Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Swamp Sensei]

They're equally important guys.

Balance wouldn't be fun if we only got 50 Marios. And Uniqueness wouldn't be fun if several characters were useless.

 

[peeup]

Likewise, taking away Zelda's transformation wouldn't make her any less unique.

Disagree, Zelda's ability to transform is/should be a huge part of her playstyle. Example, Shiek should be good at racking up damage with combos, then Zelda should be good at finishing people off with Din's Fire to edgeguard, or otherwise big powerful magic enhanced smashes. Or, if one has a better match up against a particular opponent, use that transformation more.

 

[---]

Personally I always found balance to be entirely opinion based, for the most part at least, stuff like Meta Knight and Mewtwo can't really be argued.

They're equally important guys.

Balance wouldn't be fun if we only got 50 Marios. And Uniqueness wouldn't be fun if several characters were useless.

This guy gets it, he just stated two of the character criteria without even realizing it.

 

[FalKoopa]

Disagree, Zelda's ability to transform is/should be a huge part of her playstyle

Zelda's transform ability is hardly a part of her playstyle. There are so few who use Zelda/Sheik duo. Most use either Zelda or Sheik

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Obviously they should give them stamina

 

[peeup]

Personally I always found balance to be entirely opinion based, for the most part at least, stuff like Meta Knight and Mewtwo can't really be argued.

Don't really agree with that. Example: (this is hugely dramatized, but you'll get the idea):

There are 2 characters in a fighting game. They have the exact same moveset, stats, everything. Except one character does twice as much damage per attack. That character is obviously a better character, no matter how you look at it.

If you dont' like that reasoning, check out this article about balance/tiers.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Semicolon/Treatise_on_the_Existence_of_Tiers

Or just read this excerpt, it basically sums it up pretty well.

Spoiler

t is statistically highly improbable (rather, nigh impossible) that a game as complex in variable (meaning, in this case, the myriad of variable abilities including air speed, priority, weight etc.), medium (meaning, in this case and hereby referring to, a character), and construct (meaning, in this case, the metagame, strategies, mindgames, and techs) could possibly be balanced under almost any set of assumptions.
A corollary to this argument involves the unpredictability of the constructs. Since it is impossible for the game creators to predict the ultimate utility of the various constructs, it is impossible to balance them.

PS obviously balance and variety are both very important. But if Smash were to lean on one side, I would far prefer it to be more varied and less balanced than vice verca.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Don't really agree with that. Example: (this is hugely dramatized, but you'll get the idea):

There are 2 characters in a fighting game. They have the exact same moveset, stats, everything. Except one character does twice as much damage per attack. That character is obviously a better character, no matter how you look at it.

If you dont' like that reasoning, check out this article about balance/tiers.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Semicolon/Treatise_on_the_Existence_of_Tiers

Or just read this excerpt, it basically sums it up pretty well.

Spoiler

t is statistically highly improbable (rather, nigh impossible) that a game as complex in variable (meaning, in this case, the myriad of variable abilities including air speed, priority, weight etc.), medium (meaning, in this case and hereby referring to, a character), and construct (meaning, in this case, the metagame, strategies, mindgames, and techs) could possibly be balanced under almost any set of assumptions.
A corollary to this argument involves the unpredictability of the constructs. Since it is impossible for the game creators to predict the ultimate utility of the various constructs, it is impossible to balance them.

PS obviously balance and variety are both very important. But if Smash were to lean on one side, I would far prefer it to be more varied and less balanced than vice verca.

That's why he said "Stuff like Mewtwo and Meta Knight. He's saying while the uber strong and weak characters are obviously stronger or weaker, the ones more in the middle blend closer together and often have non linear strengths and weaknesses against eachother


Or something of the likes

 

[peeup]

That's why he said "Stuff like Mewtwo and Meta Knight. He's saying while the uber strong and weak characters are obviously stronger or weaker,

My bad, misunderstood. Thought he meant you can't argue MK and Mewtwo because its subjective, as in it isn't worth arguing.

#shamed

 

[---]

My bad, misunderstood. Thought he meant you can't argue MK and Mewtwo because its subjective, as in it isn't worth arguing.

#shamed

Ah Psycho beat me to it.

Don't be ashamed, this is complicated stuff to talk about, I myself don't completely get the whole picture and should have probably used better wording in that post.

 

[Moon Monkey]

That is why I will support characters that have unique gimmicks/mechanics/playstyle whatever you may call it. Dixie&Kiddy could potentially be a cool mix between Zelda/Shiek and Ice Climbers.

Like the ICs in a sense that some of their moves would rely on the pressence of the other Kong, and like Zelda/Shiek in the sense that you could switch/tag in&out between the two Kongsto access different moves. I am always happy to see variety and mixtures of different characters added into a game like smash

 

[Oasis_S]

...I don't see how balance and variety could possibly on the same Spectrum.

Unless we're talking like "oh, let's add a character that is COMPLETELY INVULNERABLE. We don't have one of those yet."

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Oasis: Yep...

I know we need balance but on the other hand, it'll be impossible to make everyone absolutely even anyway. At times it just seems to depend on the engine and direction more than the character. I mean, Jiggs and Falcon became quite nerfed if stepping to Brawl's territory. And I think balance can come in after the characters have been established and finished (and also differ from others considerably)

I still say keep the characters unique and incharacter, but keep them still easy to learn and access to so you dig deeper on learning to use 'em better. I found Marth very hard to learn to use properly in Melee because how he seemed to really differ from other players in his KO-ing ability out of the competitive mechanics, so some of the Brawl's changes to make him KO easier were welcome to me.

 

[Diddy Kong]

They do know how to balance characters... They just won't admit it. :/

Well I would talk about Impa, but I'm not exactly the type of guy that spews crap just for the sake of spewing crap. I may be a miserable little prick, but even I have standards to follow.

I would rather talk about Takamaru, but of course nothing interesting comes out of that.

I see someone doesn't like me.

Keep hating.

 

[ChronoBound]

Here is a fake Pokemon scan someone made for Pokemon X/Y:

I shudder to think how elaborate and well-made the fakes for Smash 4 will be.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Solution: Characters can be balanced, but Smash Balls and items help unbalance, and it's fun.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Unbalance is never fun. I like my balance.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Unbalance is never fun. I like my balance.

Then stop being a super-inspector on fighting games.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No. MetaKnight and Ganondorf in Brawl need no Sherlock Holmes kind of analysis to see how broken they are.

 

[BluePikmin11]

No. MetaKnight and Ganondorf in Brawl need no Sherlock Holmes kind of analysis to see how broken they are.

lol Everyone becomes serious about how broken they are, when we should have fun they are unbalanced. Don't go too nerdy about it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Don't try to deny it either. Also:

>Implying I'm a nerd for such a statement.

This has been going on for ages. Not like I made this **** up Sunday afternoon or something. Try again.

 

[Big-Cat]

Solution: Characters can be balanced, but Smash Balls and items help unbalance, and it's fun.

That depends on what you're looking for in a game. I am a reasonably competitive person, meaning I don't get mad if I lost fair and square or I'll be irritated with myself at worst. I like it when I win or lose due to simply being outplayed with their character's skills and/or stage elements if applicable (i.e. Tekken walls or stage or corners). What I don't like is if I win or lose because someone happened to grab the random item that popped out of nowhere.

To me, that takes away the fair and square aspect of playing my opponent. Don't get me wrong, I think items CAN be fun, but if I'm trying to outdo someone or simply trying to get better, I want as few outside interferences as possible.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I play with items with my younger siblings sometimes. Even they think they're cheap.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

The items are one of the things that make Smash Bros games

 

[BluePikmin11]

That depends on what you're looking for in a game. I am a reasonably competitive person, meaning I don't get mad if I lost fair and square or I'll be irritated with myself at worst. I like it when I win or lose due to simply being outplayed with their character's skills and/or stage elements if applicable (i.e. Tekken walls or stage or corners). What I don't like is if I win or lose because someone happened to grab the random item that popped out of nowhere.

To me, that takes away the fair and square aspect of playing my opponent. Don't get me wrong, I think items CAN be fun, but if I'm trying to outdo someone or simply trying to get better, I want as few outside interferences as possible.

*Two Foxes are playing in a match closing up, no time limit and is a 1 stock match at 300% damage*
*Green Shell appears between them*
*Fox uses Reflector and reflects the Green Shell*
*Other Fox use Reflector and reflects the Green Shell*
*Match goes on till one Fox is hit by shell*

An example of fun.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's just stupid.

 

[BluePikmin11]

That's just stupid.

It's like saying uncle.

 

[Moon Monkey]

lol Everyone becomes serious about how broken they are, when we should have fun they are unbalanced. Don't go too nerdy about it.

Yeah sure if it was just friendlies and your playing for $h!ts and gigs then yeah who cares.

But on the flip side if your playing competitively there needs to be that balance.

As for the "don't get too nerdy" comment. That is bound to happen. Especially on SmashBoards, which is a site gear more towards the competitive spectrum of the game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

After two or three hits the Reflector breaks anyway at such high %s.

Also, what Kuma said.

Items = good fun when playing the game for the first time. Other than that: No.

Go play Mario Party instead if you're looking for such kind of game.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

After two or three hits the Reflector breaks anyway at such high %s.

Also, what Kuma said.

Items = good fun when playing the game for the first time. Other than that: No.

Go play Mario Party instead if you're looking for such kind of game.

Better than Fox vs Fox, no items, Final Destination only

That is BORING

 

[BluePikmin11]

After two or three hits the Reflector breaks anyway at such high %s.

Also, what Kuma said.

Items = good fun when playing the game for the first time. Other than that: No.

Go play Mario Party instead if you're looking for such kind of game.

Now what about Diddy Kong, who uses Banana Peels for strategy.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

My view on items is that they shouldn't net you a win instantly as you grab them, but they rather aid you on your combat. (All of Melee's Items > Dragoon and what else OHKO Items)

Though I hate how much my brother spams the use of items because he keeps throwing them all the damn time. It gets annoying after a while because he kinda camps while doing so.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Now what about Diddy Kong, who uses Banana Peels for strategy.

Still ain't no Bob-Omb or Pokéballs.

 

[Big-Cat]

Better than Fox vs Fox, no items, Final Destination only

That is BORING

Oh, way to go to bring up a completely out of date and inaccurate stereotype for Melee. That's like me saying all 3rd Strike matches are Chun-Li mirrors, all Tag 2 matches are Mishima team mirrors, all MvC2 matches are MSS mirrors, etc.

Now what about Diddy Kong, who uses Banana Peels for strategy.

Those are different as they're part of the character's design. Same thing goes with Peach's turnips (though I think the randomness should go).

 

[BluePikmin11]

Still ain't no Bob-Omb or Pokéballs.

So tripping doesn't flick you off?

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Melee's items IMO were more balanced than Brawl's.

Peach's items aren't that randomized anyway. Getting the dot-eyes or stitch-faces is super-difficult.

 

[Second Power]

Better than Fox vs Fox, no items, Final Destination only

That is BORING

I'd like to ask you look up the word tastes. Everyone finds different things interesting.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So tripping doesn't flick you off?

Random tripping does.

Especially when it gives casuals a reason to throw a Bob Omb in my face and think of themselves as superiour.

If I wanna play an item cluster**** game I'm playing Mario Kart.

My opinion: on equal skill, Fox only, Final Destination (Melee) is more fun than item cluster**** matches between equally skilled players in Brawl. Item matches are fun when playing with scrub friends and their cousin / younger brother / girlfriend / grandma / the neighbour / the dog, but it stops as soon as they actually get into the game. Which is more fun with a more balanced roster. And NO items.

My 2cents.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Melee's items IMO were more balanced than Brawl's.

Peach's items aren't that randomized anyway. Getting the dot-eyes or stitch-faces is super-difficult.

Brawl's Items at the same time a ultra random. The B-bomb doesn't always activate, creates/barrels and capsules randomly explode

 

[Swamp Sensei]

creates/barrels and capsules randomly explode

IIRC, the same happened in Melee, didn't it?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yes.