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Rock Paper Scissors

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brningpyre

Smash Lord
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You never said anything, though~

I didn't forget about you. But if Jamie's coming, I won't have enough room in the car.

So, either you drive there yourself (it's only about a half hour north of Jack's place), or things get homosexual in the back of my car.

If you want, it's cool by me.
 

Kuraudo

4Aerith
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NNID
Kuraudo
Alright, I'll figure things out with Jack and whatnot. Keith, if you could, you think you could drive to Jack's place and I can just follow you? I don't want to get lost on the way out to Morrinville.
 

brningpyre

Smash Lord
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Dude, I literally just drove around Morinville until I accidentally wound up at Jake's house. I'll print out the directions properly, this time. LOL~

Sure, though.
 

Yoshara

Smash Lord
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I should be able to go to this, but when will depend on if Kyle is going (ie; before 12:30 PM if he isn't, whenever he goes if he is).
 

~Firefly~

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Dude, I literally just drove around Morinville until I accidentally wound up at Jake's house. I'll print out the directions properly, this time. LOL~

Sure, though.
For anyone wondering, yes, Morinville IS that small.

I should be able to go to this, but when will depend on if Kyle is going (ie; before 12:30 PM if he isn't, whenever he goes if he is).
Sounds good. Try and get that confirmed by Thursday though please. =]

The turnout for this is sounding pretty good so far... ^.^ Who's planning on bringing Wiis?


:005:
 

Frio

Smash Champion
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加拿大
I have a small tv and a wii.

PS: I'm making the guy in the front passengers seat life rly homo.
 

T-block

B2B TST
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Hey whoever's having a smashfest in the future.

Do you guys mind testing out a starter list for me?

Final Destination
Smashville
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Lylat Cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise

Just so we're clear, I have no intentions of pushing this onto RPS. I genuinely just want to know if it's fair in the majority of matchups, so I'd appreciate honest testing and feedback. Something interesting to note: none of these stages can damage you =P
 

Diminisht

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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I still don't understand why you believe PS2 could be a starter.. let alone rainbow cruise and frigate. They may not "damage" you per say, however the definition of a starter stage is supposed to being something neutral. And I think we can ALL agree that Rainbow Cruise is DEFINITELY not a neutral, due to some characters having a large advantage in maneuvering around the stage. And frigate.. not having an edge on the right side kills characters with poor recovery. As well as PS2, some characters will have advantages over others in different scenarios, maybe not huge advantages, however its undeniable there will be some. The reason we have neutral stages, and the reason the original ones were only Final D, Smashville and Battlefield, Are because There are absolutely no tricks, basic platforms, flat ground, even for all characters to match up against one another.

Aaaaand theres my rant. Its something Dan and I have been cooking up for awhile. We don't understand your bizarre choice in stage lists, especially considering Alberta is already looked down upon from the rest of Canada. And this stage list, or any others that youve had in RPS in the past, won't help us for MLG for example, or fighting anyone else in canada, it'll hinder us.

I know you don't want this list in RPS, but I just needed to speak my mind about your other past lists. Although I love Yoshi Pipes, even i know it should not be there. (however I think MLG should put it on because it's the one stage everyone has a pretty fair chance against MK.)

lol, and btw i dont mean to try and sound angry or offensive, just trying to have a calm cool debate on the topic. :D
 

Alphicans

Smash Hero
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Ash (and I guess Dan), there are some right things there, but a few wrong things too. PS2 actually has the making of a starter, moreso than rainbowcruise and frigate, but that's not even the point of this list. Mike puts those stages in, banking on them being striked. It is to create more balance. It's so characters like diddy, IC's and falco need to strike stages like rainbow/ps2/frigate, while the other character can strike fd/sv/bf. What's left will be a balanced stage FOR THE SPECIFIC MATCH-UP. Past the first match, it doesn't matter what is considered "neutral" (which is opinionated in the first place), because every stage is now a counter-pick.

Another thing, is that this stage list will help us in MLG. Have you seen the stage list for MLG? The starter list is pretty cool...

Who cares what the rest of Canada thinks of us? They don't respect us because they don't think we're that great of players. A radical stage list won't change that aspect of their train of thought, I hope you can understand that. Furthermore, EC (both US and Canada) have a reputation now for having super conservative stage lists, which is actually getting a slightly bad rep from the rest of the nation.
 

T-block

B2B TST
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i love rainbowcruise
Me too <3


............


Can't knock it until we try it. I got a bad feeling though.
Haha Brandon... I was wondering what your reaction would be. Anyways, I'm asking this as a favour - nothing more. No obligation, etc. I'm curious how it'd work out, and I would host my own smashfest to test, but that's not really an option for me right now. Besides, I think it could be fun...


I still don't understand why you believe PS2 could be a starter.. let alone rainbow cruise and frigate. They may not "damage" you per say, however the definition of a starter stage is supposed to being something neutral.
Okay - I'm going to hold you to this. You define starters as stages that attempt to be as neutral as possible in as many matchups as possible, right? I'm going to take that one step further and say that we have to consider this within the context of the stage striking system. You probably meant that anyways, right? Agreed so far?

And I think we can ALL agree that Rainbow Cruise is DEFINITELY not a neutral, due to some characters having a large advantage in maneuvering around the stage.
I agree. Rainbow Cruise is actually a very polarizing stage, favouring characters with good aerial mobility. But since we agree that we are aiming for neutrality, or as close to it as possible, what about Final Destination? If we want to define starters as stages that don't interfere/move, Final Destination would make a great starter. But that's not your definition - you want overall fairness. Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers are heavily favoured by Final Destination... so much so that against Diddy Kong and Ice Climbers, and sometimes against Falco, Final Destination is automatically banned. If you define starters as stages that don't interfere, you would then say "so what? Diddy does well on FD and static stages, that's what makes him a good character", which is valid given that definition. But once again, that's not your definition =P Note that Final Destination is on top of the list and Rainbow Cruise is on the bottom. They are "opposites" in that one heavily rewards stage control, and the other heavily rewards mobility. In a matchup where Rainbow Cruise will be instantly struck, it is likely that the other side will instantly strike Final Destination. Within the context of stage striking, that sounds fair to me.

And frigate.. not having an edge on the right side kills characters with poor recovery.
And the nice thing about 9-starters is that the argument "just strike it" actually gains some credibility. But in any case, I think Frigate is slightly iffy... I thought about replacing it with Delfino.

As well as PS2, some characters will have advantages over others in different scenarios, maybe not huge advantages, however its undeniable there will be some.
The fact that you can't think of specific scenarios suggests to me that you don't understand this stage very well. Let me ask you this: how many times have you seen PS2 counterpicked? How many of those times was the counterpick reason "because my opponent doesn't know the stage very well"? If we want overall fairness in a starter stage list, PS2 seems like a good choice simply because nobody ever counterpicks it to give their character an advantage, or to give their opponent a disadvantage. Doesn't that suggest that it's actually pretty fair, disruptions aside? I think Ness/Lucas/Yoshi/GW might consider CPing this, but everyone else has better options.

The reason we have neutral stages, and the reason the original ones were only Final D, Smashville and Battlefield, Are because There are absolutely no tricks, basic platforms, flat ground, even for all characters to match up against one another.
You're going back on your definition now =\ Flat ground doesn't mean even for all characters. Just look at how often Final Destination is banned against me.

Aaaaand theres my rant. Its something Dan and I have been cooking up for awhile. We don't understand your bizarre choice in stage lists, especially considering Alberta is already looked down upon from the rest of Canada. And this stage list, or any others that youve had in RPS in the past, won't help us for MLG for example, or fighting anyone else in canada, it'll hinder us.
I don't understand how it will hinder us. So you go to GTAN with the knowledge on how to play on Port Town. Are you somehow a worse player now? The only way it "hinders" us is that we don't get quite as much practice on more commonly legal stages, but the difference is very slight, and more practice can always make up for that. Don't blame the stage list for something like that.

Besides, take a look at MLG. Things are definitely shifting in the more liberal direction. Everyone was outraged at the thought of 7 starters when I introduced it, and now MLG has come out with 9. MLG also has Norfair and Green Greens legal. The status quo isn't always the best way to go.

I know you don't want this list in RPS, but I just needed to speak my mind about your other past lists. Although I love Yoshi Pipes, even i know it should not be there. (however I think MLG should put it on because it's the one stage everyone has a pretty fair chance against MK.)

lol, and btw i dont mean to try and sound angry or offensive, just trying to have a calm cool debate on the topic. :D
No worries, calm cool debate on my side too ^_^
 

MeSSi

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
605
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
hey keith can u give me those directions... i might leave earlier than everyone else and i would also like to drive behind you guys(from jacks place, like how brandon is doing) if thats cool.. i dont wanna get lost either. we should do crews and a mini tourney.

oh and i remember colin counterpicking PS2 against me and he just randomly chose it which suggests to me that he thought i didn't know how to play on that stage (which i don't since i don't play there) and i ended up beating him. so i guess it does neutralize the stage list and counterpicks. oh and he went ness against mk so this might not have any merit, i dono just sayin. i guess im on mike's side.
 

Frio

Smash Champion
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加拿大
RAINBOW FUKING CURISE

you gotta be kidding me >_> That shiz is homo shiz

EDIT: hey Mike were you wondering what my reaction would be?
 

Diminisht

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
208
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Edmonton, AB
Mmmkay Maiko, I gotta say it makes sense why you would have rainbow cruise on the list, as a way to balance things out, I can see that point of view now. However, some of your arguments I will have to debate,

1. Your very first point, "You define starters as stages that attempt to be as neutral as possible in as many matchups as possible, right?" No, I don't. When I say neutral, I mean the stages cause no gameplay interference, nothing altered, the match is based solely on a person's skill, and the character they chose to play. Sure Brawl has an unbalanced character system, but that doesn't mean I cant chose to be whoever I want. Lets say, for the sake of argument, it's the first match in a set, I call blind picks, If i chose link, and luke choses falco, well that is just a poor decision on my part. But it doesn't take away from the fact that because Final Destination (for example) is a pure flat ground, the match depends solely on our respective skill as players. It's not Final Destination's fault Falco can chain grab me across the stage, in fact, it's my fault for chosing a weaker character, or, even Brawl's fault for being so unbalanced.

Now I understand, more starter stages, and more stage striking can balance out the game a bit, however thats the point of counterpicks is it not?

2. I didn't give specific scenarios for PS2 because I really was too lazy to think about it, I was just typing that up on a whim. But if you really need one, the conveyor belts: Brandon choses sonic, I chose marth, none of us have an advantage on this stage, however, when the conveyor belts come, Brandon cant use his classic spindash/spindash cancel to upair on me, (and lets face it, thats all he does ;) ) So he's hindered hugely at that point. And I don't know about you guys, but I do not like being stuck in the air when theres a sonic trying to up B to me and upair me to my death when im trapped due to the windmill section.

Now I get it, "just strike it" you right, so I guess I can't really argue that point.

3. Because you got your first argument wrong (my definition of a starter stage), your point about me contradicting myself is false.

4. It will hinder us because we'll be used to picking counterpicks that facilitate our victory during our tournaments, but not prepare us for mainstream counterpicks.
EG. Luke goes meta, You go PT, Diddy, I dunno, If you beat luke the first match, he can counter pick you to port town, and greatly facilitate his win.
OR, I lose against Alvin first match, hes MK, I go Pipes, It makes my life a lot easier to beat him.

These are examples where we could possibly be winnning only due to the stages that favor us, now I know thats what a counterpick is, but if you throw me against alvin in an MLG match, I don't know what to counterpick anymore, because I normally just take him to Pipes. Now my natural counterpick that I feel gives me the greatest chance, is rendered useless, and I need to go to a more unfamiliar stage.

Yes, it's true thats why we must practice, but when most of us are preparing ourselves for the RPS tourny, We will prepare ourselves for the RPS rules, which will change the game completely compared to how the world plays it.
 

T-block

B2B TST
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No Mark, I wasn't all that curious about your reaction =P I did try to justify putting Yoshi's Island: Melee in there, but I couldn't lol

Unfortunately, Ash, if you define starters as flat and non-interfering, this debate isn't going to get anywhere. I define starters as stages that lead to a first game that's as fair as possible, and nothing else. I don't care about hazards and such (although there's a case for limiting randomness, but I'm not sure I believe it yet). All we're gonna do is throw these definitions in each other's faces for 30 posts. I've been there.

I don't understand why you place so much emphasis on no interference, though. This is Smash Brothers... sure you could ban every stage that moves, but why? And what is so special about the first match that it must be played on a stage without interference? I'd rather have a fair stage for the matchup, given that the first match is the most important, than worry about whether the stage moves. If the fairest stage for the matchup happens to be PS2, what's so bad about that?

But you're contradicting yourself now - if you really believe that all starters should be no gameplay interference, why are you now saying that you can see why Rainbow Cruise is on there? Why is your issue with PS2 still that it could hinder characters? Wouldn't you focus more on the fact that they are not flat, static stages?

As for PS2, certain transformations do favour certain characters, but due to the nature of the stage, the stage overall doesn't favour anyone too heavily. The transformations are temporary, and if you really don't like it you could always stall it out.

I do see your point about it "hindering" us, but I wouldn't call that hindering. I did recommend we adopt MLG stage list after all. But the thing is, this problem can be remedied by more practice on your own. Nobody relies on tournaments 100% for practising for larger events. We're also not the only region that has a stage list like this. I think Maritimes Canada is quite liberal, and the Midwest is known for having liberal stagelists.
 

Diminisht

Smash Journeyman
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Sorry I never meant to favor rainbow cruise but not PS2. That first part was really meant to say, I now understand why you try to have more "out-there" starter stages, to try and balance things out. So in other words, I was no longer debating why you have these bizarre stages, I understood it after your post. I was just defending my point of view, which I personally would prefer.

And the reason why the first match is so "special" is because it's the only match where there is no loser/winner to determine a fair way as to whom should select the stage and out of what list.
which is why we invented stage striking, but it should be limited to a select amount of stages so those bizarre stages meant as counterpicks cant be chosen in what should be the one match where pure player skill is shown.

And ya lol I don't plan on having a meaningless debate for 30 posts, i just wanted to get where your coming from, and how better to do that than a debate :p
 

~Firefly~

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I'm not sure about the Maritimes being liberal. Nova Scotia used the Apex ruleset for their most recent tourney, though they stated that this was a more conservative stagelist than they're used to. I believe some of the players there are going to Apex, which would explain the shift. I think that's the only area in the Maritimes that really has an active Smash community...

Anyway, Mike, what would your list of CPs look like for that starter list? I was going to go with MLG rules for my smashfest on Friday, but I think I'll try out your list and see how it goes.

Also, I have 4 good TVs for Smash (1 of which is stuck in the living room, so 3 we can have in the basement, which is where everything will probably be happening), so bringing a TV if we don't already have 3 Wiis coming is redundant. That said, 4 set-ups would be nice to have; I don't see us using any more than that though.


:005:
 

T-block

B2B TST
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Er...okay jamie. I would hope you know better than to suggest I really want MK banned. Back when we were discussing MK I was probably the most anti-ban in Alberta ._.

I somewhat follow that sentiment, Ash. There's no way to determine a fair way as to who should select the stage for the first game, I agree. So you are suggesting we select (through stage-striking) the median stage out of the non-interfering stages. I am suggesting we select the median stage out of all legal stages. If there weren't time constraints, I think striking out of all legal stages is the most fair, but obviously that's not practical. That's the idea behind creating starter stage lists for me... keep the number low, but try to keep the result similar to what we would get if we were striking from all stages.

Maritimes was speculation, I don't know for sure. All I know is Raziek is one of the TOs there, and he strongly support liberal stage lists. Sorry...focus on Midwest then =P CPs would be the same, I'm just selecting different stages as starters. I don't wanna prevent you guys from practising with MLG rules lol... if you could set aside an hour or two to try this out I'd appreciate it.
 

KillLock

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 13, 2010
Messages
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let's just forget the stage list guys and go with the most fair format

-items on high
-PS2 only(the most fair stage)
-Pokemon trainer only(the most fair character cause there's three of them like holy **** the variety is amazing)
-if you put your cursor on snake you're banned from tournament forever cause he's the most broken
-mike sucks mlg ****

we'll change the metagame with this format because if you make any argument against items i can just say evo did it and now your argument is invalid because this is the most fair ***
 

Frio

Smash Champion
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There was actually a mini-tourney in a rental store in Edmonton about 10 years ago that had me kicking a soccer ball down one of the rows. =3

:025:
 

Frio

Smash Champion
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Yeah, tbh we have to lay off the personal attacks when we start arguing about brawl rule sets. All Mike really asked was for us to try it out at a SMASHFEST, that's not really a big deal people.
 

KillLock

Smash Lord
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the reason why im so angry is because about 10 years ago in edmonton i was just chilling in this rental store when this **** kid kicked me with a soccer ball while i was just chilling down one of the rows. =3

:059:
 

Limeee

Smash Champion
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mike you should've known better than to suggest something. victor may come in and threaten to infract people over discussing just like he did with the wobbling discussion.


i'm pretty sure your secretly pro ban mike
 
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