Religion: what is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Huah!

[Kix]

you can't talk about evolution anymore.

second, just because this planet is suited for life, doesn't mean there's a god. there's an infinite number of other explanations, all of which have just as much credibility as the existence of a god. so why pick that one? cause you were brainwashed to believe it.

Why not? Also you are missing something my friend. Namely the fine tuning of the very constants of the universe itself - not just the planet.

The problem here is that you are just saying **** and talking out your ***. You assume I was somehow brainwashed, were you not? I study cosmology and see that despite many attempts no one was ever able to get around the initial singularity in the Big Bang model. The problem here is that the universe began to exist, the constants are all perfectly in place without any reason to be caught in this place. Even stranger is the fact that minute changes make life impossible. So how do you explain this?

You can't explain in naturally. You can't. What is natural started at the Big Bang. Why don't things pop up into existence all of the time? What begins to exist has a cause. The universe began to exist. You cannot explain why the Big Bang happen, in fact what you believe is worse than magic, honestly. Theism is not always as stupid as you want to think.

 

[arrowhead]

you can't talk about evolution because you know nothing about it. your ignorance is outstanding.

you were told all your life that god existed. that's brainwash. if every christian were told god was a cockroach, you would believe that too.

and i already provided a link to the no boundary proposal a while back. read it.

 

[antimatter]

hey, here's a thought. maybe there is a god, and he created the process of evolution? guess what, i'm catholic. even i believe somewhat in evolution. not the coming from apes part, but the rest is clearly possible and been shown in some species.

 

[Eor]

I forgot who told this story, but it fits well enough.

We're like an intelligent puddle. The puddle believes that the hole it's in was created just for it, because if it was just a centimeter smaller, the puddle would overflow and die, while if it was just a centimeter bigger, the puddle wouldn't fill the hole. Therefore, the hole was created for the puddle.

 

[Kix]

you can't talk about evolution because you know nothing about it. your ignorance is outstanding.

you were told all your life that god existed. that's brainwash. if every christian were told god was a cockroach, you would believe that too.

and i already provided a link to the no boundary proposal a while back. read it.

Tell me how it goes then. Go ahead. Point to me exactly where I got it wrong.

You don't know what the hell you are talking about and you haven't countered what I've said. A cockroach is not transcendent, does not allow me to account for the cause of the universe, morality or logical absolutes.

What page?

 

[arrowhead]

you didn't understand my post


pg 58 - this will also tell you where you misunderstand evolution. there might be more you don't understand that i didn't include in the post, but i'm too lazy to look through your post again. ask me specific questions if you still have any after reading it.

 

[Aaryk]

I am a die hard atheist/agnostic.
I don't believe that there is a higher being, intelligent design, all that jazz.
That being said, I am completely for religion.
Whatever it takes for a person or people to do good in the world, go for it.
Be a friggin Jedi if you want. If thats what it takes for you to do good, by all means.

 

[AltF4]

Be a friggin Jedi if you want. If thats what it takes for you to do good, by all means.

You know, "Jedi Knight" was put as the official religion of so many Marines that they had to recognize it as a legitimate religion. Too funny!



Kix:

Here's how the Anthropic Principle works:

You say "The world is so perfectly suited for life that it couldn't possibly have been by luck. It must have been made by god."

The Anthropic Principle states that our observations about the universe are biased due to the fact that we happen to live in a time and place that can support life.

It should come as no great surprise to us to look around and find a world that is perfectly suited for life. After all, what else did you expect? Humans living on a world that cannot support life?

As for cosmological constants, (like the universal gravitational constant) they are not derived but rather observed. It is entirely feasible that they are not constant at all, but rather change over large timescales. To which the normal Anthropic Principle applies. But in addition to that, there is the "Strong" Anthropic Principle which states that there can be multiple universes, each with different values for constants. We would happen to live in one of the universes that could support life.

These are all explanations of how the Earth (and universe) can be set up to support life without appealing to a god. Thus one is not necessary.

 

[Aesir]

aka the card scenario I offered, though altf4 offered a much better explanation.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

you were told all your life that god existed. that's brainwash. if every christian were told god was a cockroach, you would believe that too.

Please.
Don't lump all peoples of faith into a brainwashing category. You know NOTHING about his background so don't pretend you do.


And hey how about we stop turning the evoltion/creation argument into a B&W one... personally the fact that throughout all of man's history he's had religion is kind of good proof for me.

 

[antimatter]

plus, this thread is about what good religion has done.

 

[Aesir]

personally the fact that throughout all of man's history he's had religion is kind of good proof for me.

I don't really think thats adequate proof that god exists, simply because the mentality of early civilization/dark ages isn't exactly an intelligent one.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

I didn't mean that it was definitive proof that God exists, I just meant that it's better than the evolution debate at showing that man is more than meat.

 

[Aesir]

^ How so?

I don't think I quite follow, man being a animal isn't that fetched when you at our similarities to the great apes.

 

[SK8orDIE]

what good has this thread done? (j/k)

Needs more Fugue.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

I don't see great apes designing buildings or composing fugues just because it's beautiful

 

[AltF4]

personally the fact that throughout all of man's history he's had religion is kind of good proof for me.

I know this was quoted already... but really. Come on. People also used to think that the world was flat and that the Sun was pulled across the sky by a guy in a chariot. the popularity of a belief is not evidence for it's truth.

I didn't mean that it was definitive proof that God exists, I just meant that it's better than the evolution debate at showing that man is more than meat.

What makes you think that humans are "more than just meat". What makes you assume that you are in any relevant way special or different than any other animal?

 

[SK8orDIE]

What makes you think that humans are "more than just meat". What makes you assume that you are in any relevant way special or different than any other animal?

The answer to that question would be that we have a prefrontal cortex. It allows us to be much more than meat. Meat doth not question existence.

 

[Aesir]

^ How's that make us much more then just meat? what that really says is, we're meat that doubts.

bill nye for brawl..

 

[Tryptomine]

^ How's that make us much more then just meat? what that really says is, we're meat that doubts.

I'm not enteriely sure why, but there is something I find terribly amusing about the term "Doubting Meat."

 

[Aesir]

^ funny how all things can lead back to Douglas Adams

 

[SK8orDIE]

^ funny how all things can lead back to Douglas Adams

only if the question is about religion/matters of existence.

 

[Infern Angelis]

We should all be allowed to believe what we want and be done with it

 

[arrowhead]

only if you keep it to yourself or other people who believe the same thing. personally, i don't care what anyone believes. but if it leads to supporting unjust discrimination, i'll have a problem with it.

cog- it doesn't sound pleasant, but religion really is a form of brainwash. it's a continuous pounding of claims into subjects to make them believe certain things. you should realize that although brainwash has a negative connotation, it isn't always bad. i wasn't trying to offend, but it's the truth

 

[cultofrubik]

arrowhead, "brainwash" isn't a good term to describe religion. Because religion isn't the only thing that has rules and ideas "we are supposed to believe."

What does society do? What are rules?

Your logic seems to suggest that every argument or opinion put into words is "brainwashing."

Could you clarify a little more?

I mean, it sounds like Martin Luther King, Jr was trying to "brainwash" the United States into civil rights reform. Correct me if I'm wrong?

I'm not enteriely sure why, but there is something I find terribly amusing about the term "Doubting Meat."

I'm going to have to say that I too, was amused by the phrase



edit...

you can't talk about evolution because you know nothing about it. your ignorance is outstanding.

you were told all your life that god existed. that's brainwash. if every christian were told god was a cockroach, you would believe that too.

and i already provided a link to the no boundary proposal a while back. read it.

You're ignorant. You assume that a Christian cannot make up his or her mind.
/logic fail

It's not like we're going to convince each other the other way, but...here's a thought that may explain "our irrationality" in accepting God as a creator.

IMO, Faith is irrational. It's supposed to be. Because it isn't belief as much as it should be faith. Faith is this thing where an individual wholeheartedly [meh, I guess it varies person to person]trusts in something's existence. In this case, God.

I like to assume that Love, too, is irrational. It's a feeling. Blah and blah.

I like to therefore assume that my Faith and ability to love are both "feeling" to me. Maybe it cannot be explained rationally [hence the irrationality], but Faith is just as real to me as feeling itself.

So blah, my "ignorance" in a nutshell.

 

[Infern Angelis]

Everyone should make their religion to believe in all religions, so everyone believes the same thing

 

[cultofrubik]

buuut.... anti-conformity!

 

[DeadtoSin]

Unfortunately you cannot believe in all religions. The Bah'ai Faith tries to do that, but it just does not make logical sense.

Truth, is never mutually exclusive. Truth is always truth. Lets not even say religion. Everyone's spiritual outlook cannot be true. Athiests cannot say all beliefs are true, because they do not believe in a God. The Jewish religion does not believe Jesus is the Messiah, so how can they say that Christianity is true? The same goes for Islam, Buddhism, and all other beliefs.

They all believe different things, and one of them HAS to be true. I mean we've got Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, and different religions. They cannot all be true, because truth cannot be mutually exclusive.

And no, religions do not necessarily just have a piece of the truth, or truth for a certain individual. Lets take this as an example. 4 blind men are led to an elephant. They all put their hands on the elephant in a different place. They all believe it is a different thing. One of them says it is an elephant, and the other three have different answers.

Does that mean that the other three have a piece of the truth, or does it turn out that no matter what they believe to be true that it is still in fact an elephant?

 

[Circus]

Everyone should make their religion to believe in all religions, so everyone believes the same thing

That way, if we're going to Hell, at least we're all going down together.

I like this plan.

See you in Satan's Cauldron.

 

[arrowhead]

arrowhead, "brainwash" isn't a good term to describe religion. Because religion isn't the only thing that has rules and ideas "we are supposed to believe."

What does society do? What are rules?

Your logic seems to suggest that every argument or opinion put into words is "brainwashing."

Could you clarify a little more?

I mean, it sounds like Martin Luther King, Jr was trying to "brainwash" the United States into civil rights reform. Correct me if I'm wrong?


I'm going to have to say that I too, was amused by the phrase



edit...




You're ignorant. You assume that a Christian cannot make up his or her mind.
/logic fail

It's not like we're going to convince each other the other way, but...here's a thought that may explain "our irrationality" in accepting God as a creator.

IMO, Faith is irrational. It's supposed to be. Because it isn't belief as much as it should be faith. Faith is this thing where an individual wholeheartedly [meh, I guess it varies person to person]trusts in something's existence. In this case, God.

I like to assume that Love, too, is irrational. It's a feeling. Blah and blah.

I like to therefore assume that my Faith and ability to love are both "feeling" to me. Maybe it cannot be explained rationally [hence the irrationality], but Faith is just as real to me as feeling itself.

So blah, my "ignorance" in a nutshell.

maybe you're right. i see it as brainwash because there's nothing to support it. other than blind faith. but even then, how do you know you don't feel that faith because you were already "brainwashed"?

i never said christians can't make up their minds. nor did i ever purposely imply it. you may be interpreting my posts incorrectly

love can be scientifically explained

 

[Infern Angelis]

or if its heaven, we all go together lol together we rise or together we will fall

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

I know this was quoted already... but really. Come on. People also used to think that the world was flat and that the Sun was pulled across the sky by a guy in a chariot. the popularity of a belief is not evidence for it's truth.

see what I posted after this to aesir. just sayin mankind has a need to reach for something more.

What makes you think that humans are "more than just meat". What makes you assume that you are in any relevant way special or different than any other animal?

the fact that we're having this discussion?

cog- it doesn't sound pleasant, but religion really is a form of brainwash. it's a continuous pounding of claims into subjects to make them believe certain things. you should realize that although brainwash has a negative connotation, it isn't always bad. i wasn't trying to offend, but it's the truth

maybe you're right. i see it as brainwash because there's nothing to support it. other than blind faith. but even then, how do you know you don't feel that faith because you were already "brainwashed"?

i never said christians can't make up their minds. nor did i ever purposely imply it. you may be interpreting my posts incorrectly

Saying Christianity (religion) is a form of brainwash is purposely implying that they can't make up their minds. You act as if we believe because we were told to, that claims were pounded into us until we relented and became Xtian zombies or something. Check out the book, The Case for Christ.

Also, if anyone here just sees the ugly face of religion, I'm going to see Jim Wallis speak tonight and I highly recommend Sojourners, www.sojo.net

 

[Cubemario]

and.... this is exactly why I stay away from these kind of boards. There is really no point in discussing this, everyone has an opinion, and it all comes down to evolution vs creation. I appreciate the forums that frown upon such discussions as these. All these discussions do is generate hate and ignorance.

 

[Aesir]

Like I said we're meat that doubts.

To say thats a good reason to believe in god is just silly. (no offense to anyone lol.)

 

[antimatter]

^that's something more than normal meat.

 

[SK8orDIE]

Like I said we're meat that doubts.
To say thats a good reason to believe in god is just silly. (no offense to anyone lol.)

Ha. None taken.

But here's a little something to think about. You're saying that we are just meat; another organism; indistinguishable from all of flora and fauna. We have no purpose and no inherent value. Meat. So. What's to keep me from taking a gun and shooting you? I mean, why not? You're just some meat. You have no value, right? Oh, but you have life and life is valuable, right? Who says? Where does this idea come from? We could call the right to life a social contract; a gentlemen's agreement. But what if I'm not a gentleman? Survival of the fittest, right? I'm the fittest. I win. You should be happy for me.

Hmmm.

The point I'm trying to make is that by saying that people have no value, you allow us to do some pretty nasty things to one another. I, for one, like the idea that I have value and purpose beyond "propagating the species" and being the "fittest" at survival. We have a notion of morals, of right and wrong and science alone can't tell us where this comes from. Not entirely.

 

[Aesir]

Even if the purpose was just made up? you seem to think that if there is no god, there is no purpose. Why? Why is it assumed without an divine authority that gives excuse for people to do evil and justified things.

it's like assuming atheist's are immoral, religion is seemingly useless, without it you would have evil peopling doing evil things and good people doing good things. (not saying the rest of that quote because it's irrelevant to me right now.)

laws would prevent you from shooting me and getting away with it, think about it, who would want to live in a society where killing your own kind was legal. You wouldn't would you? No one would want to, this is exactly the reason we don't see animals mindlessly killing each other. Even for a fight for dominance, the sensible one will back down.

So even your example of shooting me is voided...>_> Since animals won't even kill each other unless provoked after all warnings.

 

[antimatter]

That way, if we're going to Hell, at least we're all going down together.

I like this plan.

See you in Satan's Cauldron.

i laughed, and then i cried, cause i know that's what's gonna happen.

 

[Tryptomine]

Even if the purpose was just made up? you seem to think that if there is no god, there is no purpose. Why? Why is it assumed without an divine authority that gives excuse for people to do evil and justified things.

What value does money have? Its just a chunk of paper or metal. Nothing special about it, it doesn't do anything and in most cases doesn't even look very pretty. So why are so many people obsessed about it?

Money has value because people have given it value. I do not need a god or threats of ****ation to tell me to be ethical and the murder is wrong because I have determined for myself that life is valuable. It is those who need to be told what is right and wrong that scare me.

(For clarification, I didn't post this as a direct response to you Aesir, since it seems we're in agreement. But rather used your post as a starting point.)

 

[espio87]

the real meaning of religion was to create a code of conduct and ethics. things like the ten commandments were done so people could know what was right and what was wrong. but then the countries needed to reinforce those codes and thus they created the "human" laws. the difference between them is that "human" laws aren't given a divine origin.
that is why I am an atheist, religious laws don't have any meaning to me, but men's laws do. they come from rationality (well...most of them) and thus I choose to obey them and not the divine ones. but also I have a code of conduct and ethics of my own, one which was formed from the education my family and school gave me.
the only thing that pisses me off about religion is that my friends sometimes can't believe that I don't believe in anything, but it's not too annoying