Rivals of Aether - Official Thread

JCOnyx · Sep 25, 2015

If I recall correctly, Zetterburns Fire Amp was nerfed to be less than 2x KB but it doesn't seem to say that on his character page. This was a couple playtest versions ago that I remember this change happening, but I can't find anything about it anywhere.

Terotrous · Sep 25, 2015

JCOnyx said:
If I recall correctly, Zetterburns Fire Amp was nerfed to be less than 2x KB but it doesn't seem to say that on his character page. This was a couple playtest versions ago that I remember this change happening, but I can't find anything about it anywhere.

Just tested it in Training mode. Fire Amp Forward Strong kills inward DI AI Zetterburn outright (ie, he dies at the side blast zone rather than the bottom) from the middle of Fire Capitol at 85%. With no Fire Amp, it takes 200%. It's double.

(it appears to be slightly more than double because the attack itself does 14%, plus an extra 10% if they're on fire, so they actually die at 110% vs 215%).

This also illustrates really well the problem with the mechanic. 200% to kill without fire? There is absolutely no way that's viable. It's fire or nothing.

Percentages should be more like 95% with fire (Fire Capitol is a big stage), 130% without. Note that this requires the move's base KB / KB Growth to be drastically increased from where it is now.

Life · Sep 25, 2015

What you are describing is called Marth Syndrome and is not indicative of a poorly designed character in moderation. (I doubt you'd consider Zetterburn's situation "moderate," though judging by your character icons you're familiar with Marth's tendency to kill people at 70 or 180 depending on the situation.)

^^Fire^^ · Sep 25, 2015

Is Absa not in the early access version, or is she unlockable?

AbsoluteBlack · Sep 25, 2015

That isn't even how knockback scaling works

Terotrous · Sep 25, 2015

Life said:
What you are describing is called Marth Syndrome and is not indicative of a poorly designed character in moderation. (I doubt you'd consider Zetterburn's situation "moderate," though judging by your character icons you're familiar with Marth's tendency to kill people at 70 or 180 depending on the situation.)

Marth is very different from Zetterburn, because the difference between a tipper hit and a non-tipper is purely one of spacing. Space properly, and you get the tipper. Mess up your positioning and you get the sourspot. You do not have to change your basic gameplan to get the tipper, you just have to be precise. Zetterburn's empowered smash attacks are not governed by precision, but rather the opponent being under a special state, so you have to focus your entire gameplan around that state in order to kill.

Also, Marth's tipper is only about 50% stronger than his non-tipper, it's still not double. Marth untipped forward smash will kill around 130-140% or so, the main cause of "Marth Syndrome" is that most of his combos just stop working properly past 100%, for example down throw will send them too far for the FSmash to connect and the Ken combo no longer works. At this point, you're basically reliant on a tipped fair or bair to kill (since Raw FSmash is usually hard to land), which can take a while. He is also not the only character that has this problem.

It's also worth noting that a fully charged Smash attack does 40% more damage / knockback, and we all know how deadly a full charge smash is. 200% is just nuts.

^^Fire^^ said:
Is Absa not in the early access version, or is she unlockable?

Not in yet.

Life · Sep 25, 2015

The point of comparison is that both characters require certain setups to get the most out of their kill moves. Marth has it naturally just due to the way his moveset is put together; Zetterburn has it built-in due to the burn mechanic. I'm not referring to the tipper system here.

Getting a kill with Marth past the window to combo into his kill moves requires either some kind of read with his unsafe kill moves (his smashes are unsafe, dair is unsafe, upB is REALLY unsafe) or some serious edgeguarding or tacking on a whole ton of percent until (at the latest) uthrow's kill percent which is like 180-200 depending on the matchup (which is also close to where tipper fair kills). Zetterburn is likewise, except that rather than being gated by a percent window where he can combo into kill moves nicely, he's gated by whether his opponent is burning or not. If he can get the setup on a burned opponent, he can get the kill. If he can't, he's gotta rely on other things.

I'm not in a position to determine whether burn should be nerfed, but I don't think it's particularly unhealthy from a purely design standpoint.

KuroganeHammer · Sep 25, 2015

AbsoluteBlack said:
That isn't even how knockback scaling works

idk specifically what youre talking about but if zetter's forward smash isn't KOing until 200%, then it has rly low knockback growth

Does RoA use a modified Smash KB formula or something?

I'm planning on playing some Zetter but I really hate how the character looks. As a person who plays cute characters only, there's something about fire lions face that bothers me.

Terotrous · Sep 25, 2015

I feel that percent gating is still quite different from state gating. For starters, due to how the Smash Bros combo system works, almost every character in the series is subject to some degree of percent gating. For example, in this game, Forsburn definitely has it, past a certain percent his moves start having too much knockback to combo properly, generally forcing him to either make a read with his strong attacks or get them to really high percent and get the kill with Jab3. It also affects Zetterburn, as his Up Air and Fair have quite a bit of knockback growth, and only combo effectively at low percents.

In any case, these still don't fundamentally dictate your basic gameplan on each stock, just that there's an optimal range when you should try to land a kill move and you're somewhat punished if you keep failing to convert.

Also, I would actually argue that having a 100% percent gate is bad design. With most characters it's like 30-40% until they can kill with an alternate move, which is punishing but not to the extent that it completely screws you over.

kupo15 · Sep 25, 2015

Chuck Tatum said:
Btw, any one else notice that Kragg dash attack CANCELS on hit now. WOW THAT IS STRONG!!!

Woah you are right! That is cool, though it only be canceled into jab and tilts it seems

T4ylor · Sep 26, 2015

SAHunterMech said:
Super stoked to try this out, but I've hit a snag. Whenever I select a character, I get this:
___________________________________________
############################################################################################
FATAL ERROR in Vertex Shader compilation
ShaderName: shColorReplaceBlendExt

memory:67:22: error: syntax error, unexpected NEW_IDENTIFIER

############################################################################################

Anybody know how to fix this?

Your shaders don't compile correctly. Download dxwebsetup.exe here. Should fix it.

Chuck Tatum · Sep 26, 2015

Terotrous said:
I was going to talk about Maypul, but Maypul discussion can wait for the moment. She is super good, and this will become clear enough in time if it isn't already.

The character I think we really need to talk about is Zetterburn. There's becoming a near universal consensus on Steam and anywhere else I look that he is a totally cancerous character to the metagame, generally because he's so braindead basic while still remaining just as effective as most of the other characters. Typical Zetterburn gameplay is "put out down b and stall with fireballs until around 50%, then attempt dash attack into Forward strong and repeat". This is beatable, but you have to work so much harder than the Zetterburn player does that it seems people find it intensely frustrating to play against. Among very strong players, I've noticed a kind of gentleman's agreement not to play Zetterburn, so I can't speak to just how good this strategy can be, but I think there's precious little argument to be made that he is not by far the most hated character and is probably hurting the community overall.

I've thought about it for a while, and I think the main problem with Zetterburn is the way Fire Amp works. Double Knockback in a game like this where recoveries are weak and blastzones are short is simply such an insane level of reward that there's no way it could not completely centralize his gameplay. It's the difference between killing at 60% and 120%, so you're functionally dealing 60% extra damage for landing that smash attack while they are on fire. This is simply ridiculous. Compare the level of reward other characters get for their unique mechanics. If Maypul marks you, she gets at most an extra Strong Attack, dealing maybe 15% extra damage. If Orcane gets you on a puddle, he gets a bit more range or to use his down B. If Kragg hits you with a rock, he gets like 10% damage. None of these mechanics are anywhere comparable to the boost Zetterburn gets from Fire Amp, they simply enhance those characters rather than completely define them.

I feel that Zetterburn needs a fairly significant revamp, and as part of that revamp, Fire Amp needs to be cut to being a 30% knockback boost rather than 100%. This is still quite significant, it could mean the difference between killing at 120% and killing at 90%, but it no longer forces this ridiculous dichotomy where he either kills you at insanely low percents when you're on fire, or he doesn't kill you at all if you're not. This way there would be a much better incentive to explore his combo game and all the rest of the things the character is capable of (and it's possible there may need to be some buffs in there, but right now his gameplay is so centralized around Empowered Strong that there's almost no way to tell).

Uhh... I am just not feeling this at all.

In my opinion and the opinions of almost every experienced player I have talked to about the early access build Maypul is NOT the best. Are you really basing your feelings on your initial impressions after playing one very good maypul online?

Zburn is not OP, certainly not braindead stupid... there is plenty of skill and decision making to using him well. Zburns do plenty of combo's, good ZBurns do NOT just camp out looking for smash opportunities that will make you lose against any competent player unless you are VERY VERY good at it.

Zburn has good kill setups for his forward air, down air, and up air. He has great kill potential on his non-smashes including his forward tilt. I'm not sure what you're referring to tbh.

Many of the best players i have seen use and respect Zburn. Overall, to me, your impressions of Zburn strategy don't seem very accurate at all tbh.

C1nn4m0n · Sep 26, 2015

4nace said:
Introduction
Hey Guys, 4nace here. Some of you may remember me from the Smashboards thread while working on Super Smash Land. I had a fantastic time working with fans on this forum getting insightful feedback on characters, stages, ideas, balance and more. This forum is the best place to discuss anything smash-related and that is why I am back with my latest project - Rivals of Aether.

What is Rivals of Aether?
Rivals of Aether is our latest game, which is an original indie title that explores the gameplay made famous by the Super Smash Bros series. The game expands greatly on the Smash Land engine and brings it closer to Melee speeds with more options for players and combos galore. You can think of Rivals of Aether as a bridge between Smash Land and Melee, but not quite in the same ways that Smash 64 would bridge the two. My high level goal is to create a fighting game that is offensive focused, accessible and varied. This game is not being designed to replace Melee, but rather to explore designs in a similar space.

Rivals of Aether features a brand new set of characters in a new world to explore. Since we are introducing a new world and new characters, we will feature a Story Mode in the final game. In the world of Aether, the four classical elements battle for dominance - Air, Fire, Earth and Water. The first two characters have been announced.

Zetterburn, the Fire's Roar

Zetterburn is a ferocious warrior representing the Fire Element. He is accustomed to battle.

Zetterburn has the unique ability to burn his opponents to deal damage over time. If you can land a Strong Attack on a burnt opponent, then you can consume your burn for increased damage and knockback!

Orcane, the Puddle Jumper

Orcane is a fun-loving trickster representing the Water Element. He is very elusive and causes major headaches for those in his merchant town.

Orcane has the ability to shift into water and jump between puddles. He can place a puddle with his Neutral Special or his Down Special. He can then use his Up Special to teleport to his puddle for a powerful splash attack out of it.

Orcane can also use Strong Attacks to consume his puddle and increase his range.

Wrastor, the Wind's Fury

Wrastor is a hot-headed aerial ace representing the Air Element. He is quick, aggressive and known for his rushdown style.

Wrastor has Strong Attacks in the air rather than on the ground. He is able to charge the attacks and hold himself airborne until letting off a powerful strike.

Wrastor can create a Wind Current with his Side Special. While inside his own current, Wrastor has increased horizontal speed which allows him to chase down opponents more effectively.

Kragg, Earth's Bastion

Kragg is a defensive tank representing the Earth Element. He is known for his strength and his ability to bend Rock with his will.

Kragg can pull rocks out of the ground using his Neutral Special then break them to send pieces flying toward his opponents.

Kragg can pull a pillar from beneath the stage using his Up Special and create ground beneath his feet. On the way up the pillar can damage opponents allowing Kragg to trap opponents underneath him.

More to come soon!

Who is Making it?
Rivals of Aether is early into development. We started on the game in April 2014. We are a very small team with only two of us working full time.

Dan Fornace - Design / Art / Animation / Programming

Before starting on Rivals of Aether, I was a Game Designer at Microsoft Studios and had the privilege of working on some great indie games. In 2012, I started working on Killer Instinct at Microsoft Studios. It was amazing to be part of that development process and I hope to bring what I learned from Double Helix and Iron Galaxy to this title.

flashygoodness - Music / SFX / Web Design / UI Design

Flashygoodness is an incredible composer who worked on Tower of Heaven in 2009. He also worked on Super Smash Land composing tracks for the hidden stages as well as making a special mix for the Tower of Heaven stage in that game. He joins the team with much more responsibility than he had on Smash Land and is ready to knock this game out of the park.

Johan Vinet - Stage Art / Pixel Art

Johan is an amazing Pixel Artist who joined the team in October of this year. He has been creating the new stage visuals as well as effects such as Kragg's Rock creations. He will be creating all the stages for Rivals of Aether so you can look forward to more amazing visuals from Johan!

Ryan Sicat - Promotional Art / Concept Art

Ryan is a great digital artist from Philadelphia, PA. After working with him on Elementimals in 2011-2012, I knew I could use his services on Rivals of Aether. For those of you who enjoyed the promotional pieces, seen in the trailer, you can thank Ryan. He'll be helping out on concepts and promos for the rest of the roster too

How can I help?
You can purchase our Early Access Build on Steam!

What is this thread for?
In this thread, we will give development updates and I'll be around to answer questions and discuss the project. I'll also drop in to post minor updates and look for opinions on pieces of the project!

aawwweeesome

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

Chuck Tatum said:
In my opinion and the opinions of almost every experienced player I have talked to about the early access build Maypul is NOT the best. Are you really basing your feelings on your initial impressions after playing one very good maypul online?

It's based on seeing what she's capable of when played at a near top level. She has just as big combos as Forsburn if not moreso, but with significantly better movement, neutral, and recovery. She basically has most of the strengths of the other characters with none of their weaknesses.

One of the biggest problems is that despite being super strong offensively and very hard to pin down, she does not have any lesser defense than the other characters. She definitely needs to have Wrastor's defense at the very least.

Anyway, if you think she's not all that good, I invite you to fight Pyth on Steam and get totally destroyed. I've beaten him like twice out of 70 games or so, and he claims to have only lost maybe 7 times since getting the game, which I don't find hard to believe at all.

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

stupid double post.

NapTime_ · Sep 26, 2015

So, guys. I just got Rivals on Steam. My computer is kind of low-end but nothing that shouldn't be able to run the game according to the steam requirements and "Can You Run It,"(The website said I should have a great experience running the product) so I naturally assumed I could play without issue.
The game looks as if it is running smooth fps-wise, but the issue i'm experiencing is that the characters themselves seem to be moving very sluggishly although the game runs at a fine FPS.
Has anyone had this issue? Any fixes?

T4ylor · Sep 26, 2015

The sprite for the 8th character, a polar bear, was leaked on reddit. He's the largest character and seems to dwarf Kragg, so check it out. The custom/extra colour options were also in the leak, and they look amazing, especially forsburn's.

stricker656 · Sep 26, 2015

4nace said:
Introduction
Hey Guys, 4nace here. Some of you may remember me from the Smashboards thread while working on Super Smash Land. I had a fantastic time working with fans on this forum getting insightful feedback on characters, stages, ideas, balance and more. This forum is the best place to discuss anything smash-related and that is why I am back with my latest project - Rivals of Aether.

What is Rivals of Aether?
Rivals of Aether is our latest game, which is an original indie title that explores the gameplay made famous by the Super Smash Bros series. The game expands greatly on the Smash Land engine and brings it closer to Melee speeds with more options for players and combos galore. You can think of Rivals of Aether as a bridge between Smash Land and Melee, but not quite in the same ways that Smash 64 would bridge the two. My high level goal is to create a fighting game that is offensive focused, accessible and varied. This game is not being designed to replace Melee, but rather to explore designs in a similar space.

Rivals of Aether features a brand new set of characters in a new world to explore. Since we are introducing a new world and new characters, we will feature a Story Mode in the final game. In the world of Aether, the four classical elements battle for dominance - Air, Fire, Earth and Water. The first two characters have been announced.

Zetterburn, the Fire's Roar

Zetterburn is a ferocious warrior representing the Fire Element. He is accustomed to battle.

Zetterburn has the unique ability to burn his opponents to deal damage over time. If you can land a Strong Attack on a burnt opponent, then you can consume your burn for increased damage and knockback!

Orcane, the Puddle Jumper

Orcane is a fun-loving trickster representing the Water Element. He is very elusive and causes major headaches for those in his merchant town.

Orcane has the ability to shift into water and jump between puddles. He can place a puddle with his Neutral Special or his Down Special. He can then use his Up Special to teleport to his puddle for a powerful splash attack out of it.

Orcane can also use Strong Attacks to consume his puddle and increase his range.

Wrastor, the Wind's Fury

Wrastor is a hot-headed aerial ace representing the Air Element. He is quick, aggressive and known for his rushdown style.

Wrastor has Strong Attacks in the air rather than on the ground. He is able to charge the attacks and hold himself airborne until letting off a powerful strike.

Wrastor can create a Wind Current with his Side Special. While inside his own current, Wrastor has increased horizontal speed which allows him to chase down opponents more effectively.

Kragg, Earth's Bastion

Kragg is a defensive tank representing the Earth Element. He is known for his strength and his ability to bend Rock with his will.

Kragg can pull rocks out of the ground using his Neutral Special then break them to send pieces flying toward his opponents.

Kragg can pull a pillar from beneath the stage using his Up Special and create ground beneath his feet. On the way up the pillar can damage opponents allowing Kragg to trap opponents underneath him.

More to come soon!

Who is Making it?
Rivals of Aether is early into development. We started on the game in April 2014. We are a very small team with only two of us working full time.

Dan Fornace - Design / Art / Animation / Programming

Before starting on Rivals of Aether, I was a Game Designer at Microsoft Studios and had the privilege of working on some great indie games. In 2012, I started working on Killer Instinct at Microsoft Studios. It was amazing to be part of that development process and I hope to bring what I learned from Double Helix and Iron Galaxy to this title.

flashygoodness - Music / SFX / Web Design / UI Design

Flashygoodness is an incredible composer who worked on Tower of Heaven in 2009. He also worked on Super Smash Land composing tracks for the hidden stages as well as making a special mix for the Tower of Heaven stage in that game. He joins the team with much more responsibility than he had on Smash Land and is ready to knock this game out of the park.

Johan Vinet - Stage Art / Pixel Art

Johan is an amazing Pixel Artist who joined the team in October of this year. He has been creating the new stage visuals as well as effects such as Kragg's Rock creations. He will be creating all the stages for Rivals of Aether so you can look forward to more amazing visuals from Johan!

Ryan Sicat - Promotional Art / Concept Art

Ryan is a great digital artist from Philadelphia, PA. After working with him on Elementimals in 2011-2012, I knew I could use his services on Rivals of Aether. For those of you who enjoyed the promotional pieces, seen in the trailer, you can thank Ryan. He'll be helping out on concepts and promos for the rest of the roster too

How can I help?
You can purchase our Early Access Build on Steam!

What is this thread for?
In this thread, we will give development updates and I'll be around to answer questions and discuss the project. I'll also drop in to post minor updates and look for opinions on pieces of the project!

stricker656 · Sep 26, 2015

Hey I keep on getting this problem can anyone please help.

___________________________________________
############################################################################################
FATAL ERROR in Vertex Shader compilation
ShaderName: shColorReplaceBlendExt

D3DXCompile failed - result

############################################################################################

T4ylor · Sep 26, 2015

stricker656 said:
Hey I keep on getting this problem can anyone please help.

___________________________________________
############################################################################################
FATAL ERROR in Vertex Shader compilation
ShaderName: shColorReplaceBlendExt

D3DXCompile failed - result

############################################################################################

I just addressed this, on this same page. Scroll up some posts .-.

4nace , this isn't an uncommon problem, could you mention this, and its solution, in the OP?

Chuck Tatum · Sep 26, 2015

Terotrous said:
Anyway, if you think she's not all that good, I invite you to fight Pyth on Steam and get totally destroyed. I've beaten him like twice out of 70 games or so, and he claims to have only lost maybe 7 times since getting the game, which I don't find hard to believe at all.

Terotrous, just so you know, I play Wrastor and against random people online pretty often and I think I have lost maybe one game.

On our stream, specifically seeking the best players we can, it's a bit harder. Nobody is playing Maypul at 'near top level' right now from what I have seen. I'm not sure any one is playing ANY character at 'near top level.' yet. I'm sure Pyth is good, i'd like to play him. But I would expect any beta player to have a close to 100% win rate playing against randoms online. (barring very laggy matches which happens sometimes.)

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

Chuck Tatum said:
Terotrous, just so you know, I play Wrastor and against random people online pretty often and I think I have lost maybe one game.

On our stream, specifically seeking the best players we can, it's a bit harder. Nobody is playing Maypul at 'near top level' right now from what I have seen. I'm not sure any one is playing ANY character at 'near top level.' yet. I'm sure Pyth is good, i'd like to play him. But I would expect any beta player to have a close to 100% win rate playing against randoms online.

All right, rather than just trying to explain, I'm just going to play against this Maypul player on twitch. Stream here:

http://twitch.tv/schultzy1364

Archive here:

http://www.twitch.tv/schultzy1364/v/17875776?t=01h032m30s

This is a pretty good clinic on why this character is so strong:

- Her combo game is equal to or superior to Forsburn's
- Her recovery is far better
- She can escape pressure better than any other character with Side and Down Special
- She isn't any lighter than any other character

AbsoluteBlack · Sep 26, 2015

IDK dude, I see a decent maypul running around a forsburn throwing out laggy moves and getting punished for it. Neither of you have extremely good punish games, either, and high level punish games tilt things out of maypul's favor.

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

AbsoluteBlack said:
IDK dude, I see a decent maypul running around a forsburn throwing out laggy moves and getting punished for it. Neither of you have extremely good punish games, either, and high level punish games tilt things out of maypul's favor.

You're welcome to join his stream and do better.

Also, lol, weak punish game? On several occasions I was comboed for upwards of 60% for whiffing like a jab or something.

Chuck Tatum · Sep 26, 2015

Terotrous, AbsoluteleBlack is really good. No offense but he would probably crush this Maypul.

1) Maypul combo game superior to Forsburn. Okay, that's probably true.

2) Recovery is far better than Forsburn. Nope, definitely not.

3) She can escape pressure well. Yes, that's true, as can Wrastor. That's why she dies at lower percentages and from SHENANIGANS like Wrastor up-B at 40% in certain situations.

4) She is lighter than several characters IIRC...

Any way, I invite you to play against some of the known top players using any other character before you go off on Maypul so hard. ;:

Chuck Tatum - out.

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

Explain how her recovery game is not massively better than Forsburn. She has 3 recovery options and a wall cling. The only recovery trick forsburn has is that thing I was doing where you put smoke and and teleport to it, but that's not that hard to counter by just hitting the smoke.

Anyway, like I said, he's streaming now, if you think you can beat him, let's see it. I was at least willing to put my money where my mouth was, let's see the people saying this character is beatable do the same.

Chuck Tatum · Sep 26, 2015

She is easy to gimp. Forsburn has an amazing recovery, IMO, the best in the game if you get good with it. In fact, forsburn can infinitely stall his recovery inside a smoke cloud in addition to plenty of other nonsense.

'From watching you play, you seem not to understand how to edge guard maypul (which is to be expected when the game is so new) and also you seem not to understand how to properly recover with Forsburn (smoke refreshes your up-B.)

I'm perfectly happy to play this guy but I 'have' been streaming RoA for like three days straight so I'm not in any hurry to jump on at this exact moment. I do like to, occasionally, do things besides play RoA

. But sure, i'll play him, that's no problem. If he wants to challenge me within the next few days I will play him gladly.

I mean honestly, I am not trying to be critical here man. But you have to understand that you are talking to people who have been playing the game for months and your conclusions just don't smell right to us.

Like, don't get me wrong, the Maypul is good. It looks like she could probably swing with my crew and some of the other good players I have played. But you have to understand I have played against MANY players on this level and some I would consider significantly better. There are players out there, with EVERY character, who dominate this hard and would crush you even harder. :/

The only character I have not seen played at this level yet is Forsburn... for some reason he seems under represented.

I won't talk **** and say 'i'm' better until I play him. :/

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

Okay, so rather than just saying "you don't seem to understand how to do X", the smart thing would be to explain the correct way to do X.

As far as edgeguarding Maypul, it's fairly clear that going offstage vs her is a lost cause, as Forsburn at least. Trying to wait onstage with Forward Strong might work (I was doing that much more this set than previously, and I did get some edgeguard kills with it), but it requires her to be pretty fast offstage so she has to use her double jump to make it back.

I was doing the teleport into smoke thing, but Maypul can just throw seeds at the smoke, which makes it quite risky to use. I also know that you can use the clone to try to make your recovery trickier to read, but that only sometimes works, other times the clone fails to recovery properly.

Also, link me to your stream, I'll check out your archives if there are any. I've already watched a lot of beta footage, and so far I haven't seen anything that matches the level of play of that Maypul. Certainly, the level of play here is far higher than in the EVO tournament, and also during the matches where they were testing out Absa, which was only like a month ago. To be quite honest, I think this guy has already reached a level that most players will never reach, regardless of how long they play the game.

Chuck Tatum · Sep 26, 2015

Alright so 1) Here is my stream: http://www.twitch.tv/cuddlypotato/v/17722936?t=6h34m24s

Link to some matches between me (crow) and a very strong Zburn named Mr.LZ. Spoilers (I lose), but they are close games and the guy is very good. this guy had just JV three stocked someone I considered to be pretty good so I was playing a bit scared, I think. (looking back I see a lot of mistakes here on my part.

) He has a very good instinct about wavedashing to get out of trouble and he interrupts a lot of my combos with snap-B.

Other questions:

Best way to deal with Maypul recovery is to go off stage. You can time out your attacks to interrupt both straight-up b, side-b and tether.

Backwards facing down-air is a reliable spike. Try RARing it (reverse aerial rush is run towards opponent, turn around and immediately jump. You will maintain forward momentum while facing backwards.)

Without tether Maypuls recovery should be pretty simple to gimp in most situations (as are most characters recoveries.)

With Forsburn, when you are recovering and you know you can't make it back, make smoke as you drift towards the stage. You will create a long chain of smoke that you can use to recover from almost any situation once you get good at it. Your opoonent will need to take some big risks to kill in many situations. You can infinitely stall inside even a single smoke cloud and if you play it properly Maypul will not be able to aggress with her seeds. pick your moment and get back to the stage when the time is right.

Timing clone as you recover is also super important as well. Forsburn is a pretty subtle/tricky character and I think he is very hard to play tbh. It's a tough character to start with but I hope you do get super good because the world needs more Forsburns.

Also: Check out this Kragg tech. cool! http://gfycat.com/AdorableFlimsyLaughingthrush

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

Okay, I will attempt reverse dair next time, but I still feel like she can mix up her recovery so much that it will be hard to land much of the time, and if she gets back onstage with me being offstage that's a pretty bad situation.

I don't know how long you were watching the stream, but I was doing that use smoke thing in a lot of the later matches. It's pretty great when you're recovering high, but if you're really low or don't have a jump there's not as much you can do with it. It didn't help that sometimes I was attempting to do this and the game read my teleport direction wrong, possibly due to mild lag or something.

Also, I checked out your stream. There's no question that that Zetterburn player is very good, but I still find this much less terrifying than Maypul because you still get plenty of time to breathe. Maypul is just on you all the time once she gets a single hit. I would very much like to see you go against Pyth to see if you could escape his pressure.

Chuck Tatum · Sep 26, 2015

I am always trying to play against strong players. I would love to play against Pyth or really any body else who is good.

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

Well, if you ever play against him, please link the stream so I can steal any effective tech.

I just did a bunch of matches as Kragg and took one of them, but yeah, character is insane. She really should not be able to survive Kragg up air near the top at like 130%. If she had Wrastor weight many of these matches would be much more possible.

I actually think Kragg is Maypul's worst MU, purely for better recovery and survivability. You're not getting out of her combos until 50-70% no matter who you are, but at least with Kragg you can still live a bit beyond that. Even then it is 5-5 at best. I suspect she is 6-4 vs most of the rest of the cast, maybe 7-3 vs Forsburn.

I can't wait to hear other people talk about how broken she is after they play him, lol.

Hylian · Sep 26, 2015

Do ground bounces put you out of hitstun? I find that whenever I ground bounce an opponent they usually just hit me before I can follow-up.

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

Hylian said:
Do ground bounces put you out of hitstun? I find that whenever I ground bounce an opponent they usually just hit me before I can follow-up.

Pretty sure they work identically to smash - distance is decreased but hitstun remains constant. I was getting a lot of ground bounce follow-ups earlier as Kragg.

Oh, and this is not directed at anyone specifically, but one thing I've noticed a lot is that when people watch a stream of someone doing well, they'll say "oh, I see a spot where one player made a mistake, therefore you can't determine anything from this video", which is totally the wrong way to look at something. Even top level players make mistakes, however, what you pay attention to is the times where they play optimally to extrapolate what a character is capable of. Even low and mid level players will make optimal plays occasionally, and you can use that to evaluate the strength of a character. A character's quality is about what they're capable of, independent of a player who can actually pull it off all the time.

Sure, Pyth does make mistakes and there's times where I've won interactions or beaten him, but when his Maypul is on, there is literally almost nothing you can do. She attacks far too fast for parries or airdodges to ever get you out, and can true combo to ludicrous percents from almost anything. Similarly, you are marked almost constantly, which gives him an absurd degree of stage control and the ability to kill at very low percents.

Maybe you actually will be able to beat him, but I hope you pay attention to what the character is actually doing rather than just the outcome. The outcome is only a small, small piece of the overall picture.

Hylian · Sep 26, 2015

Ah well I guess orcanes moves just don't have much hitstun then, dair specifically.

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

Hylian said:
Ah well I guess orcanes moves just don't have much hitstun then, dair specifically.

Oh yeah, I think Orcane Dair has like almost no knockback. It can combo into up light near the ground but certainly not much else.

^^Fire^^ · Sep 26, 2015

What reliable killing moves does Maypul have? Her strong attacks don't seem to do a lot when the opponent it not marked, and when they are marked I usually can't hit them with another strong attack fast enough to kill them.

I wanted to like Maypul, but that and her bad recovery ruined her for me.

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

^^Fire^^ said:
What reliable killing moves does Maypul have? Her strong attacks don't seem to do a lot when the opponent it not marked, and when they are marked I usually can't hit them with another strong attack fast enough to kill them.

I wanted to like Maypul, but that and her bad recovery ruined her for me.

Up Air, Tap Up Special, and Forward Air are also amazing kill moves. Dash Attack to Forward Air near the ledge is death at like 70% for most of the cast. Getting a mark is also nowhere near hard with how fast forward and down special are.

Honestly I think one thing that would make this character less nuts is for Forward Special and Down Special to have like 1-2 more frames of startup. It shouldn't be able to combo into itself repeatedly and shouldn't be a "get out of jail free" card in the air. Combine that with slightly lesser weight and she would probably be fair.

Anyway, just watch the stream I linked earlier if you want to see Maypul tech, it's like a clinic on what to do with that character.

^^Fire^^ · Sep 26, 2015

I've been trying to recover with the up special vine, but half the time when they're marked it doesn't do it and I just do the dash up. Do I not know something about it?

Terotrous · Sep 26, 2015

^^Fire^^ said:
I've been trying to recover with the up special vine, but half the time when they're marked it doesn't do it and I just do the dash up. Do I not know something about it?

You have to hold the button to do slingshot, tap up special will do the other one. This allows you to still use Leaf Leap even when you have the mark.

Incidentally, one other thing about this game that really needs to be fixed is that you can tech out of many characters Jab combos. I think the only character who this doesn't happen to is Orcane. Needs little knockback adjustments so that this is not possible.

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