahim (though he actually has some importance), somewhat recurring characters with little importance like Impa or Vaati, or are alternate versions of existing characters like Toon Zelda.
In other words, stop looking at characters just to tack on to add the number, they have to be WORTHWHILE.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Exactly. Mewtwo is a very important and popular Pokemon within the Pokemon franchise. Lucario was heavily requested pre-Brawl and still maintains popularity. Zoroark is a hit or miss. However, it is a popular and widely recognized newer Pokemon. I can see it being replaced by a 6th Gen rep or not included at all. Funny because I'm not actually a Pokemon fan. I played Red and Blue religiously when it first came out, toyed around with Ruby and Saphire, and picked up Black and White when it came out in Japan. I added those characters because of what they can bring into Smash.

But yeah, 8 Pokemon does seem a lot :/

 

[---]

It's a lot but it's not entirely bad to have on a roster. It'll stand out like Star Fox has in the past, but hey at least it won't be all semi-clones and are characters who are vocally popular. Also some of what Golden said.

If I didn't think Krystal was such a bad bet, I'd probably have 7 Pokemon on my own roster too. lol

 

[SmashShadow]

In terms of Smash, you can count Yoshi and Wario as co Mario reps but I don't quite see it that way with DK. Unlike the other two who are unlikely to see another rep from their individual series, Donkey Kong still has 2 characters with a lot of popularity and is the only one of the three to actually have at this point a 2nd rep already in smash.

Of the 3 series i just mentioned Wario and Donkey Kong are the most independent from the Mario series with their games including very little of if no Mario cast members at all. This is different for Yoshi as the majority of his games still revolve around the Mario cast. Of the remaining 2, Wario isn't really likely to get another rep anytime soon while DK already has two and is expected to get more.

So basically what i'm saying is that for all intensive purposes, Wario and Yoshi can be counted as Mario reps because they most likely won't get any reps from their own series while DK is in a different boat because his individual series is getting representation.

 

[3Bismyname]

yeah DK is pretty much his own character from his own series. sure he still gets featured in a lot of Mario titles but he's really the mascot to his own franchise. Likewise Diddy is really part of DK's world not really Mario's. but i do still consider Wario and Yoshi to be more Mario characters than their own at this point. maybe in the future they'll break off and be widely excepted as their own franchises but idk.

 

[BKupa666]

With Diddy and likely K. Rool playable, I think it's safe to say DK is its own entity. What's the proof it was ever considered a part of Mario, aside from...that one Melee event match? That DK wouldn't have even been a part of if Diddy had been in Melee?

Even comparatively to other series, 8 representatives for a single series is just absurd. Sakurai has gone out of his way to say Mario and Pokemon will not be given a crapton of characters. Either we're getting no new additions whatsoever, or someone is getting cut.

 

[---]

Sakurai has gone out of his way to say Mario and Pokemon will not be given a crapton of characters.

Well yeah that's a given given the amount of characters in each series. But looking at a series like Star Fox (who I'm sorry to keep using as an example), Pokemon in 64 (and arguably Melee), they were all justifiable to be playable.

Throw in the fact that many series are grossly under-represented (Kirby until Brawl, DK, Metroid, F-Zero, and arguably Fire Emblem), Sakurai saying that is just more support for the high bar theory (or in more literal terms, no minor characters) which clearly hasn't been defined for the Pokemon series unlike Mario and Zelda due to the always changing cast, newer characters who haven't been able to match older ones, and the unwillingness from most everyone to cut.

 

[Deleted member]

And how do you know DK would not have been in that Match if Diddy was in Melee?
How do you know that Diddy wouldn't simply have been included in the Match along with him for convenience?
Would the Roster layout be different as well to seperate DK from the rest of the Mario cast? (And before you mention Captain Falcon, that's Ganondorf's fault.)

 

[SmashShadow]

I wouldn't say that they'd separate the two so much as make a distinction. DK would mostly likely stay where he was because of his close ties with the Mario franchise but Diddy would be next to him. Captain falcon would probably be moved next to Roy or Ganon would move next to Roy with C. Falcon moved to where Ganon is.

 

[Deleted member]

That makes no sense.

 

[SmashShadow]

...how so?

 

[3Bismyname]

if any series would get "over represented" it would be Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda. they are the three of most profitable and recognized Nintendo franchises. Problem with the Zelda series is that all the big players are already in SSB so any one else you add is really secondary character like Tingle or Skull Kid or just one shots like Ghirahim or Midna. Mario already has all its major players in besides Toad and Bowser Jr. who are two characters a lot of people expect to see come in SSB4, and when it comes to Pokemon they have room to expand because the series itself doesn't have a set group of important characters (except the Pokemon Trainer i guess). i knew a long time ago that Pokemon and Mario would see a lot of representation in any sequels but you can't really find that surprising.

 

[Deleted member]

Completely breaks the clone border, and causes an uneven flow towards the bottom.

Let me make a visual example.
EDIT:

@3B: Toad is as "secondary" as Tingle. Perhaps even less considering Tingle gets his own spin-offs.

 

[SmashShadow]

O_o I said falcon would go above young link. I don't think him being a clone necessarily means he needs to be next to Ganondorf because the 2 aren't from the same series. Even in brawl they weren't next to each other.

I totally see how you misinterpreted that now
When I said moved to where Ganon was i meant his old spot on the roster.

 

[3Bismyname]

i disagree on the Toad thing but whatever, I'm not in the mood to start an argument over a character i don't really wanna see in SSB

 

[Deleted member]

While it may be true in Brawl, bear in mind that in Melee, clones are right next to each other.

For example, if Dr. Mario was in Brawl, he'd very likely be under Bowser instead of beside Mario like in Melee. And Roy would be below Ike instead of Marth, if Jigglypuff is an indication on where the "last call veterans" go. (at which Mewtwo would be under Jigglypuff as well)

 

[SmashShadow]

While it may be true in Brawl, bear in mind that in Melee, clones are right next to each other.

For example, if Dr. Mario was in Brawl, he'd very likely be under Bowser instead of beside Mario like in Melee. And Roy would be below Ike instead of Marth, if Jigglypuff is an indication on where the "last call veterans" go. (at which Mewtwo would be under Jigglypuff as well)

There was no set rule that it had to do that but even so, you could fix that whole problem by shifting Pichu's row over 1 to the left and taking the falcon twins and putting them beside Roy.

 

[Deleted member]

None of the franchises can justify 8 characters whether you like it or not.

Even Sakurai stated himself that he doesn't want too much of a certain franchise, with Pokemon and Super Mario Bros. being the prime examples.

I think people are misinterpreting what Sakurai meant in regards to over representation. He's trying to avoid adding minor characters that don't need to be anywhere near Smash territory, not that he'll stop adding more Mario or Pokemon characters.

 

[Vintage Creep]

@Vintage Creep

That looks fun to play as but I have some concerns. How is Lucario going to have the same moveset as Mewtwo when he's not a psychic type and can't do half the moves Mewtwo did in Melee. I also don't see why certain individual characters are grouped with the other alternated when they aren't that character. Characters like Roy, Shadow and Lucas if made clone status would strip them of a lot of important qualities. Roy would lose his Fire, Shadow would lose his chaos powers and Lucas would lose his K.O. potential.

Also, for alts of Meta Knight and Dedede you should add Masked Dedede and Butterfly Knight Costume

Actually I hate alternate costumes which are other characters. Not only different characters moveset-wise, but other characters altogether. For example Diddy/Dixie. The fact is that I hate another thing: the elimination of some characters (I really hope that Smash 4 has ALL the previous rosters of the game plus some newcomer). So I had to come to terms with this fact. A roster of 70+ slots it's plain impossible. So I tried to incorporate some clone characters as alternate costumes, to reduce slots and at the same time mantain all of them.

Some of them are actually plausible (ex Link with Young and Toon version), but others are indeed difficult. That's why I think that most of the "clone" characters in Brawl will be scrapped off. Especially if the rumor that the roster will be around the same amount as Brawl is true.

 

[Deleted member]

There was no set rule that it had to do that but even so, you could fix that whole problem by shifting Pichu's row over 1 to the left and taking the falcon twins and putting them beside Roy.

There's no "set rule" for a lot of things, however, layout is done deliberately.

64: Starting characters are in order of series debut, while unlockable characters are on the sides with the two that are part of another character's series are next to that character.

Melee: Clones are on the very ends with CSS boxes that are pushed farther back into the screen (giving the appearance of being smaller) while next to their original counterparts.

Brawl: Columns that go in this pattern:
Main Mario
Mario Spin-Offs
Zelda
NES Stars
Kirby & Pikmin (can't really draw a comparison other than somewhat cutesy with nightmarish properties)
Pilots
Pokemon
RPG Heroes (and popular in Japan)
Misc. (G&W and the 3rd Parties)

 

[Deleted member]

@Vintage Creep: I don't think you have to worry about a similar sized roster to Brawl. When Sakurai was referring to "we've probably already reached the limit", he was most likely referring to SSB4's roster as the limit.

There is no reason why this roster should be less than 44 characters (transformation included). Heck, I'd be surprised if it was less than 48.

 

[Vintage Creep]

@Vintage Creep: I don't think you have to worry about a similar sized roster to Brawl. When Sakurai was referring to "we've probably already reached the limit", he was most likely referring to SSB4's roster as the limit.

There is no reason why this roster should be less than 44 characters (transformation included). Heck, I'd be surprised if it was less than 48.

Hope you're right, because I see Smash Bros. as the PERFECT "more of the same" game. Hell I would be completely satisfied if Smash 4 is exactly like Brawl only with more characters... But I don't know, after Playstation All-Stars I'm just keeping my expectations low, you can never know...

 

[aba1]

yeah DK is pretty much his own character from his own series. sure he still gets featured in a lot of Mario titles but he's really the mascot to his own franchise. Likewise Diddy is really part of DK's world not really Mario's. but i do still consider Wario and Yoshi to be more Mario characters than their own at this point. maybe in the future they'll break off and be widely excepted as their own franchises but idk.

I agree and when you really think about it DK has only really been in one Mario title. Yes he appears in mario kart and sports games but he is never involved in any main series mario games with the single exception of both of their origins.

 

[jigglover]

Spin off and main series is a fan term. A mario game is a mario game is a mario game.

 

[3Bismyname]

so to you Donkey Kong Country is still a Mario game. cause that is still a spin off but has like 0 relation to Mario

 

[BKupa666]

No, we're discussing a different quote here. In Nintendo Power, Sakurai specifically mentioned Mario and Pokemon by name, not in reference to avoiding minor characters, but in regard to balancing series representation.

I say DK would likely not be counted as a Mario character in Melee if Diddy were playable because, um, Diddy hadn't been in a single Mario game at that point. To lump him in with the other Mario characters and Yoshi would be absolutely awkward and unprecedented.

 

[Deleted member]

Or, alternatively, Diddy could just have been an unlockable character and be lumped with them like Luigi while DK remains where he is, as we don't know if Diddy would have been an unlockable at that point or not.
(And even if Diddy wasn't an unlockable character, it would look even more awkward and unprecedented to have DK lumped with Ness, Kirby, Pikachu, and the Ice Climbers just for the sake of keeping Diddy away from Mario and co.)

 

[BKupa666]

Okay, fair enough with the Melee unlockables...hadn't thought of that. In Brawl, however, there's little to no proof that DK was ever considered a part of the Mario series. Wario arguably was, since he was listed as a Mario character in Melee's poll (he was like two points behind Peach in terms of popularity, actually), but Diddy was not, and nothing in the game indicates that he was selected on this basis.

 

[Deleted member]

Come to think of it....do you think Diddy WOULD have been an unlockable in Melee?
We know he was a starter in Brawl, but still....I wonder if he would have been unlockable if he was in Melee....

 

[SmashShadow]

If we're counting the original Donkey Kong game seeing as it is apart of the Donkey Kong series and was the simultaneous debut of both Mario and DK, is DK even a spin-off? You'd think his series would be considered separate because it wasn't really Mario's game.

 

[Reyson]

If we're counting the original Donkey Kong game seeing as it is apart of the Donkey Kong series and was the simultaneous debut of both Mario and DK, is DK even a spin-off? You'd think his series would be considered separate because it wasn't really Mario's game.

Technicly, the Donkey Kong(DK Jr.) we know wasn't even in the main game with Mario because the original Donkey Kong was retconned to be Cranky Kong(DK Sr.). The game that first featured the DK we know was "Donkey Kong Jr."

Donkey Kong has had plenty of games in his own universe that split him apart from the Mario franchise. Hell, there have been spin-offs of DK spin-offs. Diddy Kong has had his own games and Banjo & Conker originated from Diddy Kong Racing to later have their own games.
Wario and Yoshi are a bit iffy, they have their own spin-offs that stand apart from Mario, but show up now and again in the main Mario games.