Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[BluePikmin11]

Has Sakurai even admitted to saying that's how he balances the games (outside of the all by himself part)? This is probably a dumb question, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's ever been proven that that's how he balances the games.

But if true it certainly does explain the poor balance, competitive play wise, we've had in past games in the series.

Didn't Namco say they were going to balance the game? They are the fighter genre you know.

 

[volbound1700]

Well some characters are better in items. For example, I play a lot with items with people and one guy mains Lucas in item games because Lucas can get the Smashball easier. For some reason he only has to hit it once or twice to get it and with his PK Lightning recovery move, it makes it easy to get the Smash Ball. Kirby also gets the ball easier while some characters have to bang on it a lot.

However, there are some really bad characters in Smash (Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, etc.). The heavier characters especially need to get better balancing.

Our tiers are based on no items which is not how the game is "supposed" to be played.



As for discussions, I would prefer clones over not having much of a roster at all. Plus clones usually have a couple of moves or even a weight class difference.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I think Brawl was the better fanservice game, while Melee was the better fighting game.

I thought the fanservice in Brawl was kind of lazy actually. I mean it had the quantity, but the quality was pretty questionable.

 

[Big-Cat]

Go with the long version. I'm not doing anything at the moment, so hit me up with a nice speech.

4-Player Free For All with items on.

Let's see where the problems lie in balancing a game with this setting. The big thing is randomness. Thing is, this randomness comes in a handful of ways, each one being different.

FFA has it where four players duke it out for the last man standing. The problem with this is how players can go about winning. One tactic would be to let everyone else beat each other up and steal the kills or wait until one remains standing and finish them off. As such, certain characters may be over or underpowered because of this waiting tactic. Another problem with FFA is that you run into the issue of players likely ganging up on someone else and obviously a 2v1 matchup without the proper scaling isn't going to fare well for the solo act.

The other issue is items. As we saw in Brawl, we saw that every item was either OP or UP. As such, you had items that undermined a myriad of tactics because they were so much better than all the other options that the character can naturally do. Items also spawn at specific spots at certain periods, but the item and the spawn point cannot be consistently predicted.

What needs to be done is to balance the characters up on a matchup basis without stage hazards or items involved. This allows the developers to play the characters at the highest level (theoretically) and pit them against one another to find the strengths and weaknesses of each character and make changes accordingly based on consistencies or the lack thereof. The reason why you want to balance at the highest level is because low level players aren't usually aware of the advanced options and techniques available to characters once you dig enough. I think we can all agree that Ike and Pit are not OP in high level play.

The key thing is that balancing requires consistency and that the only randomness that should occur is the natural serendipity of human beings. Without statistics to go off of, how can you balance a character?

 

[ChronoBound]

I thought the fanservice in Brawl was kind of lazy actually. I mean it had the quantity, but the quality was pretty questionable.

The only thing I thought was lazy with Brawl's fanservice was the trophies.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Yep. Project M is the closest we can get of having best of both worlds. (+ customization of stages and textures).

I just wonder will SSB4 be able to attain that. I hope it does.

Chrono: Hahahah, and look at all people who weren't even following Melee being all humble and like, never really giving a damn about the roster.

 

[---]

I think Brawl was the better fanservice game, while Melee was the better fighting game.

Agreed. I still prefer Brawl's gameplay better, but Melee definitely, intended or not by Sakurai, is the better fighter of the two. With Brawl's fanservice, I do think that it bit off more than it could chew at points mostly with some of the trophies and some parts of SSE, but the characters/stages/collectables/music/Nintendo's History were all spot on though.

Didn't Namco say they were going to balance the game? They are the fighter genre you know.

Namco themselves haven't said anything like that, but Sakurai said (when he admitted he did previous balance checks all by himself) that other people would be helping him in the balance department more, so was probably implied that it's Namco who will be doing it.

 

[Big-Cat]

The only thing I thought was lazy with Brawl's fanservice was the trophies.

There's also the ORIGINAL CHARACTER DONUT STEEL cast in the SSE where only a handful of enemies were actual preexisting characters.

Oh, and how the stickers thing was really lazy as you could find most of that art used online. Let's also not forget the uselessness of Chronicle and the Masterpieces.

 

[ChronoBound]

Chrono: Hahahah, and look at all people who weren't even following Melee being all humble and like, never really giving a damn about the roster.

There are people whining to this day about Melee's roster decisions. I personally think Dr. Mario and Pichu were less questionable inclusions than Zero Suit Samus and Snake, but that's just me.

 

[Frostwraith]

On the fanservice part, I think Brawl's trophies were kind of lazy since most of them were model rips from the then most recent games. Very few stuff from older games, like what happened with Melee.

Mario, Zelda, DK, Kirby and such had tons of trophies, mostly ripped from games released for GCN and Wii. Other series like Kid Icarus, EarthBound and Fire Emblem had virtually nothing.

Fire Emblem was just one of the worst selections as it had just Ike, Marth and Lyn made for Smash and four or five model rips from PoR and RD.

Kid Icarus had just stuff made for Brawl: Pit, Pit's FS, Palutena and Pit's bow. What.

 

[Big-Cat]

There are people whining to this day about Melee's roster decisions. I personally think Dr. Mario and Pich were less questionable inclusions than Zero Suit Samus and Snake, but that's just me.

Maybe at first, but who still *****es about the Melee roster? I don't think it was perfect, but it was definitely adequate and the clones were some nice fluff.

 

[Frostwraith]

I never *****ed about Melee's roster, but Brawl's was a ton better (and would've been better if it weren't for the lack of Mewtwo).

 

[FlareHabanero]

Maybe at first, but who still *****es about the Melee roster?

I still ***** about the Melee roster and the amount of fridge logic that came from making it. Also really hate the idea of padding in general, as such I'd rather have King Dedede over the 6 lazy character rehashes.

 

[---]

There's also the ORIGINAL CHARACTER DONUT STEEL cast in the SSE where only a handful of enemies were actual preexisting characters.

Oh, and how the stickers thing was really lazy as you could find most of that art used online. Let's also not forget the uselessness of Chronicle and the Masterpieces.

Actually I'd say it was good they went with original enemies. Most Nintendo series aside from the platformers don't have proper enemies to choose from, it also limits the game a bit more when you're stuck with pre-existing elements. Really SSE should have just replaced the stage locations with Nintendo based properties to get the nostalgia in.

The Chronicle was awesome and definitely has room to be expanded upon. Masterpieces were a neat idea, but now that we have demos on the eShop I doubt they'll return.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Yeah. But we can agree that even if some ways of fanservice wasn't well executed in Brawl, it was quite plentiful. Melee was more polished though but it had less of it. Quality over quantity?

 

[ChronoBound]

There's also the ORIGINAL CHARACTER DONUT STEEL cast in the SSE where only a handful of enemies were actual preexisting characters.

I rather had Sakurai just put in an expanded version of Melee's adventure mode, and used the time to make the SSE to finishing Mewtwo and Roy, and balancing the roster some more.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Chrono: Me too. I felt betrayed to no end because he spoused on and on how great SSE was gonna be:

A DREAM ADVENTURE GAME WITH NINTENDO CHARACTERS!

 

[FlareHabanero]

The thing that SSE really suffered from was a lack of diversity. A lot of the locations and enemies were really generic, and there was hardly any changes of pace. Move forward, beat up enemies, rinse and repeat.

 

[Big-Cat]

Let's not forget how the context of the whole thing was nonexistant. Why are they all trophies? What and where is this island they're on? What's Tabuu's ultimate plan? Why is no one talking?

 

[ChronoBound]

Let's not forget how the context of the whole thing was nonexistant. Why are they all trophies? What and where is this island they're on? What's Tabuu's ultimate plan? Why is no one talking?

To think they got the writer to FFVII to write the story to the SSE. I know some people will snicker that FFVII was bad though (its overrated, but by no means a bad game).

 

[BKupa666]

Makes you wonder how the original SSE would have gone, with Samus and DK riding to the Stadium on a bus and Snake watching from a distance...

 

[Oasis_S]

Though we're a bit past this, it's more than a little ironic that people would say Krystal could be like Palutena, but then Strongly deny that Goroh could be anything like Takamaru.

 

[Big-Cat]

Makes you wonder how the original SSE would have gone, with Samus and DK riding to the Stadium on a bus and Snake watching from a distance...

Hopefully more hilarious, but not hilariously bad, but covered in narm charm.

@Oasis
It's anti-furry prejudice spread by green-hair supremacists.

 

[---]

Only thing I hate about SSE is that it lacked any at all fan service outside of seeing all the Sci-Fi series ships teaming up.

Melee's Adventure mode was a ***** to play with every character and was even more repetitive and dumb than SSE, but just that one Mario stage definitely hit where I hold my nostalgia.

 

[IAm2Sarcastic4U]

I rather had Sakurai just put in an expanded version of Melee's adventure mode, and used the time to make the SSE to finishing Mewtwo and Roy, and balancing the roster some more.

THIS! Imagine how much time Sakurai would of had to spare on the development of the game if the SSE wasn't being developed. More stages? More characters? The possibilities!

 

[FlareHabanero]

I wouldn't mind a story that takes a more humorous toning, especially after playing Kid Icarus: Uprising.

 

[Baskerville]

Subspace as a whole was just pointless. You get nothing from the whole thing, even if you beat it on Intense at 100%.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Let's not forget how the context of the whole thing was nonexistant. Why are they all trophies? What and where is this island they're on? What's Tabuu's ultimate plan? Why is no one talking?

My big question with SSE was about how integrated all the different worlds are. Snake's in the SSE world: does that mean the United States exists there as well? Heck, what about Ike and Marth? Are their universes/worlds fully integrated as well?

I would prefer it if they did it like in NamcoxCapcom, where only characters in similar games and time periods shared worlds.

 

[volbound1700]

Yeah, I want something small like Melee that you can beat in one night and play with all the characters with the focus being on the Brawling. I felt the Event matches were weaker in Brawl and could have been upped.

I would like to see 1 stage per game. We got a Zelda, F-Zero, and Mario stage in Melee, why not have a Kirby Stage, Sonic Stage, Fire Emblem, DKC, etc.

 

[Big-Cat]

I wouldn't mind a story that takes a more humorous toning, especially after playing Kid Icarus: Uprising.

This will only work if and only if Capt. Falcon says, "EXCELLENT!"

 

[volbound1700]

This will only work if and only if Capt. Falcon says, "EXCELLENT!"

"Show me YOUR MOVES!"


I love that quote.

 

[ChronoBound]

Melee's Adventure mode was a ***** to play with every character and was even more repetitive and dumb than SSE, but just that one Mario stage definitely hit where I hold my nostalgia.

Melee's Adventure Mode was definitely better than the SSE (especially considering how much time and resources went into it). Some series themes could have used better work.

The only series that needed better work for their stages in Melee's Adventure Mode were DK, Kirby, Mother, and Star Fox. Mario, Zelda, Metroid, F-Zero, Pokemon, and Ice Climber were done well.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I wonder if they'd integrate something from Tales Of-series: skits, character development, japanese flavour (but not ecchi stuff) and what else we would like.

Not to mention cast of Symphonia or Phantasia coming out of nowhere and tag along with them for temporary time, and then leave at some point. Maybe they'd aid you by defeating enemies but you can play as them.

One can dream.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I wonder if they'd integrate something from Tales Of-series: skits, character development, japanese flavour (but not ecchi stuff) and what else we would like.

Also terrible chefs.

 

[Big-Cat]

Don't forget actual combos.

Manly had the excellent suggestion of having the story mode go for more a visual novel approach as opposed to the expensive cutscenes. And I think the Adventure stages need to be much shorter.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I still like the cutscenes. It's just that they needed bit more characterization to them and interaction aside from "LET'S TEAM UP AND WRECK **** OUT OF EVERYTHING"

But maybe we'd need smaller amount, you know, for much important exposition. Visual Novel-like storytelling would fit for smaller scenes or advancements of the plot.

Habanero: Palutena? Though she's not terrible, she's just catastrophically careless.

 

[---]

Melee's Adventure Mode was definitely better than the SSE (especially considering how much time and resources went into it). Some series themes could have used better work.

The only series that needed better work for their stages in Melee's Adventure Mode were DK, Kirby, Mother, and Star Fox. Mario, Zelda, Metroid, F-Zero, Pokemon, and Ice Climber were done well.

Gameplay wise SSE was better as a whole, but fan service wise Adventure Mode was better. Like I said in a previous post, we need a balance between the two. SSE was boring and generic, and AM was repetitive and was more or less classic mode outside of that first stage, but they both each have their own strengths.


Honestly all Smash 4 needs to do is take SSE and set it in the Mushroom Kingdom, add in a few enemies from past Nintendo series with original enemies mixed in, a story that plays off of laughs rather than depth (crossover stories almost always suck and given Smash's size it'll need to play off of it's nostalgic strengths).

As a side note, I'd also like to see broken down into unlock-able chapters as to make the mode less repetitive and getting rid of the fact that you unlock everything for just completing it. Would also give you time to build up your stickers in other modes before you tackle some of the harder levels.

 

[peeup]

Remember when this thread was supposed to be a discussion about the roster?

#throwbackthursdays

 

[Big-Cat]

It's Sunday.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Habanero: Palutena? Though she's not terrible, she's just catastrophically careless.

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of several characters being fairly bad at cooking, but Samus being the most notable offender. Samus may be a very efficient bounty hunter, but she couldn't make a meal to save her life.