Religion: what is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Huah!

[antimatter]

fair enough.

 

[T-major]

Religion is for controlling people. thats, quite literally, the ONLY reason it ever started to exist in the first place. it was created by ancient governments in order to get people to stop doing immoral acts, such as stealing and killing. in the long run it was a good thing, so I'm not going to complain; but the fact that people can believe in a magical giant man who lives in the clouds is nothing short of insanity...

 

[Aesir]

Good example of this are the Mesopotamia's cultures.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Wow. There's no way I'm reading all of that.

The real answer is Religion is completely up to the beholder. It can be everything, it can be nothing. It is a choice, whether some people would believe it or not.

People who say that it's done nothing in society are stupid. People who attribute every individual little thing that ever happens to religion are also bordering on ridiculous. Seriously, own up to the events in your life, they ARE your fault, whether your religion would have you to believe that or not.


I'm Agnostic, so I pretty much think that there is an undefinable potential for a higher being. I'm of the opinion that Religion is a pure invention by mankind to try to give meaning to meaningless lives. To each their own.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Religion is great, and it tastes like chicken!

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

Religion is for controlling people. thats, quite literally, the ONLY reason it ever started to exist in the first place. it was created by ancient governments in order to get people to stop doing immoral acts, such as stealing and killing. in the long run it was a good thing, so I'm not going to complain; but the fact that people can believe in a magical giant man who lives in the clouds is nothing short of insanity...

Okay. I'm just gonna say what I think about how a god can exist. I must say, your stereotype of god is pretty shallow.

Now, I'm not sure what you don't beleive about there being a god, but just think about it. The world is a certain way. Rocks are solid, cold things are cold, Tornadoes accur when warm and cool air collide. You've always known the world to be like this. Always. Now you can say that god never interfieres with us and doesn't do anyhing visible, but consider that normal things such as rain coming down could be god - He could be doing that, making it happen. You've always known it to just happen at certain times, but every single time you've seen it happen, it could have been god doing it.

So, that's just my two cents in that. Rip it up, burn it, do whatever you like with it.

 

[DeadtoSin]

Religion is for controlling people. thats, quite literally, the ONLY reason it ever started to exist in the first place. it was created by ancient governments in order to get people to stop doing immoral acts, such as stealing and killing. in the long run it was a good thing, so I'm not going to complain; but the fact that people can believe in a magical giant man who lives in the clouds is nothing short of insanity...

*NOTE* I am not saying that non-Christians have no morals, I am just saying I can't understand where you are saying you get your morals from, and how you feel they can be enforced.
I believe what C.S. Lewis wrote. "You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body." I believe in morality. There are many agnostics and atheists here that believe in morality. I have a hard time understanding how you can believe anything is right or wrong if you do not believe in something perfect being. What standards are they comparing their morality to if the there is nobody here on Earth that lives up to their morals?

The only person that I could hazard a guess, is that they base their morals on their self. If they think something is wrong, then its wrong. However, I can just about promise you that they would tell me it is wrong for me to murder one of their family members. I am not sure how they could come to that conclusion, because if I felt it was right to murder their family, that would be my morality. If I came to a logical conclusion in my life that the only way that I could live out my beliefs was to murder someone, I do not understand how anyone could shake their finger at me for doing so.

That is an extreme example, but the same thing works for lying. Lying is still a permanent thing, and when you lie, you cannot take it back.

I measure my morality from God. God is a perfect being, and therefore lives up to the moral standards that he sets for himself. Since I measure my morals from a perfect being, I have the logical ability to tell a murderer or liar that what he is doing is wrong. If I did not believe in God I would not have the ability to say so, because I would not have lived up to the morals I set for myself.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

I have a hard time understanding how you can believe anything is right or wrong if you do not believe in something perfect being. What standards are they comparing their morality to if the there is nobody here on Earth that lives up to their morals?

You must lack any sort of imagination, then. If you don't know or understand the golden rule than you are either incredibly sheltered or willfully ignorant. If you cannot understand the application of the golden rule, then you truly are a moron.

God is far from a perfect being, anyways. Anything made up by humans is by definition imperfect.

 

[DeadtoSin]

Of course I understand what the Golden Rule is, but that has nothing to do with morality. Thats simply a rule to live by, not a set of morals. Thats a "Don't mess with me and I won't mess with you" type of thing.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

mo·ral·i·ty /məˈrælɪti, mɔ-/ [muh-ral-i-tee, maw-]
–noun, plural

1. conformity to the rules of right conduct;

How else would you define morality? Unless you have some 'special' morals that the rest of us are not aware of.

 

[DeadtoSin]

Your definition doesn't really mean ANYTHING. Who decides these rules of right conduct? You? What if your neighbor disagrees with you? You can't simply boil morality down to "conformity to the rules of right conduct" and expect that to be a sufficient answer!

When it all boils down to it, unless you have an example that does not make a wrong moral decision then how can you be sure that the decisions you are making are morally correct? If your neighbor thinks something is morally wrong, and you do it thinking it is right, which one of you is correct?

Truth is not mutually exclusive. Moral truth is just the same as mathematical proof, its the same no matter who the person is.

By the way, I do not appreciate you telling me that I'm sheltered, ignorant, or a moron just if I don't agree with you on a certain point. If you can't keep your insults to yourself, then don't bother posting here. If you want to keep insulting me then I'll just ignore your posts and talk to people who can be civil.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Do you have problems reading? Conform, as in conformity to society, as in what most people agree with. Most people on earth believe that hurting other people is wrong, whether it is lying about them or cutting them with a knife. You don't need anything special to tell you that you do not want others to take your stuff or break your bones. It is a perfectly sufficient answer.

And "truth" is subjective (and mutually exclusive to what?). A mathematical proof, is just that: Proof. Give me your 'special' definition of morality then.

 

[arrowhead]

Okay. I'm just gonna say what I think about how a god can exist. I must say, your stereotype of god is pretty shallow.

Now, I'm not sure what you don't beleive about there being a god, but just think about it. The world is a certain way. Rocks are solid, cold things are cold, Tornadoes accur when warm and cool air collide. You've always known the world to be like this. Always. Now you can say that god never interfieres with us and doesn't do anyhing visible, but consider that normal things such as rain coming down could be god - He could be doing that, making it happen. You've always known it to just happen at certain times, but every single time you've seen it happen, it could have been god doing it.

So, that's just my two cents in that. Rip it up, burn it, do whatever you like with it.

or maybe it's a magical fairy that makes those things happen. or maybe giant hidden spiders. or maybe dead people spirits. or maybe animals. or maybe aliens. or maybe physics.

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

or maybe it's a magical fairy that makes those things happen. or maybe giant hidden spiders. or maybe dead people spirits. or maybe animals. or maybe aliens. or maybe physics.

And who made the physics?

 

[DeadtoSin]

Do you have problems reading? Conform, as in conformity to society, as in what most people agree with. Most people on earth believe that hurting other people is wrong, whether it is lying about them or cutting them with a knife. You don't need anything special to tell you that you do not want others to take your stuff or break your bones. It is a perfectly sufficient answer.

And "truth" is subjective (and mutually exclusive to what?). A mathematical proof, is just that: Proof. Give me your 'special' definition of morality then.

And so, just because "most" people think something is wrong, it is? You know, I don't think I'm going to submit to the mobocracy, thanks. I'll take morality that doesn't change and is clearly defined. Secular morality reminds me of whats happening in America today. We prosecute Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American soldiers, and just a relatively short time later we can't even get our military brass to comment on whether or not they would prosecute someone for war crimes if they waterboarded a downed Air force pilot.

I'm done with this little morality discussion, you are more than welcome to have your fluid morality. I'll take my unchanging morality any day.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Unchanging morality? If we lived two hundred years ago you would be water-boarding "witches" and others who "fornicate with Satan," and otherwise doing all sorts of nasty things to people. Five hundred years ago and you would be killing the pagans of the Far East and otherwise trying to convert them to "the one true religion." A thousand years ago and you would be fighting against the evil musselman in an attempt to take back the "holy land" and beyond in an attempt to spread the power and word of your 'true god.' One thousand five hundred years ago and you would be slaughtering the pagans of Western Europe and converting them. But now you all of a sudden find it immoral to kill others in the name of your religion? Now you have no problem with eating meat on good Friday? Now you don't stone women for showing their impure bodies? Now you no longer burn heretics at the stake for speaking against your religion?

I'd say that your morality is just as fluid as the rest of the worlds.

Oh, and thanks for answering all the questions that I put to you- wait, you didn't.

 

[DeadtoSin]

Yes, because all Christians did that. You haven't really answered any of my posts very well either, all you do is you make your points by talking belligerently and making sweeping statements about what I would have done had I lived in the past and been a part of a certain religion.

So yeah, I'm proud to say that because you've acted rather rashly this whole time I'm going to be placing you on my ignore list for a while so I don't have to see the nonsense you are undoubtedly going to continue putting into this thread.

Now, lets get on to the next part of our debate. Any ideas where to start about religion now? I apologize to the rest of the thread, it wasn't my intention to hijack the topic. I only felt the need to explain myself when questioned about my position.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

If you can prove that your morality is some type of absolute that has not changed for the (approx.) two thousand years that it has existed, I would be quite happy. But as it is, you are submitting to the "mobocracy." I don't see how I was posting "rashly," other than directly countering any of your somewhat odd arguments.

As it is, you have not given any different definition of morality, other than utilizing your Christian community as the standard to conform to (see definition), neither have you explained how "do unto others as you would have done to you," is a bad moral code to live by.

I find your refusal to answer my questions when I have quite directly answered yours to be repugnant. But lacking the will for ignorance that you have seemingly and consistently shown, I will not be blocking you as I would very much like to see what you would like to contribute to this community. If you are unable to do the same, I only see it as a weakness in your 'faith', as you are unable to reconcile what exists in this world with what you believe to exist in this world.

 

[arrowhead]

And who made the physics?

the same thing that created god

 

[AltF4]

or maybe giant hidden spiders

Somebody's been reading the Debate hall topics, lol!

 

[arrowhead]

why yes i have

 

[aarathi]

In my opinion, god made man and man made religion. Man attacks each other in the name of God. I give all respect to all religions of my country.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

Unchanging morality? If we lived two hundred years ago you would be water-boarding "witches" and others who "fornicate with Satan," and otherwise doing all sorts of nasty things to people. Five hundred years ago and you would be killing the pagans of the Far East and otherwise trying to convert them to "the one true religion." A thousand years ago and you would be fighting against the evil musselman in an attempt to take back the "holy land" and beyond in an attempt to spread the power and word of your 'true god.' One thousand five hundred years ago and you would be slaughtering the pagans of Western Europe and converting them. But now you all of a sudden find it immoral to kill others in the name of your religion? Now you have no problem with eating meat on good Friday? Now you don't stone women for showing their impure bodies? Now you no longer burn heretics at the stake for speaking against your religion?

I'd say that your morality is just as fluid as the rest of the worlds.

Jesus' words & morality are not fluid. People who did all those things were not Jesus.

 

[Hypa-Link]

Ok, i guess my point didnt come across very clearly, and thats understandable since i guess i didnt say what i meant very well, but think about this.

Again, i hope this doesn't offend: its just how i feel.

You know those stupid chain emails and those stupid comments on youtube that people post saying stuff like "repost this 3 times or a dead girl with no eyes will kill your dog"? To me, thats like religion. I have nothing to prove or disprove it. My common sense tells me it logically doesn't make sense and is so unlikely that it's not worth wasting my time on. I don't repost them, because i know that it won't happen; EVEN THOUGH i could lose everything if i didn't. I sometimes find it contradictory when religious people tell me "you have everything to gain and nothing to lose, why not do it" , yet they find things like these chain emails laughable. They say stuff like "that was probably written by an 8 year old boy. Thats stupid, i wont waste my time on that."

People like that have to understand how silly the idea of religion is to me. If religion was confirmed as false, people in the future would be asking "Why did they believe in that stuff? Could anyone just make up a story and people would believe it back then?"

People seem to forget what happened to the ancient religion what with the 12 gods and zeus and such. That was accepted as we accept our current religions, but then other big religions came along and now we laugh at how silly the old ones were. It's happening again, as well. In 2000 years, new religions like scientology, however silly they may seem now, will become like our current religions, and we will look back and laugh at what we used to believe in.

This is my belief, anyway.

I guess I can sorta understand that. With all those crazy Aztec and greek religions I can see how someone who was raised in an agnostic household, would be like "wth is wrong with them"

I gotcha.

But I feel the same way about the universe just exploding into existence, several planets being formulated, and the germs in that planet, eventually evolved into little mammals, which evolved into dinosaurs and monkies and trees.

Because, if that's the case how come no other planets are doing that? Why won't the germs on mars eventually form into trees and give oxygen?

Why would the earth be the ONE planet, to spawn life? Cuz Christianty would explain that, but if you go by the big bang theory, why would only ONE planet spawn life, out of the millions of different random possibilities that would come from the big bang?

 

[AltF4]

But I feel the same way about the universe just exploding into existence, several planets being formulated, and the germs in that planet, eventually evolved into little mammals, which evolved into dinosaurs and monkies and trees.

Because, if that's the case how come no other planets are doing that? Why won't the germs on mars eventually form into trees and give oxygen?

Why would the earth be the ONE planet, to spawn life? Cuz Christianty would explain that, but if you go by the big bang theory, why would only ONE planet spawn life, out of the millions of different random possibilities that would come from the big bang?

Woah, what?!

1) Life on other planets is perfectly possible. Search for it is long underway. I don't know why you assume there is no life on other planets.

2) No bacteria (or germs as you put it) has ever been found on Mars. (Yet you assert that there is no life on other planets... Did you think that microorganisms didn't count as life?)

3) Christianity does not explain anything. It offers no explanation for the creation of the universe other than "It was created.... just because"

4) There are more than "several" planets. There are approximately 200 Billion galaxies each with approximately 200 billion stars. Each one of those stars can have multiple planets.

5) Mammals did not evolve into Dinosaurs and trees.

6) You know nothing of science.

 

[Hypa-Link]

1) I mean intelligent life. And all searches have failed.

2)INTELLIGENT life. And what do you mean germs have never been found on mars? I could've sworn there was...

3)And the Big Bang just offers an explanation like "The universe exploded into existence" which could be even HARDER to prove. lol

4)Well since no one can ever travel to those other galaxies, how can we prove that?

5)Well what evolved into the dinosuars and trees?

6) Well since you love science so much, you should know that a few years ago scientists found the girl who was turned to salt by the town of So'dom. B. Science is not something to "believe in"

 

[espio87]

5)Well what evolved into the dinosuars and trees?

bacterias, which evolved into fishes and plants, and then dinosaurs and trees. the fishes bacterias also evolved into insects and mammals SEPARETELY.

 

[AltF4]

*resisting urge to respond in bullet point format again...*

Ahh, what the hell:

1) All searches have failed? Well it must not be out there, huh? What are we doing still wasting our time?!

2) There was an initial picture of rocks that looked like they once held bacteria, but they turned out to be natural (inorganic) formations.

3) No. Actually it's already been proven (as much as anything can be). Have you ever heard of the Microwave Background Radiation? I suspect not.

4) So... if you haven't traveled to somewhere... you can't prove that it exists? You're saying that you're not convinced that China exists then. Just because you haven't been there. We can see other galaxies, have you never heard of the Hubble?

5) Not Mammals, lol. Dinosaurs were reptiles and likely evolved into birds today. Trees are plants and are part of a totally separate evolutionary line. But Goldshadow would be able to give more info on this than I.

6) There are "scientists" who believe that the Earth is flat, and others that the Sun revolves around the Earth. But you're right: Science is not something to believe in. I don't need something to believe in to sleep at night. Do you still need your blankie too?

 

[Eor]

6) Well since you love science so much, you should know that a few years ago scientists found the girl who was turned to salt by the town of So'dom. B. Science is not something to "believe in"

Yeah, just like how they found the Loch Ness Monster.

 

[Hypa-Link]

*resisting urge to respond in bullet point format again...*

Ahh, what the hell:

1) All searches have failed? Well it must not be out there, huh? What are we doing still wasting our time?!

2) There was an initial picture of rocks that looked like they once held bacteria, but they turned out to be natural (inorganic) formations.

3) No. Actually it's already been proven (as much as anything can be). Have you ever heard of the Microwave Background Radiation? I suspect not.

4) So... if you haven't traveled to somewhere... you can't prove that it exists? You're saying that you're not convinced that China exists then. Just because you haven't been there. We can see other galaxies, have you never heard of the Hubble?

5) Not Mammals, lol. Dinosaurs were reptiles and likely evolved into birds today. Trees are plants and are part of a totally separate evolutionary line. But Goldshadow would be able to give more info on this than I.

6) There are "scientists" who believe that the Earth is flat, and others that the Sun revolves around the Earth. But you're right: Science is not something to believe in. I don't need something to believe in to sleep at night. Do you still need your blankie too?

LOL, why would I need it to sleep at night.

When your mom dies of cancer, or you are praying for son to not be born with cerebral palsy, we'll see how much science helps you there.

The point is, believing in the big bang theory can be just as "crazy" as creationism.

On family Guy they did a funny skit, on an animated version of the two. They had like a lake, and a fish hopped out and turned into a frog, then kept walking and turned into an alligator and turned into a dinosaur.

Then they had like a genie fly in, and she just folded her arms and nodded, and animals just popped into place.

Both can see insane or factual if you think hard enough.

And even if you believe in the big bang theory, that doesn't mean GOD didn't cause it. lol

 

[AltF4]

And even if you believe in the big bang theory, that doesn't mean GOD didn't cause it. lol

Precisely! So why do you treat the theory with such ignorant contempt? You can have both, so why deny that which has an overwhelming amount of factual support in favor of one that doesn't?

 

[Hypa-Link]

There could vary well be both.

It's the Athiests that don't believe in god/creationism.

Evolution is a whole nother thing however.

 

[AltF4]

Evolution is a whole nother thing however.

Okay. One last thing before I leave this thread for a while again.


Evolution is an observation. It is a fact of the world. Species change over time, they do not stay always as they are.

Natural Selection is a theory. It explains why and how Evolution occurs.

You can dispute Natural Selection in favor of other theories, and we'll have a good debate. But you cannot dispute Evolution. It happens, grow up, get over it. If you don't like it, come on down to ASU some time. They do regular exhibitions showing Evolution on insects over an observable timespan. You can see it for yourself.


It's like Gravity: you can observe that things fall when you let go of them. Gravity is a theory that explains why they fall. You can dispute Gravity, but trying to claim that things don't fall when you drop them is just stupid.

 

[Hypa-Link]

I follow Natural selection. It's just the Adam/Eve thing contradict cavemen evolving from monkeys.

And if we evolved from monkeys, why are they all still around today?

Usually when a species evolves, the previous species doesn't stick around.

 

[Wikipedia]

I follow Natural selection. It's just the Adam/Eve thing contradict cavemen evolving from monkeys.

And if we evolved from monkeys, why are they all still around today?

Usually when a species evolves, the previous species doesn't stick around.

First of all we evolved from apes, not monkeys. Second, why can't the previous species stick around? If one part of a species can still survive in its environment it will not change then the genes adapting to the new environment will not manifest themselves.

 

[Cubemario]

I haven't read everything on this page, but I am going to throw around a few of my own views. I'm not doing this as a way to argue or whatever. I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion. Really though, lets keep it civil. If you've read any of my previous posts, you'll know i'm a christian, and i'm biased towards it. Still doesn't change what i'm saying are facts. I do recommend you go back and read some of my stuff though, you may find it interesting. If you want to know more of my beliefs, look at my previous posts.

1. Evolution does not attempt to fill in all the pieces. It does not attempt to explain how life came to be in the universe in the first place. It does not support the big bang, or any other theories of how life came to be in the universe, or how the universe even got created itself.

2. Evolution is a THEORY and nothing more. It should not be taken as fact. Evolution has yet to fully prove itself. Up to this point all the evidence is circumstantial. If it wasn't, it still wouldn't be called a theory.

3. Many christians believe the bible says the earth is around 6000 years old, and that is very incorrect. It is a common misconception unfortunately. If you have gone through the studies I have, you would know that is incorrect not only biblically but scientifically.

A scary fact that many christians are not able to face, is there was life on this planet before adam and eve. There is also clear scriptural evidence that were in fact two floods and not one.

Scripture makes this very clear if you know where to look, unfortunately not many people care about that sort of thing, so i'm not even going to walk anyone through it.

You cannot dispute the existence of fossils, and ice core samples. These are clear definitive proof the earth existed way before 6000 years ago and that life was on this planet before then. There is even scientific evidence of massive floods the earth has experienced.

You would have to be a foo or ignorant to turn yourself away from this evidence. Instead of spoon feeding all of this to some people, how about you research it yourself, if you really care, and aren't just here to argue.

As for life on other planets, from a scientific point of view, there is only theory to go on. From a biblical point of view there is more to go on. If you know where to look in the bible (most of it can be found in the book of revelation), it talks about what heaven looks like and some of what is there. If you have any sense about you, you'll know that heaven is a planet. No, not somewhere up in the ozone layer of earth, not up in some clouds, not some city floating in space.

Also if you want to use logic from a biblical point of view, it would be stupid even then for heaven to not be a planet. With everything God created it has consistency in everything. All planets have a similar structure about them. Humans, animals, etc. all are similar in many ways. Why wouldn't heaven be similar to earth in the way it looks and how it operates? Why would God give us outdated design, wouldn't he want to give us the best?

As for how the universe and everything got created, according to what the bible says about it... God created it through the power of his words. Whenever god created something, he always SAID, and then it came to pass. Even OUR words have a lot of power and authority in this world, and this has been realized by the world today. Which would make sense, because if we were created in God's image, we would also gain power in our own words.

Of course, which begs the question, why aren't we creating planets and universes with our own words? Well, because our word don't have the same power that God's word has. Were not god, were LIKE god, created in his LIKENESS, not of equal power. God's god, and were his children.

Of course I don't expect everyone to believe everything I say. I just wanted to give my two cents, and attempt to educate people more on what the bible and science says about certain subjects, and not what 'christians' say.

 

[illphil]

Just for kicks. I know this does not represent christianity but it shows how it has disillusioned such vulnerable people.

http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/top100.aspx?archive=1

 

[Wikipedia]

Still doesn't change what i'm saying are facts.

...a bunch of nothing...

Of course I don't expect everyone to believe everything I say.

Internal contradiction?

 

[Cubemario]

Well in case you couldn't tell, I was going by scriptural and scientific facts. Try and read my post before you call it a bunch of nothing. Sorry that was the only piece in my whole post you could try and make a smart remark about.

 

[Wikipedia]

I can hardly take the rest of the post seriously when you say the following list will composed of facts. Facts, by definition, are indisputable, known and cannot be refuted. Yet, you don't expect everyone to "believe" you.