Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

[DisidisiD]

Just a couple questions: how long does Greninja have to charge his shruikens for them to be multi hit? How long is the endlag on shadow sneak? And finally, is his counter based on damage?

EDIT: Some more: if forced to jump over an object to get to Rosalina, how would this be done? Is his lower front covered well by any aerial?

 

[FullMoon]

Just a couple questions: how long does Greninja have to charge his shruikens for them to be multi hit? How long is the endlag on shadow sneak? And finally, is his counter based on damage?

EDIT: Some more: if forced to jump over an object to get to Rosalina, how would this be done? Is his lower front covered well by any aerial?

It takes a little more than a second for Water Shuriken to fully charge, Greninja won't be using charged shurikens much though thanks to Gravity Pull, you'll likely only ever see those when you're offstage if that, we would rather pelt Luma and Rosalina with uncharged ones.. SS has 38 frames of endlag but Greninja usually won't be using it unless he's making a read or trying to get Rosalina offstage. His counter does set damage and knockback and kills Rosalina at 77% aimed up.

Greninja can cover his front with both N-Air which covers his entire body and both F-Air and B-Air have good range that spaced well are safe to use. A well-spaced N-Air also can't be shield-grabbed.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A detail I'm sure you implied but still glossed over is that Water Shuriken is only multihit when fully charged. Partial charge is always single hit. (Unless I'm actually wrong but I don't think so.)

Shifting Shuriken is always single hit.

 

[Spirst]

This seems like the place to put this. Don't mind me. Just interrupting the topic at hand.

Anyway, I'm here to let you guys know that the Mewtwo MU thread is discussing Rosalina this week. I understand Mewtwo is a character not many have experience with outside of FG so it'll mostly be impressions without too much depth to go off of. Regardless, anything is appreciated.

<- Click to Teleport to the MU thread.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Spirst : Thanks for the heads up. Here, Rosalina will not be analyzing Mewtwo for round 1, but we will have a Mewtwo discussion period set up at some point during the round 2 match-up discussions. I'll let the Mewtwo sub-forum know when that time comes.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Greninja's discussion period will be ending one hour early. As such, I've added up all the ratio inputs to get an overall average for the Rosalina vs. Greninja match-up.

[50:50]

The match-up is pretty much even at this point in time.

Now, since Greninja's discussion period has ended early, we'll be starting Sonic's discussion period early. In other words, it's now time to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Sonic.

 

[tconan]

This is the ultimate zoner vs zone breaker mu.
Sonic pros:
Multitude of kill moves that ko early
Has a lot of mixups in terms of approaching
Spin dash can set up into deadly combos that can kill you very early if you di incorrectly
Can juggle Rosalina
HE IS FAST
Very powerful against SoRo due to high damage combos and mobility

Rosalina pros:
A lot of Luma's attacks can stop Sonic's approaches (ie jab, tilts, dair)
Can juggle Sonic pretty well
Has quick aerials and a great up smash that can catch Sonic after shielding spin dash (+homing attack or spring)
Can edgeguard Sonic
*Fortunately, does not get ko'ed so easily with back throw at the ledge anymore

This all comes down to the Rosalina player's ability to keep Sonic out of her zone using jab, d tilt, star bits, and sh aerials, especially dair. Luma's priority is your friend.
I give a ratio of 50:50.

 

[Smasher89]

Sonic cons: Hes airmobility is very slow, so if hes in the air not spinning, its time to backair him off the stage. Atleast from my for gloryexp.

 

[mario123007]

Sonic

• Ultimate zone breaker, and has a good combo chain
• Powerful back air.
• Spin dash can create many high damage combos.
• A bit slow to punish with Smash attacks, which means a lot of his attacks has a bit of lag.
• Super fast....

Rosalina

• Luma can jab Sonic, however Luma might get blast away by Sonic's dash attack.
• Juggling Sonic won't be hard.
• Get koed easily due to light weight
• Can punish Sonic whenever he finishes his attacks.

I give 50:50 so far to this MU

 

[TriTails]

Sonic cons: Hes airmobility is very slow,

Sonic's air speed is the 6th fastest, with not so bad acce and decce too (From what I remembered).

Remember, his recovery is rather limited to Spring Jump. Homing Attack isn't really good since if it fails to home in, it sends Sonic downwards, which basically means death unless he still has his double jump. Spring Jump itself is very vertical. Snipe his double jump and hit him if he is still not dead, should finish him. Or D-air spike him.

Spin Dash are annoying, but one thing Rosalinas should watch for is Spin Charge. Yes, you all probably are going like 'Those moves are exactly the same' but they are not. Spin Charge is faster than Spin Dash, and hits multiple times, and still combos into aerials (Albeit harder). This can catch people off-guard, so be wary.

His sheer speed (Dashing speed is over 3.5.... Falcon's only 2.3. The 'fastest thing alive' thing is real) means no mistake in your part go unpunished. I'd be wary for his U-smash, it's unreasonably strong for him, and Rosalina's vertical survivability is really bad. Oh, and Spin Dash -> U-air -> Spring Jump -> U-air, the ultimate noob friendly yet very rewarding combo. Getting hit by Spin Dash can mean a stock, so don't risk it if you can't.

Otherwise, he has fairly short range. Disjointed attacks should work against him. For juggling, remember he can cancel his D-air landing lag by going high enough, and his D-air falls really fast. Juggling him won't be easy if you can't catch the darn hedgehog himself. Though, if you ARE already in the air... then yes, snipe his double jump and smash him with U-airs.

That's all I can comment.

 

[mario123007]

Sonic's air speed is the 6th fastest, with not so bad acce and decce too (From what I remembered).

Remember, his recovery is rather limited to Spring Jump. Homing Attack isn't really good since if it fails to home in, it sends Sonic downwards, which basically means death unless he still has his double jump. Spring Jump itself is very vertical. Snipe his double jump and hit him if he is still not dead, should finish him. Or D-air spike him.

Spin Dash are annoying, but one thing Rosalinas should watch for is Spin Charge. Yes, you all probably are going like 'Those moves are exactly the same' but they are not. Spin Charge is faster than Spin Dash, and hits multiple times, and still combos into aerials (Albeit harder). This can catch people off-guard, so be wary.

His sheer speed (Dashing speed is over 3.5.... Falcon's only 2.3. The 'fastest thing alive' thing is real) means no mistake in your part go unpunished. I'd be wary for his U-smash, it's unreasonably strong for him, and Rosalina's vertical survivability is really bad. Oh, and Spin Dash -> U-air -> Spring Jump -> U-air, the ultimate noob friendly yet very rewarding combo. Getting hit by Spin Dash can mean a stock, so don't risk it if you can't.

Otherwise, he has fairly short range. Disjointed attacks should work against him. For juggling, remember he can cancel his D-air landing lag by going high enough, and his D-air falls really fast. Juggling him won't be easy if you can't catch the darn hedgehog himself. Though, if you ARE already in the air... then yes, snipe his double jump and smash him with U-airs.

That's all I can comment.

I really feel Sonic's attacks has a lot of lags, especially his landing lag and side Smash. When I use Sonic I always have a hard time to punish my opponents. I really, really scared to use his down air off the cliff, it's really hard for me to react fast.

 

[TriTails]

Sonic's F-smash is actually safe on shield with mediocre knockback and damage. The end lag's pretty short, unless they patched it in 1.0.7 (1.0.4 Sonic's F-smash is safe on shield).

I don't feel that way. Sonic feels fluid with low lags. The only thing that would lag him a lot would be U-smash, D-smash, Homing Attack, and landing lags, but that's about it.

Sonic's D-air is pretty neat at edgeguarding actually. All I need to do is just to use the move, and then start mashing the jump button, and Spring Jump back to safety. His vertical recovery is extremely great.

 

[mario123007]

Sonic's F-smash is actually safe on shield with mediocre knockback and damage. The end lag's pretty short, unless they patched it in 1.0.7 (1.0.4 Sonic's F-smash is safe on shield).

I don't feel that way. Sonic feels fluid with low lags. The only thing that would lag him a lot would be U-smash, D-smash, Homing Attack, and landing lags, but that's about it.

Sonic's D-air is pretty neat at edgeguarding actually. All I need to do is just to use the move, and then start mashing the jump button, and Spring Jump back to safety. His vertical recovery is extremely great.

They seem to have reduce his back throw knockback in the newest patch......

 

[TriTails]

Well, that's one ridiculous thing away (He rolls backwards so far yet it has above-average knockback? Wut?). But remember that his U-smash is also pretty crazy in knockback department. I'd watch it.

 

[mario123007]

Well, that's one ridiculous thing away (He rolls backwards so far yet it has above-average knockback? Wut?). But remember that his U-smash is also pretty crazy in knockback department. I'd watch it.

Oh yeah, his Up Smash, I really love that move, but if I remember it right, they nerfed his Up Smash's knock back too?

 

[TriTails]

Really?

I don't remember killing later with it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The following are Sonic's changes, as of update 1.0.6.

• Back throw deals considerably less knockback, weakening one of Sonic's most potent kill moves.
• Spin Dash now deals 7% instead of 10% during the rolling hitbox; the jumping hitbox now deals 3% instead of 6%. This results in a full Spin Dash combo doing 6% less overall.

 

[mario123007]

The following are Sonic's changes, as of update 1.0.6.

• Back throw deals considerably less knockback, weakening one of Sonic's most potent kill moves.
• Spin Dash now deals 7% instead of 10% during the rolling hitbox; the jumping hitbox now deals 3% instead of 6%. This results in a full Spin Dash combo doing 6% less overall.

Yep, their nerfed all right...

 

[TriTails]

My point still sticks out, watch out for the U-smash.

Oh, and by the way, at what percents does the Spin Dash -> U-air -> Spring Jump -> U-air and U-throw -> Spring Jump -> U-air work at Rosalina? I may need to test them first...

 

[mario123007]

My point still sticks out, watch out for the U-smash.

Oh, and by the way, at what percents does the Spin Dash -> U-air -> Spring Jump -> U-air and U-throw -> Spring Jump -> U-air work at Rosalina? I may need to test them first...

Totally...

 

[TriTails]

Not now though. Maybe tommorow.

 

[mario123007]

Not now though. Maybe tommorow.

I mean, you totally have to watch out for Sonic's Up Smash.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Sonic must've turned lazy with his discussion period being so empty. Still, I did get a few ratio inputs, so I at least have an overall average for the Rosalina vs. Sonic match-up.

[50:50]

The match-up seems even, but we'll have to try again at a later date.

We're now at the quarterfinal discussion period for round 1, as next up on our list are the three Mii fighters. First, we'll be analyzing Rosalina's match-up against the Mii Brawler.

 

[mario123007]

Sonic must've turned lazy with his discussion period being so empty. Still, I did get a few ratio inputs, so I at least have an overall average for the Rosalina vs. Sonic match-up.

[50:50]

The match-up seems even, but we'll have to try again at a later date.

We're now at the quarterfinal discussion period for round 1, as next up on our list are the three Mii fighters. First, we'll be analyzing Rosalina's match-up against the Mii Brawler.

Uh... Mii Brawler has a lot of custom moves, how can I put a solid MU ratio when there's many custom combinations?

 

[TriTails]

Few things about Sonic I forgot to add:
- U-smash kills Rosalina at 97% uncharged without DI at 3DS' Omega Battlefield (Halberd lovers. Take note)
- Spin Dash + U-air works at almost any percentages, but it seems to have something to do with situations. I ever get it pulled off at like 200% yet Rosalina sometimes fall out at like 110%. It's all about timing and skill. Seems to be easier with Luma in path though. odd.
- Spin Dash + U-air + Spring Jump + U-air works until 105% (Maybe slightly below). Not too sure on the minimum. And it almost always kill Rosalina when it successfully connects the second U-air. Be careful.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Uh... Mii Brawler has a lot of custom moves, how can I put a solid MU ratio when there's many custom combinations?

This is partly why I saved the Miis for last. Of course, Palutena herself had her own unique custom combinations as well.

Anyway, when in doubt, just try to analyze how well Rosalina can deal with each of the Mii Brawler's attacks. But I can promise you that in round 2, there will be a scoring category for default specials only.

 

[mario123007]

This is partly why I saved the Miis for last. Of course, Palutena herself had her own unique custom combinations as well.

Anyway, when in doubt, just try to analyze how well Rosalina can deal with each of the Mii Brawler's attacks. But I can promise you that in round 2, there will be a scoring category for default specials only.

I kind of forgot each of Mii Brawlers special. So I might take a break for this MU for now.

 

[tconan]

I have almost zero experience with Mii Brawler, so I don't think I can do the usual list of pros and cons...
1 Mii Brawler Pro: He can kill Rosalina with a down throw to helicopter kick up b near the ledge at 30% or something ridiculous like that...

 

[TriTails]

Y'all need to thank Mr. Sakurai for patching up One-Inch Punch .

 

[Karinole]

If we're talking non-customs Mii Brawler doesn't have some of his best tools and won't usually be used in tournament, so I'll give my take on this as if we're using customs.

Custom rosalina has a lot more zoning potential which is very good of keeping the Brawler out. Brawler does, however, have amazing kill moves especially the helicopter kick which can kill a character as light as Rosalina very early. Brawler's short limbs can have a bit of trouble getting to her through luma and she can wall him out pretty well.

60:40

 

[Alacion]

Rosalina/Zelda even? You guys have an awful system for determining MUs by allowing deluded opinions to sway the ratios.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina/Zelda even? You guys have an awful system for determining MUs by allowing deluded opinions to sway the ratios.

This "will" change for round 2, which begins in June.

 

[mario123007]

Rosalina/Zelda even? You guys have an awful system for determining MUs by allowing deluded opinions to sway the ratios.

That's everyone's ratio combined...

 

[Alacion]

That's everyone's ratio combined...

Okay first of all, anybody will tell you there is no possible way Zelda is even with Rosalina. The fact that people are saying Zelda loses 30:70 AND wins 70:30 really tells you how wrong some of these opinions are.

 

[mario123007]

Okay first of all, anybody will tell you there is no possible way Zelda is even with Rosalina. The fact that people are saying Zelda loses 30:70 AND wins 70:30 really tells you how wrong some of these opinions are.

So, how do you think of my ratio? Do think this MU is favor for Zelda or Rosalina?

This "will" change for round 2, which begins in June.

I am have a lot of free time in June

 

[Alacion]

So, how do you think of my ratio? Do think this MU is favor for Zelda or Rosalina?

I don't see your ratio but in my opinion Rosalina wins it but it's hard for me to say where. 45:55 to 40:60 for sure, either one works but with customs on I have no doubt 40:60. With the reverse Luma edgeguard, Zelda will struggle even more for sure. Gotta hopefully SDI downward and up air the Luma before taking obscene amounts of % or dying altogether.

 

[mario123007]

I don't see your ratio but in my opinion Rosalina wins it but it's hard for me to say where. 45:55 to 40:60 for sure, either one works but with customs on I have no doubt 40:60. With the reverse Luma edgeguard, Zelda will struggle even more for sure. Gotta hopefully SDI downward and up air the Luma before taking obscene amounts of % or dying altogether.

You can see ratios in the first post of this thread you know that right? I think I didn't set a ratio in that MU...
Oh yeah, lest there's confusion, ratio should be Rosalina on the left, her opponent's ratio on the right in this thread.

 

[TriTails]

Oh yeah, lest there's confusion, ratio should be Rosalina on the left, her opponent's ratio on the left in this thread.

Uh...

I believe you meant, her opponents ratio on the right, sir.

 

[mario123007]

Uh...

I believe you meant, her opponents ratio on the right, sir.

Fixed

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Can we save Zelda for next time? Also, Zelda's discussion period here was before the 1.0.6 update, so the discussions may be outdated now.

Anyway, with that said, today is Mii Brawler's last day. Next up will be Mii Swordfighter, followed by Mii Gunner. And starting next Sunday (5/24) will be the intermission period.