Rolls seem problematic in this game

[PizzaWenisaur]

@ Prawn you're ridiculous.
EDIT: Let me rephrase, I find you kind of ridiculous...

[etc]

I know that if someone rolls away from my Jigglypuff, it is suddenly "IT SEEMS WE ARE AT AN IMPASSE," because she has no options that move quickly enough to catch average-or-better rolls, and that doesn't seem healthy for the scene, at least on a spectator's level. While I don't think that it is especially crippling to her, it certainly does take away a sense of pressure in a lot of situations, and there are many characters that have it a -lot- worse.

[etc]

[etc]

Now, when someone rolls away that is when rolling seems too strong.
Shulk, because of his dash attack speed and his defult run speed, is too slow to punish this. All of his aerials are pretty slow too. If he goes into Monado-Run he could probably get a grab. But Shulk doesn't have grabs that lead to combos or kills. Mario could probably get a dash attack or a grab (perhaps). But neither leads to something significant. And the fact that this game doesn't have momentum conservation means that, in general, it's a lot harder to punish rolls with aerials.

[etc]

I said that on page five of this thread ( 10 pages ago ). But I'm sorry 'cause if I don't got no good 'ole fashion ethos, then my point is invalid.

 

[Prawn]

@ Prawn you're ridiculous.
EDIT: Let me rephrase, I find you kind of ridiculous...





I said that on page five of this thread ( 10 pages ago ). But I'm sorry 'cause if I don't got no good 'ole fashion ethos, then my point is invalid.

To be fair this whole rolling away hypothetical scenario is silly anyway, if you have a bad dash speed they could just dash away(actually probably the better option) if they wanted to.


Regardless shulk is ass lol why we judgin the validity of stuff on how it does vs puff and shulk

 

[QLJ1986]

I personally feel that rolls should have either more recovery or less invincibility. I make hard reads on my friend and my punishes still don't work. It's very annoying to deal with...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't think Shulk has much room to complain when he can make himself about as fast as Sonic or make his individual hits the most damaging in the game (when you compare reliability on landing them). One thing that both Jigglypuff and Shulk also have going for them is that they have the ability to go wayyy deep offstage for edgeguarding, so they often get a lot more for putting an opponent near the ledge than most characters, so there's that, too. I don't think either of them are bad characters (probably not -great- characters, but not bad, in my limited understanding of the game).

The problem is not only that they can roll away and force things to go back to the neutral position incredibly easily, but that giving significant chase often allows the opponent to turn it against you with a roll toward/through you. Try to overly prepare for that and the roll backward has pretty much no repercussion (not even lost stage control), and this can be done out of a run or walk or shield, so anytime you have to confront it, you also have to deal with potential attacks on top of that. It's a situation where in many cases the only 100% reliable option is often to wait, respond, and try to create an advantage later, making your own rolls look useful, comfortable, and safe, even if you'd like to be reading the opponent and making more out of them even in neutral. As such, it's a security blanket that is entirely safe against some characters and is advantageous enough on the rest of them that mixing it in here and there still serves to shut a lot of options down (see: Brawl spotdodge).

 

[GeZ]

I don't think Shulk has much room to complain when he can make himself about as fast as Sonic or make his individual hits the most damaging in the game (when you compare reliability on landing them). One thing that both Jigglypuff and Shulk also have going for them is that they have the ability to go wayyy deep offstage for edgeguarding, so they often get a lot more for putting an opponent near the ledge than most characters, so there's that, too. I don't think either of them are bad characters (probably not -great- characters, but not bad, in my limited understanding of the game).

The problem is not only that they can roll away and force things to go back to the neutral position incredibly easily, but that giving significant chase often allows the opponent to turn it against you with a roll toward/through you. Try to overly prepare for that and the roll backward has pretty much no repercussion (not even lost stage control), and this can be done out of a run or walk or shield, so anytime you have to confront it, you also have to deal with potential attacks on top of that. It's a situation where in many cases the only 100% reliable option is often to wait, respond, and try to create an advantage later, making your own rolls look useful, comfortable, and safe, even if you'd like to be reading the opponent and making more out of them even in neutral. As such, it's a security blanket that is entirely safe against some characters and is advantageous enough on the rest of them that mixing it in here and there still serves to shut a lot of options down (see: Brawl spotdodge).

So what is your personal opinion on this game? Do you enjoy it?

I'm trying to give it a chance but every time I play it I just wish I was playing P:M or Melee

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well I know I wasn't inquired but I'm an active member of all communities and

man IDK if this makes sense but this is sorta like my chill game. I play it serious and invest into the meta but I'm generally pretty chill when I play it. I play P:M/Melee depending on my mood for fast-paced stuff but I think Smash 4 has a place in my gameplan. It's not half as floaty as Brawl, rolls are a bit annoying but linear enough for me to deal with, and hitting people is really satisfying.

I guess it really depends on what you're looking for but, anyone who liked Brawl even in the slightest will love this, and even those who didn't (like me) can squeeze stuff out of it. I guess it's all about mentality and stuff.

 

[GeZ]

Well I know I wasn't inquired but I'm an active member of all communities and

man IDK if this makes sense but this is sorta like my chill game. I play it serious and invest into the meta but I'm generally pretty chill when I play it. I play P:M/Melee depending on my mood for fast-paced stuff but I think Smash 4 has a place in my gameplan. It's not half as floaty as Brawl, rolls are a bit annoying but linear enough for me to deal with, and hitting people is really satisfying.

I guess it really depends on what you're looking for but, anyone who liked Brawl even in the slightest will love this, and even those who didn't (like me) can squeeze stuff out of it. I guess it's all about mentality and stuff.

I can sort of agree with with people who enjoyed brawl will enjoy this. One thing I gotta credit this game for is making combos much more accessible than in other smash games, which is a really good thing, since so far the Smash series hasn't been known for being entry level.

I just wish we could get the strategy and input and yomi of Melee and P:M with these easier inputs. /sigh

Not being able to DD and WD kill me. It's like, defining features in smash games.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I can sort of agree with with people who enjoyed brawl will enjoy this. One thing I gotta credit this game for is making combos much more accessible than in other smash games, which is a really good thing, since so far the Smash series hasn't been known for being entry level.

I just wish we could get the strategy and input and yomi of Melee and P:M with these easier inputs. /sigh

Not being able to DD and WD kill me. It's like, defining features in smash games.

I feel like Wavedashing, in the distant future AKA the never reality, will be its own thing independent of airdodging since I like the way airdodge was implemented in this game.

Gonna be frank I wouldn't mind a mini-airdash button alongside this game's airdodge if it had no invul or something like that LOL.

This game, unlike Brawl IMO, is HEALTHY entry level in that it rewards stuff better, and combos are both existent, accessible, and proper. In the deep future we'll have the perfect game. Or not, IDK. But I feel like if they increase the difficulty of the games from here on out it will be a natural transition for the playerbase. If they don't, so be it. 64 to Melee was really jarring for me.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So what is your personal opinion on this game? Do you enjoy it?

I'm trying to give it a chance but every time I play it I just wish I was playing P:M or Melee

I do enjoy it! There are toxic elements in Melee and (to a lesser extent) PM that take away from my enjoyment. Every Smash game has problems on a fundamental level, but I think Smash 4 probably has the least and happens to cater the most to what I enjoy in fighting games. With such a young metagame, that could certainly change even in the near future, but, in the meantime, I'm certainly really into it.

 

[GeZ]

I feel like Wavedashing, in the distant future AKA the never reality, will be its own thing independent of airdodging since I like the way airdodge was implemented in this game.

Gonna be frank I wouldn't mind a mini-airdash button alongside this game's airdodge if it had no invul or something like that LOL.

This game, unlike Brawl IMO, is HEALTHY entry level in that it rewards stuff better, and combos are both existent, accessible, and proper. In the deep future we'll have the perfect game. Or not, IDK. But I feel like if they increase the difficulty of the games from here on out it will be a natural transition for the playerbase. If they don't, so be it. 64 to Melee was really jarring for me.

I guess? Aerial mobility leaves a bad taste in my mouth, as very few games can do it with proper risk/ reward.

Also I think that one of the worst things in this game are the airdodges.

I do enjoy it! There are toxic elements in Melee and (to a lesser extent) PM that take away from my enjoyment. Every Smash games has problems on a fundamental level, but I think Smash 4 probably has the least and happens to cater the most to what I enjoy in fighting games. With such a young metagame, that could certainly change even in the near future, but, in the meantime, I'm certainly really into it.

Huh. Alright. I can agree with some of that at least.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well by "non-invul airdash" I mean the equivalent of a Melee air dodge.

Dodges in this game, at least in the air, are fundamentally more balanced because you get 22 frames of landing lag, you can cancel it if you do it right but that means you have to do it at the beginning of a shorthop meaning it's kind of linear. Really it's just that you have to actually gamble when dodging into the ground and I think that's perfectly okay. It also lets characters with virtually no recovery mixups add one if they're smart, and it's not incredibly abusable in that regard (all opinion but yeah).

My problem with air-dodging in Melee isn't what it leads to, it's that I find it's very rarely used for its purpose and that it doesn't really...well, help that much. Sure you get invul but you're made immediately helpless in a game like Melee where aerials are really really good. But again, unintended meta etc.

I don't disagree about DD and/or WDing but, I'd rather the latter be implemented more...smoothly.

But hey, so far I'm enjoying the game!

 

[-LzR-]

SSB64 is the best! No bull**** like spotdodges or airdodges and rolls are very risky to use, but when used correctly they are amazing.

 

[GeZ]

Well by "non-invul airdash" I mean the equivalent of a Melee air dodge.

Dodges in this game, at least in the air, are fundamentally more balanced because you get 22 frames of landing lag, you can cancel it if you do it right but that means you have to do it at the beginning of a shorthop meaning it's kind of linear. Really it's just that you have to actually gamble when dodging into the ground and I think that's perfectly okay. It also lets characters with virtually no recovery mixups add one if they're smart, and it's not incredibly abusable in that regard (all opinion but yeah).

Dodging into the ground is a gamble, yeah, but when you're in the air, on the flip side of a combo, it can really neuter followups. It's bad design (i'm relatively sure) because it removes a fair amount of the disadvantage from that situation, as smash has been doing for a few games now, and I really don't agree with that. Pressing advantage is a huge part of fighting games, and to make it less and less important is removing a sort of baseline law of interaction.

Also Melee airdodge was great because it is usable as an airdodge, just not for free. You can dodge through someone, but if they expect it or you use it wrong you get punished. That's true as well in Smash 4 but to a lesser extent as the Smash 4 air dodge is safer, and more omni applicable.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dodging into the ground is a gamble, yeah, but when you're in the air, on the flip side of a combo, it can really neuter followups. It's bad design (i'm relatively sure) because it removes a fair amount of the disadvantage from that situation, as smash has been doing for a few games now, and I really don't agree with that. Pressing advantage is a huge part of fighting games, and to make it less and less important is removing a sort of baseline law of interaction.

Also Melee airdodge was great because it is usable as an airdodge, just not for free. You can dodge through someone, but if they expect it or you use it wrong you get punished. That's true as well in Smash 4 but to a lesser extent as the Smash 4 air dodge is safer, and more omni applicable.

Now, the thing about followups is....they're relatively easy to delay to match the timing of the airdodge, and since a lot of this game's combos don't send characters really high (due to how the knockback in this game is) a lot of combos start and end near the...well, ground. Granted this obviously doesn't apply to the 50 or so character wide cast but the characters I play in particular have low % combos that don't usually take the opponent high enough for them to airdodge and not land right after.

I guess there's obvious variance but like any other defensive mechanic in this game it's fairly easy to wait out. It also puts emphasis on multi-hit aerials that can be thrown out in response to an airdodge, or long lingering hitboxes (which are now usable in combos and finishers a lot more thanks to the SDI nerf!)

I've never had an issue with it here, in Brawl I did but here it's never bothered me just due to how combos are in this game in general.

Also Melee's airdodge isn't useless but it's far from ideal, it isn't really flexible and I don't really SEE it a lot. It kind of does its job, sort of, but most people use it for another purpose and would rather throw out an aerial to break away from pressure because of the way airdodges in Melee are, I find. At least I would (especially with Luigi and that 3 frame Nair)

 

[Tagxy]

Few issues, but moreso providing an alternative perspective. But first

If anything, a lot of trends seem to suggest that the metagame revolves around the threat/existence of these rolls. Let's take the most recent Japanese tier list, for example--

Dont think it's worth quoting a two month old tier list. There's also context to that list, those who created it felt even characters as low as D tier could win tournaments. Moreso then demonstrating balance its importance is in expressesing the volatility were in atm.

In any case

The reason the chaingrabs were a major driving factor is because the risk/reward ratio was greatly skewed in their favor. If you're an Ice Climbers player, with a dumb Nana to babysit and the worst (or close) grab range in the game, it wasn't easy to land a grab, but with most characters' spotdodge-beating tools being love taps like Meta Knight's tilts, Falco Jab/N-Air, and the like, you could afford to land 1 out of 6 grabs because while they're getting ~10% out of your misses (if that; people are often tripping over themselves [literally!] to get away from you), that one grab nets you a stock, and the desyncs made their punishes that much less likely. In Falco's case, he had a much superior close-range game and could get himself a guaranteed 60% with pressure afterward, so the trade also seems super-worth it.

Dedede wasn't a big deal as the metagame progressed because he didn't have much to land his grab with (despite his obnoxious spotdodge and grab range) on the best characters. Characters like Snake and Olimar don't really have chaingrabs to work with. Watching many high-level Brawl matches seems to make the (ab)use of spotdodges verrrry widespread. It was rolling the dice, and it often paid off, so people were stuck using the reliable stuff, and I think that's likely what's going to happen here (though I really hope it gets better, whether through greater game knowledge or a future patch).

While interesting I find it odd that instead of placing fault with the risk/reward skew from winning the exchange, it is instead placed on what's acknowledged to be a punishable mechanic. Though I mained one of the two great satan's with an outstanding spot dodge and chaingrab I feel this isnt a fair assessment from the opposite perspective (I'm aware when you played ESAM you had frequent complaints of spot dodging). Pikachu lost spot dodge exchanges frequently, more frequently then not I would say. It lost to any multihit or long lasting hitbox. However it still became an important tool for pika for two reasons, the first being it was his only reliable way of beating grab on dash ins and the second because of the overbearing punishes he recieved from winning an exchange. If rewards were leveled it wouldnt have been an issue.

 

[Spak]

I do enjoy it! There are toxic elements in Melee and (to a lesser extent) PM that take away from my enjoyment. Every Smash game has problems on a fundamental level, but I think Smash 4 probably has the least and happens to cater the most to what I enjoy in fighting games. With such a young metagame, that could certainly change even in the near future, but, in the meantime, I'm certainly really into it.

"Toxic elements"? Such as?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Few issues, but moreso providing an alternative perspective. But first

Dont think it's worth quoting a two month old tier list. There's also context to that list, those who created it felt even characters as low as D tier could win tournaments. Moreso then demonstrating balance its importance is in expressesing the volatility were in atm.

In any case

While interesting I find it odd that instead of placing fault with the risk/reward skew from winning the exchange, it is instead placed on what's acknowledged to be a punishable mechanic. Though I mained one of the two great satan's with an outstanding spot dodge and chaingrab I feel this isnt a fair assessment from the opposite perspective (I'm aware when you played ESAM you had frequent complaints of spot dodging). Pikachu lost spot dodge exchanges frequently, more frequently then not I would say. It lost to any multihit or long lasting hitbox. However it still became an important tool for pika for two reasons, the first being it was his only reliable way of beating grab on dash ins and the second because of the overbearing punishes he recieved from winning an exchange. If rewards were leveled it wouldnt have been an issue.

It's the only tier list I am aware of, but maybe that's because I haven't looked hard enough. If you have a more recent one, by all means, point it out--I'm all about more relevant data.

I don't blame players who live to win, I blame the game for having such a degenerative tactic that rewards luck as much as skill in many cases. Almost every character has an outstanding spotdodge in Brawl; the low animation frames overall is just as much of an offender as the high percent of invincibility frames. That means that moves with an IASA frame worse than 24 after the initial hitbox are suddenly unreliable spacing tools because a spotdodge comes out faster and gets anywhere from slight frame advantage to whatever punish they want, depending on the "lateness" of the attack. It's not something you could react to in neutral because waiting for a Frame-2 move that lasts for twenty-five frames in order to punish it means you put yourself at risk of Snake's 21% F-Tilt, a chaingrab from ICs/Falco/Pikachu, or the myriad of fast and powerful pokes from a lot of the cast. The bad characters end up rolling the dice with worse punishes or few-to-zero moves that were reliable against spotdodges in neutral, while the good characters had pokes that could safely challenge the spotdodges without nearly as much risk or had punishes so steep that it didn't matter if they lost those exchanges often.

My primary Brawl practice buddy was a rather good Falco, so I wasn't just suddenly upset about them when I played ESAM. It's just sad to see what would otherwise be great and useful spacing tools that would prop up the bad characters a decent bit become wholly unreliable because spotdodges were so incredible on the frame data side of things. I have no ill will toward the game or its scene, but it's pretty obvious to me that the general goodness of spotdodging was a primary reason that the tier list ended up as it did, as well as why the neutral game in Brawl often plays out in spotdodge wars.

 

[Judo777]

You are not entitle to be able to punish every option in the game on reaction. Nor are you actually entitled to punish every option on read (although you usually can). People are allowed to make options that don't necessarily spell punishment and don't guarantee (if you make the correct followup option) a worse position.

I don't see how a roll is any better than a fox trot or a dash in a direction (unless being point blank pressured where the invincibility matters, but its vulnerable on start up so they at least had to time their invincibility).

If someone rolls away from you, they DO forfeit stage control (because you now have more stage on your side and are further from the ledge). So if they roll away from you, ALMOST EVERY if not every character in the game can dash forward at the same speed as a roll, you may not be able to punish the roll, but you can usually cover the same distance they did in the same amount of time. If done correctly, you will have placed them in exactly the same position they were in before the roll, and have more stage. In doing so the only thing their roll did, was lose them stage.

Overswarm and I had a conversation about some of this not long ago, where he said Bowser can't punish a roll away (which is true) because hes too slow. But Bowser can chase the roll to recreate the same situation as before, with gained stage control. People may not be aware, but smash does have similar properties to some other fighters. The ledge IS in a sense a corner. It's not exactly the same but many of the properties are the same. Few characters like their back being to the ledge, (tho some don't mind similar to how some characters don't mind being in a corner in streetfighter).

This was apparent in brawl when playing with Luigi (who i always said played a little like Zangief) where his goal is to slowly, carefully approach his opponent until they run out of retreating space, then try to punish them as they try to pass over or through you. Practically no characters airspeed is better than almost any characters dash speed (or fastest movement speed) so you can't simply jump clear over them, and running through or rolling through is dangerous. Granted some characters DO have free ways around a character (like Jiggs) in the same way some characters had almost free passes out of corners in fighters.

Rolling away almost the same thing as back dashing in streetfighter, its not too powerful even against characters that can't punish it, and the solutions are the same, just step forward, because they have committed to their option so you can proceed without worry to yours.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The potential trouble with that comparison is that it's generally WAY easier for most characters to "get out of the corner" in a platform fighter than in a traditional fighter, and the threatening burst range of characters tends to be directly tied to how mobile they are. For example, if Diddy uses double-jump Forward-B, most characters simply do not have the speed to catch up to him, and even if they do, a banana in his hand makes his landing a whole lot safer.

Luigi has never been very good in a Smash game because of the relative ease of avoiding him and his lack of mobility in the air (a very important thing in Smash). There is no true "corner" in Smash like there is in Street Fighter, so he can't do his Zangief thing nearly as reliably as he'd like. Neutral tools are far more important in this game compared to Street Fighter, as well, since it's so much easier to reset a situation back to neutral here, and because you can't constantly keep up pressure or damage when you manage to get in.

That said, while we're on the Street Fighter comparisons, imagine if Blanka's command forward dash were completely invincible for most of the duration. That would most certainly discourage burst range tools like slides, jump-ins and rush-in attacks, because they can suddenly be turned around on you, largely hampering the usefulness of what would otherwise be intelligent and safe spacing tools. Oh, you wanted to pressure him? Now you're in the corner, and he didn't even have to interact with you in order to do it. Now he's in on you, and your Dudley Forward-Fierce has become a liability, getting you punished because he decided to throw this out at the same time. This really hurts characters who heavily lean on those kinds of tools in order to work their normal gameplan, and it becomes even more of a headache when you have to deal with a great backdash, Focus Attacks, invincible wake-ups, and his general attack and spacing options. It ends up turning the Blanka matchup on its head, screwing up many charge characters and making his matchups very polarized.

Now imagine that every character had that command forward dash. Large parts of otherwise-great tools would become risky and obsolete because the threat of that option keeps them in check. While no comparison will be perfect (and comparing spacing tools between Street Fighter and Smash requires QUITE a stretch), this is largely the perceived problem. It runs the risk of steering the metagame toward one that revolves around a couple of low-risk-high-reward options, which many people would say reduces overall depth.

 

[CyberZixx]

I was salty about rolls but in a game like smash 4 with so little movement options, I view them like back/forward dashing in SF4, another low movement game. I roll a bit more myself now, and it is punishable.

 

[Quillion]

I was salty about rolls but in a game like smash 4 with so little movement options, I view them like back/forward dashing in SF4, another low movement game. I roll a bit more myself now, and it is punishable.

But Smash is SUPPOSED to be about higher movement. That's the gimmick of Smash that sets it apart from other fighting games (that and the unique knockback-based system).

You can't just compare Smash to Street Fighter, they're two different things. And at least SF4 had the FADC to reward for skill and provide followups.

 

[Deleted member]

Certainly hope they fix this, I'm glad you made this thread OP cause I've been having this issue since the game launched for Wii U and wasn't sure if others felt the same way.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm mixed on this issue but I'm leaning towards it being fine. I've kind of adapted and funny enough there are really flashy ways to punish rolls.

Falcon's dashgrab, for instance. Pivot tilts....

But wow did this thread get meta like, bang.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pivot tilts often lose to people just...hanging out (though it's still useful for hitting any movement toward you, sure). As for Falcon's Dash Grab, let me know when roughly 80% of the cast gets a quick burst range option anything close to that distance/speed.

Again, that's the trouble--It may make the metagame revolve around characters with those specific tools, throwing so many others under the bus.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Pivot tilts often lose to people just...hanging out. As for Falcon's Dash Grab, let me know when roughly 80% of the cast gets a quick burst range option anything close to that.

Hey, it's a start! It's just something I've started natively doing with him and it's pretty funny!

Also I usually pivot tilt when they start trying to roll behind me cause they just roll themselves to the edge lol. It also works after Ganon flame choke so maybe playing Ganon has helped me tone my punish game in general up a bit.

I just think most people who roll a lot could easily be doing things that are way more advantageous for them defensively so they're really just postponing the inevitable unless they're actually mixing it up!

Maybe when Smash 4 MINUS drops everyone will have Falcon's dash grab LOL

EDIT: Oh and I understand the idea that people with tools to punish that will dominate but it just seems more and more like an online only gimmick the more I look at it. Excessive rolling, anyways. I'm a man of waiting and seeing, myself. I think as people explore the game more they're inevitably going to get more creative and find way better options with what they got to the point of where rolling won't be a go-to, it already really isn't.

 

[CyberZixx]

But Smash is SUPPOSED to be about higher movement. That's the gimmick of Smash that sets it apart from other fighting games (that and the unique knockback-based system).

You can't just compare Smash to Street Fighter, they're two different things. And at least SF4 had the FADC to reward for skill and provide followups.

I agree that movement is a great part of smash and why I like Melee/Pm the most but the first smash game never had movement options, so to say it is supposed to be about movement is disingenuous.

 

[Chuva]

From my experience playing with a friend of mine both online and offline, rolls are only problematic on wifi. He even stopped a lot of his rolling habits online because he knows on offline it's almost like a different matchup.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

From my experience playing with a friend of mine both online and offline, rolls are only problematic on wifi. He even stopped a lot of his rolling habits online because he knows on offline it's almost like a different matchup.

Matches with a friend of yours don't account for the entirety of high-level play, though. Go to a tournament and eat some people up, get us some videos.

 

[TTTTTsd]

For the record @ TheReflexWonder I don't disagree with anything you said. I'm pretty neutral on it RIGHT NOW but lord knows maybe in 5 months I'll call myself an idiot or something. I do think characters that have an easier time punishing rolls will probably be naturally better in the long run but that gap could thin if rolls stop being a reliable option whether it's through meta evolution or game alterations. Dunno! I can't predict this game's meta after seeing G&W kill with a Uair windbox on the middle of a stage against Fox. I have no idea where this game is going.

BTW you're totally the goat with Wario in P:M.

 

[Tagxy]

It's the only tier list I am aware of, but maybe that's because I haven't looked hard enough. If you have a more recent one, by all means, point it out--I'm all about more relevant data.

I don't blame players who live to win, I blame the game for having such a degenerative tactic that rewards luck as much as skill in many cases. Almost every character has an outstanding spotdodge in Brawl; the low animation frames overall is just as much of an offender as the high percent of invincibility frames. That means that moves with an IASA frame worse than 24 after the initial hitbox are suddenly unreliable spacing tools because a spotdodge comes out faster and gets anywhere from slight frame advantage to whatever punish they want, depending on the "lateness" of the attack. It's not something you could react to in neutral because waiting for a Frame-2 move that lasts for twenty-five frames in order to punish it means you put yourself at risk of Snake's 21% F-Tilt, a chaingrab from ICs/Falco/Pikachu, or the myriad of fast and powerful pokes from a lot of the cast. The bad characters end up rolling the dice with worse punishes or few-to-zero moves that were reliable against spotdodges in neutral, while the good characters had pokes that could safely challenge the spotdodges without nearly as much risk or had punishes so steep that it didn't matter if they lost those exchanges often.

My primary Brawl practice buddy was a rather good Falco, so I wasn't just suddenly upset about them when I played ESAM. It's just sad to see what would otherwise be great and useful spacing tools that would prop up the bad characters a decent bit become wholly unreliable because spotdodges were so incredible on the frame data side of things. I have no ill will toward the game or its scene, but it's pretty obvious to me that the general goodness of spotdodging was a primary reason that the tier list ended up as it did, as well as why the neutral game in Brawl often plays out in spotdodge wars.

That is the most recent, I wasnt clear I think. I meant two months into the games meta and two weeks into wiiU I feel were in a very uncomfortable place to draw such conclusions on placements let alone why characters have placed where they are. For instance I saw Will dash in ground pounded rolls into oblivion, even if he caught a shield two ground pounds was enough to break it, and in a previous tournament I saw Trela net kills on rolls with charizards flare blitz. These are two strong ways of dealing with rolls that are tournament proven yet both characters are in the lower tiers (I think any character with a projectile or decent dash attack has adequate tools to handle rolls if nothing else).

I'm not sure we're in agreement spot dodges utility in neutral, and that may come from a particular distinction. In my experience the spot dodge wars that tended to happen in Brawl werent part of neutral; it was usually the result of losing an exchange that led to every character using their best panic option which certainly were spot dodges for Brawl. In Melee the best panic option was shine (default spot dodge for the rest) and in 64 it was Pikachus Quick Attack (default roll?). As far as panic options go spot dodge was very good, likely the best in broad terms smash has seen (but extremely inferior to shine and slightly inferior to 64 QA). However panic option spot dodge wars mightve looked silly but they were mostly fair since every character had the same option and most characters had at least one option to beat it.

In true neutral this also made spot dodges risky, as an example pikachus spot dodge approaches were his best or second best option yet there was a fair chance to lose the exchange, which I guess leads to the point I was trying to make. The issue seems to stem from the rewards certain characters received for succeeding vs losing an exchange instigated with spot dodge, which I feel is being misattributed to the spot dodges themselves. A question worth asking is would this be an issue if punishment of spot dodges were greater and/or rewards for its use lessened? I agree with Judo in that not every option is entitled to being punished on reaction, and in a more objective sense I feel removing spot dodges would do more harm then good for those who relied on them for offense.

Tangential but some time ago I also tried to find common attributes in the game's top caste and how Brawl's metagame developed by looking at each character individually. Excluding non-character mechanics like ledge invincibility, etc. the conclusion I came to was its slower pace was a product of projectiles and swords; with diddy, falco, and olimar having clear cut best projectiles in neutral and MK/Marth having their very safe swords. IC's and Snake could be considered projectile based but I think moreso the pace here was determined by the heavy risk/rewards that played in their favor.

Edit: Now that I think about it MK had shuttle loop which was also a superb panic option. In between shine and 64 QA imo.

 

[Chuva]

Matches with a friend of yours don't account for the entirety of high-level play, though. Go to a tournament and eat some people up, get us some videos.

Never did I claim that. But since you're into such mentality (which I agree), spare me the time and search for the plethora of high level play videos out there and tell me if rolls are really that problematic in an offline environment. Personally it doesn't seems to be the case.

If a go-to beginner's mechanic that is perceived to be the solution to a lot of simple situations felt ineffective in a friendly scenario, what does it tells you in a competitive high-level gameplay? It's called evidential paradigm, and while not 100% conclusive, it could be something to ponder. In fact, I did show TCU's grand-finals to casual friends yesterday and the first thing they said was: "whoa, they barely roll".

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Tagxy, the traits you're suggesting that separate the good characters from the not-good characters also share a very important property: They allow the user to attack people who could spotdodge at any moment without any significant risk involved. When the risk involves taking 50+% of guaranteed damage, being able to swing at an opponent without a lucky guessing getting you hurt badly is very important, and that's a common thread seen in the vast majority of neutral options used by the good characters/players.

Chuva, here's an example, even with a character who is really well-equipped to fight against it--

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3E5tQTBYak

Of course, this is merely one match/matchup, but I know it's been pretty prevalent in high-level matches.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I've seen some really hilarious roll-punish videos. And Jigglypuff can totally punish back rolls. It takes the hardest read ever, but it's really funny to see Jigglypuff run straight at someone and have them react by rolling away… only for Jigglypuff to jump in exactly where they're going to land and Rest. Ganondorf can deal with rolls too, actually. If a foe rolls away, Ganondorf can either Flame Choke or simply keep walking forward so the foe ends up back where they started with less stage. And relinquishing stage control to Ganondorf is not a good plan, not at all. Once he gets you offstage, you're pretty well done for; Smash 4's Volcano Kick edgeguard is real.

As for why Brawler would be high on tier lists? Well, it might have something to do with Onslaught being roughly equivalent to Pit's Upperdash Arm in roll-punishing utility, especially in 1.0.4 where it seems to connect more reliably (I've yet to have a CPU VI/SDI out of its multi-kick portion in v1.0.4). It also makes for a good, though a little difficult to set up, finisher against airborne foes, being able to KO at very reasonable percents thanks to dragging the foe up with you before launching them. Or it might have something to do with the One-Inch Punch. Or with the amazing KO power of the Helicopter Kick combined with its apparent relative safety for a KO move (if you miss, you can just angle yourself away). Or with the horizontal recovery and movement options offered by the Feint Jump.

Tagxy, the traits you're suggesting that separate the good characters from the not-good characters also share a very important property: They allow the user to attack people who could spotdodge at any moment without any significant risk involved. When the risk involves taking 50+% of guaranteed damage, being able to swing at an opponent without a lucky guessing getting you hurt badly is very important, and that's a common thread seen in the vast majority of neutral options in Brawl.

Chuva, here's an example, even with a character who is really well-equipped to fight against it--

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3E5tQTBYak

Of course, this is merely one match/matchup, but I know it's been pretty prevalent in high-level matches.

To be fair, you don't really punish a dash-dance in Melee either, and that's how those rolls were being used most of the time. I did see a lot of things whiffing due to rolls, but that's honestly not terribly unexpected when two characters with fast rolls go up against each other (granted it's more common in low-level play), and most of those attempted roll punishes looked like they were on reaction rather than on a read, and were noticeably too late much of the time. Still, the amount of rolling was rather ridiculous.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I've seen some really hilarious roll-punish videos. And Jigglypuff can totally punish back rolls. It takes the hardest read ever, but it's really funny to see Jigglypuff run straight at someone and have them react by rolling away… only for Jigglypuff to jump in exactly where they're going to land and Rest.

To be fair, you don't really punish a dash-dance in Melee either, and that's how those rolls were being used most of the time. I did see a lot of things whiffing due to rolls, but that's honestly not terribly unexpected when two characters with fast rolls go up against each other (granted it's more common in low-level play), and most of those attempted roll punishes looked like they were on reaction rather than on a read, and were noticeably too late much of the time. Still, the amount of rolling was rather ridiculous.

Jigglypuff cannot punish back rolls directly, even on a hard read. Unless you are overlapping/are directly above the opponent before they move backward and you are already moving forward AND their roll is worse than average, the only thing you can get is a sourspot Dash Attack (and if their roll is better than the average, you can't even get that). If you are that close, they should be shielding and/or doing an out-of-shield option to punish her poor range/disjoint, and there's always the case of rolling forward to counteract that. On-stage trades are almost always a losing proposition for Jigglypuff, and when you have to respect things like Yoshi's stretchy pokes, Diddy's F-Air/U-Air, and many others, you can't just hang out in that area without putting yourself at significant risk. It's not about panicking--It's about doing it when there is absolutely no risk to you. Sure, bad players will roll out of sheer panic, and those are punishable, but you can't rely on that in a tournament against smart people.

A huge part of high-level Melee is waiting for the opponent to make a mistake and then capitalizing on it. It is rare for such opportunities to happen without some significant bait or shortcoming from the opponent to make it happen. Yes, it's still largely just more mobile camping (surprise!). A key difference between that neutral position and this one is that potential opportunities for such a thing to happen in Melee often happen many times a second, while it's not nearly as often here, and when someone is "in" in Melee, it's significantly harder for the disadvantaged player to get things back to the neutral position unscathed.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Jigglypuff cannot punish back rolls directly, even on a hard read. Unless you are overlapping/are directly above the opponent before they move backward and you are already moving forward AND their roll is worse than average, the only thing you can get is a sourspot Dash Attack (and if their roll is better than the average, you can't even get that). If you are that close, they should be shielding and/or doing an out-of-shield option to punish her poor range/disjoint, and there's always the case of rolling forward to counteract that. On-stage trades are almost always a losing proposition for Jigglypuff, and when you have to respect things like Yoshi's stretchy pokes, Diddy's F-Air/U-Air, and many others, you can't just hang out in that area without putting yourself at significant risk. It's not about panicking--It's about doing it when there is absolutely no risk to you. Sure, bad players will roll out of sheer panic, and those are punishable, but you can't rely on that in a tournament against smart people.

It's definitely true that at that distance Jigglypuff should get punished for coming too close. But it seems like even a pretty decent player can sometimes be tricked into sitting in shield or straight back-rolling when they expect an attack and you make an empty approach. I agree Jigglypuff has serious trouble against back rolls and that she shouldn't make a habit of hanging out in that area regardless, but what can catch foes off-guard is just how much higher her aerial mobility is than her dash speed. And if the foe does a forward roll rather than the predicted back roll, a player with good reaction can turn their planned Rest into an empty jump instead, leaving both Jigglypuff and the foe unscathed. Additionally, rolling into Jigglypuff can be a very bad idea. (Yes, I know the linked vid is just for funnies. Still a bad idea to roll towards Jigglypuff because that can happen even if you don't happen to roll directly on top of her. All she has to do is hop backwards early enough in your roll.)

 

[Judo777]

The potential trouble with that comparison is that it's generally WAY easier for most characters to "get out of the corner" in a platform fighter than in a traditional fighter, and the threatening burst range of characters tends to be directly tied to how mobile they are. For example, if Diddy uses double-jump Forward-B, most characters simply do not have the speed to catch up to him, and even if they do, a banana in his hand makes his landing a whole lot safer.

Luigi has never been very good in a Smash game because of the relative ease of avoiding him and his lack of mobility in the air (a very important thing in Smash). There is no true "corner" in Smash like there is in Street Fighter, so he can't do his Zangief thing nearly as reliably as he'd like. Neutral tools are far more important in this game compared to Street Fighter, as well, since it's so much easier to reset a situation back to neutral here, and because you can't constantly keep up pressure or damage when you manage to get in.

That said, while we're on the Street Fighter comparisons, imagine if Blanka's command forward dash were completely invincible for most of the duration. That would most certainly discourage burst range tools like slides, jump-ins and rush-in attacks, because they can suddenly be turned around on you, largely hampering the usefulness of what would otherwise be intelligent and safe spacing tools. Oh, you wanted to pressure him? Now you're in the corner, and he didn't even have to interact with you in order to do it. Now he's in on you, and your Dudley Forward-Fierce has become a liability, getting you punished because he decided to throw this out at the same time. This really hurts characters who heavily lean on those kinds of tools in order to work their normal gameplan, and it becomes even more of a headache when you have to deal with a great backdash, Focus Attacks, invincible wake-ups, and his general attack and spacing options. It ends up turning the Blanka matchup on its head, screwing up many charge characters and making his matchups very polarized.

Now imagine that every character had that command forward dash. Large parts of otherwise-great tools would become risky and obsolete because the threat of that option keeps them in check. While no comparison will be perfect (and comparing spacing tools between Street Fighter and Smash requires QUITE a stretch), this is largely the perceived problem. It runs the risk of steering the metagame toward one that revolves around a couple of low-risk-high-reward options, which many people would say reduces overall depth.

No the reason Luigi has struggled in smash is that he is not able to hold any of the ground he gains. His traction has ruined his approach game because he loses any ground he gains by blocking. If Luigi didn't slide in brawl he would have been a much better character.

If Diddy kong had enough space to double jump, side b with a banana in hand, then how on earth were you pressuring him to begin with? That situation didn't have diddy in a bad spot getting toa better one, it had him going from a good spot to an equally good spot at the cost of him spending 4 seconds to do it.

That command dash you mentioned exists. It's teleports specifically akumas. And Akumas teleport (which can be canceled into ultra, and is a faster mobility option than most characters are capable of) has never been an extremely problematic mechanic. As opposed to rolls which are not faster than almost any characters mobility options.

I also slightly disagree with neutral tools being more important than a lot other elements in this game. Little Mac has INSANELY good neutral tools. But I don't find him to be a very stellar character.

Lastly I find airspeed not to be nearly as important as a strong moveset. Brawl was littered with high mobility bad move characters in lower tiers (jiggs, yoshi, squrtile, falcon, sonic, lucas) while there were plenty of poor mobility good move characters in the higher tiers (IC's, Olimar, Snake, to a lesser extent D3)

 

[GeZ]

That command dash you mentioned exists. It's teleports specifically akumas. And Akumas teleport (which can be canceled into ultra, and is a faster mobility option than most characters are capable of) has never been an extremely problematic mechanic. As opposed to rolls which are not faster than almost any characters mobility options.

Akumas teleport isn't like rolling, it was slower/ more telegraphed, and it still posed a huge issue for a while. Ultra 2 out of teleport was ********, it worked too well to make that thing a huge threat. You're literally saying rolling isn't that bad by comparing it to one of the best characters in Street Fighter 4.

 

[Tagxy]

Tagxy, the traits you're suggesting that separate the good characters from the not-good characters also share a very important property: They allow the user to attack people who could spotdodge at any moment without any significant risk involved. When the risk involves taking 50+% of guaranteed damage, being able to swing at an opponent without a lucky guessing getting you hurt badly is very important, and that's a common thread seen in the vast majority of neutral options used by the good characters/players.

Well I guess the point I had with that is it isnt because disjointed range and projectiles were strong tools against spot dodge, its because they were strong tools against everything. Kind of an occam's razor sort of deal. Spot dodging is still a mix-up, but if I abuse it in neutral virtually every character has a tool for dealing with this that will win everytime (either these tools mentioned or more likely a long lasting or multi-hit move). But constant use of bananas, pikmin, and lazers were a big part of the metagame, and spacing out opponents with MK's and Marths fair or dtilt (ZSS dsmash/side-b) in neutral was as well. Even if we look at matchups where these tools didnt exist you wont see spot dodge used in the same way these tools were.

The game wasnt degenerative to timeouts so the good characters had tools around these with a good read, but it did slow down the pace (which was fine by me for what it was, I understand others wouldnt enjoy this) and invalidated several characters (definitely not cool).

I dont want you to think Im just spouting BS so I searched "tyrant larry" in youtube and picked the first video. Old one so feel free to take it with a grain of salt, but I think it illustrates swords/projectiles as the go to in neutral while spot dodge turned into the panic option (which was good but still punishable).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9LBpRcT1NY

I agree the reward you could receive from a spot dodge vs what you got from punishing it definitely wasnt fair which I feel is the biggest issue with it. Spot dodge was a key part of my gameplay in Brawl so I've spent a long time taking apart its strengths and weaknesses.

Jigglypuff cannot punish back rolls directly, even on a hard read. Unless you are overlapping/are directly above the opponent before they move backward and you are already moving forward AND their roll is worse than average, the only thing you can get is a sourspot Dash Attack (and if their roll is better than the average, you can't even get that). If you are that close, they should be shielding and/or doing an out-of-shield option to punish her poor range/disjoint, and there's always the case of rolling forward to counteract that. On-stage trades are almost always a losing proposition for Jigglypuff, and when you have to respect things like Yoshi's stretchy pokes, Diddy's F-Air/U-Air, and many others, you can't just hang out in that area without putting yourself at significant risk. It's not about panicking--It's about doing it when there is absolutely no risk to you. Sure, bad players will roll out of sheer panic, and those are punishable, but you can't rely on that in a tournament against smart people.

A huge part of high-level Melee is waiting for the opponent to make a mistake and then capitalizing on it. It is rare for such opportunities to happen without some significant bait or shortcoming from the opponent to make it happen. Yes, it's still largely just more mobile camping (surprise!). A key difference between that neutral position and this one is that potential opportunities for such a thing to happen in Melee often happen many times a second, while it's not nearly as often here, and when someone is "in" in Melee, it's significantly harder for the disadvantaged player to get things back to the neutral position unscathed.

Jigglypuff does seem to have it hard thanks to her poor ground game, I cant even think of anyone with worse tools on the ground besides maybe zelda. I would think her best option is to corner the opponent, but then again she should be better at this then most thanks to her strong air game/wall. If Im wrong and shes not strong in the air then I dont know what to say about that character.

Regarding melee it depends on what character youre talking about. Fox, Falco, and Peach have true shield pressure so you dont even have to wait for a mistake, or rather even dumb things like shielding or jumping are considered "mistakes" for one character (see: smash 64 when its like that for both) which is what provides them more opportunities. It's quick but it makes approaching with them shallow compared to other characters in the game (except against marth who has his own powerful mechanic). If you removed these characters youd see a very familiar neutral game.

Tangential but approaching fox and falco is a nightmare, every other high/top tier has to generally play on defense and hope the opponent approaches but they dont even need to especially fox.

Chuva, here's an example, even with a character who is really well-equipped to fight against it--

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3E5tQTBYak

Of course, this is merely one match/matchup, but I know it's been pretty prevalent in high-level matches.

I only watched the first two minutes 3 minutes of the match so tell me if Im missing something. Clearly diddy has some strong tools to fight rolling and jtails chose not to use them, instead choosing an option that roll is supposed to beat (side-b). Dash attack, peanut pop gun, and banana are 3 simple things I can think of off the top of my head that wouldve been superior options (projectiles and dash attack as I mentioned previously). Watching him lose 3 exchanges picking the same side-b option 3 times in a row was tragic.

 

[Judo777]

Akumas teleport isn't like rolling, it was slower/ more telegraphed, and it still posed a huge issue for a while. Ultra 2 out of teleport was ********, it worked too well to make that thing a huge threat. You're literally saying rolling isn't that bad by comparing it to one of the best characters in Street Fighter 4.

It's NOT slower compared to the rest of the casts movement options. Few characters can even dash that fast if they spam dash. It was cancelable into ultra..... and that wasn't a very huge issue. I believe it was only cancelable into ultra 2, which people seldom ever played.

And yes I compared it to one of the best characters in streetfighter, for every reason except for teleport. I have literally never EVER heard someone say the reason Akuma was good was because of his teleport...... He was good because he had super high damage combos, incredible zoning and traps with air fireballs, and most importantly the best vortex game bar none. His teleport is like a 2 times better version of a roll that wasn't a major part of his game at all.

Because by far the worst part about a roll is that it is vulnerable both BEFORE and after the roll. So you actually have to commit to the roll even earlier than a spot dodge because spot dodge is immediately invincible.

 

[Tagxy]

Dodging into the ground is a gamble, yeah, but when you're in the air, on the flip side of a combo, it can really neuter followups. It's bad design (i'm relatively sure) because it removes a fair amount of the disadvantage from that situation, as smash has been doing for a few games now, and I really don't agree with that. Pressing advantage is a huge part of fighting games, and to make it less and less important is removing a sort of baseline law of interaction.

Also Melee airdodge was great because it is usable as an airdodge, just not for free. You can dodge through someone, but if they expect it or you use it wrong you get punished. That's true as well in Smash 4 but to a lesser extent as the Smash 4 air dodge is safer, and more omni applicable.

It's not bad design, it increases depth in the punishment game for the same reasons you stated for melee. To you its just a matter of degree and thats fine, a 64 player is liable to say melee airdodge is dumb for the reason you feel brawl airdodge is dumb. But it unequivocally forces you to make a choice in a situation you are capable of following up on. Its even easier in smash 4 compared to brawl since airdodge frame data is worse, hitstun cancelling is removed, and hitstun itself improved.