Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Big-Cat]

Dragon Sniper, before I head out, let me tell you this. Representation is nothing more than a bad interpretation. This is not a Nintendo Congress. It is a game first and foremost.

 

[Deleted member]

@Manly
attacks have weight to them so you feel great landing an attack (unlike Brawl),

This, so much this. The Falcon Punch is a great example. Back in 64 and Melee, it was SO satisfying to land one simply because of how it felt to do so, then Brawl comes along with its nerfed Falcon, and no longer is it any fun to use the Capt. Forget competitively, he was boring even casually.

Another example is in BlazBlue. I'm really excited for Chrono Phantasma, mostly out of mechanics alone, all of the attacks seem to have been given extra weight. You can just HEAR the impact each attack gives (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEQd7TCY3D0).

There is a lot to be said about the satisfaction one gets from feeling the power behind heavy hits.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Dragon Sniper, before I head out, let me tell you this. Representation is nothing more than a bad interpretation. This is not a Nintendo Congress. It is a game first and foremost.

Yes, but a game for Nintendo franchises (which quite a bit are still missing).

Of which there has been a lot going on during the Wii and DS generation alone to try and "play it safe".

From the likes of a 2nd Gen Pokemon Remake, 5th Gen Pokemon, and the new franchises such as EBA/Ouendan and Captain Rainbow to the return of Sin & Punishment and Punchout and the new game Xenoblade.

 

[Dark Phazon]

This is yet another example of why conservative rosters are too boring and predictable. They are nothing more than generic Brawl expansion rosters. Sure, all the commonly requested ones are there but I don't see anyone out from the left field. Sakurai put in some characters who were less popular and omitted some of the popular ones in Melee and Brawl. In Melee before Sakurai stuffed it with clones, he purposefully added four popular choices because of the poll (Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, Marth) and four less popular choices because they offered unique gameplay experiences in spite of getting so few votes on the poll (Zelda/Sheik, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch). He did the same thing in Brawl... less popular choices who offered unique gameplay experiences (Zero Suit Samus, Pokemon Trainer, Olimar, R.O.B.).

Sakurai is not going to put in the popularly requested characters only and ignore the rest in SSB4. I do not see why Sakurai would suddenly decide change the way he builds a Smash roster to please anyone who spouts about popular votes and fear mongering about hurting sales and even more fear mongering about possible backlash over adding certain characters or cutting anyone. It's almost like people were so butthurt about Brawl's roster that they are playing it safe, maybe a little too safe, about speculating SSB4's roster in order to protect their butts from getting hurt. It will always hurt at first but it will eventually feel good. It is impossible to make a Smash roster without pissing off fans. I think I can easily foresee that most of us fans will go through the five stages of grief on the Internet again when SSB4's final roster is leaked...

Denial: "No, no, X is not going to be cut because (staple of Smash/backlash)" "There is no way Y will stay out because fans want it to come back!" "Z is not going to get in because (backlash/poor sales/cannot fight)" "This leaked roster is totally fake because (aforementioned reasons)"

Anger: "Sakurai is stupid if he does this or that!" "The fans are stupid for supporting characters I hate/NOT supporting characters I love!" "Nintendo is stupid for not making games that would have made my characters relevant and thus worthy for Smash!" "You stupid troll! You are a liar! Mods, give him the banhammer!" "SAKURAIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!"

Bargaining: "I wouldn't mind cutting characters as long as they came back as DLC or costumes." "I will buy the game if X,Y,Z (or the whole alphabet) didn't get cut." "I hope X still gets in even if it's only as a last-minute clone or as a crappy character worse than Melee Mewtwo/Brawl Ganondorf, I just need to have X in the game!" "Maybe X getting cut wouldn't be so bad because they could just keep Y at best." "I wouldn't mind getting only five newcomers if it meant not cutting anyone at all." "If X got in but Y did not, I won't buy the game!"

Depression: "I hate that this is really happening to me..." "All the epic match-ups and team-ups scenarios I had in my head gone up in smoke." "It is so disheartening to know that the Male Patriarchy has won once again!" "I am going to kill myself because X is not in the game!" "Y missed his chance in SSB4 and now Y will never get in SSB5!"

Acceptance: "I guess it wasn't X's time just yet... maybe it will get in SSB5 when X gets more games!" "I hope they all come back in SSB5!" "I am hacking SSB4 to put in the characters I wanted!" "Wow! This is actually better than I thought!"

I see your point and its a good one but Were all just gonna sit there and think.

''Om** how the **** did X not get in.. he fitted the whole criteria thing perfectly! and then starts hating Z character because he/she got in and doesnt fit the criteria at all.

Sakurai's a weired guy he will do what he 'Likes' and thats the scrariest part about it..if theres a char he has in his mind and he feels challenged to try it and make it work for self satisfaction he will do it!

And all of us will just sit there with that same face with out jaw still to the ground thinking What the ****..!!!

What i will never understand about devs is although they MAKE the game.

Who is gonna be the ones that play it nearly everyday for the next year or so?

Ahh but who gives a ****!.. I guess we all know its just about the money..

My goal my stepline with this game my whole satisdfaction level stands by.

''I hope its better then Brawl''

I dont expect it to be better then Melee that would be beyond ******** to think that and just plain stupid!

But i just hope its better then brawl..thats all i can say..it needs to be better then Brawl to not be a disgrace. And imo thats a low goal to meet and should be accomplished with great ease but hey! Anythings possible i no that.

Soo..just hope its better then brawl...

 

[Arcadenik]

Melee was nothing more than a Smash 64 expansion, Brawl was, for the most part, a Melee expansion; so I'm not sure why expanding upon Brawl's roster is bad or surprising?

Most fan-made Brawl expansion rosters for SSB4 we see on the Internet are too homogeneous with only the commonly requested characters. Difference is, Sakurai's 64/Melee expansion rosters for Melee/Brawl were not conservative... especially considering he took some risks by adding some characters who didn't do very well on the polls or characters most of us believed wouldn't get in... and even omitted/cut some popularly requested characters. Most fans' SSB4 rosters are too conservative... so even though they claim they want everyone from Brawl to come back in SSB4, they are still butthurt over the Brawl roster (at least subconsciously). It is almost as if they begrudgingly want these characters to come back so to not conflict with their "anti-cut" stance... and then play it safe by adding only the characters that most people agree are very likely... it's easy to see why the number of newcomers looks a little too low compared to the first three games. Only eight brand-new characters? Come on now. There is a reason why Sakurai added 6 more characters (clones) after he added only 8 brand-new characters in Melee.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Most fan-made Brawl expansion rosters for SSB4 we see on the Internet are too homogeneous with only the commonly requested characters. Difference is, Sakurai's 64/Melee expansion rosters for Melee/Brawl were not conservative... especially considering he took some risks by adding some characters who didn't do very well on the polls or characters mosut of us believed wouldn't get in... and even omitted/cut some popularly requested characters. Most fans' SSB4 rosters are too conservative... so even though they claim they want everyone from Brawl to come back in SSB4, they are still butthurt over the Brawl roster (at least subconsciously). It is almost as if they begrudgingly want these characters to come back so to not conflict with their "anti-cut" stance... and then play it safe by adding only the characters that most people agree are very likely... it's easy to see why the number of newcomers looks a little too low compared to the first three games. Only eight brand-new characters? Come on now. There is a reason why Sakurai added 6 more characters (clones) after he added only 8 brand-new characters in Melee.

What were the 10 most requested brawl chars?

Seriously i cant find the Brawl Wishlist/character prediction thread in the brawl section please someone link me to it...

 

[Arcadenik]

As far as we know, Sonic was #1 on the Brawl poll. That's the only thing we know about the Brawl poll.

 

[Starphoenix]

Most fan-made Brawl expansion rosters for SSB4 we see on the Internet are too homogeneous with only the commonly requested characters. Difference is, Sakurai's 64/Melee expansion rosters for Melee/Brawl were not conservative... especially considering he took some risks by adding some characters who didn't do very well on the polls or characters most of us believed wouldn't get in... and even omitted/cut some popularly requested characters. Most fans' SSB4 rosters are too conservative... so even though they claim they want everyone from Brawl to come back in SSB4, they are still butthurt over the Brawl roster (at least subconsciously). It is almost as if they begrudgingly want these characters to come back so to not conflict with their "anti-cut" stance... and then play it safe by adding only the characters that most people agree are very likely... it's easy to see why the number of newcomers looks a little too low compared to the first three games. Only eight brand-new characters? Come on now. There is a reason why Sakurai added 6 more characters (clones) after he added only 8 brand-new characters in Melee.

The difference between then and now is that Sakurai had a wealth of characters to choose from. He could afford to pass over some characters because, well, he could get around to add them in the future. We don't have that option now.

The problem is that cutting characters does not mean we can suddenly have more characters, that is to assume there are, what, eight more characters worth adding. That is a fallacy built upon a presupposition. If you disregard most of the B-tier series like Golden Sun, Legendary Starfy, Sin and Punishment, as Sakurai pretty much did, that does not leave you with many series to pick from. Unless of course you want three Mario characters just so we call all say we have more, but I have a feeling a lot of people would not welcome that warmly. Most of the main line series have already been picked through, and what options exist most fans don't want since "that series is complete and does not deserve another character."

 

[Dark Phazon]

The difference between then and now is that Sakurai had a wealth of characters to choose from. He could afford to pass over some characters because, well, he could get around to add them in the future. We don't have that option now.

The problem is that cutting characters does not mean we can suddenly have more characters, that is to assume there are, what, eight more characters worth adding. That is a fallacy built upon a presupposition. If you disregard most of the B-tier series like Golden Sun, Legendary Starfy, Sin and Punishment, as Sakurai pretty much did, that does not leave you with many series to pick from. Unless of course you want three Mario characters just so we call all say we have more, but I have a feeling a lot people would not welcome that warmly. Most of the main line series have already been picked through, and what options exist most fans don't want since "that series is complete and does not deserve another character."

Exactly..and on top off that we got 2-3 Third parties..if anything if the rosters so small this time then most mostt of the chars that deserve to get in Should!

But its up to Sakurai our greatest idea could be his worse..

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

At the moment though, I might just say that all this boils for me as "Who knows?". I'm not going to put my money expecting "Casual-Liberal Brawl Expansion Roster" which we Nintendo-fanboys (hahah) see as absolutely conservative... on the other hand, we might be in the right way of what we MIGHT get as a roster. Still, this is all just based on our observations and hypothesis on all things we came up around here. (-l^l-);;;


Which is why I'm waiting to Sakurai to prove us either wrong, or right. At least we'll feel happy either way (WE CAN PREDICT THE NEXT ROSTER OR WAIT, MORE FAN-SERVICING, DIVERSE ROSTER ACTUALLY???!)

 

[yani]

So NoA is also hyping up January 8th for the Pokemon announcement. Wii-U game? Gen 6? Gen 3 remake? Yellow remake?

If Gen 6 is revealed this early, what would you guys think as far as Pokemon reps?

 

[FlareHabanero]

As a community of misfit fanboys and fangirls, we should all expect both the best and the worse case scenario. A fair share so that there isn't any disappointments.

 

[Moon Monkey]

What i think the Sm4sh Roster will be.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120327024815/ssb/images/2/26/Landmaster_wtf.jpg



My Realistic Speculation Roster:
Add ons from Brawl minus Lucario

Littlemac
Takamaru
Ridley
Dixxie/King K.Rool
Palutena
Zoroark/Victini/Genesect/Melotta/6th Gen
New Fire Emblem Rep
Megaman
Samurai Goroh

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a Question:

When all you guys are doing these lists are you doing em as Brawl Add ons? (No one being cut/replaced)
or you just simply stating who you think the Newcomers will be Reguardless if any Brawl chars gets cut/replaced

Seriously? Namco is gonna help out the development of SSB4 and your not gonna mention Pacman???

 

[Arcadenik]

Seriously? Namco is gonna help out the development of SSB4 and your not gonna mention Pacman???

Because the popular opinion around here is that Pac-Man is boring compared to characters from actual fighting games (Tekken, Soul Calibur, plus Lloyd).

 

[Diddy Kong]

If Generation 6 gets announced it's nearly impossible not to have Gen 6 content in Smash 4. Though, a Gen 5 rep will be less likely, as well as Mewtwo's chances. But thb, I don't care about Pokemon anymore. Just give me Mewtwo, and I'm good.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I dunno if I'd be now ready for Gen 6th- the expansion for Gen 5th was just released few months ago and them bombarding us with Gen 6 doesn't really leave me enjoying it without trying to catch up (I hadn't bought Black or White, just saying).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Neither did I. But maybe, MAYBEE they'll try to make an actual proper sequel to Stadium for once? Or a mix between Stadium and Colloseum / XD?

 

[Arcadenik]

I didn't bother getting 4th gen and 5th gen games. I don't see myself getting 6th gen games either. I don't really have much time to invest in collecting and training 600+ (soon to be 700+) Pokemon like I used to.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Even with a possible 6th Gen coming, I don't see them glancing over the 2nd Gen Remakes and the 5th Gen just to rep it. If anything, all 3 would get repedp or Gen 6 just won't.

 

[Arcadenik]

I can see Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer Gold, and Zoroark getting in SSB4. If there is one Pokemon character who is iconic but also out from the left field, it would arguably be Meowth (or Team Rocket).

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

I can see Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer Gold, and Zoroark getting in SSB4. If there is one Pokemon character who is iconic but also out from the left field, it would arguably be Meowth (or Team Rocket).

If Mario and Zelda get 5 characters (like Bowser Jr and Ghirahim), then Pokemon would have to as well.

We only need one trainer, so kick out Red and give us Gold. Zoroark is basically the next Lucario, so he is replaced. That leaves us with one spot. This spot could very well be used for a 6th Gen, another 5th Gen, another 2nd Gen, a possible 3rd Gen because of that eventual remake, or Mewtwo (to rep side games, like Conquest).

Most likely it would be 6th but I am not sure yet.

 

[Starphoenix]

If Generation 6 gets announced it's nearly impossible not to have Gen 6 content in Smash 4. Though, a Gen 5 rep will be less likely, as well as Mewtwo's chances. But thb, I don't care about Pokemon anymore. Just give me Mewtwo, and I'm good.

Content is one thing, a character is something else entirely. A Gen 6 does not automatically confirm that some random Pokémon from the series will be playable. It does not work that way.

 

[Arcadenik]

Content is one thing, a character is something else entirely. A Gen 6 does not automatically confirm that some random Pokémon from the series will be playable. It does not work that way.

This. I don't think Sakurai would have time to put resources into adding a 6th gen Pokemon character right away when he's probably busy working on the veterans who are returning and the newcomers who are coming at this very moment. Especially not for a nobody... At least Sonic was a big deal that Sakurai stopped working on the Forbidden Seven to work with him.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The whole Gen 6 thing would be a severe case of expectation over enjoyment in general, which in itself is going to cause problems.

 

[Deleted member]

This. I don't think Sakurai would have time to put resources into adding a 6th gen Pokemon character right away when he's probably busy working on the veterans who are returning and the newcomers who are coming at this very moment. Especially not for a nobody... At least Sonic was a big deal that Sakurai stopped working on the Forbidden Seven to work with him.

That would be assuming that he's hearing of this new Pokemon at the same time as us. However, considering the both work under the same company, I doubt this is the case.

Also, did Sakurai really drop the forbidden seven to work on Sonic? First I've heard of it, but it makes sense.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Because the popular opinion around here is that Pac-Man is boring compared to characters from actual fighting games (Tekken, Soul Calibur, plus Lloyd).

Last time I checked neither Mr.G&W, R.O.B Pit or Ice Climbers were highly requested amongst fans upon the installments they debuted in. So to exclude a character based on the fact that they aren't popular' on this ONE site is a bit silly, seeing how characters from all spectrums (popular to unwanted) have been added to the roster .

Pacman not only has cameos in past Nintendo games, but also has 3 platforming games where moves and abilities can be pulled from.

 

[Aipom]

That would be assuming that he's hearing of this new Pokemon at the same time as us. However, considering the both work under the same company, I doubt this is the case.

Also, did Sakurai really drop the forbidden seven to work on Sonic? First I've heard of it, but it makes sense.

If that's true, I'd be pretty upset. I'd rather have 7 clone-ish (possibly) characters than Sonic. In fact, I'd rather have basically any Nintendo character instead of Sonic (but in terms of third party, he's basically top of the list)

 

[FlareHabanero]

Padding would of been a very bad idea in general after the criticism regarding Melee's clone problem. Besides, 18 characters was enough.

 

[shrooby]

Also, did Sakurai really drop the forbidden seven to work on Sonic? First I've heard of it, but it makes sense.

It's a reasonable conclusion, but he's never said anything of that nature. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

Neither did I. But maybe, MAYBEE they'll try to make an actual proper sequel to Stadium for once? Or a mix between Stadium and Colloseum / XD?

As amazing as that would be, it isn't likely. Gamefreak doesn't go out of their way to announce spin-offs because they don't develop them. The only spin-off that they actually did something out of the ordinary to announce was PokePark2, and that's because Gamefreak themselves makes that series. It's rather sad though since I'd really like to see the games you mentioned.

 

[yani]

However, considering the both work under the same company, I doubt this is the case.

This. While a Gen 6 reveal doesn't guarantee a 6th gen Pokemon, it certainly increases the chances of it. It's very likely GameFreak has their poster child for Gen 6 (again, assuming this is a Gen 6 reveal), but we'll see.

 

[N3ON]

I don't know why some people seem to think Sakurai would be finding out about a 6th gen character the same time we would. He'd know months before the public.

As for Sonic, it's no guarantee that we would've gotten all seven of the Forbidden 7 if he wasn't included, but considering one unique character (King Dedede) was apparently equal to five clones characters in Melee, it stands to reason we would've gotten several of the seven (definitely Mewtwo).

But just because Sonic was added and it disrupted the planned characters, doesn't mean without him we still would've received all seven. Especially since Dixie was just added to be a tag character with Diddy.

 

[Deleted member]

If anything, after Wolf, the only ones left would be the Melee vets; Mewtwo, Roy, and Doc.

Unless Toon Zelda was a big deal, in which case, Toon Zelda and "Toon Sheik" would be before them.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know why people seem to think Sakurai would be finding out about a 6th gen character the same time we would. He'd know months before the public.

As for Sonic, it's no guarantee that we would've gotten all seven of the Forbidden 7 if he wasn't included, but considering one unique character (King Dedede) was apparently equal to five clones characters in Melee, it stands to reason we would've gotten several of the seven (definitely Mewtwo).

But just because Sonic was added and it disrupted the planned characters, doesn't mean without him we still would've received all seven. Especially since Dixie was just added to be a tag character with Diddy.

If it's true, it certainly is a shame that we missed out on Diddy+Dixie Duo, and Mewtwo for Sonic. But it really does indeed make sense. Sonic being a last minute addition and all, and his rather meshed together Lackluster moveset and apparent last minute addition in the Subspace.

Perhaps it is a sign of changes to come for Smash 4. If Sonic gets back in he'll have been worked on for more time and have a better move set, and perhaps it could also mean that Diddy+Dixie have a better chance of being a duo, as us getting Diddy solo attributes mostly to time constraints, and not to a design choice that was thrown out.

Anyway, what are the chances of Smash 4 being a reboot? How do you think this would affect the roster and the game's mechanics. If it was a reboot, what sort of Roster would you expect in regard to cuts and additions.

This I feel is more likely in Smash 5 if anything, I don't see Smash 4 as a reboot, but I am interested in hearing opinions and rosters. I might work on a reboot roster myself actually.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I still want to know if Toon Sheik was literally going to be exactly what it says, or if it was a codename for Tetra. I would go with the latter since it makes sense in context that the toon variant of Zelda would turn into Tetra, but at the same time it might not exactly be like that.

@Manly
Diddy and Dixie didn't happen because of technical problems, not time constraints.

 

[Deleted member]

Never mind this post. I misread.

 

[Deleted member]

I still want to know if Toon Sheik was literally going to be exactly what it says, or if it was a codename for Tetra. I would go with the latter since it makes sense in context that the toon variant of Zelda would turn into Tetra, but at the same time it might not exactly be like that.

I think it'd be neat if Smash Bros made its own interpretations for characters that don't exist. Like SS Ganondorf, who could be bulky like Demise, but still have that Dio Brando-esque cynicism he had in Melee.

I mean, they took the OoT artwork to make Gamecube Era representations of the characters, and they rebooted Pit completely and created what eventually became his canon appearance, likewise for Palutena, so it's not too far a stretch really.

EDIT:
On Diddy+Dixie,

Really? Is there anything pointing to this? What exactly was difficult about making the Duo?

 

[3Bismyname]

i always figured the Diddy Dixie thing didnt happen cause Diddy was too big a deal to simply be one half of a full character. or u know that he could really stand on his own

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT:
On Diddy+Dixie,

Really? Is there anything pointing to this? What exactly was difficult about making the Duo?

He didn't exactly say WHAT the problems were; just that there were problems.
He mentions this in an older issue of Famitsu.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=144627&
Judging by the Japanese text, they supposedly were to switch off attacks. I can see how that might be difficult to implement.

 

[N3ON]

If it's true, it certainly is a shame that we missed out on Diddy+Dixie Duo, and Mewtwo for Sonic. But it really does indeed make sense. Sonic being a last minute addition and all, and his rather meshed together Lackluster moveset and apparent last minute addition in the Subspace.

Perhaps it is a sign of changes to come for Smash 4. If Sonic gets back in he'll have been worked on for more time and have a better move set, and perhaps it could also mean that Diddy+Dixie have a better chance of being a duo, as us getting Diddy solo attributes mostly to time constraints, and not to a design choice that was thrown out.

His "lackluster" moveset was a result of Sega, not Sakurai. It's how they wanted him to be implemented, and chances are with the exception of tweaking, he'll have pretty much the same moveset in SSB4.

Like Habanero said, Dixie's exclusion was due to technical aspects, not time constraints. Anyway, at this point I highly doubt Dixie will be tacked on to Diddy. I'm guessing she'll be her own character or nothing.

Anyway, what are the chances of Smash 4 being a reboot? How do you think this would affect the roster and the game's mechanics. If it was a reboot, what sort of Roster would you expect in regard to cuts and additions.

In my opinion, I think chances of SSB4 being a reboot are very low. I think this game will follow the standard set by the past games: a good amount of new characters (though getting as many newcomers as Brawl did is fairly unrealistic), minimal cuts (if any), with the addition and expansion of a few modes. Eventually Smash is going to have to change itself up though, so I could very easily see SSB5 being a reboot or a re-imagining.

I don't think it's all too likely, but I think the 3DS version having a more limited roster and focusing on other aspects would be a good way to ease people into any future major roster overhauls, but personally I think the two rosters are going to be very similar, if not the same.

I just can't see SSB4 being a full reboot at all. If Smash 4 was to have elements of a reboot, I think they would sort of be transitional, acting as perhaps a half way point between the normal expansion Smash games go through and an overhaul future Smash games might experience. If that was the case (which I still doubt) then I could see 1/3 of the roster getting the boot. Truthfully though, the majority of existing characters are much more well-known, iconic, important, and popular than most potential additions, so really (with only a few exceptions) most characters on the roster are more warranted than newcomers would be. Sakurai also knows how harshly cuts are received, so, for this game, I very much doubt we will see more than a handful.

My guess is if/when we get a reboot of the series, it will probably be made clear pretty soon after the game is announced. Or at least it will be hinted at.

I still want to know if Toon Sheik was literally going to be exactly what it says, or if it was a codename for Tetra. I would go with the latter since it makes sense in context that the toon variant of Zelda would turn into Tetra, but at the same time it might not exactly be like that.

Chances are we'll never know. Even if Toon Zelda gets implemented in the future and she has a transformation, it won't necessarily mean it was to be the same transformation she would've had in Brawl. In my opinion though, Toon Sheik would've been dumb, I would've preferred Tetra. I'm generally against unique-to-Smash playable characters, even if based on existing ones.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I could see Dixie Kong being reworked in the next game to be independent akin to Diddy Kong. After all, developers do look back on ideas and try to rework them in new installments.