Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[lobotheduck21]

Ridley even made an appearance as TWO bosses in Nintendo Land, which was the pack-in game for the Wii U. Takamaru and Toad are also playable characters in Nintendo Land (or at least your Miis dress up as them).

So what games were those

 

[N3ON]

Personally I would move Meta-Knight and Ridley down to 9s, and I wouldn't classify Hades and Viridi more "important" than Medusa, considering you are basing it on the entire KI series. I'd move them down to 7s. Just my opinion though.

Other than that, pretty decent list. Then again, these are the easier series to classify.

 

[Gamingboy]

It'll be really tough for you to do Pokemon, Frost, since it's not so much a game series so much as it's a media juggernaut that is made up of multiple game series (the main one, Mystery Dungeon, the Pikachu series, Ranger, etc.), an anime that is still running (with movies that go along with them), several manga, the trading card game, and countless miscellaneous merchandising.

So, like, in the main series of games (with the exception of Yellow), Pikachu is a cute semi-rare pokemon that definitely isn't the best but definitely isn't the worst you could have- probably a 5/10 or 6/10 at most. But in his series, the Mystery Dungeon series and most of the anime, manga and merchandising he's 10/10. And Pokemon can fluctuate so much with time. Like, Mario is always 10/10 in his series, but the importance of most Pokemon differ by generation: Jigglypuff has gone from being Pokemon's de-facto second mascot to just one of the most fondly-remembered first-genners, Mewtwo has gone from being the biggest badass in the world to just the original biggest badass in the world.

Really, the one constant has been Zubats driving us all crazy when we walk inside of caves, and that wasn't even true in Gen. V until BW2.

Stupid Zubats.

 

[Frostwraith]

Thanks for the feedback so far, everybody! =D

I will address some details you pointed in my next post. Since I have some games more fresh in my mind than others, I naturally let some details slip away and biased some of the details (especially in the Kid Icarus and Zelda parts).

Can't believe on how I forgot Paper Mario. o.o

And yes, the FE and Pokémon parts will be tough, so I am saving those for last.

 

[FlareHabanero]

So what games were those

Metroid Blast
Takamaru's Ninja Castle
Mario Chase

Respectively of course.

 

[Gamingboy]

Oh, and let me go out and say that if you do Punch-Out, the list goes Little Mac, King Hippo, Glass Joe, and then it differs based on who you ask.

 

[Frostwraith]

On the series I know less, I will have to spend some time with researching the source games before analysing further details.

I only have on question... What exactly are you using to judge how important each character is to their franchise?

I mean, after seeing the discussion in this thread for the past few months, I've noticed there is not only a lot of bias in what constitutes importance, but also a lot of conflicting opinions.

How are you avoiding this to make a fair judgement?

- Despite my efforts to keep objectivity, I might slip some personal bias. I apologize for this in advance.

 

[N3ON]

@Gamingboy
Don't forget Doc Louis
(not that he'll ever be playable)

If you do plan on classifying unrepresented series though, for the most part, it will be pretty obvious which character is the most important (Little Mac, Isaac, Shulk, Starfy, etc), but it would be interesting if the obvious reps from each series were just compared to importance to Nintendo in general (though that would put them in "competition" with each other, which would probably cause a ****storm).

Anyway, good luck with the rest of those series. I don't think we argue about Fire Emblem and Pokemon enough anyway.

 

[BKupa666]

I wonder whether or not it's entirely fair to judge the absences of DK characters from their franchise's games, given that it is divided between regular games and arcade games that feature only DK himself. That, plus the reality that DK games don't come out that often when compared to other franchises.

 

[Deleted member]

On the series I know less, I will have to spend some time with researching the source games before analysing further details.

Ahh, OK. This reminds me of this 10 part video someone had made on Youtube addressing all the possible characters for Smash 4 and analyzing their chances.

I can't remember who did it though, nor can I find it...

 

[ChronoBound]

I wonder whether or not it's entirely fair to judge the absences of DK characters from their franchise's games, given that it is divided between regular games and arcade games that feature only DK himself. That, plus the reality that DK games don't come out that often when compared to other franchises.

DK games becoming uncommon in release is a relatively recent phenomenon. Since 2008, there were only three DK games released, two out of three of which were the Donkey Kong vs. Mario subseries. Of the "Rare-based Donkey Kong series", the only new game we saw since Brawl's release was Donkey Kong Country Returns.

I just find it weird how so many characters dropped off the face of the earth after Mario Super Sluggers. Heck, even Toadette has not made any more game appearances since that game.

 

[Frostwraith]

@Gamingboy
Don't forget Doc Louis
(not that he'll ever be playable)

If you do plan on classifying unrepresented series though, for the most part, it will be pretty obvious which character is the most important (Little Mac, Isaac, Shulk, Starfy, etc), but it would be interesting if the obvious reps from each series were just compared to importance to Nintendo in general (though that would put them in "competition" with each other, which would probably cause a ****storm).

Anyway, good luck with the rest of those series. I don't think we argue about Fire Emblem and Pokemon enough anyway.

on your first point, I will do the unrepresented series as one category, since we're likely getting one newcomer from each.

I'll save Fire Emblem and Pokémon for my next post. Given the amount of characters in those, it will be tough to rate the characters from the franchise.

I wonder whether or not it's entirely fair to judge the absences of DK characters from their franchise's games, given that it is divided between regular games and arcade games that feature only DK himself. That, plus the reality that DK games don't come out that often when compared to other franchises.

since nowadays, most people associate the DK series to the regular games, I had this in account when analysing the DK characters.

Most of these characters were also chosen by having or not major support for their inclusion in SSB4.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Keep in mind the different beliefs between the two sides of the coin. A classic example is the contrasting views between the Japanese and Americans.

-The Japanese are more fond of cute things, while Americans are more fond of tough things.
-The Japanese embrace the present, while Americans embrace the past.
-The Japanese have more of a sense of comparing, while Americans have a sense of contrasting.

You can even see what I mean regarding to this very speculation.

The first point would explain why characters like Ridley are mostly popular in the west. It's mainly because of Rare though that the 2nd point remains true.

Habanero: True. But if anything, Westerners shouldn't be considered a minority compared to Japanese because how much their views contrast with them. Smash Bros shouldn't be just be pleasing japanese masses and throw more clones or popular requests in Japan only after all.

I agree. Pleasing only them would be the definition of selfish.

Knew the fanboys would be all over me. But whatever I still stand by what I said especially for Ridley.

Are you one of those people that calls whoever disagrees with you a fanboy? >.> Chrono made some valid points there. I wouldn't give Ridley a 10/10 either though in likeliness but a 9 or 8.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

700 Pokemon...

I wonder who'll be Pokemon #666.

Probably a demon.

 

[Arcadenik]

What I liked about the Brawl roster is how Sakurai gave most veteran franchises at least one newcomer per series.

Mario series: 0
Donkey Kong series: 1 (Diddy Kong)
Zelda series: 1 (Toon Link)
Metroid series: 1 (Zero Suit Samus)
Yoshi series: 0
Kirby series: 2 (Meta Knight, King Dedede)
Star Fox series: 1 (Wolf)
Pokemon series: 2 (Pokemon Trainer Red, Lucario)
F-Zero series: 0
Mother series: 1 (Lucas)
Ice Climber series: 0
Fire Emblem series: 1 (Ike)
Game & Watch series: 0

I would like to see a similar approach in SSB4 because it will encourage Sakurai to be a bit objective and keeps things balanced just like how it was in SSB 64.

Mario series: 1 (Toad)
Donkey Kong series: 2 (King K. Rool, Dixie Kong)
Zelda series: 1 (Impa)

Spoiler

I would have put Tingle here as the second Zelda newcomer if I felt confident about his chances

Metroid series: 1 (Ridley)
Yoshi series: 0
Kirby series: 1 (Waddle Dee)
Star Fox series: 0
Pokemon series: 2 (Pokemon Trainer Gold, Zoroark)
F-Zero series: 0
Mother series: 0
Ice Climber series: 0
Fire Emblem series: 1 (Chrom)
Game & Watch series: 0
Kid Icarus series: 2 (Palutena, Medusa)
Wario series: 0

I think it's more appropriate than what we saw in Melee...

Mario series: 3 (Bowser, Peach, Dr. Mario)
Donkey Kong series: 0
Zelda series: 3 (Zelda/Sheik, Ganondorf, Young Link)
Metroid series: 0
Yoshi series: 0
Kirby series: 0
Star Fox series: 1 (Falco)
Pokemon series: 2 (Mewtwo, Pichu)
F-Zero series: 0
Mother series: 0

It just seems odd to me how seemingly random it was that Star Fox was the only franchise to get a newcomer, considering that Nintendo's three biggest franchises at the time each got newcomers. Then again, newcomer franchise Fire Emblem got two characters.

 

[N3ON]

It just seems odd to me how seemingly random it was that Star Fox was the only franchise to get a newcomer, considering that Nintendo's three biggest franchises at the time each got newcomers. Then again, newcomer franchise Fire Emblem got two characters.

It's probably because around Melee characters like Falco and Wolf had decent popularity and would make pretty easy filler clones, unlike other major/popular characters from already represented series, who would have to be unique (for the most part).

 

[---]

Sorry if it took me a second to respond, my dorm's WiFi sucks and goes down at random intervals.

None of the people who disagreed with you are fanboys. I really hope this comment was tongue-in-cheek.

Yeah I'm mostly just teasing since I automatically knew a lot of people would instantly react.

Anyway with Ridley at least he's definitely the 2nd most important character to the franchise, but he hasn't appeared in every single game and in several he's had to share the spotlight with other villains such as Mother Brain and Dark Samus. His relation to Samus only came up after Zero Mission as well. He's huge and iconic for the franchise but putting him at the same level as Samus I think is a little bit overboard. I'd think a 9 would be pretty fair.

I'd say something similar for K.Rool, but I forgot just how big the DK series is, he's 8.5 IMO though.

 

[Frostwraith]

I rated Ridley 10/10 for the same reason as Ganondorf in the Zelda series. Much like Ganon, he's the driving force of the main story, being the cause of the death of Samus's parents, in other words, being the motivation Samus has in being a bounty hunter and chasing the Space Pirates.

As I see, the Big Bad of a story is as important as the hero in the same story.

 

[Gamingboy]

I just find it weird how so many characters dropped off the face of the earth after Mario Super Sluggers. Heck, even Toadette has not made any more game appearances since that game.

I partially blame this on the fact that there have been fewer Mario sports games (outside of the Mario & Sonic series, which of course has Sonic characters taking up spots that might have been Mario characters if it was just "Mario at the Olympics"), and those that there have been, like Sports Mix and Tennis Open, haven't been big team games like the Sluggers or Strikers series. And the Mario Kart games haven't returned to a Double-Dash formula either, which also keeps the number of characters low.

 

[Arcadenik]

700 Pokemon...

I wonder who'll be Pokemon #666.

Probably a Dark/Ghost, Ghost/Fire, or Fire/Dark Pokemon.

 

[Gamingboy]

I do have to wonder if we'll see Sluggers and Strikers come back now, since it's a new system and they seem to be "one installment per generation" type games....

 

[Arcadenik]

I rated Ridley 10/10 for the same reason as Ganondorf in the Zelda series. Much like Ganon, he's the driving force of the main story, being the cause of the death of Samus's parents, in other words, being the motivation Samus has in being a bounty hunter and chasing the Space Pirates.

As I see, the Big Bad of a story is as important as the hero in the same story.

Then King K. Rool should have gotten 10/10. He's also the driving force of the main story. He was the one who stole the bananas in DKC, kidnapped Donkey Kong in DKC2, kidnapped both Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong in DKC3, and kidnapped Diddy Kong, Tiny Kong, Lanky Kong, and Chunky Kong, AND plotted to blow up Donkey Kong Island in DK64.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I do have to wonder if we'll see Sluggers and Strikers come back now, since it's a new system and they seem to be "one installment per generation" type games....

I know right, baseball is the second most popular sport next to American football and with soccer (Eastern football) in the lead.

 

[lobotheduck21]

Mario sports games are either dying (tennis), dead (golf), or undetermined (baseball), the only one doing ok is m & s at the Olympics

 

[Gamingboy]

I know right, baseball is the second most popular sport next to American football and with soccer (Eastern football) in the lead.

Soccer is the most popular sport in Europe, South America, Africa and continental Asia. It's either the second or third most popular sport in Japan.

Baseball is the second most popular sport in America and the most popular sport in Japan, Korea and the Caribbean.



Either way.... $$$$.

 

[Frostwraith]

Then King K. Rool should have gotten 10/10. He's also the driving force of the main story. He was the one who stole the bananas in DKC, kidnapped Donkey Kong in DKC2, kidnapped both Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong in DKC3, and kidnapped Diddy Kong, Tiny Kong, Lanky Kong, and Chunky Kong, AND plotted to blow up Donkey Kong Island in DK64.

While I mostly agree with you. K. Rool's only the Big Bad in some games, while Ridley is responsible for making Samus what she is. So, even if indirectly, Ridley is the cause of all the events in Metroid, contrasting with K. Rool, who only appears in some games in the entire franchise (arcade games included).

Long story short: K. Rool is the Big Bad for certain games' events, while Ridley is the Big Bad for the whole franchise.

 

[BKupa666]

DK games becoming uncommon in release is a relatively recent phenomenon. Since 2008, there were only three DK games released, two out of three of which were the Donkey Kong vs. Mario subseries. Of the "Rare-based Donkey Kong series", the only new game we saw since Brawl's release was Donkey Kong Country Returns.

I just find it weird how so many characters dropped off the face of the earth after Mario Super Sluggers. Heck, even Toadette has not made any more game appearances since that game.

Part of this might stem from Nintendo's fixation on the "New" Mario games, along with a select few others. Games from smaller franchises now receive just one installment per console, if they're lucky, that is...Star Fox and F-Zero weren't.

In terms of DK, even the Paon games were far from noteworthy franchise installments. According to DKVine, only the DKC GBA port and Diddy Kong Racing DS sold more than a million copies out of all 11 DK games between 2001 and 2007. In the general public's eye, DK doesn't get new games very often at all.

 

[ChronoBound]

In terms of DK, even the Paon games were far from noteworthy franchise installments. According to DKVine, only the DKC GBA port and Diddy Kong Racing DS sold more than a million copies out of all 11 DK games between 2001 and 2007. In the general public's eye, DK doesn't get new games very often at all.

I am sure the GBA port of DKC2 sold over a million copies worldwide as well.

Yeah, the poor performance of Paon's DK games is probably the reason why we have not seen a new DK game from them since 2007. However, they should be creditted with at least putting K. Rool back in the spotlight (by comparison Dixie Kong was a playable character in the Donkey Konga games, Diddy Kong Racing DS, Paon's games, Mario Hoops 3-on-3, and both Mario Baseball games, so K. Rool really need those major roles in those Paon games since he was nearly non-existent outside of them).

 

[---]

I rated Ridley 10/10 for the same reason as Ganondorf in the Zelda series. Much like Ganon, he's the driving force of the main story, being the cause of the death of Samus's parents, in other words, being the motivation Samus has in being a bounty hunter and chasing the Space Pirates.

As I see, the Big Bad of a story is as important as the hero in the same story.

I still disagree but whatever. Just don't add number ratings to your next list and stick with the characters worth mentioning, Mario's done anyway. I shutter at the reactions people (myself included) would have towards series like Pokemon, Fire Emblem, and Mother.

 

[N3ON]

I rated Ridley 10/10 for the same reason as Ganondorf in the Zelda series. Much like Ganon, he's the driving force of the main story, being the cause of the death of Samus's parents, in other words, being the motivation Samus has in being a bounty hunter and chasing the Space Pirates.

As I see, the Big Bad of a story is as important as the hero in the same story.

If you made your list solely on importance to the main plot of the series, it should be re-ordered (and Waluigi should have 0/10). It seems you took multiple factors into account, such as prominence in the series, impact the character has had, amount of major appearances, and popularity. While I agree Ridley would be the 2nd most "important" character in the Metroid series, I don't think he is at the same level as Samus (in any of those categories, except perhaps impact within the series). If you were just basing on importance to the storyline, and catalyst to the events of the series, a character like Demise should have like 10/10. And a character like Pikachu, who has no effect on the story and isn't the protagonist, should logically have a fairly low "importance" level, but because "importance" seems to mean more than that, he would have a higher level, and in comparison to Ridley, so would Samus.

"Importance" can tend to be sort of a grey area and subjective for some characters IMO.

 

[BKupa666]

I am sure the GBA port of DKC2 sold over a million copies worldwide as well.

Yeah, the poor performance of Paon's DK games is probably the reason why we have not seen a new DK game from them since 2007. However, they should be creditted with at least putting K. Rool back in the spotlight (by comparison Dixie Kong was a playable character in the Donkey Konga games, Diddy Kong Racing DS, Paon's games, Mario Hoops 3-on-3, and both Mario Baseball games, so K. Rool really need those major roles in those Paon games since he was nearly non-existent outside of them).

Paon doesn't always get the respect they deserve for keeping Rare's characters other than DK and Diddy (and somewhat Dixie) alive in the franchise. Their games flew under-the-radar, but they were better than nothing.

As far as importance goes, a combination of plot importance and general noteworthiness should be the criteria, since to a degree, those two factors are intertwined anyways.

 

[lobotheduck21]

Baseball actually is losing it's popularity in America, just look at the World Series television ratings, I would say it's third behind American football and basketball

 

[ChronoBound]

I just hope that Dixie Kong and K. Rool make at least one more appearance before Smash 4's release. I really don't like it that their last appearance was Mario Super Sluggers. Dixie Kong at the very least should have been in Mario Sports Mix (since she was already a playable character in Mario Hoops 3-on-3).

 

[---]

If you made your list solely on importance to the main plot of the series, it should be re-ordered (and Waluigi should have 0/10). It seems you took multiple factors into account, such as prominence in the series, impact the character has had, amount of major appearances, and popularity. While I agree Ridley would be the 2nd most "important" character in the Metroid series, I don't think he is at the same level as Samus (in any of those categories, except perhaps impact within the series). If you were just basing on importance to the storyline, and catalyst to the events of the series, a character like Demise should have like 10/10. And a character like Pikachu, who has no effect on the story and isn't the protagonist, should logically have a fairly low "importance" level, but because "importance" seems to mean more than that, he would have a higher level, and in comparison to Ridley, so would Samus.

"Importance" can tend to be sort of a grey area and subjective for some characters IMO.

This.

Spoiler

Man I suck at coming up with putting what I want to say into a good context.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Damn, I almost want to play Paon's DK games now. May have perhaps been for the best though that they were under the radar before something better (Retro Studios) came around, like how the good Batman games were all under the radar before the Arkham ones were released (unrelated example, but you get the point).

 

[Frostwraith]

If you made your list solely on importance to the main plot of the series, it should be re-ordered (and Waluigi should have 0/10). It seems you took multiple factors into account, such as prominence in the series, impact the character has had, amount of major appearances, and popularity. While I agree Ridley would be the 2nd most "important" character in the Metroid series, I don't think he is at the same level as Samus (in any of those categories, except perhaps impact within the series). If you were just basing on importance to the storyline, and catalyst to the events of the series, a character like Demise should have like 10/10. And a character like Pikachu, who has no effect on the story and isn't the protagonist, should logically have a fairly low "importance" level, but because "importance" seems to mean more than that, he would have a higher level, and in comparison to Ridley, so would Samus.

"Importance" can tend to be sort of a grey area and subjective for some characters IMO.

Storyline was a factor, but number of appearences in games, popularity and recognizability were factors as well.

Some games have more emphasis on story than others and some series are better known than others. That's why I am analysing the characters per series.

The reason I rated K. Rool an 8 was also because of his number of appearences throughout the series.

Diddy Kong was higher rated than Dixie and K. Rool because he appeared in more Mario spin-offs and had his own Diddy Kong Racing series. Donkey Kong was rated as more important because he's the only character on the arcade games to have major relevance.

In some cases, importance is indeed subjective, and I did warn for that.

 

[Gamingboy]

Mother: The three most "important" characters are Giygas, Pokey/Porky, and the Mr. Saturns as a race. None of them are fighter-capable.

Ness is the most important outside of them, since he was the lone protagonist who made it to the USA, was the one who led the team that finished off Giygas for good (with a little help from the breaking of the fourth wall), and the hatred Pokey/Porky had for him is what led to Pokey/Porky's actions in M3.

 

[N3ON]

Storyline was a factor, but number of appearences in games, popularity and recognizability were factors as well.

Some games have more emphasis on story than others and some series are better known than others. That's why I am analysing the characters per series.

The reason I rated K. Rool an 8 was also because of his number of appearences throughout the series.

Diddy Kong was higher rated than Dixie and K. Rool because he appeared in more Mario spin-offs and had his own Diddy Kong Racing series. Donkey Kong was rated as more important because he's the only character on the arcade games to have major relevance.

In some cases, importance is indeed subjective, and I did warn for that.

Yeah, I get all of this (and I said similar things in my post), and I don't disagree with how you classified the DK series, but you aren't really touching on the point of my post, which was Ridley's rating. In number of appearances, popularity, and being recognizable (your factors), Samus is definitely a point above Ridley. The only one they are similar on is impact to the storyline.

I mean, it doesn't really matter, it's just your personal list, and no one can force you to change anything on it, but I just disagree with a few of the ratings. There's not much point arguing over one point though, especially when the RPG series are still forthcoming.

 

[Gamingboy]

BTW, can I go on record as saying I liked the whole Double-Dash thing and think they should bring it back, even if it's just as an option (like you could if you wanted to race as the "Mario Brothers" instead of just Mario or Just Luigi).

 

[Big-Cat]

Keep in mind the different beliefs between the two sides of the coin. A classic example is the contrasting views between the Japanese and Americans.

-The Japanese are more fond of cute things, while Americans are more fond of tough things.
-The Japanese embrace the present, while Americans embrace the past.
-The Japanese have more of a sense of comparing, while Americans have a sense of contrasting.

You can even see what I mean regarding to this very speculation.

I find this very funny as people here are one or the other depending on the character. The whole Impa-Sheik debate is pretty much this subverted while Fire Emblem and Pokemon play this recurrence straight.