Religion: what is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Huah!

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

Personally I like how some give Christians such a hard time, calling them ignorant and saying they make the world worse...
all while accusing them of being closed minded and judgemental.

hmm.

 

[AltF4]

I understand that this is the pool hall, and that intelligent discussion typically devolves into name-calling but really guys...

How would you like to define "ignorant" and "closed-minded". I would think that it is: refusing to accept that your beliefs could be incorrect. Or equivalently: refusing to allow evidence to influence your beliefs.

There is a reason why we use the term "religiously" to mean "blindly and without regard to common sense". If someone adheres to rules "religiously" they do so absolutely and without regard to reason. So what else can you call someone that has decided that their beliefs are true, and will not change even given any amount of evidence to the contrary?


it is not the belief in a god that makes one ignorant, but the shutting out of all other possibilities, the disdain that one inherently has for all other beliefs, and the fervent adherence to arbitrary, restrictive, and authoritarian rules. I know personally many theist friends who are not ignorant, but I fear they are in the minority.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

I understand that this is the pool hall, and that intelligent discussion typically devolves into name-calling but really guys...

''The civilized man has built a coach, but has lost the use of his feet."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson


Your Pink title does not put you above others in intelligence. Your debate room is biased upon the fact that you must apply in order to enter, thus it loses all diversity and richness, everyone opinion is equal. What you have said could be considered hypocritical.

As for the God I agree with Common Yoshi thoughts, if anything he is keeping his mind open. Compared to others who strongly admit that God does exist, or does not. Do you thing you have aquired enough knowledge to confirm his existance? Your are being bias to the knowledge you already know and not to what you still have to learn. ​

 

[Aesir]

So the original Apostles and very early leaders (Paul). I already described how that doesn't make much sense. The early church wasn't used as a method of control or getting $$ or anything bad... I don't see these nefarious motives...

No the early chruch fathers weren't greedy or anything like that, but it would seem necessary to make your savior god as appealing to other religions as possible, it's a fact that the story of Jesus shares many similarities to other savior gods.

There's also many books dedicated to disproving this theory.

History isn't theory, many pagan savior gods, share similarities with the folklore surrounding Jesus.

“And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Aesculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre?”

Kinda hard to prove something wrong when the early church fathers even acknowledged the similarities.

how would it be like that? love you neighbor.

Theres one thing the bible excels at and it's contradicting its self.

The translation of this verse isn't clear, and **** is probably the wrong word here. http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ot_and_rape.htm
Virgins were supposed to remain pure, so if she was seduced (not *****), and slept with a man, she became impure of sorts. So this rule was set up so the man couldn't go "Heh I got some and she's stuck with the blame, I'm awesome." and instead has to live with the consequences of his actions: a hefty dowry and completely what the sex was supposed to in the first place: marriage. Yeah read the link.

Did you read the rebuttal?

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_16.htm

 

[pikachun00b7]

Why does some of you assume such ridiculous things about religion. You think we are all either fundamentalists trying to disprove science. Or we use it to explain things we did not know. Which was true THOUSANDS of years ago. But not now. Some of you also assume we hate people not in our religion.
Many religious believe religion is to show how people should live their life.

I like how some (note some not all) atheists here claim that beliving in God makes you ignorant. Yet they never have the guts to say that in real life.

Internet thugs. >_>

In my personal opinion, I hear athiests(not the majority) all the time calling religion stupid and wrong. And the people also.

Religion is for the ignorant and people that lack knowledge.

Example of above.

I hope that any future posters actually has knowledge about the topic and respect for other members and their beliefs.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

I understand that this is the pool hall, and that intelligent discussion typically devolves into name-calling but really guys...

How would you like to define "ignorant" and "closed-minded". I would think that it is: refusing to accept that your beliefs could be incorrect. Or equivalently: refusing to allow evidence to influence your beliefs.

There is a reason why we use the term "religiously" to mean "blindly and without regard to common sense". If someone adheres to rules "religiously" they do so absolutely and without regard to reason. So what else can you call someone that has decided that their beliefs are true, and will not change even given any amount of evidence to the contrary?


it is not the belief in a god that makes one ignorant, but the shutting out of all other possibilities, the disdain that one inherently has for all other beliefs, and the fervent adherence to arbitrary, restrictive, and authoritarian rules. I know personally many theist friends who are not ignorant, but I fear they are in the minority.

Who are you referring to when implying uncivilized debate in this topic? Aesir and I have been having a really interesting conversation and we might see each other this Saturday at a tourney and I'm sure there won't be any hard feelings between us.
And it really sounds like you want everyone to be a unitarian universalist. There's nothing wrong with holding a strong set of beliefs, as long as they cause no harm to anyone else. It truly sounds like you would like no one to be committed to any particular set of beliefs.

Contrary to what you perhaps believe, there has not been as of yet overwhelming evidence to disprove Christianity... >_> And I disagree with your statement that "religiously" means "without regard to reason". It means fervent, dedicated, committed.

I really don't appreciate you calling the majority of theist peoples (which in fact is the vast majority of the world) ignorant. I think you'll find that if you talk to the average person of faith they will be a lot different than President Bush, a televangelist or Jerry Fallwell.


Aesir I'll reply tomorrow probably

 

[GreenKirby]

Why does some of you assume such ridiculous things about religion. You think we are all either fundamentalists trying to disprove science. Or we use it to explain things we did not know. Which was true THOUSANDS of years ago. But not now. Some of you also assume we hate people not in our religion.
Many religious believe religion is to show how people should live their life.

^This

In my personal opinion, I hear athiests(not the majority) all the time calling religion stupid and wrong. And the people also.

Actually, that's more of a fact since you can prove. But whatever. Some of these loud mouth athiests sure are hypocrites. Calling the religious dumb, ignorant, and judgmenetal when they do the exact same thing themselves. >_>

Heck, you should have seen in GameFAQs (and probably here as well). When the Devil Assist Trophy was updated on the Smash Dojo. The athiests automatically assumed that the Christians would get upset at this. And no Christian was upset.

I hope that any future posters actually has knowledge about the topic and respect for other members and their beliefs.

Nah, it won't happen. People are stubborn and proudful and won't admit that they could be wrong.

And again, I say for those who think I'm intolerant. I don't hate hate atheists. I just hate stupid, arrogant people.

 

[arrowhead]

Do you thing you have aquired enough knowledge to confirm his existance? Your are being bias to the knowledge you already know and not to what you still have to learn. ​

the thing is, the lack of evidence of a god strongly supports the atheists' views. it's like saying "you should keep your mind open to the possibility that if you kill a tree at midnight, you may get ***** by one." there's just zero evidence to support that, so you assume it isn't true. otherwise, there are an infinite number of things you need to "keep your mind open to."

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

the thing is, the lack of evidence of a god strongly supports the atheists' views. it's like saying "you should keep your mind open to the possibility that if you kill a tree at midnight, you may get ***** by one." there's just zero evidence to support that, so you assume it isn't true. otherwise, there are an infinite number of things you need to "keep your mind open to."

Not quite, keeping your mind open and making complete assumptions are two different things. The two sides in the arguement of god existance often conflict, a reasonable thing to consider that there is evidence for both (Many people have provided evidence for and against God, including you). Now with both sides with substantial information which covers their 'Faults', it become hard to choose. Unlike your tree example their is evidence for both sides of the arguement.


​

 

[arrowhead]

well what strong evidence is there supporting god's existence?

 

[AltF4]

Duplex:

1) I love quotes! Emmerson has some good ones.

2) The pool hall is second in spam only to the Brawl Rooms. But this thread has mostly stayed civilized. I was involved when it first started, then left due to an abundance of spam, but now returned because it's coming back. So really I'm complimenting everyone here. I was referring to things like what Green Kirby just said. I sure am a loudmouth, after all.

3) You give the religious side too much credit. You speak as if both "sides" have credibleevidence for their case. But this is not the case. There is no substantial or credible evidence to support the claims of theism. Not any.

If real, credible, repeatable evidence surfaced to support christianity, I'd line right up to be baptized. (Actually I'm already a confirmed Catholic! I went to a Catholic school when I was little. Turned out to be an Atheist. But you get the point.)

 

[Aesir]

I was raised catholic, then was forced into being a JW, ... no wonder I'm an atheist eh? =p

at least the catholics don't completely twist the words of the bible the JW religion does.

 

[AltF4]

But that's exactly what's wrong with Catholicism: They don't twist the words because they adhere to them precisely. I'd say that's worse, but I don't have much experience with Jehovah's Witnesses.

(Though I do find soliciting your religion door-to-door rather demeaning)

 

[Aesir]

They go door to door because they think it's their mission to save every one they can.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

Duplex:

1) I love quotes! Emmerson has some good ones.

2) The pool hall is second in spam only to the Brawl Rooms. But this thread has mostly stayed civilized. I was involved when it first started, then left due to an abundance of spam, but now returned because it's coming back. So really I'm complimenting everyone here. I was referring to things like what Green Kirby just said. I sure am a loudmouth, after all.

3) You give the religious side too much credit. You speak as if both "sides" have credibleevidence for their case. But this is not the case. There is no substantial or credible evidence to support the claims of theism. Not any.

If real, credible, repeatable evidence surfaced to support christianity, I'd line right up to be baptized. (Actually I'm already a confirmed Catholic! I went to a Catholic school when I was little. Turned out to be an Atheist. But you get the point.)

1) ''I love quotes!'' -AltF4Warrior

I love quotes too! (You see what I did there? It's almost paradoxical!)

3) I have to give both sides equal credit, for I do not know which one is correct, all I'm here to do is to make sure if you kind folks are correct. I'm not so much ignoring the facts, but I shouldn't have any doubts at ALL. So I'm the neutral party here so it seems. >_<​

well what strong evidence is there supporting god's existence?

I think we have all hit a bit of a problem in our arguement here... seems like it's a room full of athesists and agnostics bashing God. Is there actually anyone here who is supporting God? It takes 2 to tango!​

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

I was raised catholic, then was forced into being a JW, ... no wonder I'm an atheist eh? =p

at least the catholics don't completely twist the words of the bible the JW religion does.

lol this explains a lot... no offense?

But that's exactly what's wrong with Catholicism: They don't twist the words because they adhere to them precisely. I'd say that's worse, but I don't have much experience with Jehovah's Witnesses.

(Though I do find soliciting your religion door-to-door rather demeaning)

Nah I'd say the problem with Catholicism (other than their demeaning views of other denominations...well and some other stuff, ha) is that people raised in that tradition are often encouraged NOT to learn about the religion, read the bible, or take any kind of action regarding it. They just say the same mass over and over again each week and think that's fine.


DuplexDuo: um I'm supporting God.

edit: Aeisr I haven't forgotten about your post

 

[AltF4]

Here's a good article that was on Digg:

Cog:

Yes I'd agree with that statement. In Catholic school, they literally told us that kids in public schools were all drug users that are going to hell.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

Here's a good article that was on Digg:

Cog:

Yes I'd agree with that statement. In Catholic school, they literally told us that kids in public schools were all drug users that are going to hell.

Ha that's why I don't like Catholic schools.

That link was amusing but extremely ridiculous when applied to the global christian body. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson's time is over, and I say good riddance.

 

[FireJumpPunch]

My name is an unfamiliar one in the Pool Room and I would like to post my thoughts on this topic if you don't mind. In no way am I an experienced debater of sorts and I do not intend to contradict any of your opinions or hurt any of your feelings. I merely wish to add something to think about to the discussion.

It does not surprise me that many people are so ardently against religion. Many a mortal sin have been committed in name of God. Wars, killings, genocides, you name it. These acts of hatred, of which the guilty party claims to be performed in name of religion, are things that would make any human being shiver even deep inside his soul. But in my eyes these acts have completely destroyed the meaning of religion. Nowadays many see religion merely as lies for the weak, beacons for the deluded.

But none of these things have to do with religion. In essence, religion is, if you ask me, no more than what drives one to reach greater heights. What inspires one. What helps one achieve.
Religion is not merely about following the rules from a handy manual. Not trying to convince everyone that they came from a higher being. Religion is the eternal 'love' that binds everything, be it material or immaterial. When I say love, one should not think of the inherent love between two human beings for example. This is a special kind of love. Love that drives everything in the universe to the same goal: an existance of unity. Harmony. One could argue that this Unity is God, but I won't comment on whether that's the case or not.

I realise that what I say may seem like hippie-talk or whatever, but it's not. Just take your time. Think about it. What could this 'Love' be? What is Unity?

This might seem like an advertisement of sorts now, but there was a 13th-century philosopher named Rumi who spoke of the exact same thing. Try and Google him. At first glance, his teachings might seem very religious (in the evil, deluded meaning to some), but just stand still and think a moment about what the man says. You'll be amazed. There's no right or wrong when thinking about what he says; you may interpret it as you will.

Then come to me and say religion in this form, in Rumi's form is bull, if you still think so.

My final comments: Atheists and Theists tend to dislike eachother because of their views, their stories of creation. This is a terrible thing to do because, in the end, whether we hail from apes, the stars or the soil of the earth, we are all the same. We are all human. And this is what many people tend to forget. Instead of bashing eachother, we could all be as well helping eachother.

Thanks for reading through my post. I hope to have added something to think about.

Your friend, whether you be religious or not,

FireJumpPunch

 

[Aesir]

lol this explains a lot... no offense?


Nah I'd say the problem with Catholicism (other than their demeaning views of other denominations...well and some other stuff, ha) is that people raised in that tradition are often encouraged NOT to learn about the religion, read the bible, or take any kind of action regarding it. They just say the same mass over and over again each week and think that's fine.


DuplexDuo: um I'm supporting God.

edit: Aeisr I haven't forgotten about your post

Don;t worry I had a long day today so I likely wouldn't have replied back today anyway x_x

Lol yeah, I was a moderate Christian for a while esencially I ditched the catholic and jw teaches for a long time but held a belief in christ and god.

That didn't last very long lol.

 

[AltF4]

what I say may seem like hippie-talk or whatever

get a job, hippie!

jk jk <3!

 

[SK8orDIE]

The truth is that it is a matter of pure faith and for one, my faith is inspired by my interaction with the natural world. I believe that if you truly seek to understand the world around you, from the diversity of a biosphere to the specialization of species to its environment, you will arrive at a conclusion of awe and reverence. I believe that if you study the marvel of the human eye and imagine just how it would be possible for nature to produce such a sensory masterpiece, with response in just the right spectrum, in pair, with stereoscopic vision for depth, you will arrive at the conclusion that you are looking at the work of the Creator.

The truth is that we exist and while it takes faith to believe in a creator, it takes just as much faith, if not more, to believe that we came from chaos.

The world is simply far too complex to come out of chaos.

So to me, your question doesn't really have any bearing. I see belief as a conclusion rather than an institution and conclusions need no justification other than the evidence that brings us to one.

 

[Aesir]

The truth is that we exist and while it takes faith to believe in a creator, it takes just as much faith, if not more, to believe that we came from chaos.

The world is simply far too complex to come out of chaos.

So to me, your question doesn't really have any bearing. I see belief as a conclusion rather than an institution and conclusions need no justification other than the evidence that brings us to one.

Just because the world is complex doesn't mean god or rather a creator made it all, thats a primitive mindset and shows lack of understanding.

Lets say I theres a deck of cards and there are 4 people I hand out those cards between the 4 people you all look at those cards.

Now I shuffle the deck again and do the same thing, you could do this for the rest of your life and never get the first order of cards..

Does that mean that first order was impossible? no it just means thats the way things worked out. Much like how the universe just worked out the way it did.

I'm sure that it's possible a creator made everything, but that doesn't mean thats evidence that there is a creator.

 

[DeadtoSin]

Religion is good for nothing. I'm a Christian, I bet you wouldn't expect that remark. Religion is what is wrong in this world. People who have 'religion" are the pew sitters who don't put any money in toward the church and are the loudest when deciding what to do with the money. People with "religion" are those that have a church face and then another face for the next 6 days.

I have a relationship with Jesus Christ. My relationship is good because I have the ability to have a personal connection to God. This is something that nobody can contest, because it is my experience. I believe that my God is worth serving, and worth living for. I believe he is worth dying for, and he has given me direction and strength and a stronger will that I never had as a non-Christian.

 

[DeadtoSin]

People who are agnostic, and searching, I ask that you listen to Chip Ingram's Podcast. In particular listen to "Why I believe - Why I believe in Creation" parts one and two.

I know most people think that Christians are irrational and illogical. Chip Ingram uses logic, and he cites many athiest/agnostic evolutionists when he is making his points.

Also, if you want to hear another good Christian thinker, listen to Ravi Zacharias.

 

[SK8orDIE]

Just because the world is complex doesn't mean god or rather a creator made it all, thats a primitive mindset and shows lack of understanding.

I'm sure that it's possible a creator made everything, but that doesn't mean thats evidence that there is a creator.

Okay. If you don't like my wording, I'd be willing to change the word "evidence" (I am merely using it figuratively to refer to the natural world), but I don't think my mindset is any more or less primitive than yours. In fact, I think you underestimate the depth of my point. The complexity of the world is not evidence of a creator, but believing this takes just as much faith as any other explanation that has been presented. Life coming from non-life. We still don't have that one figured out.

My point is that it takes just as much faith to believe in an accidental universe as it does to believe in a deliberate one.

 

[Aesir]

The difference between your point and mine is, mine has evidence.

Faith is the belief without evidence, There is evidence for the big bang theory / evolution and all of that.

Not so much for a divine creator.

 

[AltF4]

Aesir:
I think the argument you're looking for is "The Anthropic Principle". There is a common argument for the existence of god that goes something like "There must be a god because the world is so perfectly suited for life. Everything is set up just right for us to exist."

This is an argument well known to be invalid. The answer is the Anthropic Principle.

The Wikipedia article on it gives a good description. Better than I could muster this late.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

I get what SK8orDIE is saying, kind of.
In that creation is meaningful. In that why is a sunset inherently beautiful to us? Or a spiderweb? Or a field of flowers? The fact that we're here, that we live and love and exist. Joy has meaning.

XD I'm getting a little broad.

 

[RedKnight]

I dont think theres anything wrong with something that teaches people to be ethical

 

[arrowhead]

it's too bad religion doesn't do just that

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

^^ If taught correctly, yeah it does actually.

 

[arrowhead]

some things work only in theory

and not all religions are 'good' anyways

 

[Smash legacy]

Where is this thread at right now?

 

[Infern Angelis]

Religions only separate people from each other, it leads to discrimination. We are all human beings, we should know that helping people and making their lives happier is the right thing to do, no matter what your religion, color, or anything is.

 

[Jacobcc]

Religions only separate people from each other, it leads to discrimination. We are all human beings, we should know that helping people and making their lives happier is the right thing to do, no matter what your religion, color, or anything is.

I wholeheartedly agree with you there..that was an excellent point you just made

 

[Infern Angelis]

Thank you, im glad you agree with me

 

[Jacobcc]

Thank you, im glad you agree with me

Your welcome

 

[Kix]

Aesir:
I think the argument you're looking for is "The Anthropic Principle". There is a common argument for the existence of god that goes something like "There must be a god because the world is so perfectly suited for life. Everything is set up just right for us to exist."

This is an argument well known to be invalid. The answer is the Anthropic Principle.

The Wikipedia article on it gives a good description. Better than I could muster this late.

I want you to tell me how it is invalid.

The constants are all set at the Big Bang. If changed minutely, we get implosion, and otherwise life could not exist based on the nature of the universe. Then we get a planet and improbable amounts of evolution happen without reason. It just starts and even though it's much more probable that the organism would die, we suddenly get insanely improbable upon the insanely improbable!

So let me ask you a question. How do you say that this is invalid? How are the constants set so conveniently when they had no reason to be?

While we're at it, do things appear into existence or start to happen without reason all of the time? After all, if something did not exist there would be no nature to confine what type of thing would spontaneously form. So why don't we see this all of the time?

 

[arrowhead]

you can't talk about evolution anymore.

second, just because this planet is suited for life, doesn't mean there's a god. there's an infinite number of other explanations, all of which have just as much credibility as the existence of a god. so why pick that one? cause you were brainwashed to believe it.