Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I too am finding the 70:30 ratio to be rather excessive, especially if the match-up appears to be more on the 50:50 side of things. Of course, I don't know enough of the Rosalina vs. Falco match-up to be certain.

 

[MezzoMe]

I don't have enough time in order to adjust the comment I wanted to, but in the Hawk boards it's widely considered from 60:40 to 70:30, simply because:

• Both have pretty good advantaged states
• Hawk can't force her to approach
• Hawk sucks when approaching, his speed and range are inferior
• Profit

From the looks of it, I can't imagine it being better than 70:30

 

[Ffamran]

Hawk boards? Since when did Jet the Hawk make it into Smash 4? And he's a Falco clone?

Edit: Falco's actually a pheasant by the way.

Anyway... I expected that this would be a dead discussion. Our ongoing discussion started a while back: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...-rosalina-luma-to-infinity-and-beyond.392185/.

I think this a terrible match up for Falco. Falco isn't a full on offensive character that can apply lots of pressure with quick attacks, instead he has to play defensively, which is something Rosalina excels at.
First she has a Luma shield that makes it difficult hitting her. It's also hard to land hits on Rosalina because her roll is quick and makes it hard to predict where she'll land.
In the air it's hard to hit her because of her unpredictable air dodge and if you happen to be above Rosalina, you don't have anything to challenge her up-air.
A lot of other things make it a hard match-up for Falco. Grab follow-ups are difficult because Luma will just knock you away once your grab is finished. She also has incredibly quick and powerful smash attacks that have lots of range, up-smash, down-smash, and f-smash being hard to punish because of Luma.
Falco is slow, doesn't have good range, and can't even force Rosalina to approach. I cant see the match-up being anything less than 70-30 for Rosalina.

I think I'm the only one who "enjoys" this mu.
Not that I ever faced any good Rosalinas but I feel like all you need to do is pop her in the air and you can just dish out a boat load of damage onto her.
Baiting her "invisible" airdodge is a must.
Lasers should only be used when Rosa charges her Luma shot.
Attacking Rosa From the sides allows you to strike at her blind spot effectively.
Using SH Phantasm places you in a highly advantages spot.
And killing luma should be your #1/2 priority. Going for the kill when Luma isn't there is preferred.

Neutral game
Luma will block the lasers and it forces Falco to approach and rosalina out ranges him. Her moves are all disjointed so challenging them will be in rosies favor. She will Nair in the beginning which auto cancels, falco really doesn't have much to stop this other that oos options. Her brick wall of jabs is also really hard to deal with and falco has to get hit to get out most the time due to Luma and rosie covering the rolling spots. Falco can however get luma KOed with a Bair which makes the MU easier. He'll be able to do oos options more easily. Though she still has those disjoints and he still has to approach due to GP. Falco just needs to to look for opportunities to punish

Edgeguarding
Rosalinas recovery doesn't have a Hitbox allowing Falco to easily gimp. A good dair or bair can easily get a fast gimp. Also I think dtilt hits below the edgeguard. Rosalina can also gimp Falco too with a dair due to the big disjoint. It stops both the recoveries. I think lumas nair stops the phantasm. On the ledge rosalina can jab with Luma to cover all landing options and uair to cover jumps.

Kill power
Here it really depends on stage, Falco really wants a stage with no platforms because rosalinas uair kills really fast. Her Uair can kill at like 50%, her smashes are also pretty strong and ranged. Falco just basically needs to camp for a bair which kills rosalina fast due to her light weight. His smashes require a hard read

Stages
Rosalina likes platforms. Falco does not

Who wins
Paletuna

Score
60-40 Rosalina and Luma

I feel like stages with platforms could go both ways since U-throw > Uair is a thing for Falco

Falco has no hope on FD imo.
Rosy has too much stage control and the Luma can be used to pressure Falco to the point where it feels endless at almost all ends of the stage, he can't approach he can't force approach, his range is too short.
Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but I usually can't find an opening for Rosy without forcing my way through with a phantasm, and that can still get punished very easily.

At least on Battlefield I can move around the Luma and find way to kill it easier, yet Rosy's amazing air game bops you on the platforms, her range is just too good.

I want to say 60-40 Rosy's favor.

I used to main Megaman, and my bestfriend played Rosalina. So after months of that, playing Rosalina as Falco isn't nearly as hard, lmao.

To make it short,
Stay grounded when she has luma.
Separate them with Bair or Fsmash.
Rush her down with aerials when Luma isn't around.

Now to go in detail,

Rosaluma = Rosalina and Luma together
Rosalina and Luma = separate.

From my experiance, a forward smash on Rosaluma, whether it's well spaced to hit Rosalina or not, will always hit Luma, and the sheer knockback normally knocks Luma off stage. A bair often does the same thing at the risk of a grab. Our lasers stop Luma from launching in it's tracks, and even worst, we can reflect Luma back at Rosalina. The only thing I wouldn't recommend is approaching Rosaluma with aerials, as you will nearly always lose out. If Rosaluma approaches you with aerials, Utilt/Usmash punish will separate them easily. However it will rarely kill Luma.

After Luma is disposed or displaced, we have to keep our momentum. Without her hitbox, Rosalina is easy to approach, given her large frame, and floaty nature. It's even easier to punish her in the air, because our aerials are faster than her's without Luma. Utilt and Uair will be your juggling tools of choice.

At low percents I've realized Dash attack>Full hop Fair>2nd jump Fair Is a good string to displace Luma and carry Rosa off stage. She cant react out of it with nair because Luma will be elsewhere, and her other aerials will whiff or be too slow to prevent the 2nd fair. Also Rosalina is too floaty to FC Dair out of Dthrow, so if you want FC Dairs, you'll have to read for them.

When it comes to Rosalina off stage, go after her. Her recovery practically ensures she'll make it back, so if you want her dead, you'll have to kill her yourself. Luckily shes pretty floaty and huge, so hitting a bair or even a dair wont be hard. Time your second jump. If you want to wait for her, you can hang on ledge and force her to steal it from you, and if she's particularly aggressive and likes to follow up ledgesteal with an areial, you get an easy phantasm spike off her. Spikes on Rosalina are normally death, since her recovery is mostly horizontal.

I'll try to upload a match when I get the chance.

Oh lord this matchup is Hell for falco. I did a smash ladder today against a Rosa main and mannnn. It sucks that we cannot follow up our grab attacks because of Luma. Her roll animation Is quick fast. And when you're coming back to the ledge god forbid you miss the ledge or try to phantasm through them. DO NOT try it lol.

Rosa stands roll distance from the ledge while Luma ledge guards only option is to get up attack which Rosa can F smash you once you hit luma. It's 60-40 Rosalinas favor. I was able to take a match on battlefield thanks to platforms but lost third match at halberd.the laser almost did my dirty work. I Fsmashed Rosa and as she was recovering I tried to gimp but luma tickled my insides.

Worst stages Falco wants to be on is Delfino and Halberd since you could easily 0-death him consistently even though Falco could kill off the top easily; huge risk/reward. This MU is made worse by Falco's lagging metagame and no notable big name player who's done anything remarkable with Falco. The closest thing we have to Dabuz is GimR and he secondaries Falco. I haven't seen him use Falco much lately, so, yeah...

Everything Rosalina has clashes with Falco's game plan. He can't punish well when he's outranged and has to deal with Luma who walls him out. Rosalina's aerials are disjointed while Falco only has Fair and Reflector for disjoints in the air. This leaves Falco easily juggled, gimped, and spiked as he has no real way of challenging Rosalina in the air safely not to mention being a fast faller with bad air speed. Falco's strongest way of killing Luma is with Side Smash and Falco Charge both of which are above 16 frames of startup. He could Bair Luma, but Luma's small... It might be better for Falco to prioritize Rosalina and sucker punch Luma whenever he gets the chance. Falco's ground game also gets outranged since Rosalina has a disjointed jab and Luma.

The thing about Falco is he capitalizes on unsafe options. There is never a reason to be behind Falco because of his Bair and Down Smash if you somehow end up behind him on the ground. Recovering high up, especially with default Launch Star just asks Falco to Dair, Fair, Bair, Uair, or Falco Phantasm spike. The lack of a hitbox on Launch Star is something Falco can abuse if he does get a chance. Falco Phantasm's lack of a front hitbox on Falco means anything will catch him like Side Smash, positioned Luma, Star Bit, etc. Fire Bird's charge and shorter travel compared to Fire Fox means Rosalina can drop down and spike or gimp him. Distant Fire Bird has an even longer charge and Rosalina has no trouble edgeguarding deep. Fast Fire Bird might be the better choice as it gives Falco another burst movement and it has little startup while traveling slightly less than default Fire Bird.

 

[Zionaze]

Basically this applies to every character,
Don't sleep on the bird.
That B-air will send you to the shadow realm

 

[NotAnAdmin]

I still somewhat stand by what I've said before.

This match-up for Falco is awful.
Luma can wall him out so well and the jab almost feels broken at times.

If we can find a way around Luma or hit him off stage and get a hold of Rosy, Falco can do some crazy stuff, but that's a pretty big if in this match-up.

 

[Zionaze]

Reflector and removing Luma is Falco's #1 priority. Without Luma, Falco can juggle Rosy pretty darn hard and chase with Phatasms.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I still somewhat stand by what I've said before.

This match-up for Falco is awful.
Luma can wall him out so well and the jab almost feels broken at times.

If we can find a way around Luma or hit him off stage and get a hold of Rosy, Falco can do some crazy stuff, but that's a pretty big if in this match-up.

There's nothing almost broken about Luma's jab. That thing is a ridiculous move. There's been a lot of falco input which is weird considering the lack of rep. But there's not much to say here though.

I too am finding the 70:30 ratio to be rather excessive, especially if the match-up appears to be more on the 50:50 side of things. Of course, I don't know enough of the Rosalina vs. Falco match-up to be certain.

I think the 7-3 MU is appropriate especially in this MU. I don't see falco having any of the things that you wouldn't want to see as a Rosalina. His dash speed isn't the greatest so there's that. He has quick moves but he doesn't really have anything that frustrating to deal with like a shiek fair or fox jab or diddy fair dtilt uair.

Also despite the two frame jab his jab has issues. I think his jab 1 is good job 2 is decent but multi jab sucks. So keep that in mind because falco should cancel jab (moost frame advantage? )

Also something else that swings the MU towards Rosalina is Falco's inability to kill. His best kill move is bair which kills around 130 (i could be mistaken here). Then there's dtilt which is a sneaky kill move. Falco also has a lot of follow ups to his moves at low percentages. I do not believe he has any kill set ups. So fsmash dsmash usmash are all stuff he needs a read to land. Fsmash being the slowest of his smash attacks shouldn't be too hard to see coming.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY : Like I've said before, I don't know much about the Rosalina vs. Falco match-up. What I do know is that Falco's Reflector does counter Luma Shot, Floaty Star Bit, and Shooting Star Bit, so long distance projectile attacks aren't exactly going to get Rosalina anywhere.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY : Like I've said before, I don't know much about the Rosalina vs. Falco match-up. What I do know is that Falco's Reflector does counter Luma Shot, Floaty Star Bit, and Shooting Star Bit, so long distance projectile attacks aren't exactly going to get Rosalina anywhere.

Luma warp it doesn't counter and I don't believe it counter her regular side B. I know you said you haven't experienced the MU. I was trying to break down Falco and what's he's about.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Luma warp it doesn't counter and I don't believe it counter her regular side B. I know you said you haven't experienced the MU. I was trying to break down Falco and what's he's about.

Standard Star Bits aren't considered a projectile, so Falco can't reflect them.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Standard Star Bits aren't considered a projectile, so Falco can't reflect them.

Now what happens with that and his custom side ? It'd be an interesting interaction I think the moves may trade.

 

[mario123007]

Standard Star Bits aren't considered a projectile, so Falco can't reflect them.

What about fast and floaty starbits?
Well, Villager can pocket star bits, of course.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What about fast and floaty starbits?
Well, Villager can pocket star bits, of course.

Floaty Star Bit and Shooting Star Bit are actual projectile attacks. The standard Star Bits are actually a disjointed hitbox attack.

 

[Zionaze]

His best kill move is bair which kills around 130 (i could be mistaken here).

Falco's B-air is probably the best in the game imo.
But he does struggle to get kills tho :V
I'm looking at a 65-35 mu in favor of rosy.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

There's nothing almost broken about Luma's jab. That thing is a ridiculous move. There's been a lot of falco input which is weird considering the lack of rep. But there's not much to say here though.

I wasn't actually being serious. Her jabs are very strong though. Has great range too.

 

[Parcheesy]

Going to withhold a ratio, because I really haven't faced a Falco good enough to judge the absolute strength of the character.

It hasn't really been discussed much yet, but I find Falco's shine incredibly irksome in its ability to snuff most grounded approaches. As someone who likes to be aggressive on the ground, and likes to frequent the dash attack / dash grab mixup, having shine aggressively counter both equally while remaining fairly difficult to outspace and punish makes him much harder to pressure than other slow characters. Thankfully, Falco's anti-air kit doesn't seem intended for trading. Both his up tilt and smash are multi hit, so they'll either trade poorly with Rosy's nair approaches, or will be seem well enough in advance to avoid altogether.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Falco's discussion period is now over, and as usual, here's the overall average that I've gotten for the Rosalina vs. Falco match-up...

[65:35 - 68:32]

It seems that Rosalina gives Falco a good amount of problems. Of course, we will have to look at the match-up again at a later date, just to be sure.

Anyway, next up is Rosalina's match-up against the Ninja Pokemon, Greninja.

 

[Macchiato]

@ Mario & Sonic Guy ummm you never put my ratio for Wii fit in. I said that my score was the same with 9ball's which was 50-50 default and 60-40 WiiFit with customs

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Mario & Sonic Guy ummm you never put my ratio for Wii fit in. I said that my score was the same with 9ball's which was 50-50 default and 60-40 WiiFit with customs

You didn't say that on the following quoted post.

I completely agree with this.

 

[Macchiato]

You didn't say that on the following quoted post.

Oh well I kinda though it would imply the same thing. My bad

 

[bc1910]

Hey Rosalina players, I'm from the Greninja boards and I thought I'd weigh in with my observations about Greninja's ability to remove the threat of Luma in this MU. I would love to write more about other aspects of the MU but I'm extremely tired from my final exams so I'm just gonna jot down my Luma thoughts since I've had them set in stone for a while.

• Greninja doesn't have a very difficult time disposing of Luma. His 3 hit jab combo and dash attack both have high base knockback and can remove Luma easily.
• I find a common misconception with this MU is that Greninja lacks ways to get rid of Luma quickly, but that's not really true. Dash Attack in particular is phenomenal, although you DO have to watch out for Luma being above ground level because if she's even slightly too high, the attack will whiff. Something you can do though is just continue to sweep Luma off the stage with repeated dash attacks once you've hit her once, as long as you're mindful of what Rosalina is doing and don't get punished for it.
• Jab 3 is fairly safe on block if it is well spaced. Since Luma can't block, you can hit Rosa's block with this move and be safe while disposing of Luma.

I think the MU is close to even overall but I'm not going to slap a ratio on it. I will go into more detail another time, as I said I'm really tired.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think the MU is close to even overall but I'm not going to slap a ratio on it. I will go into more detail another time, as I said I'm really tired.

Since you've said the match-up is close to even, I've put you down as 50:50. And for those who missed the memo that I made during Fox's discussion period...

I'd like to say that from this point forward, if you state that a match-up is even, I'll be putting you down as 50:50. We're getting closer to the end of round 1, so I want to at least include the users who think that a certain match-up is evenly matched, regardless of whether or not he/she makes a ratio input.

 

[bc1910]

I'm not in the habit of putting ratios on things at the moment, I think analysis is way more valuable than putting MU ratios on things at this point cause there's so much discrepancy over what the ratios mean and how bad 40:60 really is etc. I do think this MU is very fair but I probably chose my wording poorly there. If you don't mind, don't put me down as 50:50, just ignore that.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm not in the habit of putting ratios on things at the moment, I think analysis is way more valuable than putting MU ratios on things at this point cause there's so much discrepancy over what the ratios mean and how bad 40:60 really is etc. I do think this MU is very fair but I probably chose my wording poorly there. If you don't mind, don't put me down as 50:50, just ignore that.

Very well.

On an additional note, I will let you know in advance that beginning in June, a new scoring system will be taking over; it should be much more simple than the ratio system.

 

[FullMoon]

Ok so listen up Rosalinas because I'm only going to say all of this once

Greninja screws up Rosalina's recovery. Hydro Pump can very easily make Rosalina shoot herself over the stage and Greninja has more than enough mobility to catch up to her and punish while she's still vulnerable which can lead to a really easy kill.

Rosalina is an easy target. Tall and floaty is the kind of character Greninja loves to fight (just ask Mewtwo) and so Rosalina is very easy to hit with things such as retreating F-Air that can leave him safe and possibly causing damage to Rosalina and Luma. Speaking of which:

Luma is not hard for Greninja to dispose. As mentioned before, Dash Attack and Jab 3 send Luma flying easily and after Luma suffers a bit of damage, F-Air and F-Smash (to a lesser extent Shadow Sneak as well) are also very good at disposing of her. Plus, we can pelt Luma with shurikens to build up damage against her and the only answer Rosa has to that is GP which is not exactly threatening as Rosalina can't punish us with it and if nothing else it leaves Luma without protection for Greninja's other attacks.

Rosalina dies really quickly. A sweetspot Up-Smash from Greninja can kill her as soon as 80% and considering we have kill confirms into Up-Smash, Rosalina is at danger of dying at around 70%. That's not counting with her potentially being caught by F-Smash or Shadow Sneak at the edge or being smacked with B-Air or Shadow Sneak offstage

Respect the Dash Grab. Greninja's dash grab is really good due to it's great range and so he can really punish Rosalina for her mistake with it and quickly throwing her before Luma can interrupt.

As you can see Greninja does have quite a few things going for him in this MU, especially when it comes to edgeguarding as he can really ruin Rosalina's day offstage.

Neutral: Rosalina has an advantage as long as Luma is still alive due to her taking the shurikens for Rosa and our N-Air not being as useful while she's still alive due to the hitlag hitting Luma with it causes and the fact that it's not very good for killing her, as well as that excellent jab of hers. Greninja has to take out Luma in order to win here, as without Luma to protect her, Rosalina is really vulnerable during GP to deal with shurikens and Greninja's amazing mobility can make running away for Rosalina while without Luma really difficult. While she can still fight back without Luma, Greninja can really wreck Rosalina when she's by herself due to being much more mobile than her and having his great dash grab alongside his amazing advantaged state.

Speaking of which, Greninja's Advantage state is likely one of the best in the game due to his high mobility, good range, excellent aerials for juggling and ability to easily catch landings with dash grab and dash attack. Rosalina's advantaged state is not to be underestimated either as her Up-Air is definitely very silly and can kill us really quickly if we're not careful, however once Luma is gone her advantaged state deflates considerably.

Disadvantage: Rosalina's D-Air can prevent Greninja from juggling her too much, with or without Luma and is probably her best asset to reset back to neutral. Greninja meanwhile can escape Rosalina's juggles with Hydro Pump which lets him get back to the ground quickly and considering Rosalina's floatiness and low fall speed, might even let him reverse the situation immediatelly to Rosalina likely still being above him once he's back to the ground.

Edgeguarding: Greninja wins here by a longshot, his recovery is very versatile with both Shadow Sneak and Hydro Pump covering so much distance that his recovery is near ungimpable without making a hard read and allows for too many mix-ups for Rosalina to be able to consistently edgeguard him, while Rosalina's recovery is very straight-forward and gets completely ruined by Hydro Pump and leaves her wide open for punishment.

Conclusion: The MU is even, a solid 50:50. Rosalina can keep Greninja away from her as long as Luma is still alive and good Rosalinas will keep Luma safe at all costs, making it difficult for the frog to get in and start doing his stuff, it's not impossible though and Greninja can certainly hold his own against Rosalina even with Luma still alive. It's when Luma is dead that things change dramatically and Rosalina is extremely vulnerable to Greninja's shenanigans during this time and any good ninja will take advantage of her vulnerability to turn the tables here, of course, Luma doesn't really stay away for too long.

It's the edgeguarding that makes this MU even because Greninja can severely mess Rosalina up when she's trying to recover and can very easily turns the table against her if she's caught by Hydro Pump while trying to use Launch Star. There's literally no risk in using Hydro Pump against Launch Star and it brings Greninja tons of reward for something so simple to do.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ FullMoon : This might have to be saved for round 2, but how does Hydro Pump fare against Launch Star Attack? Since Launch Star Attack can deal damage, it might be harder for Greninja to counter than the other Launch Star variations.

 

[FullMoon]

@ FullMoon : This might have to be saved for round 2, but how does Hydro Pump fare against Launch Star Attack? Since Launch Star Attack can deal damage, it might be harder for Greninja to counter than the other Launch Star variations.

I can't really tell much about customs since I'm very inexperience about them, it might be a bit trickier for Greninja to get the Pump hit without being hit, but I'd say it's still pretty low risk. Even if he gets hit by it he's probably not going to die unless he's at really high percentages and the fact that Launch Star Attack covers less distance makes so that Greninja can catch up to Rosalina even faster.

So using Launch Star Attack, at first glance, means that you have a better chance of catching Greninja in the act (which is likely not going to kill unless it stage spikes, and Greninja really doesn't need to put himself in risk of a stage spike when using Hydro Pump), but if you do get caught, you pretty much get punished just as bad or even worse than before.

One thing I forgot to mention is always keep Luma next to Rosalina . Don't use Luma Shot as leaving Rosalina without Luma's protection just means leaving yourself open for us to strike, or it gives us an opportunity to easily get rid of Luma. Don't separate Rosa and Luma unless you're going for a really hard read, as giving Greninja any sort of opening is very risky in this MU due to his mobility and great reward on hit.

 

[bc1910]

As long as you space Hydro Pump properly it's a no-risk high-reward edgeguard against almost every recovery move in the game. Launch Star attack wouldn't change anything as long as Greninja was spaced well enough to hit with the end of the pump.

Hydro Pump's actually pretty janky... It requires time investment to learn it though. And it's useless against people who still have a double jump, you have to use it on the recovery move itself.

 

[mario123007]

Greninja

• Fast speed, good for zoning.
• Jab combo and dash attack can get rid of Luma easily.
• Can KO Rosalina not in a much high damage.
• Has impressive dash grab.

Rosalina and Luma

• Air game is still better than Greninja
• GP can deflect Greninja's projectiles.
• Tall figure and floaty, easily get hit by sweetspot and KOed easily.
• Most attacks are slower than Greninja

Rosalina needs to act quickly when facing fast characters like Greninja, so I say this match is pretty even, 50:50.

 

[DisidisiD]

Greninja

• Fast speed, good for zoning.
• Jab combo and dash attack can get rid of Luma easily.
• Can KO Rosalina not in a much high damage.
• Has impressive dash grab.

Rosalina and Luma

• Air game is still better than Greninja
• GP can deflect Greninja's projectiles.
• Tall figure and floaty, easily get hit by sweetspot and KOed easily.
• Most attacks are slower than Greninja

Rosalina needs to act quickly when facing fast characters like Greninja, so I say this match is pretty even, 50:50.

Why are half of rosas pros... Cons.

 

[mario123007]

Why are half of rosas pros... Cons.

That's what I can think of, if I had missed something, tell me.

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm not the best Rosalina, but I am competent. I go about 50/50 against Tekei's Greninja at Xanadu. Keeping Luma glued to your chest is not the best option. Luma Shot is the interrupt you need for his ground approach, and it's much easier to interrupt anything he does start with Luma desynced. Hydro Pump isn't a serious threat, but his aerials are, especially offstage. His safe options are limited, so converting mistakes into smashes is a big part of this MU. Overall seems even.

 

[Smasher89]

Anyone have the framedata on greninjas dashgrab?, im quite sure it were one of the worst grabs in the game when it comes to speed, so being afraid of that isnt really something that anyone should be since you can easily avoid it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Anyone have the framedata on greninjas dashgrab?, im quite sure it were one of the worst grabs in the game when it comes to speed, so being afraid of that isnt really something that anyone should be since you can easily avoid it.

If the dash grab is faster than the normal grab, then yes, Rosalina would have to be weary of it. And no, the Luma can't save Rosalina if she gets grabbed.

 

[mario123007]

If the dash grab is faster than the normal grab, then yes, Rosalina would have to be weary of it. And no, the Luma can't save Rosalina if she gets grabbed.

Luma can only save her when she is thrown.

 

[Smasher89]

Checked it, greninja grabs: : 14-15f for normal grab
9-10f for dashgrab
and 15-16f for pivotgrab.
Wierdly enough it seems the dashgrab does have the most endlag, so it might even be incorrect.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Luma can only save her when she is thrown.

Actually, from what I can recall, the Luma can only attack "before" Rosalina gets thrown, but even then, it's a very futile effort, as the Luma can only perform one attack, which hardly even touches her opponent.

 

[FullMoon]

Checked it, greninja grabs: : 14-15f for normal grab
9-10f for dashgrab
and 15-16f for pivotgrab.
Wierdly enough it seems the dashgrab does have the most endlag, so it might even be incorrect.

Greninja's standing grab is probably among the worst in the game, however his dash grab is probably one of the faster ones, it comes out at the same frame as Meta Knight's and it has more range than most thanks to the whirlpool. His Pivot Grab also has a pretty silly range

Not only that but Greninja doesn't stretch his arms when trying to grab and he slides away during his pivot so it's really safe to throw out as well.

His dash grab does have the most end lag out of his grabs, though it's only 1 frame slower than his pivot grab.

Rosalina needs to be wary of his dash grab because it comes out pretty fast and has a lot of range to it, coupled with Greninja's mobility it means that if Rosalina messes up she's very likely to get grabbed.

This is especially a problem considering that our Up-Throw kills and Rosalina is pretty light.

 

[Lorde]

@ FullMoon already did a fantastic job of enumerating the important parts of this match-up, so there isn't too much I can add. However, I will say this:

• Greninja's fantastic mobility specs (4th fastest walk speed, 6th fastest dash speed, 6th fastest air speed, 3rd fastest fall speed) are a huge asset in this MU. Rosalina's main game plan is to play patiently and punish when the opponent makes a mistake, but it's difficult to do that when Greninja is zipping around on the stage.
• Rosalina's lightweight is a huge detriment since Greninja has a multitude of kill options that he can set up into.
• She has a lot of trouble landing (especially since dair is a 42 frame commitment and has 20 frames of landing lag), so Greninja can effectively harass Rosalina's landings, punishing her if she makes a mistake.
• Rosalina's juggling capabilities are not to be underestimated since Greninja's high fall speed makes him easier to juggle (but his fall speed also get him to the ground quicker, so that could also be considered a strength of Greninja's).

As for hitting opponents out of grabs with Luma, I believe it only works after they pummel you. Otherwise, I believe that particular ability was removed in the 1.0.4 patch.

I believe the match up is very even and each character has their own areas they excel in. I give a ratio of 50:50.

 

[mario123007]

Actually, from what I can recall, the Luma can only attack "before" Rosalina gets thrown, but even then, it's a very futile effort, as the Luma can only perform one attack, which hardly even touches her opponent.

But whenever Rosalina gets hit, Luma sometimes does give your opponent a surprise.