Rivals of Aether - Official Thread

[Steel Banana]

Fun game, there is only only thing I am completely against which makes no sense. Why does Kragg's earthquake move behave like a physical attack? Its clearly a projectile and makes no sense as to why he gets stunned on parry and why it stops midway through if hit out of it.

What's your thinking on that 4nace ? I'm pretty curious.

Because it was totally broken when it used to be like that

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

Can confirm 1-3 and 6; disconfirm 4 and 5. Clone only attacks when you press b, and making one removes a full explosion charge if you have it. I can't remember every change but I can easily confirm or deconfirm specifics

 

[Steel Banana]

Any body have patch notes for the balance changes between beta and early access?

I have noted several major changes, but there are several other things i am not sure are any different or maybe it is just that online play makes things feel a bit different from the latency...


Positive These were changed:

1) Zburn's up smash has a better hitbox.

2) Maypul seed throw speed reduced significantly.

3) Forsburn back-air gets a new sour spot

Not sure if these were changed:

1) Maypul up-air has been nerfed slightly? Seems less relaible for kill than it used to be.

2) Forsburn smash attacks altered to connect more often than before? Not sure if this one is true.

3) Forsburn back air sweet spot has extra knockback compared to before?

4) Kragg towards-B seems different from beta somehow... can't put my finger on it?

5) Kragg seems heavier/harder to kill than he was in beta as well?

6) Changes to Forsburn clone? I heard someone say that you can press 'b' to make the clone attack or something?

1, 2, 3, and 6 are true. Kragg's sideB and weight were untouched though

 

[Terotrous]

Another change from Alpha is that if Maypul dies, her mark now goes away, which it didn't use to.

 

[kupo15]

Because it was totally broken when it used to be like that

Not As broken as orcanes bubbles from the puddle I'm sure talk about a really good projectile

How would you "reflect" that attack? It just does 3 spikes and that's it.

Other moves that throw out a "static" projectile also stun on parry, like Maypul's Down Air and Absa's Hold B Lightning Bolt.

It doesn't need to be reflected, just parry it so you don't get hurt. Yea that's right with maypul. The parry hurts that move hard. It acts like a delayed punish so the next time he lands he gets that stun which to be honest is quite a strange interaction

I think if you wanted to keep Kragg's stunned for consistency at the very least I don't think the move should stop halfway through when hit, but in my opinion I think Kragg's Maypul and Absa's should all not get stunned on parry (I actually can't recall what Absa's move looks like but I'm sure if its in the same group that it would be fine also not getting stunned)

 

[Terotrous]

I think if you wanted to keep Kragg's stunned for consistency at the very least I don't think the move should stop halfway through when hit, but in my opinion I think Kragg's Maypul and Absa's should all not get stunned on parry (I actually can't recall what Absa's move looks like but I'm sure if its in the same group that it would be fine also not getting stunned)

Does it stop the attack? Most such attacks don't actually stop their animation, though the person who parries gets some invincibility so it wouldn't be able to hit them anymore. With more than 2 players, it might still be able to hit someone else.

And I think Maypul and Absa need their attacks to be parryable, it's one of the only things that stops those moves from being ludicrously abusable.


In other news, a patch was released this morning, patch notes here:

http://aetherboards.com/forums/threads/295

 

[Steel Banana]

Not As broken as orcanes bubbles from the puddle I'm sure talk about a really good projectile

Kragg's downB used to be exactly what you said and it was the most low-risk, high-reward move in the game, easily. It overdominated his neutral game and there was no reason not to spam it. Even right now, it's still pretty low-risk, high-reward since Kragg gets out of parry stun just as fast as the guy who parried it.

 

[Cmanorange]

Texture packs? Is there any future with mods of any kind for this game?

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Does anyone have data on weights? I know Wrastor is the lightest and Kragg is the heaviest, just wanted to know if anyone had actual weight values and could list the characters in order from lightest to heaviest.

Also, are there differences in air and dash speeds between them?

 

[kupo15]

Does it stop the attack? Most such attacks don't actually stop their animation, though the person who parries gets some invincibility so it wouldn't be able to hit them anymore. With more than 2 players, it might still be able to hit someone else.

And I think Maypul and Absa need their attacks to be parryable, it's one of the only things that stops those moves from being ludicrously abusable.

Yes the attack stops if you get hit. There have been so many situations where I started the move, got hit and if it kept going like I think it should it would have hit them but instead I got combo'd or died because of it.

I kinda disagree. You must have been a closed beta tester because I don't have Absa playable so I can't comment on her. If Maypul does a down air you should be able to just jump at her and attack since the attack doesn't hit in the air. Do you really think its justified to have that move get parried and know that the next time you land you can't move for a second even though the parry happened like 3 seconds ago? Kinda reminds me the brawl up b glitch a little. The parry mechanic is an interesting twist but the way it interacts with air moves in general just feels strange to me

I think there are better ways to address balance with a move like this other than breaking a rule by turning a projectile into a physical attack such as more start up or end lag depending on how you want the move to function. Going with balance I think the down air is too quick as you can sprout a second plant before the first one is even halfway finished

You would no doubt feel like its completely wrong to be able to attack these projectiles and cause damage to the character, allowing projectiles to be effected by the parry mechanic in this way is pretty much the same thing from a defense approach.

Kragg's downB used to be exactly what you said and it was the most low-risk, high-reward move in the game, easily. It overdominated his neutral game and there was no reason not to spam it. Even right now, it's still pretty low-risk, high-reward since Kragg gets out of parry stun just as fast as the guy who parried it.

And what happened before when you parried it? Nothing? Would you get punished for parrying it? How does the move stopping when you get hit overcentralize his neutral game? The way I play Kragg I still over use that move as is and never touch his projectile because I personally think there is no point to it when they can use it against you. I also don't think he really needs a projectile and would much rather opt for no projectile in exchange for the old earthquake. The projectile comment is here nor there and I'm not about to argue for/against it by the way

As far as it being low risk high reward, the whole game is essentially this way due to the nature of having no shields

Also I'm curious as to why you can't view projectile hitboxes?

 

[Steel Banana]

And what happened before when you parried it? Nothing? Would you get punished for parrying it? How does the move stopping when you get hit overcentralize his neutral game? The way I play Kragg I still over use that move as is and never touch his projectile because I personally think there is no point to it when they can use it against you. I also don't think he really needs a projectile and would much rather opt for no projectile in exchange for the old earthquake. The projectile comment is here nor there and I'm not about to argue for/against it by the way

As far as it being low risk high reward, the whole game is essentially this way due to the nature of having no shields

If you parried it before, Kragg would run away til your invincibility ran out. The move stopping when you hit him makes him not be able to combo you off of a trade, which used to happen 100% of the time. This was a problem since Kragg has one of the deadliest combo/edgeguard games in RoA. The reason it was low risk, high reward was because it was safe on hit, whiff, parry, and trade and left Kragg in a favorable position in all of those except parry, which just reset to neutral. I could go into more detail but AbsoluteBlack could do a better job than I could explaining why Kragg's old downB was extremely broken.

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

lol trevor.

First, kupo15 , projectile's sprites *are* their hitboxes, there's no hidden red one.

Second, kragg's downb back then - and now - is a move with with very little risk and very high reward, which is dumb. Even on parry you couldn't punish him; if you hard read he would throw out a downb it was impossible to get in before it came out or even before he was just actionable again; it was literally impossible to force a kragg player to do anything other than spam downb because that was an absurdly safe option. No one could outrange it, no one could get in fast enough to punish it, everyone got hit really hard by it.

Almost all of that is still true, actually, but if you parry the second spike now you can get a quick tilt in. Parrying the third spike still doesn't do anything for you, although it's better than it used to be.

It actually used to be a 12 frame commitment... Fox's wavedash in melee is a 13 frame commitment. Ugh.

 

[Terotrous]

I kinda disagree. You must have been a closed beta tester because I don't have Absa playable so I can't comment on her.

I wasn't, but there's plenty of video of Absa where you can see her moves in action, including instances of Lightning Bolt getting parried.

If Maypul does a down air you should be able to just jump at her and attack since the attack doesn't hit in the air

Maypul Down Air has almost zero commitment, even if you do jump at her she'll have recovered long before you can stick out an attack. It also comes out fast enough that there's no way you can jump on reaction, it'll hit you during your prejump frames. Parry is the only move that has a chance of stopping it.

Do you really think its justified to have that move get parried and know that the next time you land you can't move for a second even though the parry happened like 3 seconds ago?

It's as justified as having a move that has instant startup, no recovery, and strikes halfway across the screen.

Down air would be an insanely broken move if the parry mechanic didn't exist. The parry is the one check against it running absurdly rampant.

I think there are better ways to address balance with a move like this other than breaking a rule by turning a projectile into a physical attack such as more start up or end lag depending on how you want the move to function. Going with balance I think the down air is too quick as you can sprout a second plant before the first one is even halfway finished

It's not really "breaking a rule". Maypul down air is not truly a "projectile". Projectiles travel across the screen and can be nullified by other projectiles or attacks. Maypul's down air is just a hitbox that appears far away from her, as is Kragg Down B and Absa thunderbolt, and parry affects them all the same way. Note that two Kraggs firing down B at each other don't cancel each other out.

 

[kupo15]

lol trevor.

First, kupo15 , projectile's sprites *are* their hitboxes, there's no hidden red one.

Second, kragg's downb back then - and now - is a move with with very little risk and very high reward, which is dumb. Even on parry you couldn't punish him; if you hard read he would throw out a downb it was impossible to get in before it came out or even before he was just actionable again; it was literally impossible to force a kragg player to do anything other than spam downb because that was an absurdly safe option. No one could outrange it, no one could get in fast enough to punish it, everyone got hit really hard by it.

Almost all of that is still true, actually, but if you parry the second spike now you can get a quick tilt in. Parrying the third spike still doesn't do anything for you, although it's better than it used to be.

It actually used to be a 12 frame commitment... Fox's wavedash in melee is a 13 frame commitment. Ugh.

True about the parry, so the parry thing prevents a Kragg player from approaching in the air if you parry the move

What is the reasoning behind the move not finishing on trades? Yes I know that a trade would be pretty favorable to Kragg but there were also favorable Ganon trades (as I assume Kragg is mildly similar) however those trades didn't work if you were at a high % because then you would be too far to follow up. The same should be here so if Kragg is at low % then you should be careful around him due to that.

While I still don't think the parry should immobilize Kragg, how his move was singled out and given its own special mechanic (not finishing) try and balance it is a bit suspicious. There has to be a more natural and better way to balance the move if that is what you are worried by allowing it to continue on trades.

Have you thought about increasing the start up lag so you can't just throw out the move whenever you want and you still have the same cool down lag to combo off of it like you designed the move to be? Personally I think this is the better option than the current attempts at balancing it

And by the way, one thing I noticed about the move is if you are very close to an opponent even without any DI only the first move connects and it doesn't chain to the other 2 because the kb isn't strong enough. I'm assuming it was your intention to have all 3 connect

Maypul Down Air has almost zero commitment, even if you do jump at her she'll have recovered long before you can stick out an attack. It also comes out fast enough that there's no way you can jump on reaction, it'll hit you during your prejump frames. Parry is the only move that has a chance of stopping it.

Aside from general good spacing skills. Having the awareness to not be on the ground when she is above you will also counter it without the need of the parry mechanic. I don't think its too unreasonable to expect this type of awareness instead of targeting this specific mechanic to a projectile to balance it.

It's as justified as having a move that has instant startup, no recovery, and strikes halfway across the screen.

Down air would be an insanely broken move if the parry mechanic didn't exist. The parry is the one check against it running absurdly rampant.

Sure I could see that, I'm merely pointing out that I think there are other and better ways to balance a move than to create a specific mechanic for a specific move. I think the move for as good as it is is too fast anyway and you shouldn't be able to sprout a second one until the first one is almost gone. Giving it more end lag would give the move more risk to balance it out as well

It's not really "breaking a rule". Maypul down air is not truly a "projectile". Projectiles travel across the screen and can be nullified by other projectiles or attacks. Maypul's down air is just a hitbox that appears far away from her, as is Kragg Down B and Absa thunderbolt, and parry affects them all the same way. Note that two Kraggs firing down B at each other don't cancel each other out.

Its more of a projectile than a melee attack. Just because you can't cancel it doesn't mean its not a projectile. Look at Fox/Falco's lasers, they are projectiles with transcendant priority and by the looks of it Kragg's Down B and this are similarly unclankable projectiles.

The most compelling argument as to whether something is a melee or projectile move is if attacking it will hurt the opponent or not. The only other option would be a disjointed move like a sword which I "guess" you could classify this as but because its attached to the ground not to Maypul as it is summoned by him makes it being a projectile more compelling

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

I mean, no other attacks finish if they trade halfway through. If I clank with maypul's first hit of dash attack the other one doesn't come out; same with zburn's fireball hitbox on his body or any other multi stage attack. I think you're inventing a problem

I want to balance downb by giving it endlag, which also makes it punishable on parry, but I'm not a balance team member despite my best efforts

 

[^^Fire^^]

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Anyone know how to fix this? PLZ?

 

[SyphoV2]

Do we know what'll be the standard method of play? On PC, there's wildly different control customizations available. I'm wondering what the options for accessibility are in terms of controls for tournaments and such. I didn't see this in the OP but will there be official support for different controllers, Gamecube included? I've a feeling PC would be preferred (due to Gamecube controllers) as the standard method of play over the Xbox, but is it possible Xbox could be the standard option? Will there be cross platform play online?

 

[kupo15]

I mean, no other attacks finish if they trade halfway through. If I clank with maypul's first hit of dash attack the other one doesn't come out; same with zburn's fireball hitbox on his body or any other multi stage attack. I think you're inventing a problem

I want to balance downb by giving it endlag, which also makes it punishable on parry, but I'm not a balance team member despite my best efforts

Well of course multihit melee moves don't continue if they clank, but this technically is a projectile and is unclankable like lasers. If you think about it that way it would be as if fox/falco's lasers get destroyed if you hurt fox so I don't think I'm inventing a problem. But I digress...even though I do play Kragg I don't bring it up to buff my character, just wanted to point out a mechanic I found extremely unnatural and strange

 

[Terotrous]

Maypul Down Air isn't really analogous to something like Fox Laser, it's much more along the lines of Palutena Celestial Firework. It's basically just acts like a standard hitbox despite not being connected to her body.

 

[Xtreme Dragon]

Wrastor's Tornado just killed at 43% don't nerf it.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I can't get my Wii U adapter to work on RoA. I have the drivers installed and it appears in X360. Why when I start the game does it not work?

Edit: I got it to work!

 

[kupo15]

I guess I could see that. That is her usmash, right? Sorry don't know her that well and don't play much S4ash. But don't you think that acts more like a sword than a projectile? Maypul's down air has variable range and its more like she is "summoning" the sprout from the ground instead of attached to her.

I guess for me I don't consider projectiles to be just things that you throw and move across the stage like you normally would think. For me its anything that acts like a projectile, how its not attached to you and it doesn't follow you once you start it. Maypuls down air doesn't follow you along the ground once started like a melee attack would

 

[Terotrous]

Wrastor's Tornado just killed at 43%

It's been known for a while that it does that. It's fairly hard to pull off in practice.

I guess I could see that. That is her usmash, right? Sorry don't know her that well and don't play much S4ash.

It's actually one of her Custom Side Bs. She creates a burst of flame a set distance in front of herself, though her UpSmash is also similar. Both create a hitbox that is totally disconnected from her body, but otherwise they work similarly to standard hitboxes.

But don't you think that acts more like a sword than a projectile? Maypul's down air has variable range and its more like she is "summoning" the sprout from the ground instead of attached to her.

It does vary to some degree, but only based on Maypul's current position, wherever it's going to strike, it strikes instantly, it doesn't have to travel across the screen to get there.

Absa's Thunderbolt can also vary, it strikes between Absa and the thundercloud instantly in much the same way.

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Wrastor tornado is a set up/gimp move and it's potential to kill doesn't really have much to do with percentage any way. It's more like 'oops you are in a spot you REALLY should NOT be in against Wrastor...' and then you die regardless of your percentage.

 

[JCOnyx]

Since the people in the Discord server haven't been able to help me, does anyone have the changelist from the June Playtest build to the Early Access 0.01?

All I can think of on the top of my head is the changes to Zetter UpStrong and DSpecial, Kragg DSpecial, Maypul's Seeds and UpSpecial. But I wanted to check exactly what was changed.

 

[Terotrous]

Just had a set against a preposterously good Maypul played named Pyth. I'm now quite convinced she is the best character in the game, if played really well she's just on you all the time, and air dodge can't do a damn thing to save you once you're in the air. I did actually get one game and a few others were close, but damn, she's a beast.

Part of her ridiculous power seems to come from something that may be a bug, which is that in some circumstances just can wall cling more than once per airtime. Several times she wall clinged, I hit her, then she was able to recover and cling again. This makes her recovery insanely safe, and she definitely shouldn't be able to wall cling more than once per airtime.

 

[Steel Banana]

Just had a set against a preposterously good Maypul played named Pyth. I'm now quite convinced she is the best character in the game, if played really well she's just on you all the time, and air dodge can't do a damn thing to save you once you're in the air. I did actually get one game and a few others were close, but damn, she's a beast.

Part of her ridiculous power seems to come from something that may be a bug, which is that in some circumstances just can wall cling more than once per airtime. Several times she wall clinged, I hit her, then she was able to recover and cling again. This makes her recovery insanely safe, and she definitely shouldn't be able to wall cling more than once per airtime.

Getting hit refreshes your walljump

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hello friends,

I bought this game the other day. It's kinda cool. I like playing the beetle.

 

[kupo15]

I Think maypul is probably the best also. She is super fast like you said and also she is small and hard to hit

 

[Terotrous]

Getting hit refreshes your walljump

Oh wow, so it does, I just tested this with Wrastor.

This is kind of a bad mechanic, IMO. I'm fine with getting hit refreshing your up B, but it shouldn't refresh any of your jumps.

 

[Life]

Recoveries are weak enough in ROA as it is.

 

[Terotrous]

Recoveries are weak enough in ROA as it is.

I don't know, it seems like Maypul in particular gets absurd benefit from this, due to her having both a horizontal and vertical recovery move, and the fact that she can cling. I was finding it almost impossible to get her off the edge, every time I smacked her she would just side B back to the ledge, then cling again. If I went out for a spike she just instantly did Up Special to hit me out of the air.

By comparison, almost no one else would benefit in the slightest from the ability to wall jump a second time, because they have so much recovery when they get back onstage or such limited vertical recovery that they can't abuse it.


It's probably also pretty strong for Wrastor and Absa, as all of their recoveries are much more versatile than the others.

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Please remember to hold off on balance feedback until you have a LOT of time logged on the game. Keep in mind for every new thing you figure out there are a dozen you haven't even heard of yet.

Right now, I do not think Maypul is even in contention for top char. However, I say that with hesitancy because I have 'only' played rivals since mid beta and there is a TON of stuff that has changed and the meta will take weeks to shake out.

As a general rule, if someone says "I am almost SURE X is the best' or 'I am almost sure Y is the strongest recovery' or 'I am almost sure V move is unbeatable.' it's not, it isn't, and it's not. Reserve judgements until you've logged like... 50 hours at least. (exception Kragg down-B, that is pretty bananacrazygonuts.)

Btw, any one else notice that Kragg dash attack CANCELS on hit now. WOW THAT IS STRONG!!!

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

^What he said, lol. Maypul's recovery is stupid easy to gimp if she doesn't have you marked, removing walljump refresh would make it ridiculous. She's also definitely not best char right now, as far as I can tell

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Right now I actually have maypul pegged as maybe the weakest? Again, not sure. It is a pretty impressive feat from 4Nace to have balanced a cast this diverse so well.

Rivals heavily favors momentum. If you are playing against a player who is significantly better than you are... they will often make you feel completely powerless, and you will often walk away thinking 'that character is soooo broken.'

I do find it funny how often I hear the following statements:

'Zetterburn is far and away the best, and it's not fair.'
'Kragg is far and away the best, and it's not fair.'
'Maypul is far and away the best, and it's not fair.'
'Wrastor is far and away the best, and it's not fair.'

I don't see people complaining about Forsburn or Orcane as much, but probably just because they are less popular.

Also, it's fun listening to people complain about Fburn smash attacks being too inconsistent. Compared to beta it is basically GUARANTEED

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Forsburn upsets me greatly.

And by upsets me greatly, I mean I have a friend who AIR CAMPS ME to spam down B at every opportunity.

And I'm just here thinking

"disgusting brawl wario main"

literally wario

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

ugh yes fburn's smashes right now are broken, it's insane

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Am I alone in thinking that jabs have too much reward on hit? 12-15% for landing a fast and unpunishable move seems a bit too much considering smash attacks do 10% at most.

Am I looking at the game wrong?

 

[JCOnyx]

Forsburn's Jab and DA are arguably some of his best moves. It's interesting actually, sort of Ike like...

Actually, now that I think about it I play Forsburn almost exactly like I do Ike when I'm not abusing his clone.

 

[Terotrous]

I was going to talk about Maypul, but Maypul discussion can wait for the moment. She is super good, and this will become clear enough in time if it isn't already.


The character I think we really need to talk about is Zetterburn. There's becoming a near universal consensus on Steam and anywhere else I look that he is a totally cancerous character to the metagame, generally because he's so braindead basic while still remaining just as effective as most of the other characters. Typical Zetterburn gameplay is "put out down b and stall with fireballs until around 50%, then attempt dash attack into Forward strong and repeat". This is beatable, but you have to work so much harder than the Zetterburn player does that it seems people find it intensely frustrating to play against. Among very strong players, I've noticed a kind of gentleman's agreement not to play Zetterburn, so I can't speak to just how good this strategy can be, but I think there's precious little argument to be made that he is not by far the most hated character and is probably hurting the community overall.


I've thought about it for a while, and I think the main problem with Zetterburn is the way Fire Amp works. Double Knockback in a game like this where recoveries are weak and blastzones are short is simply such an insane level of reward that there's no way it could not completely centralize his gameplay. It's the difference between killing at 60% and 120%, so you're functionally dealing 60% extra damage for landing that smash attack while they are on fire. This is simply ridiculous. Compare the level of reward other characters get for their unique mechanics. If Maypul marks you, she gets at most an extra Strong Attack, dealing maybe 15% extra damage. If Orcane gets you on a puddle, he gets a bit more range or to use his down B. If Kragg hits you with a rock, he gets like 10% damage. None of these mechanics are anywhere comparable to the boost Zetterburn gets from Fire Amp, they simply enhance those characters rather than completely define them.


I feel that Zetterburn needs a fairly significant revamp, and as part of that revamp, Fire Amp needs to be cut to being a 30% knockback boost rather than 100%. This is still quite significant, it could mean the difference between killing at 120% and killing at 90%, but it no longer forces this ridiculous dichotomy where he either kills you at insanely low percents when you're on fire, or he doesn't kill you at all if you're not. This way there would be a much better incentive to explore his combo game and all the rest of the things the character is capable of (and it's possible there may need to be some buffs in there, but right now his gameplay is so centralized around Empowered Strong that there's almost no way to tell).