Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[MagnesD3]

That would be a great, if not, way of throwing a bone to all MOTHER fans. Though, we shouldn't take a mere remake too seriously.

PORKY i mean is a main continuous villain

 

[Big-Cat]

That would be a great, if not, way of throwing a bone to all MOTHER fans. Though, we shouldn't take a mere remake too seriously.

I'd rather Kumatora.

Personally, I think this MOTHER reworking will either be compilated rerelease with some modifications for copyright reasons or it may be a collection of all games being remade. I'd love to play them in 3D graphics.

And I think, this time, Nintendo will release it. Either that, or Starmen.net will pull something off bigger than Operation Rainfall and some will join just out of pure sympathy.

 

[ChronoBound]

I'd rather Kumatora.

Personally, I think this MOTHER reworking will either be compilated rerelease with some modifications for copyright reasons or it may be a collection of all games being remade. I'd love to play them in 3D graphics.

And I think, this time, Nintendo will release it. Either that, or Starmen.net will pull something off bigger than Operation Rainfall and some will join just out of pure sympathy.

I think Itoi, Iwata, and Reggie are all aware of the cult following the Mother series has outside Japan. I think there will be an international release for Itoi's latest Mother project, but its success outside Japan, will determine whether the rest of the series (assuming Itoi's project is a remake of Mother 1) will be brought over as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Its just thet you usually have a lot of bad opinions and beliefs about a multitude of things.

Says the guy who proudly calls himself a 'fujoshi' yet claims to know Japanese.
http://worldcosplay.net/member/Snakey/
http://snakeyhoho.deviantart.com/

I think this is the part where I officially ignore everything you say from now on. You like to flaunt your NeoGAF reputation all over the place, yet have little credibility. You yourself need to get off your high-horse and stop clamoring for attention so much. Honestly, it's rather annoying.

 

[ChronoBound]

Says the guy who proudly calls himself a 'fujoshi' yet claims to know Japanese.
http://worldcosplay.net/member/Snakey/
http://snakeyhoho.deviantart.com/

I think this is the part where I officially ignore everything you say from now on. You like to flaunt your NeoGAF reputation all over the place, yet have little credibility. You yourself need to get off your high-horse and stop clamoring for attention so much. Honestly, it's rather annoying.

I don't have a deviantart account or worldcosplay account. The only two places I use the Snakey name is NeoGAF and GameFAQs. That you would spout off false accusations against others truly shows how lowly of a poster you are, and how obnoxious your attitude is, and how much vitriol exists within yourself.. The only three places I currently post at are SmashBoards, GameFAQs, and NeoGAF.

I have been with the Smash Bros. community since the beginning, my reputation has been well earned.

 

[N3ON]

I agree, I'm sure you'll find Rule 34 on even the MOST obscure characters, that haven't even been sexualized in their cannon media, and have made a brief cameo if you look hard enough. In fact, I can vouch for this as a draw***, I've seen some of the most obscure requests on fanart for characters. The fact that Samus is female is enough for her to be seen as a sexual figure on the internet. The reason we didn't see it prior to 2006 is because the mematic nature of the internet really didn't explode until around 2007-2008 when 4chan memes and stuff started going mainstream. I'm sure there was some subculture (hell, 4chan was made in 2006 is I'm not wrong, and prior to places like Newgrounds and the like took its place).

It's naive to think that there was absolutely no porn of samus previous to Zero Mission, Brawl, and the creation of those "rules", the internet is still the internet, and porn very often stands devoid of memes. If a character is attractive, chances are there will be porn of it, stupid list of internet rules or not. However, Brawl was the one to open up the floodgates and change how a lot of people viewed Samus, which is a shame. And Other M certainly didn't help. Rule 34 really only affected characters that no one would want to see porn of, yet some people feel the need to abide by the rules and create porn anyway. Attractive characters will have porn made of them one way or another, rules or no rules.

Also, the internet has always had a memetic nature that started much before 2006. Memes also went mainstream much before then as well or we wouldn't have had that damn dancing baby on Ally McBeal, the Hamster Dance released as an official single, or All Your Base conquering the internet and receiving widespread coverage.

 

[Deleted member]

It's naive to think that there was absolutely no porn of samus previous to Zero Mission, Brawl, and the creation of those "rules", the internet is still the internet, and porn very often stands devoid of memes. If a character is attractive, chances are there will be porn of it, stupid list of internet rules or not. However, Brawl was the one to open up the floodgates and change how a lot of people viewed Samus, which is a shame. And Other M certainly didn't help. Rule 34 really only affected characters that no one would want to see porn of, yet some people feel the need to abide by the rules and create porn anyway. Attractive characters will have porn made of them one way or another, rules or no rules.

Also, the internet has always had a memetic nature that started much before 2006. Memes also went mainstream much before then as well or we wouldn't have had that damn dancing baby on Ally McBeal, the Hamster Dance released as an official single, or All Your Base conquering the internet and receiving widespread coverage.

Granted, but I think if we compare the amount of ZSSamus fanart prior to the creation of the rules and after I'm sure we can see a large spike. Not sure what set it off honestly. I never ventured into the newgrounds forums, and I started visiting 4chan in 2008-09 so, there's that. I agree with the mematic nature of the internet prior to all those events, but it wasn't until 2006ish that it REALLY started to pick up, so much so that it was recognized by South Park, and bands like Weezer and the like.

I'm personally not sure what set it off, but something did.

EDIT: @Chrono

So you sure this isn't you?

Spoiler

You've certainly earned yourself quite a reputaion on the internet, I was surprised when I found this thread yesterday.
http://archive.foolz.us/v/thread/168032776/
I don't know any more Chronobounds on Smashboards that also go by Snakey on other boards.

Regardless of if it is or isn't. You still tend to spout a lot of stupid bull**** and ride on your high post count for credibility (which ironically is the main complain of that OP), so for that reason alone I'm still gonna ignore your stupid *** from now on.

 

[ChronoBound]

It's naive to think that there was absolutely no porn of samus previous to Zero Mission, Brawl, and the creation of those "rules", the internet is still the internet, and porn very often stands devoid of memes. If a character is attractive, chances are there will be porn of it, stupid list of internet rules or not. However, Brawl was the one to open up the floodgates and change how a lot of people viewed Samus, which is a shame. And Other M certainly didn't help.

I have been saying this all day. Hopefully now that you have said it will finally sink in a few people's heads.

You've certainly earned yourself quite a reputaion on the internet, I was surprised when I found this thread yesterday.
http://archive.foolz.us/v/thread/168032776/
I don't know any more Chronobounds on Smashboards that also go by Snakey on other boards.

Regardless of if it is or isn't. You still tend to spout a lot of stupid bull**** and ride on your high post count for credibility (which ironically is the main complain of that OP), so for that reason alone I'm still gonna ignore your stupid *** from now on.

That is definitely not me. Also, I don't give a damn what 4ch thinks about me. They are largely pedophiles for God's sake.

Also, why would someone who has barely any interest in games do cosplay?

I don't have a high post count for credibility. My credibility comes from how long I have been with the Smash Bros. community. My deep involvement with the Brawl's leaks was another major reason for why I am respected, as well, my essays on a variety of topics pertaining to Smash Bros.

Smash 4 is the only game I have any interest in on the coming horizon, and its the only video game related thing I ever discuss online. Heck, outside of Smash Bros., there is nothing else I discuss online, outside of social networking with family and friends I know irl.

 

[SmashChu]

First off, that 4chan tread was kind of pathetic. Who gives a crap about other people on the internet geez.

@ManlySpirit: Let's try and act mature, OK. There isn't a need to be bickering and especially gossiping on other forums because your upset with something he said.

BTW, I am also a 4chan user.

As an aside, I don't think anyone respects Chronobound because of his post count. He post good content and is one of the few people who gets Japanese info for us. Don't always agree, but it always welcomed.

 

[ChronoBound]

As an aside, I don't think anyone respects Chronobound because of his post count. He post good content and is one of the few people who gets Japanese info for us. Don't always agree, but it always welcomed.

I only started doing the Japanese info thing relatively recently (I started doing in 2011). I did it before in September 2007, however, there were only two sites I looked at for Japanese opinions then (2ch and a Japanese Smash Bros. wikia). The only two interesting things I learned then were how much they wanted Wolf and Wind Waker Link (they called him Cat Eyes Link over there).

The essays I have done in the past are probably a bigger reason for my positive reputation. Unfortunately, I lost all my pre-2007 stuff (though I did manage to find a printed document of my Smash Bros. DS stuff written in 2004).

 

[Scar86]

I know my opinion may not mean much. But I really don't see Samus as being all that sexualized. She isn't exactly flirtatious or talkative. She doesn't even come across as hard to get, just seems like detached professional. Sure she has a great figure, but so does

Zelda
Peach
Shiek

and Captain Falcon (If that's you're thing)

The truth is, ANY character that people want can be sexualized in some way. It's not like they redesigned Samus/Peach have unrealistically large breasts/hips or anything. (And I hope they never do)

All I want is the Elimination of Clone's, and Maybe Custom Characters.

 

[SmashChu]

I know my opinion may not mean much. But I really don't see Samus as being all that sexualized. She isn't exactly flirtatious or talkative. She doesn't even come across as hard to get, just seems like detached professional. Sure she has a great figure, but so does

Zelda
Peach
Shiek

and Captain Falcon (If that's you're thing)

The truth is, ANY character that people want can be sexualized in some way. It's not like they redesigned Samus/Peach have unrealistically large breasts/hips or anything. (And I hope they never do)

All I want is the Elimination of Clone's, and Maybe Custom Characters.

Basically, just because they are sexy doesn't mean they are sexualized. I think that's something a lot of people forget (even some of the talking head game journalist).

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Not like there was much character to respect in the first place, but Rule 34 was likely just as active back then as it is now. Just because it wasn't all over the place on the Internet doesn't mean it didn't exist. The funny thing is, she's showing MORE skin now than she did in the previous games. If anything, people are more drawn by her figure in terms of attractiveness (dem legs!).

Of course, my point though is that it's more publicly shown around now, opposed to being limited to endings, game over since Super Metroid, and mostly other media. But it wasn't a heavy gameplay element ever before until Zero Mission. And after Brawl, people just took it on and made it more important than what she used to before. It's something that's kinda degrading the impression what she was used to give before Zero Mission (Badass heroine> womanly attraction )

They didn't really hide her gender or anything in Super Metroid. You died, you found out she was a girl. At one point in development, she was to have a death scream but it sounded too suggestive. Heck, the Japanese Super Metroid commercial didn't hide it in the slightest.

They didn't, but they didn't also use it so blatantly around. The amount of Samus being shown as her real self was pretty limited. Game Overs or the commercials (and I suppose mangas) were just the only instances aside from the endings, and if one wanted to see it detailed, then you had to go play the game faster. Zero Mission broke this tradition, which was kinda against the tradition on this, and Brawl then took it and made it worse. (Compared to Melee which had a scrapped trophy of helmetless Samus)

Due this it was then pointless to keep her and the fellas started to take in the way of using Zero Suit again in Other M. It was like they didn't feel like foster her real self any more well about and went with how most people view her like today. Which pretty much ruined her to me along with how Other M portrayed her mostly as. Much like Chrono said, Retro Studios didn't portray her though with the Zero Suit until the ending, which shows that they tried to keep on with the tradition.

And again, she didn't have much character going on until at least Fusion, and there was next to none of it in the Prime trilogy.

And if you ask me, her incarnation in Other M was, by far, the most badass rendering of her. She showed several moments of weakness, but every time, she overcame her weaknesses in the end (though it was too late in one case) and showed how strong she was. If you don't think that's badass, then you're too used to Mary Sues.

I dunno really. The way the writing did it didn't handle it well enough at times to give me that impression. It wasn't well-done, really. Samus jumped too from stoic and robotic to emotional and whimpy.And then we're gonna be put through a set of linear missions where one has to authorize you so you can advance on is kinda wierd and at times, totally stupid. Not putting on a Varia Suit despite yourself getting roasted up or flailing around in a boss room instead of self-defending or trying to fight before you're told what weapon to use is IMO trying too much to gain someone's trust as it is implied in the game. And compared to her last outings... that just OOC. Who came with this? Oh right, Sakamoto. Yeah.

But if that makes me then too used to Mary Sues, then why didn't we have this kind of characterization of her right at the first game, actually? Why do we need to accept all of it now, despite the last games portraying her as anything than clinging and independent on his "daddy" figure, and not to mention just shove her obsession of being a mother around (Baby, Baby, Baby). Why we had been led to astray all this time to think that she had already got past most of her nasty past (losing parents, PTSD, and so on) instead of deconstructing all of that again, in a poor way even?

I dunno but the whole idea of deconstructing Samus was an attempt that went absolutely haywire. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think the whole idea shouldn't have even been executed Or you could just taken most of her weapons and make her work for them again so we didn't get to experience her depending side on Adam. It just didn't look right on this character we had always been intepreting as independent through her adventures, and she needed all that survive in her adventures. And then she's actually listening to some guy due her own reasons in, but goes too far in that, setting herself in danger What.

If we're forced though to accept her like that, then we'd be just been led to astray about her character all these years and her legend as one of the strongest heroines in videogaming would just be dead already.

And you know what? It still isn't a big part of Samus. It's not like we've ever seen official Nintendo Zero Suit Samus body pillows.

Of course it isn't. But people now seem to think it's even more important than Samus is, hence why I said they seem to care more about her looks rather than her character and the games. My overall point is not that Samus is overly sexualised, it is that portraying Samus with more added sex appeal (with skintight jumpsuit) so publicly compared to how it was kept in a minor light and mostly away from gameplay or her portrayal, has been a big factor on ruining what made her so pretty badass and rather mysterious at first place.

 

[N3ON]

I know my opinion may not mean much. But I really don't see Samus as being all that sexualized. She isn't exactly flirtatious or talkative. She doesn't even come across as hard to get, just seems like detached professional. Sure she has a great figure, but so does

Zelda
Peach
Shiek

and Captain Falcon (If that's you're thing)

The truth is, ANY character that people want can be sexualized in some way. It's not like they redesigned Samus/Peach have unrealistically large breasts/hips or anything. (And I hope they never do)

All I want is the Elimination of Clone's, and Maybe Custom Characters.

To be clear, I still don't think Samus is nearly as sexualized as other non-Nintendo female characters. Honestly, what has been used to sexualize Samus is relatively and comparatively tame. I agree, she's no Soulcalibur character or anything. However, I do think Nintendo has been focusing on a different aspect of her lately (her not in some variation of the Power Suit), which in turn is causing part of the fanbase to sexualize her much more than previously. It's true, Nintendo hasn't done any especially drastic sexualization, but like I said, if a character is attractive (which is an angle recent Samus appearances have played at a lot), a portion of the fanbase will take it upon themselves to take the slight increase in sexuality and multiply it substantially. Don't get me wrong, I'm not placing the blame solely on Nintendo.

And it's not just Samus this applies to, Peach and Zelda (and yes, even characters like Captain Falcon), are, by fans, victim of it too. Really most video game characters that can be seem by some as attractive do get hypersexualized by "fans", sort of like you said. It's that characters like Peach and Zelda are less sexualized than Samus in their games, which is why it might not be as prominent. If they also started running around in Zero Suits, I'd wager there would be just as much "fanart" of them.

I just wonder how much more Samus would've been sexualized by Team Ninja had they been given complete control of the character, given their past record of females in their games.

 

[Big-Cat]

Well, Itagaki, the big pervert in the group, had left well before Other M was announced. Team Ninja now seems like the kind of developer that is more than willing to respect the original works. It's like how the Virtua Fighter characters in DOA5 are more or less the same as before.

 

[Deleted member]

@YH
So what exactly are we complaining about here? I'm sure most people can agree that the worst thing to happen to Samus was Other M, but are we really complaining against her inclusion in Brawl? Since it was over Ridley of all things?

That's where I disagree. I wan't Ridley in too, but ZSSamus was a creative addition to the Smash Bros roster, and an over all decent character from a fighting point perspective. She's easily one of the more unique and difficult (to master) characters in Brawl, why anyone would be against her inclusion in Brawl is beyond me. Do you hate fun?

Either way, it doesn't matter. If that whiteboard image drawn by Sakurai's team can be used as a hint of the upcoming roster, you can bet she'll be back, so there's not much of a point in complaining.

Unless this is relating back to that Bayonetta topic from a couple pages back.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

It's the Bayonetta-topic. And mostly that we don't see Nintendo driving on using characters portrayed like her. And how it has IMO ruined Samus, which might factor even more on Nintendo not wanting to portray characters like this. After Other M Nintendo halted out making more Metroids until now. Partly might be because how people were angry on how Samus was portrayed. And I factor her increased exposure as her real self compared to her last games as the things that led the developers like Sakamoto to mess her up for people.

I don't really care about ZSS though if she makes it again, but I don't like her due how she overshadows the classic Samus to certain degree for people.

 

[Arcadenik]

I didn't like how regular Samus was in Melee and Brawl. I think Samus should be more agile like she was portrayed in Other M... and please swap out the Super Missiles for Ice Missiles if Fusion Suit Samus doesn't get in SSB4. Oh, and buff her Charge Shot and Screw Attack specials!

 

[Scar86]

Spoiler

To be clear, I still don't think Samus is nearly as sexualized as other non-Nintendo female characters. Honestly, what has been used to sexualize Samus is relatively and comparatively tame. I agree, she's no Soulcalibur character or anything. However, I do think Nintendo has been focusing on a different aspect of her lately (her not in some variation of the Power Suit), which in turn is causing part of the fanbase to sexualize her much more than previously. It's true, Nintendo hasn't done any especially drastic sexualization, but like I said, if a character is attractive (which is an angle recent Samus appearances have played at a lot), a portion of the fanbase will take it upon themselves to take the slight increase in sexuality and multiply it substantially. Don't get me wrong, I'm not placing the blame solely on Nintendo.

And it's not just Samus this applies to, Peach and Zelda (and yes, even characters like Captain Falcon), are, by fans, victim of it too. Really most video game characters that can be seem by some as attractive do get hypersexualized by "fans", sort of like you said. It's that characters like Peach and Zelda are less sexualized than Samus in their games, which is why it might not be as prominent. If they also started running around in Zero Suits, I'd wager there would be just as much "fanart" of them.



I just wonder how much more Samus would've been sexualized by Team Ninja had they been given complete control of the character, given their past record of females in their games.

Absolutley. In fact I wager that Nintendo decided to have ZSS in the Trailer for brawl just to get more hype going. I still remember all those threads on forums and /v/ about "ZOMG SAMUS TOOK HER CLOTHES OFF" , Snake even spoke Suggestively of her in his codec conversation. Remember that?

I feel almost like Sakurai sat around in the drawing room with the rest of the team and said "Hey guy's how about we have Samus wear her skintight outfit and use her plasma whip, maybe we can drum up a little Trouble?"

But As I said before, I think that no Characters in Smash Bros are ever going to be Too sexual. (At least I hope) Because after all, Smash Bros is supposed to be for the entire Family right?

 

[N3ON]

Well, Itagaki, the big pervert in the group, had left well before Other M was announced. Team Ninja now seems like the kind of developer that is more than willing to respect the original works. It's like how the Virtua Fighter characters in DOA5 are more or less the same as before.

Fair enough, honestly my biggest objection with Other M wasn't the sexualization but just the overall portrayal of Samus (though that's a different debate). If they can manage to shed their previous reputation of how they show females (now that Itagaki's gone) then IMO that's great, though honestly I don't pay much attention to a lot of what Team Ninja does anymore. Plus, I don't think they'll be asked back for another Metroid.

 

[Deleted member]

It's the Bayonetta-topic. And mostly that we don't see Nintendo driving on using characters portrayed like her. And how it has IMO ruined Samus, which might factor even more on Nintendo not wanting to portray characters like this. After Other M Nintendo halted out making more Metroids until now. Partly might be because how people were angry on how Samus was portrayed. And I factor her increased exposure as her real self compared to her last games as the things that led the developers like Sakamoto to mess her up for people.

I don't really care about ZSS though if she makes it again, but I don't like her due how she overshadows the classic Samus to certain degree for people.

Ahh, OK. Gotcha!

I don't think it was Samus' sexuality that ruined Samus, she's always had that, it was just less explicit. Granted, I will admit that if we compare the sexuality pushed by Nintendo on Zamus to the sexuaity seen on Bayonetta, it's clear who wins. Anyway, I feel what ruined Samus was how weak and frail she was shown in Other M. People didn't mind the fanservice so much as they did

Spoiler

THEBABYTHEBAYTHEBABY

, and her internal monologues. Not to mention how she displayed fear when faced with her long time rival Ridley, someone she's already killed countless times and should have no fear of anymore. And I agree with those criticisms, Samus was never weak, nor weak-willed, nor weak-minded. However, that's how Other M portrayed her, which contradicted her original image, and that which was polished through the Prime trillogy (which is now regarded as non-canon).

Also, I think Zamus overshadows Samus in Smash because Vanilla Samus is a rather BAD character. She has been since Melee (didn't play competitively in Smash64), which is a real shame too, because she's one of the few "true" Zoning Characters in Smash, but that's got more to do with Sakurai's incompetence in regard to balancing than anything else (yes, even Melee was a mess when in came to roster balance). Hopefully this will finally be fixed in regard with Smash 4 since Namco is helping out this time around.

@Arc
Nah, they need to increase her running and fall speed and give her more weight. Make her Missiles like Melee's and give her Screw Attack more range.

@Scar86

But As I said before, I think that no Characters in Smash Bros are ever going to be Too sexual. (At least I hope) Because after all, Smash Bros is supposed to be for the entire Family right?

I dunno, I never played Melee with my parents and my sibling were too sucky at it to wanna play with me. Also, as I've said before, Melee's artstyle struck me as more mature. In fact I still recall when I first saw a commercial for Melee back in 2000(1? maybe? It was Christmas time, that's all I remember): I was just a wee-lil' shaver at the tender age of 10(11? I can't remember honestly), and was at my cousin's house and we noticed that for the first time ever a game with Mario was *gasp rater "T for Teen." Not to mention, the commercial looked a lot darker than normal Mario games. I remember sharing rumos with my cousin that Melee was T for Teen because it was violent and had blood (which wasn't true), something shocked us as it was tough tp picture Mario bleeding, but at the same time rejoiced and nodded our heads thinking "Wow, Melee looks so cool, a dark an serious Nintendo game with Mario."

In contrast with Brawl's more colorful and campy nature, because of Melee, I never really considered Smash Bros. a "family" title, not to mention I got a lot of **** from my mom as a kid, because she thought it was too violent.

So, ultimately it depends on the art-direction the game takes. I think we'll see Smash Bros 4 stand out and choose for itself which way it may go. As I said before, characters like Snake and the like fit a lot better in the Smash Universe if it has a darker more mature art-style like in Melee. Of course he's gonna stick out in Brawl, but even then, not so much. At least not as much as it's argued around here.

 

[Scar86]

Spoiler

Ahh, OK. Gotcha!

I don't think it was Samus' sexuality that ruined Samus, she's always had that, it was just less explicit. Granted, I will admit that if we compare the sexuality pushed by Nintendo on Zamus to the sexuaity seen on Bayonetta, it's clear who wins. Anyway, I feel what ruined Samus was how weak and frail she was shown in Other M. People didn't mind the fanservice so much as they did

Spoiler

THEBABYTHEBAYTHEBABY

, and her internal monologues. Not to mention how she displayed fear when faced with her long time rival Ridley, someone she's already killed countless times and should have no fear of anymore. And I agree with those criticisms, Samus was never weak, nor weak-willed, nor weak-minded. However, that's how Other M portrayed her, which contradicted her original image, and that which was polished through the Prime trillogy (which is now regarded as non-canon).

Also, I think Zamus overshadows Samus in Smash because Vanilla Samus is a rather BAD character. She has been since Melee (didn't play competitively in Smash64), which is a real shame too, because she's one of the few "true" Zoning Characters in Smash, but that's got more to do with Sakurai's incompetence in regard to balancing than anything else (yes, even Melee was a mess when in came to roster balance). Hopefully this will finally be fixed in regard with Smash 4 since Namco is helping out this time around.

I agree, ZSS overshadowed Samus in more ways than one, she was a much better character for competitive play. I hope that Link isn't as bad this time around, I thought he was good in Mele,. and they ruined him in Brawl, Maybe Ganondorf can use Swords or something. It's bad enough he's a clone, but him being a bad clone is even worse.

 

[FlareHabanero]

All three Super Smash Bros. games had balance problems. Seriously, if there was problems with only 12 characters, you know something is not right there. Then again, a single person trying to balance out characters would always lead to disaster. It's a nice change of pace to actually have a team handling it this time, especially one with experience with fighting games like Soul Caliber and Tekken.

 

[ChronoBound]

All three Super Smash Bros. games had balance problems. Seriously, if there was problems with only 12 characters, you know something is not right there. Then again, a single person trying to balance out characters would always lead to disaster.

The original Smash Bros. was made with a shoestring budget, so that is why it was so unbalanced despite the roster only have 12 characters.

Brawl is more balanced than Melee was (if you ignore Meta Knight and the trash that is Ganondorf).

Sakurai wants to make balance a big focus of Smash 4.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Melee as a whole felt more unbalanced because of the heavy reliance on varies exploits in the games mechanics, like L-cancelling and wave dashing; in fact most of the success of varies characters was because of a heavy reliance of Melee's mechanics. Melee also favored speed over everything else, which was why Fox and Sheik were notably so potent compared to everything else.

Brawl tried to even this out by altering and removing mechanics, but it still suffers from some balance issues. Not as bad as Melee, but it still has some notable problems like Meta Knight.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree, ZSS overshadowed Samus in more ways than one, she was a much better character for competitive play. I hope that Link isn't as bad this time around, I thought he was good in Mele,. and they ruined him in Brawl, Maybe Ganondorf can use Swords or something. It's bad enough he's a clone, but him being a bad clone is even worse.

Link was alright in Melee, not top-tier, but still an decent character over all. But my GOD, what they did to Ganondorf pissed me off to no end. He was the only heavyweight that posed ANY kind of thread in the hands of a good player, but Jesus, what did they do to him in Brawl. Swords or no Swords, I agree he should be de-cloned, but don't make him a joke again.

All three Super Smash Bros. games had balance problems. Seriously, if there was problems with only 12 characters, you know something is not right there. Then again, a single person trying to balance out characters would always lead to disaster. It's a nice change of pace to actually have a team handling it this time, especially one with experience with fighting games like Soul Caliber and Tekken.

Melee as a whole felt more unbalanced because of the heavy reliance on varies exploits in the games mechanics, like L-cancelling and wave dashing; in fact most of the success of varies characters was because of a heavy reliance of Melee's mechanics. Melee also favored speed over everything else, which was why Fox and Sheik were notably so potent compared to everything else.

Brawl tried to even this out by altering and removing mechanics, but it still suffers from some balance issues. Not as bad as Melee, but it still has some notable problems like Meta Knight.

Agreed, we can expect the game mechanics to be more thought out this time around. I'm glad for that to be honest. I would agree that Brawl was more balanced than Melee, but only by a small margin. Melee's biggest problem was that it favored the fast characters over the slow ones, not the strange mechanics so much, though those were a problem as well.

Hopefully this time around we can have a fast fighter, that also gives slow heavyweights a fighting chance. I felt like they were weak in Melee because Sakurai realizes they have the potential to be the most broken (little knockback,, heavy hitback in a King of the Hill type game...), and thus nerfs them to hell and back.

Aside from that, Smash needs well implemented Cancel mechanics that are thought out a bit. It needs to turn the focus on the actual fighting and away from the extra content. I made a post over at the General forum touching on what sort of mechanics I'd like to see fleshed out in Smash 4, but I'll leave that for its designated forum.

Nonetheless, I feel like the game is in good hands with Namco. I'm actually most excited to see what sort of mechanics they add to the game (air-dashes and air grabs please?), and in seeing the roster be properly balanced, not just across weights, but fighting styles and strategies as well.

Smash 4 (could) have the potential to be a great fighter.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Heavy characters in general just need more options in order to be more effective, because solely focusing on power is not enough. They mainly suffer from slowness, unreliable projectiles, poor recovery, poor range, and large size, which is not a good thing when other characters solved these problems and can take advantage of it to a great extent. The heavy weight characters that don't suffer from these traits tend to be a lot better off without becoming an overwhelming force, like Snake and King Dedede.

 

[Ember Reaper]

Agreed, we can expect the game mechanics to be more thought out this time around. I'm glad for that to be honest. I would agree that Brawl was more balanced than Melee, but only by a small margin. Melee's biggest problem was that it favored the fast characters over the slow ones, not the strange mechanics so much, though those were a problem as well.

Hopefully this time around we can have a fast fighter, that also gives slow heavyweights a fighting chance. I felt like they were weak in Melee because Sakurai realizes they have the potential to be the most broken (little knockback,, heavy hitback in a King of the Hill type game...), and thus nerfs them to hell and back.

Aside from that, Smash needs well implemented Cancel mechanics that are thought out a bit. It needs to turn the focus on the actual fighting and away from the extra content. I made a post over at the General forum touching on what sort of mechanics I'd like to see fleshed out in Smash 4, but I'll leave that for its designated forum.

Nonetheless, I feel like the game is in good hands with Namco. I'm actually most excited to see what sort of mechanics they add to the game (air-dashes and air grabs please?), and in seeing the roster be properly balanced, not just across weights, but fighting styles and strategies as well.

Smash 4 (could) have the potential to be a great fighter.

This. I entirely agree. At first I was scared what Namco may offer because it wasn't Nintendo, me being Nintendo based solely. As I learned more about Namco, and what they were asked to do each time, it got me more excited for what they will do. Offer new abilities in game, help with the balance. With it being Sakurai's game, we also shouldn't need to worry about it diverging from the original smash formula at all. Just new mechanics, and a better balance than Brawl.

 

[SmashChu]

Aside from that, Smash needs well implemented Cancel mechanics that are thought out a bit. It needs to turn the focus on the actual fighting and away from the extra content. I made a post over at the General forum touching on what sort of mechanics I'd like to see fleshed out in Smash 4, but I'll leave that for its designated forum.

No, it needs the extra content. That's what Smash fans love. Smash is a game you can play for a long time. I'm sure many people will be playing Brawl up until the next game's release. It doesn't need to focus on being "a good fighter." That's not Smash.

 

[N3ON]

No, it needs the extra content. That's what Smash fans love. Smash is a game you can play for a long time. I'm sure many people will be playing Brawl up until the next game's release. It doesn't need to focus on being "a good fighter." That's not Smash.

More like that's not Sakurai. Smash is what different people want to make of it, and some people want it to be a technique and advanced-mechanic reliant game, more akin to Melee, while the general majority is just drawn in by the seemingly simplistic gameplay and the characters, and continue to play because of all the extra content.

Keep in mind we are not the majority, nor the key audience of Smash, even if we are the most vocal part of it. There aren't 10 million people who bought Smash because they wanted a fighting game with plenty of quality nuance. People who specifically wanted that above any other aspect don't even make up a tenth of the total number of people who bought the game.

Sakurai makes the game to appeal to the highest amount of people he can. Does that mean he can make it competitive yet casual at the same time? Sure, though that's not necessarily his top priority. The majority of people who play Smash enjoy the extra content much more than gameplay aspects they aren't even aware of. That's who Sakurai primarily makes Smash for, and that's who Sakurai will continue to make Smash for.

In a perfect world, Sakurai would give both the more competitive and the more casual elements the same amount of attention, polish, and priority, and they would both turn out wonderfully. However, the competitive aspect is clearly less important to Sakurai, so expecting a light amount of extra content with the focus on mechanics is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

(this wasn't directed at you SmashChu, your post was just a good transition )

 

[Robert of Normandy]

No, it needs the extra content. That's what Smash fans love. Smash is a game you can play for a long time. I'm sure many people will be playing Brawl up until the next game's release. It doesn't need to focus on being "a good fighter." That's not Smash.

So being "a good fighter" and having extra content are mutually exclusive? Gotcha.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Still, some balance would be nice. There doesn't need to be flashy new mechanics that only experts would understand, just evenness among the roster.

 

[Deleted member]

Heavy characters in general just need more options in order to be more effective, because solely focusing on power is not enough. They mainly suffer from slowness, unreliable projectiles, poor recovery, poor range, and large size, which is not a good thing when other characters solved these problems and can take advantage of it to a great extent. The heavy weight characters that don't suffer from these traits tend to be a lot better off without becoming an overwhelming force, like Snake and King Dedede.

Agreed 100%, hell I would even go as far as saying faster characters should have a few defensive options removed, such as having weaker shields for example. Forcing faster characters to REALLY think about when to block hits.

Also, I think something like BB's Negative System is needed in Smash Bros, if there is anything I hate more than Spammers, its goddamn cowards. Spammers are easy to deal with, cowards are just flat out annoying. This is especially an issue if they decide to introduce more aerial mechanics such as an Air-Dash, and the like, because with that, suddenly running away becomes a hell of a lot easier.

Heavy moves need more power to the point they can break shields in a couple strikes with ease, and I agree, their moves need more speed. Better pokes at least.

One simply needs to look at EVERY other figher out there to see how they handle their heavyweights, Zangief for example, dude's a threat no matter how you look at it, he's got a couple speedy pokes that will get you, and his Suplex grab, Jesus.

Potemkin in GG is a bit less threatening, but still stands up pretty well against the cast. Iron Tager is interesting because of his Magnet mechanics. This is something that would be interesting to see in someone like Ganondorf for example his Dark Magic moves could have a gravity effect similar to Samus' Screw Attack, where his attacks pull you in (because you know, Darkness=Gravity (at least according to One Piece (and modern Astro/Quantum Physics (or was it the other way around? Dark matter is a repelling force, while gravity is the core force behind matter that draws things together, or was Anti-matter the repelling one? I guess that idea comes from Black Holes = Dark Energy (in fiction), and Black Holes are super-dense gravity, so yeah... offtopic...)))).

You could also look at Astaroth in Soul Calibur, dude is BEAST! In fact, I'd like to see a spiritual successor to him in Smash in some way, one of my fave heavyweight characters of all time (and I'm a rushdown fighter (Marth, Noel, Cammy, etc...)).

Also, their resistance and recovery from hits needs to be improved, that would certainly give them an edge as fighters and make Rushdown characters like Marth and Sheik and Fox think twice before trying to set up a juggle/combo.

No, it needs the extra content. That's what Smash fans love. Smash is a game you can play for a long time. I'm sure many people will be playing Brawl up until the next game's release. It doesn't need to focus on being "a good fighter." That's not Smash.

I really, REALLY hope you're trolling. Nah, man, that's a good one, hahahaha, 8/10 you really had me going for a while there, you couldn't possibly be serious. You're being sarcastic, right? I mean sarcasm is poorly translated across the internet after all...

For ****s sakes, I've seen so many dumb posts recently I'm not sure when people are being ironic, pseudo ironic, or just plain stupid anymore.

I'm gonna give you the benefit of a doubt, I'm sure you were just being sarcastic after all.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I really, REALLY hope you're trolling. Nah, man, that's a good one, hahahaha, 8/10 you really had me going for a while there, you couldn't possibly be serious. You're being sarcastic, right? I mean sarcasm is poorly translated across the internet after all...

For ****s sakes, I've seen so many dumb posts recently I'm not sure when people are being ironic, pseudo ironic, or just plain stupid anymore.

I'm gonna give you the benefit of a doubt, I'm sure you were just being sarcastic after all.

You clearly don't know SmashChu. He believes all the bulls**t he's spouting.

 

[---]

Personally I'd say it needs a bit of both, with content taking the bigger focus. The gameplay really just needs a few minor tweaks in order to round out some characters and mechanics in order to differentiate it from Melee/Brawl while keeping things easy to pick up and play, and no I don't think any of those changes have to relate to balance either.

Somehow I also feel that PSASBR fits in really well as the direct opposite of Smash in these regards, now that I'm thinking about it.

EDIT: Honestly I think Uprising is a better example of Sakurai's developing philosophy than Brawl, come to think about it. He did say Uprising would be the prime example of what we could come to expect from Smash 4.

 

[Arcadenik]

No, it needs the extra content. That's what Smash fans love. Smash is a game you can play for a long time. I'm sure many people will be playing Brawl up until the next game's release. It doesn't need to focus on being "a good fighter." That's not Smash.

So, what? If the gameplay in SSB4 is like Cartoon Network Punch Time Explosion or Dream Mix TV World Fighters, people would still love it if it's got tons of characters, stages, and extra, extra content? I doubt it.

 

[ChronoBound]

So, what? If the gameplay in SSB4 is like Cartoon Network Punch Time Explosion or Dream Mix TV World Fighters, people would still love it if it's got tons of characters, stages, and extra, extra content? I doubt it.

Brawl is not a good competitive fighter, and its still selling.

The fact is the Smash Bros. is a party game with fighting at its focal point. Its kind of like Metroid Prime is not a FPS despite the perspective being in the first person, and you are shooting.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Casual Smash fans will love the next game regardless of whatever advanced techniques are put in the game(either intentionally or unintentionally). So long as the game remains largely the same(i.e. seperate attack/special buttons, Blocking/dodgin buttons, actions are determined by simple button presses, KOs by ring out, etc.), I don't think most casual fans will really care what the high level players are doing.

 

[Deleted member]

Personally I'd say it needs a bit of both, with content taking the bigger focus. The gameplay really just needs a few minor tweaks in order to round out some characters and mechanics in order to differentiate it from Melee/Brawl while keeping things easy to pick up and play.

Somehow I also feel that PSASBR fits in really well as the direct opposite of Smash in these regards, now that I'm thinking about it.

I agree, it shouldn't disregard the content completely, but... you can only add so much content to a game that people will eventually just burn through it and forget about it. Great gamplay on the other hand will last you for DECADES. People still play old classics to this day on gameplay alone. Hell, the only reason Melee is still alive is because of the tight gameplay.

Don't get me wrong, I like bonus content as well, Loved the event matches, and adventure mode, and Brawl Stadium and Boss Rush modes, and I think they should be fleshed out more than before.

But if more content comes at the sacrifice of gameplay, then no dice.

Look, personally, I stopped caring about Brawl altogether until the hacking community brought it back to life. The floaty mechanics made the game quite boring for me and my friends. I never bothered to get good at Brawl simply because I never really cared for it too much. Melee on the other hand, I was addicted to that game man. You could NOT get me off of that thing for MONTHS, and even then it still continues to be one of my all-time-favorite fighters.

Maybe we're the minority as N3ON says, but still, Smash Bros is a fighting game, sure a party fighter, but a fighting game none-the-less. Successful fighters are successful because they have the gameplay and mechanics to back it up, period, that cast means **** if the game itself isn't up to par.

Also, there will always be a division between the casual Smash Fans, the the Competitive Fighters. Introducing advanced mechanics never makes the game inaccessible for the casuals. Advanced mechanics are simply a way of giving the Hard-core fans a bit of content to add depth to the game. It's all a matter of how far down the rabbit hole the individual is willing to go, and this is the case with ALL MOST, fighting games out there.


Also, on Sony Smash, never played it, but from what I hear, the way the game is played makes it seem rather shallow. Only being able to kill with Ultra moves only gives you so many options, I don't think that game is gonna last long, I feel it would get stale very fast, though I could be wrong.

 

[Arcadenik]

So why bother with getting Namco to work out the balancing if people generally don't care about the gameplay?