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Like, gimme a newcomer you guys all think is likely / has potential for quality in their gameplay.
Hey JOE, I got an idea for a character, but not quite under a Smash Bros game, rather a Smash Bros-like, HP based Arcade fighter. It is still Stock-based combat, and the fights continue from stock to stock, it utilizes a Smash-like weight engine, but it is HP based an also allows for string and traditional combos, it has a competitive mindset at its very core.

The idea for the character is basically a transforming character between something like Samus and Zsuit Samus where the character Starts fully armored at the start, but has limited energy/ammo for some parts and can progressively drop her equipment as the battle goes on thereby becoming lighter and more agile, but also losing combat and mobility options such as flight. A good example of the idea would be MagnaGarurumon from Digimon Frontier. Likewise, all of the armor can dropped to go straight to the "bare" version with a command input.

However, I have a hard time balancing the idea of this transformation. I need to make the armored version clearly the superior version to give incentive to keep that version during the fight, but at the same time I wanna make sure the bare version has plenty of interesting combat options. I wanna have contrasting combat options where the Armored version is more of a bulky Zoner with lots of aerial prowess, and very diverse weaponry, and the Bare version more of a Rushdown character with a couple mid-range pokes and quick ground moves like Cammy (SF). They idea is to eventually force the player to transition down to the Bare version and learn to manage resources effectively. However, finding the balance is tough as I feel the character can very easily be OP under ANY fighting mechanics, that's where most of my troubles come from. Oh, also I should mention, you can't go UP, and re-equip the armor, only down.

I like the concept a lot, but I feel this idea might only be good on paper. What do you think you could do with this idea? I have some sketches of her, I'll post them here, maybe you'll find some inspiration with her.



Just some references, a lot of her combat options and design are inspired by the Metroid Canon, and Xenosaga's KOS-MOS. Here's a video of what KOS-MOS can do to give you an idea:

I'll PM you some more ideas as I work on it, for the time being just think of a SmashXBlazblue type game, so mechanics from both have to be considered, don't worry about the moveset, I just wanna hear some ideas you might come up with as to how this might work.

Another approach you could take would be a redesign of Samus/ZSuit Samus, how would you go about it?
 

ChronoBound

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To be completely honest, Brawl's roster + King K.Rool, Mewtwo, Ridley, Isaac and Roy would satisfy me already more than enough.
I feel the exactly the same way, though I would also throw in Mega Man, and maybe Palutena and Takamaru as the obligatory female and retro newcomers.

There frankly is very few characters this time that have been highly requested since much of the pre-Smash 4 announcement period. Its pretty much only been Ridley, Mega Man, Mewtwo, Roy, K. Rool, Little Mac, and Isaac. And of those seven, three of them were only highly requested in the West (Ridley, Little Mac, and Isaac).

There being so few popularly requested characters this time, I don't see the whining about having to include "popular" characters because you don't even need to use up two hands to count all the characters there is even a strong demand for this time.

Secondly, the whole spiel about "moveset potential" is utter and total trash. Any character with enough creative can be made into a fascinating and unique addition. Heck, I was even able to make Dr. Mario into a completely unique character, and many people loved how he was re-imagined. So the whole, "waaah these popular characters won't be as unique as the characters I am imagining in my head" is total crap. What you are imagining as a "fighter from heaven", Sakurai and many others could see as totally uninteresting and not meritable enough to warrant placement in Smash Bros.

Lastly, I don't want characters in because they "think of the moveset potential duuuuude", I want them because I LOVE the characters. I love their source material and had very fun times playing the games they are from. If Mewtwo ends up returning and being a garbage tier character, will I complain? NO! I will be too ecstatic that the ruthless legendary psychic kitty of doom has finally made his triumphant return.

The same goes for Ridley. Ridley could end up being worse than Pichu, and I still would not shed two measly tears or any internet baawwwings. You know why? Because I have been a fan of Ridley before many of the people posting on this site were even born! I love Ridley. He is my favorite video game villain ever. I don't care if he ends up trash, I just want to play as him because he is one of my favorite video game characters ever, and Smash Bros. above all else, is a mascot fighting game with strong party tendencies.

All these people wanting for Smash Bros. to become just another fighter have loads of other fighting series to choose from for their competitive needs. I (and probably a majority of the people who play Smash Bros.) only have one series to choose from for my Nintendo character and fanservice needs, and that is Smash Bros.
 
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Geez Manly, it's just Samus. No need to get your panties in a bunch.
No, I need it as a study, for what I just posted in the last page. I need to look at it and use it as a reference for the character I drew. Just to see how the armor comes off, and how to draw something similar.

The same goes for Ridley. Ridley could end up being worse than Pichu, and I still would not shed two measly tears or any internet baawwwings.
Jesus, if Ridley ends up being **** I will be so... SO disappointed. The potential in his character is boner inducing. Just looking at his Boss Concept should give a number of ideas of how awesome and unique Ridley could be, ESPECIALLY under the Smash Bros. mechanics of Knock Out based 'Death.'

You may point and say people can go to other fighters to enjoy competitive games, but shooing the competitive audience is awfully selfish. You forget that Smash is a one-of-a-kind fighter in mechanics as well, therefore, the fanbase from that point of view is just as justified as people who like it only for the characters. You can't just GO to another game and expect the same experience. Other fighters are different. Smash is even more drastic a comparison than BlazBlue is to MvC for example. People wanting a balanced and competitive fighter is fair and justified, and their opinions hold just as much merit as those who wanna see Roy because he's their favorite Smash character. You can't just tell them to **** off and find another game that suit their tastes more aptly because Smash Bros IS above all a fighting game. A mascot fighter, yes, but still a fighter.
 

FlareHabanero

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To be honest, Super Smash Bros. is like the only fighting game series I don't suck at. Generally speaking it's because movement feels a lot more natural. So if I want Super Smash Bros. to be a balanced game with great gameplay, I'll damn well desire it. When Brawl went for quantity over quality, I felt kind of cheated in that regard. It felt like a step back from Melee in a lot of ways.
 

ChronoBound

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Reading comprehension. I never said Smash Bros. could not have competitive aspects, I just said that its awfully selfish of the competitive players to think Sakurai should tool the game specifically to them (or that their needs should have the largest focus). Sakurai has already said he is aiming for balance this time. Sure the Smash 4 likely won't be as deep as Melee, but we probably will end up with a more balanced roster than any other Smash Bros. game, and I am sure even the competitive crowd would appreciate that.

Reading all these posts saying Mewtwo should not be brought back because he is not "interesting" (which is totally and completely subjective) just makes my blood boil, because these people forget that Mewtwo is pretty much a Nintendo icon, and Smash Bros., first and foremost (what even got me and many others interested in Smash Bros. in the first place), is a clash of all of Nintendo's icons.
 

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If Brawl would have been THE perfect game, we wouldn't have got awesome mods like Project M. :awesome:
 

FlareHabanero

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What is considered an icon is really subjective and should really not be taken into deep consideration. I mean according to Super Smash Bros., Popo and Nana are Nintendo superstars from the hit Ice Climber franchise of mega hit titles.
 

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If Brawl would have been THE perfect game, we wouldn't have got awesome mods like Project M. :awesome:
No people will always have differing tastes. We would have gotten it anyways.
 

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Look, the key is not to cater to any audience -- competitive or not. Make the game open ended enough where families can enjoy the game the way they always have, and the competitive crowd has a game allowing a thriving community. Again, I'm not sure why these have to be mutually exclusive to some people. You can have both.

What is considered an icon is really subjective and should really not be taken into deep consideration.
Considering I know twenty-eight year old dudes who have nothing to do with Nintendo, yet still remember Mewtwo; I don't think he's off base.
 

ChronoBound

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Look, the key is not to cater to any audience -- competitive or not. Make the game open ended enough where families can enjoy the game the way they always have, and the competitive crowd has a game open ended enough to allow a thriving community. Again, I'm not sure why this has to be mutually exclusive to some people. You can have both.
Yes. I don't see how keeping the characters from Brawl and bringing in the handful of popularly requested characters this time would keep Smash Bros. from being "competitive".
 

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Yes. I don't see how keeping the characters from Brawl and bringing in the handful of popularly requested characters this time would keep Smash Bros. from being "competitive".
It wouldn't. People just complain about anything they can.
 

FlareHabanero

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Yes. I don't see how keeping the characters from Brawl and bringing in the handful of popularly requested characters this time would keep Smash Bros. from being "competitive".
Well for starters, the balance between stages and characters. But also how the game works and whatever mechanic is introduced/removed and how it influences the metagame. It takes time to actually learn the song and dance for these games.

Also let's just clarify that people are absolutely sick of Meta Knight dittos and don't want history repeating itself again.
 

ChronoBound

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What is considered an icon is really subjective and should really not be taken into deep consideration. I mean according to Super Smash Bros., Popo and Nana are Nintendo superstars from the hit Ice Climber franchise of mega hit titles.
Obviously, Smash Bros. brings in some unknowns as well in addition to the well known and popular guys to make things interesting. Sakurai usually strikes the right balance with these things.

That reminds me. I though Mr. Game & Watch was one of the most creative characters in Melee, and I was actually quite happy to see him (since I was a big fan of the Game & Watch Gallery series), however, there were people calling for him to be cut during pre-Brawl merely because he was bottom tier in Melee.

That is the aspect of the competitive Smash Bros. fanbase that I do not like. If a character is "bad" as a competitive fighter they don't deserve to be in the minds of those people.
 

Yomi's Biggest Fan

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Chrono, you and I are alike. I usually love the characters for who they are and how fun their games were.

Uprising was the only 3DS game that was worth keeping due to it's plot and gameplay (Palutena).
The original DK Country trilogy is what introduced me to gaming on the Super Nintendo. (K. Rool).
Metroid became a favorite exploration game of mines because of having a soft spot for sci-fi themes (Ridley).
Nazo no Murasame-jo was actually a challenge unlike the other Famicom/NES games (Takamaru).
Awakening became another favorite Fire Emblem games of mines due to its extensive content (Chrom).
Mega Man is what got me into many of Capcom IPs, especially the original Marvel vs. Capcom series (Mega Man).
Despite not playing the older Fire Emblem games, something about Roy's personality and design made me like him in Melee (Roy).
Pokemon is what interested me in handhed RPGs, and I caught my first legendary after a heated battle in the end (Mewtwo).

I'd like to say more about other characters, but I'm getting a little tired. :/
 

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That reminds me. I though Mr. Game & Watch was one of the most creative characters in Melee, and I was actually quite happy to see him (since I was a big fan of the Game & Watch Gallery series), however, there were people calling for him to be cut during pre-Brawl merely because he was bottom tier in Melee.
And yet tiers are designed for the highest level of competitive play. I doubt how many of those were actually competitive players.
 

Gingerbread Man

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A bit off topic but...
What I think will happen is Sakurai will make his Roster and that's what SSB4 will be. Then those popular characters players wanted will be developed for DLC.
Developing will be easier if your not polling for what the fans want and including the ignored popular character will help the DLC sell.

...There will probably be DLC, right?
 

FlareHabanero

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And yet tiers are designed for the highest level of competitive play. I doubt how many of those were actually competitive players.
Nah, people wanted Mr. Game & Watch gone because he wasn't some sort of wet dream addition wanted.

In a sense, kind of like R.O.B. in Brawl.
 

ChronoBound

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Chrono, you and I are alike. I usually love the characters for who they are and how fun their games were.

Uprising was the only 3DS game that was worth keeping due to it's plot and gameplay (Palutena).
The original DK Country trilogy is what introduced me to gaming on the Super Nintendo. (K. Rool).
Metroid became a favorite exploration game of mines because of having a soft spot for sci-fi themes (Ridley).
Nazo no Murasame-jo was actually a challenge unlike the other Famicom/NES games (Takamaru).
Awakening became another favorite Fire Emblem games of mines due to its extensive content (Chrom).
Mega Man is what got me into many of Capcom IPs, especially the original Marvel vs. Capcom series (Mega Man).
Despite not playing the older Fire Emblem games, something about Roy's personality and design made me like him in Melee (Roy).
Pokemon is what interested me in handhed RPGs, and I caught my first legendary after a heated battle in the end (Mewtwo).

I'd like to say more about other characters, but I'm getting a little tired. :/
Thanks. I have pretty extensive reasons for the characters I personally want in.

As for your reason for liking Roy, that's interesting because Sakurai specifically said he designed Roy in a way for people to like him for his "charm" even if they were unfamiliar with him.
 

FlareHabanero

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As for your reason for liking Roy, that's interesting because Sakurai specifically said he designed Roy in a way for people to like him for his "charm" even if they were unfamiliar with him.
So to make him charming, he included Roy as an inferior clone of Marth and as a promotional ploy for Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade. That's not what I'd call charming...
 

ChronoBound

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So to make him charming, he included Roy as an inferior clone of Marth and as a promotional ploy for Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade. That's not what I'd call charming...
That's totally hilarious that you say that. Because just two posts previously I talked about the shaming language competitive players used against people who liked low-tier and bottom-tier characters, and here you are shaming Roy because he was "low-tier".

Secondly, Sakurai thought Roy could help promote the series as a whole.
 

Gingerbread Man

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So to make him charming, he included Roy as an inferior clone of Marth and as a promotional ploy for Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade. That's not what I'd call charming...
Just character design. Roy looks a lot older in melee than he did in FE. You don't need originality to be charming.
Secondly, Sakurai thought Roy could help promote the series as a whole.
Obviously he was right considering Marth and Roy caused FE to go international.
 

FlareHabanero

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Well to be honest, I cannot think of any other reason as to why Roy is so "charming". Even the fire effects felt very underwhelming, and this is coming from the guy that likes fire motifs. Maybe it's because I always viewed Marth as something a little more interesting due to his more elegant character, which made him stand out more. It's this same feeling I have for Ike and why I don't feel particularly fond of him ether.
 

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Well to be honest, I cannot think of any other reason as to why Roy is so "charming". Even the fire effects felt very underwhelming, and this is coming from the guy that likes fire motifs. Maybe it's because I always viewed Marth as something a little more interesting due to his more elegant character, which made him stand out more. It's this same feeling I have for Ike and why I don't feel particularly fond of him ether.
This describes my feelings toward Ken in the Street Fighter series.

You seem like you don't care for the Fire Emblem series in Super Smash Bros. It's fine, we all have that one series we never really pick characters from. For me, I don't really like nor play as any of the Pokémon in Brawl. The only Pokémon I've ever really used was Mewtwo in Melee, and he was my secondary main apart from Ganondorf.
 

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I partially dislike Ike more due to Wifi, but at the same time I do appreciate something a little more fresh out of Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem as a whole to me doesn't hold sentimental feelings at all, and with so many characters in the franchise, none of them hold water. Except for Marth, since we got to have the fabulous factor on the roster.
 

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Hmmm, I'm bothered that liking characters based on what they could bring as fighters to Smash is considered Shallow. There are plenty of characters I feel that way about, such as Mach Rider and Isaac. I support them like any "true fan" would. Also, characters that people enjoy playing as are more likely to get people to want to learn more about them and their gains. To discount the importance of that aspect of "moveset potential" is even more foolish, though. While other factors of come into play of course, I guarantee you Sakurai looked hard at each character he added and thought about what it is they bring to the roster as a whole.

It is very important the character provides an interesting way of fighting, because no matter how good the gameplay has been, if you don't make characters that make use of it in fresh and varying ways, it won't be as good of an experience. DUNNO IF MANLY AND STAR GOT TO THAT I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION. Star's "two sides of the same coin" sums it up well enough I suppose. Some people do go overboard though. Ignoring everything for the sake of some over-the-top imagined moveset. Definitely possible to get TOO creative.


Oh cool, my 7,777th post wasn't a lame joke or me being Sour.
 

Croph

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As for your reason for liking Roy, that's interesting because Sakurai specifically said he designed Roy in a way for people to like him for his "charm" even if they were unfamiliar with him.
Oh ho ho~ Did I ever get captivated by Roy's charm. Dude, teh phir3, that red flaming hair, his eyes...dat headband. Honestly, Roy has always intrigued me more than Marth. Of course, what's charming for some, may not be for others. What if I told you that I think Bowser has some charm? Yes, I do think he's quite handsome...Don't judge me!

But anyway, I loved Roy him in Melee, no matter how crappy he is, or what my friends said about him. I...I shouldn't get emotionally attached to a character. But I keep saying to myself, "Why did I have to like Roy, Dr. Mario, and Mewtwo the most out of all the Melee cast?" They all got cut...I must be cursed or something...I'm sorry...
 

Gingerbread Man

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Hmmm, I'm bothered that liking characters based on what they could bring as fighters to Smash is considered Shallow. There are plenty of characters I feel that way about, such as Mach Rider and Isaac. I support them like any "true fan" would. Also, characters that people enjoy playing as are more likely to get people to want to learn more about them and their gains. To discount the importance of that aspect of "moveset potential" is even more foolish, though. While other factors of come into play of course, I guarantee you Sakurai looked hard at each character he added and thought about what it is they bring to the roster as a whole.

It is very important the character provides an interesting way of fighting, because no matter how good the gameplay has been, if you don't make characters that make use of it in fresh and varying ways, it won't be as good of an experience. DUNNO IF MANLY AND STAR GOT TO THAT I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION. Star's "two sides of the same coin" sums it up well enough I suppose. Some people do go overboard though. Ignoring everything for the sake of some over-the-top imagined moveset. Definitely possible to get TOO creative.
Your post count is 7,777.
Super good luck, Savor this moment.

But yes I agree. Forcing unique moves doesn't work as well as finding characters who will provide unique moves. All of these factors are relevant. Newcomers need to fit most of the criteria well not just relevance, popularity, or moveset potential.
 

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You know, Bowser is actually one of my favorite characters to use in varies games. If Bowser was more practical, I wouldn't mind using him more in the Super Smash Bros. games. Simply put, being a lard ass doesn't do Bowser justice in a metagame that favors speed.

I do like the light armor concept in Project M and I kind of wish it was officially implemented.
 

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I feel the light armor concept, while nice, doesn't address all his problems. I still think either reducing the clash % range or increasing/decreasing hitboxes/hurtboxes could do wonders for Bowser in the neutral game.
 

Croph

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I actually love playing as Bowser in Melee, but I can't stand how the way he "feels" in Brawl. I'm not sure...does that make sense?
 
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