Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Ridley_Prime]

I'm not against removals, I'm against pointless removals, and at this point, there is no point to cutting Brawls roster beyond the guest characters.

Fair enough.

No, Mewtwo was pretty terrible. He actually had some decent concepts going to him like a surprisingly potent grab game and recoveries, but he suffered from difficulties actually making kills due to poor range and speed and being light weight with a large frame made him very vulnerable to combos and KO's. Essentially he was a glass cannon minus the cannon part.



Considering a large portion of his supporters don't even know about Roy's character in Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals, arguably yes.

Brawl Ganon suffered from most of those things you mentioned and more. He should be cut from SSB4 then by all means, along with others like Capt Falcon who were nerfed to the point that they became terrible too.

C'mon, you know Mewtwo can be buffed just as easily as others were, unless your head is far too up your *** over your dislike of him or something.

 

[Deleted member]

Depends on the people you're talking about then. For me wanting Mewtwo back is definitely a desire and not a pity. Even before the Brawl trailers I wanted him to return but with some buffs, akin to what Bowser got in Brawl. And while Mewtwo was one of the things I grew up with, him being one of my favorites isn't simply due to nostalgia alone. To be honest he could be a gen 5 or 6 and I would still adore him as much for being the badass humanoid psychic pokestein that he is.

And since you brought up the people who selfishly wanted him gone before Brawl's roster was revealed, I wonder where they are now... It's funny how people seem to all be against cuts now compared to pre-Brawl.

Oh, also, what Golden said.

I'm not dude. I've already said, he could cut 50% or more of the roster and I'd be OK with it as long as the gameplay is solid. In fact a smaller roster usually means the current cast gets new moves, new buff, and the like, which is also very exciting to see.

Check the Roster I just posted. It's very cut happy.

I mostly cut out the guests and redundant characters under that assumption that the WHOLE cast gets new moves and buffs.

To avoid another argument, here's something to consider.
Sakurai had an issue against real guns that shoot bullets, correct?

Well, Uprising has a few gun-like weapons like the Flintlock Staff and the Bullet Blade. Think maybe he has less of an issue now?

Bayonetta confirmed

I've always wondered why the issue of guns is such a big deal? I think Power Stone did a great job of adding gun weapons in a comedic way that was benign compared to most other games. I always wondered why other games did not pursue a similar approach?

I've always felt it was because bullets are hard to balance and could be a very cheap edgeguard tools. But as you said other games have done a good job with them, like Powerstone and BlazBlue.

Maybe Sakurai might feel like he "has to" put up Mewtwo DLC if people keep badgering him about not adding Mewtwo in SSB4 in the first place.

Hey, maybe cutting characters wouldn't be so bad if they came back as DLC! LOL bargaining.

This is another reason why I'm not against cuts, they may always come back as DLC. Also it means future installments now have more options as well.

 

[ChronoBound]

You right it could of got lost on the last page.


Sakurai has stated his concerns about roster size. He has gone on record that he wants to refine and balance the game out as much as possible; as opposed to increasing an imbalanced roster

So to say he'll add more pokemon reps if he ''has to'' is kind of contradicting.

I am aware of Sakurai's comments about not focusing so much on boosting the roster and that he "probably close to the limit in terms of what's feasible", and even made a post today talking about it.

That being said, keep in mind that there are very few high priority characters left to add in Smash Bros. Due to there being so few of these high priority characters, and due to how few characters there are that much of the Smash Bros. fanbase agrees on their inclusion for Smash 4, a character like Mewtwo is a high priority addition, despite the possibility of Sakurai being strong-armed into adding a new flavor-of-the-month Pokemon.

Sakurai could very well add in only 10 new characters and call it a day, while spending most of his efforts re-designing a lot of the existing characters and making big leaps in terms of gameplay innovations.

There are very few characters that much of the Smash Bros. fanbase wants in Smash 4, and even fewer characters left that are iconic to Nintendo overall. A character like Mewtwo, is still the most popular and iconic of all the legendary Pokemon in the series.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Maybe Sakurai might feel like he "has to" put up Mewtwo DLC if people keep badgering him about not adding Mewtwo in SSB4 in the first place.

Hey, maybe cutting characters wouldn't be so bad if they came back as DLC! LOL bargaining.

Now DLC sounds pretty viable! But idk how Nintendo is gonna handel it. Yeah sure DLC for new super mario bros. 2, but im not convinced yet. Hopefully they take notes from
*looks around and whispers* playstation all-stars battle royale and how they are handeling it.

As long as they are balanced additions. Only other issue the wiiu and it's space.

:Wiiu:

 

[Deleted member]

other issue the wiiu and it's space

You mean with that 2TB Hard Drive you can have for it right?

 

[Deleted member]

No, Mewtwo was pretty terrible. He actually had some decent concepts going to him like a surprisingly potent grab game and recoveries, but he suffered from difficulties actually making kills due to poor range and speed and being light weight with a large frame made him very vulnerable to combos and KO's. Essentially he was a glass cannon minus the cannon part.

Perhaps if you didn't know how to play as him, he was terrible. But try watching Taj in action with his Mewtwo and say Mewtwo is terrible.
You're not going to get anything that impressive for the likes of Yoshi, Bowser, or Kirby, who were much worse than you make Mewtwo out to be.

Considering a large portion of his supporters don't even know about Roy's character in Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals, arguably yes.

So because they don't care about his "character" in his own game, he's wanted out of pity rather than wanted because he's a guy with a flaming sword?
What does that do for Captain Falcon fans, hmm? His "character" in the F-Zero games is nothing like the hotblooded cocky badass he is in Smash. I guess he's only popular in Smash out of pity.
Ok, then. Starting to consider you as someone to not take seriously again like Arcade and HyperFalcon.

 

[ChronoBound]

other issue the wiiu and it's space

The 3DS has even less space, and I am really certain the 3DS and Wii U versions will have the same roster. If character DLC can't be done on the 3DS, it won't happen for the Wii U.

 

[FlareHabanero]

C'mon, you know Mewtwo can be buffed just as easily as others were, unless your head is far too up your *** over your dislike of him or something.

Just because you can give characters buffs, it doesn't automatically mean improvements. For example, Bowser and Zelda in Super Smash Bros. Brawl who despite got buffs are still very mediocre in general. Zelda in particular actually fairs worse in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda got buffs?
News to me.

 

[Moon Monkey]

You mean with that 2TB Hard Drive you can have for it right?

My bad i meant 3DS. I don't know how expansive the 3DS is

 

[ChronoBound]

Just because you can give characters buffs, doesn't automatically mean improvements. For example, Bowser and Zelda in Super Smash Bros. Brawl who despite getting buffs are still very mediocre in general. Zelda in particular actually fairs worse in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

I think Sakurai realizes this, which is why I think a major focus on Smash 4 is going to be balance and character overhauls.

 

[Arcadenik]

Mewtwo had a high learning curve in Melee... with that said, I used to main Mewtwo after I learned how to land hits (especially his Aerial Forward+A and Aerial Down+A moves). His A moves seem to have very small hitboxes... and yet he is a large floating hitbox. I also liked his double jump... it was very floaty and it reached new heights. I also like his throws but I feel he should be able to throw opponents at lower percentages.

Personally, I felt Zelda's Side+B move was buffed. I could juggle enemies using just Din's Fire till they are KO'd offscreen. But other than that, she could use some speed boosts. Hopefully Skyward Sword gives Sakurai a reason to increase her speed. After all, Zelda's role in the game was to constantly run away from Ghirahim's advances and keep up with Impa.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda got buffs?
News to me.

She did. Her side Airs became lethal with added range and power. Plus a bit of a delay effect on impact that screams YOU JUST GOT HIT. It could kill you at 80-90%, from mid-stage.

Problem was she couldn't make good use of them because everything else about her still sucked. Except her Fireballs, those got an upgrade as well with added hitbox.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Mewtwo had a high learning curve in Melee... with that said, I used to main Mewtwo after I learned how to land hits (especially his Aerial Forward+A and Aerial Down+A moves). His A moves seem to have very small hitboxes... and yet he is a large floating hitbox. I also liked his double jump... it was very floaty and it reached new heights. I also like his throws but I feel he should be able to throw opponents at lower percentages.

Personally, I felt Zelda's Side+B move was buffed. I could juggle enemies using just Din's Fire till they are KO'd offscreen. But other than that, she could use some speed boosts. Hopefully Skyward Sword gives Sakurai a reason to increase her speed. After all, Zelda's role in the game was to constantly run away from Ghirahim's advances and keep up with Impa.

Funny because it is mostly true

All three should be in: Zelda's speed, Ghirahim, & Impa

 

[FlareHabanero]

Zelda got buffs?
News to me.

In general most of her moves received boosts in power and/or speed, and she also received slight boosts in movement speed and grab speed. But her main issues come from Brawl's mechanic changes amplifying her problems from Melee, notably poor endurance, poor approach, and unreliable finishing moves.

 

[Deleted member]

****, I stayed up real late this time...

I'll just leave this here before I leave:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2ZmnE0KV6g

Watch that video, and then considering K. Rool is apparently inspired by Teddy Roosevelt, tell me what sort of moveset you would give him. One that can contrast his political inspirations.

 

[Moon Monkey]

I am aware of Sakurai's comments about not focusing so much on boosting the roster and that he "probably close to the limit in terms of what's feasible", and even made a post today talking about it.

That being said, keep in mind that there are very few high priority characters left to add in Smash Bros. Due to there being so few of these high priority characters, and due to how few characters there are that much of the Smash Bros. fanbase agrees on their inclusion for Smash 4, a character like Mewtwo is a high priority addition, despite the possibility of Sakurai being strong-armed into adding a new flavor-of-the-month Pokemon.

Sakurai could very well add in only 10 new characters and call it a day, while spending most of his efforts re-designing a lot of the existing characters and making big leaps in terms of gameplay innovations.

There are very few characters that much of the Smash Bros. fanbase wants in Smash 4, and even fewer characters left that are iconic to Nintendo overall. A character like Mewtwo, is still the most popular and iconic of all the legendary Pokemon in the series.

As of right now I can only see Mewtwo being added, (TBH I hope he replaces Lucario) but another one? No. This is first and foremost a Nintendo All-Star game. Not A Mario/Pokemon/Zelda All-Star game. Yes these franchises are important and have played a big role in Nintendo's growth, but they aren't the only ones. So while yes there may be a lower demand of these high priority characters, but who is to say that can't be opportunity for low priority franchise to get some spotlight?

Pokemon have 4 reps currently, a boss.(Requaza) and a pokeball support that is probably bigger than the assist trophy cast. If Mewtwo is to be added to the roster that would 5 reps, not to mention the inevitable increase in pokeball rep size for 5th gen possibly 6th Gen. The pokemon franchise doesn't need more reps on top of all of this. In fact they have the most reps out of all franchises even the main staple Mario!

:WiiU:

 

[Starphoenix]

Technically Pokémon has six playable characters already.

 

[ChronoBound]

If mewtwo is added to the roster that would 5 reps not to mention the increase in pokeball rep size for 5th gen. the pokemon franchise doesn't need more reps on top of all of this. they have the most reps out of all franchises even the main staple mario!

Just because Pokemon has more playable characters does not mean, Mario is being neglected. There are lots of other ways to represent a series aside from a playable character. I mean technically Mario has only four characters, but Yoshi is a mainstay within the Super Mario series, and Wario has made two appearances within the platformers (as well as always appearing in the spinoffs). Mario had a boss character, three Assist Trophies (far more than any other series), and six stages. Not to mention some new items (like hothead and the lightning bolt).

As others in this thread have mentioned, there are other ways to represent a game aside from giving it a playable character. Heck, just up until a few days ago, people will jumping up and down that Pokemon HAD to have a new character due to how successful Black/White were and the fact they even received true sequels unlike other gens. Now that Generation 6 could be coming along, those same people are shoving Black/White down the memory hole in terms of a playable character.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

I'm not dude. I've already said, he could cut 50% or more of the roster and I'd be OK with it as long as the gameplay is solid. In fact a smaller roster usually means the current cast gets new moves, new buff, and the like, which is also very exciting to see.

Check the Roster I just posted. It's very cut happy.

I mostly cut out the guests and redundant characters under that assumption that the WHOLE cast gets new moves and buffs.

Well your roster I have no problems with as far as cuts, since it's just the guests and redundant characters that were cut, but when one cuts someone as unique as Mewtwo (only thing he's got in common with Lucario is the similar B special), it just doesn't sit right with me, and that's putting my fandom of him aside.

Anyhoo, if they really do go through with character DLCs, then I can see cuts (of any characters) being more justified too.

Just because you can give characters buffs, doesn't automatically mean improvements. For example, Bowser and Zelda in Super Smash Bros. Brawl who despite got buffs are still very mediocre in general. Zelda in particular actually fairs worse in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

To be fair there's more ways to give buffs to Mewtwo than to either of the others you/we mentioned. Make his speed more identical to his speed stat in the Pokemon metagame and he would already be much faster than any of the other playable Pokemon (how faster he should be than them for balancing reasons is debatable of course). Make his in-game weight more identical to his actual weight (269 pounds) and he's no longer a lightweight. Give him moves he can learn in gen 4 or 5 like Psycho Cut and there goes the range problem he had with physical moves in Melee. etc, etc.

And to Bowser's and Zelda's credit, a decent Bowser/Zelda user in Brawl can at least give me a tough time depending on the situation, which is a lot more than I can say for Melee Bowser.

She did. Her side Airs became lethal with added range and power. Plus a bit of a delay effect on impact that screams YOU JUST GOT HIT. It could kill you at 80-90%, from mid-stage.

Problem was she couldn't make good use of them because everything else about her still sucked. Except her Fireballs, those got an upgrade as well with added hitbox.

What I hate is how Zelda's Den's Fire (or fireball) makes it too easy for her to break a smash ball to perform a final smash compared to other characters. She could be anywhere and break it. I remember plenty times where a friend of mine whose a great Zelda user would just break the smash ball with Den's Fire while me and others were fighting over the ball in the air, then she would quickly kill us all with the Light Arrow by the time we landed. xd

I mostly played with no items though but when I did have the smash ball turned on, that got annoying.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Technically Pokémon has six playable characters already.

I counted PT as 1, since all 3 make up the character. But either way, 4 or 6 reps plus pokeballs, Requaza boss, and the pokemon that appear in Pokemon Stadium 2 is all of representaton for this series and a lot of people take it for granted.

 

[---]

Personally I think the reason why Zoroark didn't become the face of 5th gen is because Lucario fans and Smash fans who are against cutting were fear mongering people into not supporting Zoroark because they saw Zoroark as a potential threat of taking Lucario's slot on the roster.

Old, but I really want to respond to this. Smash the epicenter of Pokemon fandom? That's ridiculous (this is the only point I'm trying to direct solely at you).

Zoroark didn't pull off what Lucario did for multiple reasons. It's movie wasn't as well received, Zorua, N, and especially Reshiram/Zekrom always got the bigger focus, never appeared in any other notable major form of Pokemon media (has yet to appear in both the anime and manga) outside of an event and some appearances associated with N.

Lucario's movie was well received with praise for it's character, the movie also has gotten some mentions in the anime, often being used for character development. It's had multiple appearances in all forms of Pokemon media with important, never minor, roles (major example right now would be the current Pokemon League). Several games have singled it out, Mystery Dungeon 1, Ranger SoA and especially Smash. It's been compared to Mewtwo in the past (in positive ways, besides the Brawl cuts). It's not Pikachu/Charizard/Mewtwo or even Jigglypuff yet, but it's one of the few, if not only non-legendary Pokemon to stand out in recent years that also doesn't relate to the first Gen in any major way (here's looking at Pichu/Togepi).

tldr: Lucario has better character.

Spoiler

Sorry if I got a bit emotional, and forgive me if this causes any of the standard ugliness of a Pokemon discussion.

My bad i meant 3DS. I don't know how expansive the 3DS is

I remember reading somewhere a list of 3DS games by game space, Uprising wasn't the top game (I think it was Ocarina 3D), so I'd think there would be plenty of space.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Just because Pokemon has more playable characters does not mean, Mario is being neglected. There are lots of other ways to represent a series aside from a playable character. I mean technically Mario has only four characters, but Yoshi is a mainstay within the Super Mario series, and Wario has made two appearances within the platformers (as well as always appearing in the spinoffs). Mario had a boss character, three Assist Trophies (far more than any other series), and six stages. Not to mention some new items (like hothead and the lightning bolt).

As others in this thread have mentioned, there are other ways to represent a game aside from giving it a playable character. Heck, just up until a few days ago, people will jumping up and down that Pokemon HAD to have a new character due to how successful Black/White were and the fact they even received true sequels unlike other gens. Now that Generation 6 could be coming along, those same people are shoving Black/White down the memory hole in terms of a playable character.

I wasn't saying Mario is being neglected, I was saying Pokemon have the biggest series representation in the game. Even if you tried to group Yoshi, Wario and DK apart of the Mario franchise (Even though they are represented and found success under thier own franchises) AND add the 3 assist trophies and Petey the Piranha Plant it still isn't more than the Pokemon rep.

''There are lots of other ways to represent a series aside from a playable character.'' I think you just said what I've been telling you, there are other ways to represent the Pokemon franchise other than adding more playable characters from 4th 5th 6th or whatever gen.

 

[ChronoBound]

I wasn't saying Mario is being neglected, I was saying Pokemon have the biggest series representation in the game. Even if you tried to group Yoshi, Wario and DK apart of the Mario franchise (Even though they are represented under thier franchises) AND add the 3 assist trophies and Petey the Piranha Plant it still isn't more than the Pokemon rep.

''There are lots of other ways to represent a series aside from a playable character.'' I think you just said what I've been telling you, there are other ways to represent the Pokemon franchise other than add more playable characters.

Also, all the items and stages the Mario franchise has (Mario has six in Brawl, while Zelda, Metroid, DK, and Pokemon have three).

Also, your point about how "there are other ways to represent the franchise" is what I have been saying all along. All of the Pokemon already in Brawl are all iconic characters, and Mewtwo as a character is iconic and popular. I think Generation 5/6 don't need a playable character to be represented, much like how Generation 2 almost did not get one, and Generation 3 did not, but they still all received content within Smash Bros. in the form of songs, trophies, and Pokeball Pokemon.

I think you are misinterpreting me as being personally in favor of a Pokemon newcomer aside from Mewtwo. Personally, I would just have the playable representation be Brawl's Pokemon plus Mewtwo. However, keep in mind that Game Freak has a lot of control over Pokemon content in Smash Bros., so a Pokemon newcomer aside from Mewtwo could happen regardless of fan demand for one.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Mewtwo doesn't need any severe overhaul to his move set in general, but he needs the moves he has improved. One emphasis I actually thought was a neat idea was his potent throws, so to emphasis that would to improve the range and speed of his grab since the throws themselves are quite potent. Also in general slight boosts in speed for both movement and attacks, and range increases for some of his finishing moves and Disable.

However, being heavy is not necessary. Mewtwo already has a very effective time recovering from punishment, so for balance sake it's not needed.

 

[nessokman]

Here is my rooster-

Villains-
Masked man (i'm a sucker for the mother franchise <3)
bowser JR. (interesting idea.....)
dark pit (everyone loves him)

Heros-
Toon Zelda
Geno

 

[3Bismyname]

Here is my rooster-

Villains-
Masked man (i'm a sucker for the mother franchise <3)
bowser JR. (interesting idea.....)
dark pit (everyone loves him)

Heros-
Toon Zelda
Geno

is that it?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Well that's his rooster apparently, but I do admit that Dark Pit is a fine breed of chicken in particular.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

My choices:

Villains

-Bowser Jr
-Ghirahim
-Captain Syrup (in the female category too)
-King K. Rool

Heroes (Females)

-Micaiah
-Krystal
-Palutena
-Impa

Heroes (Males)

-Isa Jo
-Matthew
-Chrom
-Little Mac
-Shulk
-2nd Gen Trainer Gold

Other

-Zoroark
-Ray Mk3

3rd Party

-Mega-Man
-Travis Touchdown

Ok, that my list. Waiting for what others would have to say.

Just making "snow" angels

 

[Deleted member]

Here's my rooster.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Here's my rooster.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

What is its name?

 

[FlareHabanero]

What is its name?

His name is Pit.

 

[3Bismyname]

My choices:

Villains

-Bowser Jr
-Ghirahim
-Captain Syrup (in the female category too)
-King K. Rool

Heroes (Females)

-Micaiah
-Krystal
-Palutena
-Impa

Heroes (Males)

-Isa Jo
-Matthew
-Chrom
-Little Mac
-Shulk
-2nd Gen Trainer Gold

Other

-Zoroark
-Ray Mk3

3rd Party

-Mega-Man
-Travis Touchdown

Ok, that my list. Waiting for what others would have to say.

Just making "snow" angels

y separate the characters by gender? besides that its mostly stuff i personally wouldnt choose but i can understand the choice. except Ray MK3, Micaiah, Travis and Ghirahim. i find all of those very unlikely

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

y separate the characters by gender? besides that its mostly stuff i personally wouldnt choose but i can understand the choice. except Ray MK3, Micaiah, Captain Syrup, Travis and Ghirahim. i find all of those very unlikely

And why is that?

I think they all have fairly good to decently great chances. Well, besides Ray Mk3, K. Rool, Krystal, and maybe Captain Syrup.

 

[Deleted member]

His name is Pit.

No, his name is Bastion.

 

[3Bismyname]

And why is that?

I think they all have fairly good to decently great chances. Well, besides Ray Mk3 and maybe Captain Syrup.

we've gone over Micaiah, and Travis a lot so i wont even touch on those 2.

Girahim is a one shot character. while popular and relevant now, by the time Smash 4 comes he will be old news and his importance to the overall series is miniscule at best. just think of characters like Vaati or Midna pre brawl. they had relatively the same amount of popularity as Ghirahim has now but in the end were not implemented in any form into Brawl. this can be attributed to the fact that overall they just arent that important.

you just gotta ask yourself, "How important is Ghirahim to the LoZ franchise and does he accurately represent the series?" in the grand scheme of things, not really. he's a one shot villain who wasnt even the main villain in the end.

 

[Gamingboy]

Something I forgot to post last night during the Pokemon discussions when somebody said none of the generations were good:

 

[FlareHabanero]

Correction, gen 1 and gen 2 were not any good. The people that say otherwise should really take off those nostalgia goggles.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Also, all the items and stages the Mario franchise has (Mario has six in Brawl, while Zelda, Metroid, DK, and Pokemon have three).

Also, your point about how "there are other ways to represent the franchise" is what I have been saying all along. All of the Pokemon already in Brawl are all iconic characters, and Mewtwo as a character is iconic and popular. I think Generation 5/6 don't need a playable character to be represented, much like how Generation 2 almost did not get one, and Generation 3 did not, but they still all received content within Smash Bros. in the form of songs, trophies, and Pokeball Pokemon.

I think you are misinterpreting me as being personally in favor of a Pokemon newcomer aside from Mewtwo. Personally, I would just have the playable representation be Brawl's Pokemon plus Mewtwo. However, keep in mind that Game Freak has a lot of control over Pokemon content in Smash Bros., so a Pokemon newcomer aside from Mewtwo could happen regardless of fan demand for one.

Pokemon have 4 to 6 playable reps, depending if you want to break up PT) I think about 31 pokeball reps, 3 stages (2 of which includes even more pokemon representation in the background) and a Boss. I'm sorry that still doesn't add up to be more.

Now I confused...
Before you were saying Sakurai will add 6 slots for pokemon if he "has too", and now it turns out you've been saying/typing what I have been saying/typing this whole time!?

I could of sworn a couple posts back you said something along the lines that there is a fewer amount of high priority characters and pokemon could of easily be given 2 more playable reps. Or something like that.

Maybe I've up for too long your blowing my mind bruh

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Correction, gen 1 and gen 2 were not any good. The people that say otherwise should really take off those nostalgia goggles.

Spoiler

I'll agree w/ you on the 1st gen, at least in that it's very flawed and overrated, but IMO the 2nd gen was where things started to improve a whole bunch.