Requesting Feedback - A Potential Alternate Rule Set

[Cactuar]

Much appreciated! I'm really looking forward to the feedback.

 

[MonkUnit]

I'm sure people from the Madison tournament this weekend will also be giving some feedback towards the ruleset in the results thread once it's made.

 

[Scar]

I'm actually really excited to watch sets with this ruleset. Is there a thread set up for listing / categorizing them? If there isn't, Cactuar I'd assume you'd want to maintain it but if not I'd be happy to.

 

[Cactuar]

I'm not very familiar with video threads and organizing them properly. I'd probably just put all the matches of myself at the top and then throw the rest in a big collapse at the bottom.

Edit:
For anyone hosting a tournament and looking to use the current stage list, you need to modify DSR, as there are only 6 legal stages in the current singles ruleset.

For anyone hosting a tournament and looking to use the opened stage list, you can use The Two Stock Rule Set as a base and adjust whatever you want. Rejectables can be made into universally banned stages rather than allowing the player to reject them. They have been termed rejectable because they all have mechanisms that are too strong for certain characters or matchups.

This is just set up to allow for optimal playtesting, not as a final version of the Rule Set.



The Two Stock Rule Set (Playtest Phase)
Super Smash Brothers: Melee (Singles and Teams)


Singles Stage List

Spoiler

Neutrals (5):

Yoshi's Story
Battlefield
Dreamland 64
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination

Counterpick (19):

Brinstar
Corneria
Green Greens
Icicle Mountain
Jungle Japes
Kongo Jungle
Mushroom Kingdom
Mute City
Onett
Princess Peach's Castle
Pokemon Stadium
Rainbow Cruise
Venom
Yoshi's Island
Flat Zone
Fourside
Kongo Jungle
Mushroom Kingdom II
Poke Floats

Rejectable (5):
Great Bay
Temple
Big Blue
Brinstar Depths
Yoshi's Island

Doubles Stage List

Spoiler

Neutrals (5):

Yoshi's Story
Battlefield
Dreamland 64
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium

Counterpick (17):

Brinstar
Corneria
Green Greens
Icicle Mountain
Jungle Japes
Kongo Jungle
Mushroom Kingdom
Onett
Princess Peach's Castle
Rainbow Cruise
Venom
Yoshi's Island
Flat Zone
Fourside
Kongo Jungle
Mushroom Kingdom II
Poke Floats

Rejectable (5):
Great Bay
Temple
Big Blue
Brinstar Depths
Yoshi's Island

Banned(2):
Fountain of Dreams
Mute City

General Rules

Items are set to off.
Stock is set to 2.
Time is set to 3 minutes.
Each player has 4 stage bans.
Double Blind: If elected.
Contest Port Priority: If elected.
Neutral Start: If elected.
Standard DSR
Gentleman's Clause
Forced Character Selection: Off
Matches that time out will have the winner determined by remaining number of stock, then by remaining percentage of the current stock. In the event of a percentage tie, the match should be replayed in full. Sudden Death is not to be played unless a Gentleman's Agreement is made.

Additional Rules for Teams Play

Team Attack is on.
Life Stealing is allowed.
If the game is paused accidentally while attempting to steal a stock, the opposing team may deem that stock forfeit. Wait until the announcer has finished saying defeated before pressing start, or turn pause off prior to beginning the match.


How to Play a Set

1. Players select their characters. Either player may elect to Double Blind.
2. Use Stage Striking on the neutral stages to determine the first stage.
3. The players play the first match of the set.
4. Winning player of the preceding match bans stages (if applicable). Rejectable stages do not require bans. (I suggest opening the stage on/off screen and turning them all on, then turning off bans.)
5. The losing player of the preceding match picks a stage for the next match. The winner may reject the selected stage if it is in the Rejectable List.
6. The winning player of the previous match may choose to change characters.
7. The losing player of the preceding match may choose to change characters.
8. The losing player of the preceding match gets first pick of port. Either player may elect for a Neutral Start, but RPS will not be played to determine first pick.
9. The next match is played.
10. Repeat Steps 4 through 9 for all subsequent matches until the set is complete.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Would you be able to explain why you chose 4 stage bans?

 

[Cactuar]

It was the difference between banning half of the counterpicks or not. I don't include neutrals, though people may choose to ban them. I figured it was good enough for people to ban about a quarter of the stages each and I chose to not round to the nearest, but that stance may change based on play testing.

 

[Dan Salvato]

You didn't specify '64' after Yoshi's Island in the stage list, so there are two 'Yoshi's Island' stages. Also, you might as well change "Rejectable" to "Banned" because the Gentleman's Rule would allow the player to accept the stage regardless. It seems redundant to include more rules for rejectable stages.

 

[Kal]

Yeah, if the opponent can just say "sorry, I refuse," then the difference between a rejected stage and a banned one is in name only.

 

[Divinokage]

Strike to one stage.. eww.. that'll take FOREVER lol.

 

[MonkUnit]

Could put stages into groups and strike groups at a time? But that might be worse than striking individual stages. IE: You want to keep X stage but get rid of Y stages in Group 1.

 

[Cactuar]

People forget that gentlemen's rules exist, and I'd rather keep the awareness high. The reason those stages are banned are because certain characters have overly strong strategies there. Rejectable status just allows those players to propose using those stages against players who can also use those strategies. If they think they can win there, it is like a callout. If not, they can just say no.

@Kage: That is still only strike from neutrals. I would assume people could figure that out, but I guess not...

 

[HugS™]

HuGs is the only person who it would affect anyway LOOOOOOOOOOL

I always joke that between games HuGs gets up, washes his face, calls his mom, does the laundry, etc. <3 Hugo

LOOOOL

I gotta clear my mind dude.

 

[sanchaz]

http://www.twitch.tv/standardtoaster

5pm. hype.

This will be the first official tourney featuring catuars ruleset.

 

[sanchaz]

Doing bracket now.

 

[CloneHat]

I'll repost this now that the thread has calmed down.

When counterpicking: The losing player selects three stages. The winning player chooses one to play on for the next match.

Thoughts? These number can be adjusted through testing.

 

[Habefiet]

My thoughts after watching the Madison tourney on livestream:

Didn't look that great.

From a spectator standpoint, it was very bland. It's not really possible to get invested in matches that short. Slaughters weren't interesting. Close matches weren't interesting. They just weren't interesting. A good deal of players gravitated primarily toward neutrals and recently-legal-CPs anyway, but even unusual stages were not compelling because they were just too short. The only two matches that I saw that were even remotely captivating were both down-to-the-wire timeouts, interestingly enough.

Now obviously the players' standpoint can be completely different from the spectators, but my playing of this ruleset amounts to the same thing--just doesn't compel a person on account of being too dang short.

Haven't seen comments from many other players yet, but LightsOutAce (who I believe was the TO) said, and I quote, "Singles is stupid." He indicated that teams was pretty fun but that singles just didn't seem to work (and also that he timed out half his matches by going Sheik on Fourside or Venom).

Looking forward to seeing comments from the players at the tourney. Still interested in more playtesting of course. But there are my thoughts.

 

[standardtoaster]

Glad to hear feedback from my stream. I'll post more about it when I'm home tomorrow.

 

[Cactuar]

Yeah, any and all problems that you guys have with it, lay em on me. After getting enough feedback, the next step is going to be seeing how we can improve it to not have those problems, if possible.

 

[Zone]

EDIT: nevermind.

 

[007-jake]

Once again, 3 stocks, 5 minutes would be much better imo..

 

[MonkUnit]

Madison Results thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=318244
Some feedback is in there

 

[Dan Salvato]

Yeah, any and all problems that you guys have with it, lay em on me. After getting enough feedback, the next step is going to be seeing how we can improve it to not have those problems, if possible.

I'm glad you're acknowledging that the ruleset isn't an ultimatum but something that likely needs to be modified one way or another. Three stock might end up being more comfortable and more hype, so we should probably experiment with that as well.

 

[Cactuar]

I honestly haven't put a lot of thought into an official ruleset for 2 stock matches yet, I just copypastad most of it from the MBR Rec. Everything at this point is like being in an alpha testing phase, not even beta.

 

[standardtoaster]

I'm currently uploading vids to my channel. I'll upload vids from the stream later this week.



I have to say that for doubles, this ruleset isn't too bad. I would prefer a higher stock count and time limit, though. Maybe something like 3 stock 5 min? However, for singles, it's absolutely atrocious. The stages play a huge part in it. The stage list needs a major revamp. Once again, the stock count really doesn't allow you to regain speed in a set. :/

 

[FrootLoop]

With 2 arguably drastic changes (stages and stocks) it can be hard to identify exactly which is causing a particular problem. Someone here said it was hard to get 'involved' watching the match. I'm not sure if it's the lower stock count or "zany" aspect of some stages.

LightsOutAce said loads of his matches were going to time, but he told me and was obvious in our set first round of winners that his goal was to cp stages with a middle wall like venom and fourside and camp them by keeping the opponent on the opposite side of the wall. I'm really sure that if he did the same strategy with 4 stock 8 minutes they'd go to time just the same.

I only had 1 game go to time all tourney and it was in pools because me and sanchaz both decided to play super patient on pokefloats and even then it was last stock with both of us over 100%, 10 more seconds and it wouldn't have timed out. Besides, it doesn't play like camping in 4 stock 8 minute since the time out is far more imminent so it forces interaction instead of the "super patient isn't really working and I'm losing but maybe that'll change in the next 6 minutes" agony.

Then again I don't play samus/peach or the like

edit: we did 2 bans since it was easier to remember and most people sounded like there were only a few stages they really hated. Plus remembering what stages were played on already + bans + 4 to 6 permabanned stages made stage selection take a while anyway. A higher number of bans would allow players to eliminate an entire 'category' of stages that share a common theme that they don't like.

 

[MonkUnit]

Perhaps for banning, put them in groups like "moving stages" and "walled stages" or something?

 

[Blu]

^ I think the more stages that are added will make this inevitable.

 

[standardtoaster]

Alright, here are the matches. I uploaded as much as I could from what I recorded. www.youtube.com/user/nonstandardtoaster

I couldn't seem to be able to split and upload stuff from twitch so you'll have to just watch stuff there. www.twitch.tv/standardtoaster

 

[Scar]

Testing for this ruleset with all stages is a really bad idea IMO, and as Cactuar said, it's not the point of the ruleset. From an objective perspective I don't think I'm going to get much out of watching the matches because I can't isolate anything considering that there were 2 major changes. I'm also completely turned off after clicking the YT site and seeing a huge screencap of Hyrule temple LOOOOL.

I strongly recommend having the "official" alpha ruleset being neutrals only, or some progression of the 7 "neutrals".

 

[pockyD]

yep, just run bo7 using any 7 pre-determined stages

eliminates all the between-match downtime that can throw you off your rhythm

 

[Kal]

Perhaps just the six starter stages alongside Kongo Jungle 64 or Rainbow Cruise? Having every set be on all seven of those stages could potentially be very fun.

 

[Varist]

you guys, it's a bo7. It won't go to 7 all the time. up to 3 of those stages won't be used. you can't have "every set be on all seven of those stages"

 

[pockyD]

who cares? you can enforce that someone MUST win on at least 4 of the 7 stages provided in order to win a set, which is all that matters. Order is irrelevant, meaning which stages are actually played in a short-circuited set is irrelevant as well

 

[standardtoaster]

Testing for this ruleset with all stages is a really bad idea IMO, and as Cactuar said, it's not the point of the ruleset. From an objective perspective I don't think I'm going to get much out of watching the matches because I can't isolate anything considering that there were 2 major changes. I'm also completely turned off after clicking the YT site and seeing a huge screencap of Hyrule temple LOOOOL.

I strongly recommend having the "official" alpha ruleset being neutrals only, or some progression of the 7 "neutrals".

Any banned stage that was used was agreed upon by both players. I won a match against DDF on great bay with sheik because of it. :3

 

[Scar]

Okay, let me rephrase: Testing for this ruleset with more than the 5 neutrals (or maybe the 7 neutrals) is a really bad idea. It's extremely difficult to tell whether changes in the experience of playing sets are due to the stock count and timer or the stage selection, and stage appears to be overwhelmingly more important to the outcome than timer and stock.

Watching Sheik vs Falcon 2 stock on Venom was an entirely different experience than I'd anticipated, full of ridiculous camping and an entirely different set of strategem than can be employed on flat stages. It should be tested but I'm convinced that this will lead to better tournament results for top tier characters like Fox, Falco, and Sheik. They have fast, strong moves that good in all situations, exacerbated by weird spaces in banned stages. At least on flat stages, good players with bad characters can out-think their opponents. Fox is extremely good on PS transformations for the exact reasons that he's going to be really good on stages like Venom and Onett.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3qSokHDwTQ#t=2m25s

 

[standardtoaster]

If you wouldn't mind, could you also link to the time in matches for examples?

 

[Kal]

you guys, it's a bo7. It won't go to 7 all the time. up to 3 of those stages won't be used. you can't have "every set be on all seven of those stages"

Strictly speaking, you can still play all seven matches. We just don't to save time. So you can, in fact, have ever set be on all seven of those stages. It's weird that you bring this up, since this is about as moot as points get.

 

[Scar]

I mean, to Varist's point, I guess there's a case to be made about the psychology of being up or down in a set, but if you can win on 4 of the 7 stages, it doesn't matter which order the set is played in stage-wise, you're going to win.

I suppose it's also worth mentioning that if the stage order is set and constant across all sets, and player X's best 3 stages are always at the end, player X has to have more stamina than others (but also gets a chance to warm up, I guess). It's easily sidestepped though (alternate picking stages from the 7).

 

[sanchaz]

this ruleset is ghey! SAFTEY DANCE THIS SHIZ!

 

[pockyD]

if there were an advantage provided by stage order, then having an inconsistent stage order itself is what would drive that

if stage order were completely standardized, it wouldn't be a variable, and people could tune their playstyles to it

that being said, i doubt that it has any significant effect in practice