Religion: what is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Huah!

[arrowhead]

What you are missing here is that Santa can be accounted for as a human creation.

so is god

Furthermore you are missing the fact that God's existence accounts for not only logical absolutes, but morality, the fine tuning of the universe for carbon based life forms and actually a lot more. This is why it is rational to believe this. I think you might be not considering the facts of life. Logical absolutes exist not as a product of human minds or the universe, but are conceptual and perfect and transcendent. The constants of the universe are perfect, if changed minutely make it impossible for life. The universe is fine tuned for carbon based life, period.

there was no fine tuning. coacervates randomly formed in the soup that we call our ocean and evolved into more advanced life forms. just because there's life doesn't mean there's a god. sure, it was very unlikely for life to have formed, but so is winning the lottery.

Furthermore we could get into the fact that the universe began to exist, but that isn't even necessary. We have a transcendent mind outside the universe - a universe that reflects the nature of something in ways. This reflects something intelligent and sentient.

the universe didn't have to have a beginning. read the "why do people believe in god" topic in the debate hall if you want an explanation

 

[commonyoshi]

Actually.....
I mean unless killing them means to save them...>_>

I already had a debate on this. Here is a mini-essay I wrote so you dont have to search. The context is someone asking me why we can wear shirts that are made of diffrent matterial and whatnot.

The fish and the shirt thing all fall under the same logic so there's no need for me to devide the two up. First, some backround info:

If you actually read Leviticus you'd know that the Laws were given to the Jews (of course). They were traveling to Israel, also known as the "Promised land", where God was going to establish them as His chosen people in whom the savior of the world would be born. [The Jews were not special in any way; in fact, it is states numerous times that God chose them because they were weak, and it would be a sign to the people that He is truely almighty and great, and it was not of Israel's own power that they did anything.]

So the Laws of Leviticus were given to the Israelites as they became a nation that would be set apart from the rest of the world. There are the moral laws in Leviticus like not to steal, murder, have sex with animals which we dont really need to go over, do we?

The law about not wearing a shirt made out of two fabrics (and a couple more like it) were symbolic. The Israelites were pure like the 100% cotton pure that would/should not meddle in the idolatry that was common in their neighboring lands. There are several explanations as to why God wouldn't want the Isrealites eating certain foods, but we cant be sure if any is the "correct answer". It could also have been symbolic for the Jews to abstain from some foods as a sign that they would give up their sinful acts, or the animals during that time might have been diseased and unfit for eating compared to other animals in the area. We dont really know. However, it is pretty obvious these Laws were not based on any moral standard.

Well, Israel fell about 400 B.C. The nation was disbanded and enslaved. The reason we dont follow the Laws of Leviticus is that we are not Israelites. I'm not speaking in the nationality sense of blood and genetics, but that the nation of ancient Israel that was selected by God in which Christ would come is no longer around/needed because Jesus has already died and risen.

I'd really like to know why so many people use the bible as their guidance for life...>_> Sure theres some nice things in it, then theres some really ****ing crazy **** in here that can be used to justify anything.

So can the Constitution.
Edit: Aiser, I've noticed from these discussions that you always ask why God didn't make this and this perfect or why He didn't do so and so. Doesn't it seem ironic to you that you're trying to bend God into your own way of thinking? Isn't that the very thing you're accusing people of doing, making gods up out of nowhere for their own gain?

@ the hitler thing, Hitler could use his religion to justify his actions. Much like slave owners in America did. One thing that remains constant in almost every religion is it's need to contradict it's self.

Funny, because the antislavery reforms were caused by the Second Great Awakening. Huh.

On a last note Kix how can something which is not logical be logical? Where is the logic in something that created itself, where is the logic that God created the Earth in 7 days, the feats Gesus was able to perform or the logic of God existing. I could go on for days stating illogical things related to religions...

Everything is illogial as long as we dont have any evidence to back it up. People in poor countries who lack any sort of proper education would probably think that evoluton is "illogical" so your point doesn't stand. How can we gather evidence on God? How can we know His thoughts? Do we even understand the mind of a simple chicken? Because if we cant see into the minds of creatures that are vastly inferior to us, or so we imagine, how can we understand the will and powers of a diety? It's illogical because we're ignorant. And that in itself is logical.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

I have a challenge. I would like someone to tell me something good that has come out of religion that couldn't have been there anyway. I have been been thinking about this for a while and I can't think of any reason to believe in any kind of god, other than for weak minded people to latch onto something so that they won't feel like their life is out of control.

Allow me to add my two cents upon this;​

God is certainly not for the weak willed. For all his glory and kindness, there is a infinate foulness within it's twisted knowledge. From what I know in the Old Testament any grudges God had you ended with death, however in the New Testament even the most decent of men would be punished via hell for not even having faith in God existance, and the aceptance of Jesus reincarnation. My thoughts lead me to think that any selfless act to enter paradise is the weak choice for salvation? Isn't God kind, however this is the Christian perspective (Or rather me judging God from that perspective).


That is my gripes with God alone, lack of faith or foul acts warrents a place in hell. At least it will be warm and I'll have freinds down there...


I notice that wasn't what you asked, you asked ''What is Religion good for?''. This is what I have more issues with. God and Religion are clearly different things. God is omlipontent, all knowable, I like the fact he is quiet probally playing Smash Bros Brawl with Geno too if he does exist. For all intents and purposes I feel Religion has no purpose, for all this love and kindness is just easily spreads war and terror. I CANNOT understand how one can say they BELONG to a Religion, only one can be correct? Or would it be correct to say it is the same God for all?

“We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another.”


This sums it up nicely. It is easy to malipulate the thoughts of others with Religion. For example this so called ''War on Terror'' ... why oh why? Personally I would be more terrorfied to be on the recieaving end on this, Good and Evil is just a subtle change in perspective, can you honestly say in the future people will look back and say it was needed? I understand your retort will be it was by all means NOT a Religious campain. Perhaps I'm just blabbering away... Wow...longest post I've ever written.


By all means I'm not saying that God does not exist, rather how do you know he does?

I'll conclude my thoughts;


If Religion is True then I hate your God. If God is True I hate your Religion.


Pardon any spelling errors,

Please excuse me if you where insulted,​

It was not intentional, I love my fellow smashers dearly.​

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

Allow me to add my two cents upon this;​

I notice that wasn't what you asked, you asked ''What is Religion good for?''. This is what I have more issues with. God and Religion are clearly different things. God is omlipontent, all knowable, I like the fact he is quiet probally playing Smash Bros Brawl with Geno too if he does exist. For all intents and purposes I feel Religion has no purpose, for all this love and kindness is just easily spreads war and terror. I CANNOT understand how one can say they BELONG to a Religion, only one can be correct? Or would it be correct to say it is the same God for all?

“We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another.”

do you honestly think that if there was no religion in the world, there would be no war and terror?

This sums it up nicely. It is easy to malipulate the thoughts of others with Religion. For example this so called ''War on Terror'' ... why oh why? Personally I would be more terrorfied to be on the recieaving end on this, Good and Evil is just a subtle change in perspective, can you honestly say in the future people will look back and say it was needed? I understand your retort will be it was by all means NOT a Religious campain. Perhaps I'm just blabbering away... Wow...longest post I've ever written.


By all means I'm not saying that God does not exist, rather how do you know he does?
[/RIGHT]

your post had a lot in it, but let me address this I guess. Unfortunately the "war on terror" and specifically the war in Iraq comes dangerously close to a religious campaign. Which is a huge unfortunately, since pretty much all religion, especially christianity, does not advocate the kind of campaign waged. You don't have to look far to find religious leaders extremely opposed to the war. Religious leaders around the world were in fact a quite strong voice of opposition during the run-up to the Iraq war. Hopefully the "religious right" will become dinosaurs and people will finally wake up to the moral heart of christianity.

As to how do I know God exists? Well it depends on your definition of proof. My life is changed. Others are changed. Throughout history. I really think asking how do we know God exists for sure is kind of missing the point, because obviously the answer is we don't, but we have FAITH.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

As to how do I know God exists? Well it depends on your definition of proof. My life is changed. Others are changed. Throughout history. I really think asking how do we know God exists for sure is kind of missing the point, because obviously the answer is we don't, but we have FAITH.

I guess my problem is not so much religion, but rather Knowledge Vs God. I'm myself am agnostic, it is not so much that I can't believe that God exists. Rather that if such being existed it would be BEYOND our realm of understanding, so blind accusations agianst God existance could be considered ignorant, for we lack the knowledge to KNOW he does not exist. Just because the presence of God is not agreed to be present does not mean he is not there. Have you heard of the famous/infamous theory of ''God is Dead?''. It does not so much mean that he is 'dead', but rather he no longer acts in this world and will give no further action.

But enough babbling, I propose another question for you all.

''Were you raised into your Religion? Did your parents also belong to the same Religion?''​

 

[commonyoshi]

I'm in with TheDuplexDuo on this one. Whenever I hear stuff like "the idea of an almighty being actually having love is illogical" I cring because we're so ignorant in this area. Maybe there is an omnipotent diety and maybe he is all loving. Then our "logic", which we kinda pulled out of nowhere, is wrong.

But no, my parents aren't religious at all. Athiests.

 

[Aesir]

So can the Constitution.

This proves your lack of understanding yet again...>_>

Edit: Aiser, I've noticed from these discussions that you always ask why God didn't make this and this perfect or why He didn't do so and so. Doesn't it seem ironic to you that you're trying to bend God into your own way of thinking? Isn't that the very thing you're accusing people of doing, making gods up out of nowhere for their own gain?

I like to put words in peoples mouths so I can be cool LOLOLOL..

Thats what your post said, try again.

Asking questions and presenting the idea on why such an illogical being, who continuously contradicts himself, can create a logical world is something so wacky and unrealistic one would think it came straight out of Douglas Adams head.


Edit: Cog:

When you say certain passages can be taken literal and others can't. What exactly do you base this off of? I'm pretty sure there isn't a legend in the bible that says which is metaphorical and which isn't. Thus things get interpreted and get a WBC nutty justifying his/her actions.

The book heavily contradicts it's self,at one point you have God clearly a vengeful murderer who even claims himself to be a man of war. Then later on he's more calm down and loving. It's not like those old laws were abolished and making new laws that contradict each other doesn't exactly make the old laws go away either.

 

[Caller]

Really? I have never heard of anything like this, though I can see where it could stem from. Good point. I just wish sometimes people could do these things without clinging to something that causes so many issues and so much hate in the world.

EDIT: sorry for double post!!

When the Founding Fathers of the USA came to make this country real. They came with a Desire to have God in it. Can't blaim religion...

 

[Aesir]

When the Founding Fathers of the USA came to make this country real. They came with a Desire to have God in it. Can't blaim religion...

Lol wut? no they didn't..>_> some of our founding fathers weren't even all that religious. some of our early presidents and patriots where either deists or unitarians, basically believing in some Impersonal Providence.

 

[AltF4]

Thought I'd share some of these with you:

All Bibles are man-made.
~ Thomas Edison

In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson

I have examined all of the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our superstitions of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all founded on fables and mythology. Christianity has made one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
~ Napoleon

Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
~ Napoleon

I do not believe that any type of religion should ever be introduced into the public schools of the United States.
~ Thomas Edison

Religion is the end of love and honesty, the beginning of confusion; faith is a colorful hope or fear, the origin of folly.
~ Tao Te Ching

The ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr.
~ Prophet Muhammad

I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
~ Mohandas Gandhi

Men who believe absurdities will commit atrocities.
~ Voltaire

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
~ Nietzsche

The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine.
~ George Washington Administration Treaty

I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
~ Adolf Hitler

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own; a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms…
~ Albert Einstein, obituary

So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.
~ Bertrand Russel

The state has not the right to leave every man free to profess and embrace whatever religion he may desire.
~ Pope Pius IX

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.
~ Sir R. F. Burton

The death of dogma is the birth of morality.
~ Immanuel Kant

Pray: To ask the laws of the universe to be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
~ Ambrose Bierce

(copied from vagabox.com)

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

I'm in with TheDuplexDuo on this one. Whenever I hear stuff like "the idea of an almighty being actually having love is illogical" I cring because we're so ignorant in this area. Maybe there is an omnipotent diety and maybe he is all loving. Then our "logic", which we kinda pulled out of nowhere, is wrong.

But no, my parents aren't religious at all. Athiests.

I couldn't agree more. The Almighty God could be very well be a loving entity, we lack the knowledge to know so. But I would rather think from all his actions in the Bible hardly display much affection...floods, slaughters, earthquakes. He punishes the 'corrupt' man, which made made to be that way. Lets use the common Sandwich analogy that seems to be quite popular on these boards atm, It's like a production line on in a sandwich factory, anything which is not to the owners pleasing it removed... maybe eaten...​

Thought I'd share some of these with you:

All Bibles are man-made.
~ Thomas Edison

I have examined all of the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our superstitions of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all founded on fables and mythology. Christianity has made one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Two lovely quotes right there! I'm curious to here if everyone here belongs to the same religion as there parents? Athestism included.​

 

[Kix]

1) so is god


2) there was no fine tuning. coacervates randomly formed in the soup that we call our ocean and evolved into more advanced life forms. just because there's life doesn't mean there's a god. sure, it was very unlikely for life to have formed, but so is winning the lottery.



3) the universe didn't have to have a beginning. read the "why do people believe in god" topic in the debate hall if you want an explanation

1) Explain. While you are at it also tell me the difference for what God accounts for an explains versus Santa Claus.

2) Oh really? Think back a little farther. I'm talking about the sudden formation of the constants of the universe with the Big Bang. Keep in mind these constants formed simultaneously and that if there were a change in as little as 1 in 10^120 basically the effect on down is implosion and no form of life could exist. Then our good old planet Earth has such a convenient atmosphere!

You see here, you have it all wrong. You just made a huge mistake. The lottery has been set up to get a specific result. We have something independent that set it up. That is rational. See, to make the comparison more accurate, say winning a the lottery that did not exist prior to this point. Then multiply it to make it much more improbable. You are assuming, based on something that cannot be empirically tested, that is so absurd beyond statistically possible even giving the time supposedly taken evolved without any genetic code, without absolutely no reason to do so, then having a survival instinct and that suddenly gets better and better! Ignore the fact that even if this based-on-nothing thing were to happen but think about how this would go about and then why do you ignore the much more probably that it would die from the changes instead of getting better. Keep multiplying the improbability!

Then two genders are suddenly there! Remember if they evolve separately the organism dies because it cannot reproduce, then we have a real long time for this to happen and it just switches. Suddenly we have sentient, rational human beings! Remember there is no set-theory-of-everything that would necessitate the universe to be this ordered and have these patterns.

Considering the insane amount of patterns here pointing to something independent putting up the design, my position is well rationalized disregarding the transcendental argument, the moral argument and any evidence pointing to something outside of time and the universe.

3) Actually, according to the Big Bang theory, the only widely accepted theory (for good reason), it did in fact begin to exist. The constants were formed but it only explains the aftermath.

There is also a good reason for it to have began to exist. The universe has not reached expansion at point "infinity" which it has been expanding. Therefore for you to be correct the universe would have had to be expanding in infinity past making it irrational for it to be continuing expansion (which it is). because it would already be at point "infinity" but it isn't and could not be while it is continuing to expand.

 

[Teleco08]

Have you ever heard of evolution and natural selection (survival of the fittest)? Also now your talking about the existence of space and the fabric of time. Yes there is a very small possibility of a planet with the ideal atmosphere to have been created, but there are other planets light years from Earth that have the same or similar conditions, not so crazy after all. Also there is probably a smaller chance of God existing than the Big Bang and the creation of the universe. And the universe is expanding infinitively , this has been proven.

 

[Kix]

1) Have you ever heard of evolution and natural selection (survival of the fittest)? Also now your talking about the existence of space and the fabric of time.

2) Yes there is a very small possibility of a planet with the ideal atmosphere to have been created, but there are other planets light years from Earth that have the same or similar conditions, not so crazy after all.


3) Also there is probably a smaller chance of God existing than the Big Bang and the creation of the universe. And the universe is expanding infinitively , this has been proven.

1) Did I give you the impression that I didn't?

2) What are you talking about and that really does nothing to invalidate what I said about the physical constants or anything else for that matter. Or how it got there by chance.

3) I said the universe has not been expanding since infinity past - hence why people date it to an age. I'm also interested in how you are going to argue how God is less probable, because I think you don't really have an argument for that.

 

[Teleco08]

Well seeming that we exist i think that is proof enough that God does not exist, what i mean by this is that the possibility of us existing defies the existence of God. On your second point, yes we where created by chance, purely.

 

[Kix]

Well seeming that we exist i think that is proof enough that God does not exist, what i mean by this is that the possibility of us existing defies the existence of God. On your second point, yes we where created by chance, purely.

Can you clarify? Why would us existing mean that God does not exist? Also, I am arguing that we were not created through chance as much of the science is not verifiable and cannot be tested. Furthermore these theories do not account for is behind these things as I mentioned a few posts up.

 

[Teleco08]

Because in the theory of evolution which combines natural selection and advancement in species, the bad "mutated" versions are "discarded". The proof of the theory of evolution being true, and i can assure you this theory has a load of info/proof to back it up, makes God non existent because if he/she did exist then everything would be created in 7 days and evolution would of never taken place. And i was wondering do you believe in creation Kix?

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

Here is a question for you both, whoever gets it right wins God;

God created Light on the first day, however God created the Heavens, planet, stars and all other celestral bodys excluding earth and TIME on the 5th day. (Earth's construction begane on day 2 if I remeber correctly). How could Light exist if it had no movement since the 5th Day did as time did not exist? More importantly how did they 'Day' exsist before the earth? Since the convental 'day' as we state is a full reveloution of the earth (24 hours). So time has a second factor, God must be omipontent if he was to know the day WAS to exist.

Another question, how could it be stated that all the stars in the heavens existed? Even when Adam and Eve poped up there skys would of been a boring affair, lit by a few stars at the very best. The majority of the stars in space light would of not of been able to reach for an incredible of years if not longer.

It's a curious thought I've had for quite a while.​

 

[Teleco08]

The obvious and simple answer is: God does not exist.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

Edit: Cog:

When you say certain passages can be taken literal and others can't. What exactly do you base this off of? I'm pretty sure there isn't a legend in the bible that says which is metaphorical and which isn't. Thus things get interpreted and get a WBC nutty justifying his/her actions.

The book heavily contradicts it's self,at one point you have God clearly a vengeful murderer who even claims himself to be a man of war. Then later on he's more calm down and loving. It's not like those old laws were abolished and making new laws that contradict each other doesn't exactly make the old laws go away either.

The example I gave (pluck out your eye/cut off your hand if it causes you to sin) is clearly a metaphor (parable). Others are more difficult to see and may have several levels of meaning. You're right, there isn't a legend in the Bible explaining how things should be interpreted, perceived and applied. This isn't an easy to understand self help book that we're dealing with here. The Bible has a multitude of layers and people spend their whole lives studying and grappling with it and still learn new things until the day they die. No one is claiming that it's easy. There are numerous writings on this subject.
Several metaphors are used extensively in both the OT and NT. Water, vines, fruit (of the spirit), trees, even fishing. Some verses help out by explaining a bit: Isaiah 5:
“And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; and break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. I will lay it waste; it shall not be pruned or dug, but there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain on it.” For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
So yeah obviously God isn't fretting over his Garden.

Seriously the WBC crap is done. It's a straw man agrument and kind of ridiculous.

Now you might point out how this is showing God's callousness and a vengefulness but it was in fact tough love. He is not a vengeful murderer. That's not true.
As to the "Man of war" statement (Exodus 15:3)... have you ever considered that the writer is referring to spiritual warfare, which is a common theme throughout the Bible? A just and righteous God above all the feuding armies of men? But He doesn't sugarcoat it.

I've already laid out what's going on with the old law and the new law.... Jesus didn't make new laws that contradicted the old ones. All of the old laws were #1 terribly situational and #2 pointing towards the completion of God's promise and the completion of those laws. Hence, JESUS THE CHRIST. It was all pointing towards Him, and once He did what He came here to do, the arc was complete. Hence, once the final sacrifice was made, no more sacrifices. And that's just the ritualistic stuff... the moral stuff hasn't changed. But it did get misinterpreted: in regards to the sabbath grain-picking, Jesus said the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.

Two lovely quotes right there! I'm curious to here if everyone here belongs to the same religion as there parents? Athestism included.​

Both of my parent's faiths has changed over the years... but to answer your question no I kind of not in the same belief system as I was raised.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

Here is a question for you both, whoever gets it right wins God;

God created Light on the first day, however God created the Heavens, planet, stars and all other celestral bodys excluding earth and TIME on the 5th day. (Earth's construction begane on day 2 if I remeber correctly). How could Light exist if it had no movement since the 5th Day did as time did not exist? More importantly how did they 'Day' exsist before the earth? Since the convental 'day' as we state is a full reveloution of the earth (24 hours). So time has a second factor, God must be omipontent if he was to know the day WAS to exist.

Another question, how could it be stated that all the stars in the heavens existed? Even when Adam and Eve poped up there skys would of been a boring affair, lit by a few stars at the very best. The majority of the stars in space light would of not of been able to reach for an incredible of years if not longer.

It's a curious thought I've had for quite a while.​

sorry for the double post, but this is really missing the forest for the trees. and I would encourage you to look up commentaries/analyzations on those passages. it gets complicated (lol like Creation would be simple), and is a topic for another thread.

 

[Kix]

Because in the theory of evolution which combines natural selection and advancement in species, the bad "mutated" versions are "discarded". The proof of the theory of evolution being true, and i can assure you this theory has a load of info/proof to back it up, makes God non existent because if he/she did exist then everything would be created in 7 days and evolution would of never taken place. And i was wondering do you believe in creation Kix?

Okay, but what if the bad was all there was, which is more likely? Of course assuming something evolved from something that was not alive with no rhyme or reason and then somehow some force made it go for advancement, even more likely it would have died even assuming this possible.

I believe things evolve but I do not believe they have ever in the way they try to make it. First of all, there is too little evidence for it, mostly based upon what is small advancements and the incredible lack of transitional stage candidates which should be abundant. I believe that God created things that are mostly how they are today. I haven't really taken a position on the age of the Earth or universe per se.

It also does not make God non-existent as as I've said this still does not explain how the constants were perfectly set up for intelligent carbon-based life as well as even assuming the large scale huge evolutionary changes as true - does not explain why there were so many patterns put in place being caught and not being set in design. This all points to something independent.

Also this ignores any other arguments as well as the transcendental argument.

Here is a question for you both, whoever gets it right wins God;

God created Light on the first day, however God created the Heavens, planet, stars and all other celestral bodys excluding earth and TIME on the 5th day. (Earth's construction begane on day 2 if I remeber correctly). How could Light exist if it had no movement since the 5th Day did as time did not exist? More importantly how did they 'Day' exsist before the earth? Since the convental 'day' as we state is a full reveloution of the earth (24 hours). So time has a second factor, God must be omipontent if he was to know the day WAS to exist.

Another question, how could it be stated that all the stars in the heavens existed? Even when Adam and Eve poped up there skys would of been a boring affair, lit by a few stars at the very best. The majority of the stars in space light would of not of been able to reach for an incredible of years if not longer.

It's a curious thought I've had for quite a while.​

You are thinking fourth day. However, there are some arguments but I'm not really sure what position to take yet.

Firstly, God simply separated light from dark on the first day. The differences in the two were set in place and whatever else comes with it. The other planets, stars/ect. only became visible on the fourth day if you look at the Hebrew so I'm not exactly sure what this means. Maybe it had to do from the perspective of the Earth and the atmosphere. Your second paragraph itself may help you understand this. Since I need to learn more Hebrew I haven't exactly taken a position on this.There are some different takes on this, obviously. God is describing these in what be the time period of a day so humans can understand. Of course it is also possible God sustained these supernatural before everything was put in place, I'm not sure.

I don't understand by what you are saying "time did not exist" as it just might have. The Earth did exist hence the atmosphere and stuff on the second day. Do you think Yahweh here is not omnipotent or something?

 

[Aesir]

Cog:

First part of your post I'm more a less in agreement with you, I find the entire book to be metaphorical.

though the second part not so much, the god in the OT clearly supported mass murders, and the laws of **** where well ******** to say the least.

I don't see how you can't see him as someone who's callous. But in all honesty I don't care, I think I've been debating in this thread for like 2 months straight? I'm kind of sick of it personally...>_> and honestly I don't claim to be some biblical scholar, I know a good deal about the OT but not nearly as much as I should lol. I'd rather just agree to disagree, but if you wanna continue this I'll do it after all I have an obligation to not look like a douchebag. lol

Kix: did you learn evolution for a ****** or something?

 

[Kix]

Kix: did you learn evolution for a ****** or something?

Explain yourself.

 

[arrowhead]

Thought I'd share some of these with you:

All Bibles are man-made.
~ Thomas Edison

In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson

I have examined all of the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our superstitions of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all founded on fables and mythology. Christianity has made one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites.
~ Thomas Jefferson

Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
~ Napoleon

Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
~ Napoleon

I do not believe that any type of religion should ever be introduced into the public schools of the United States.
~ Thomas Edison

Religion is the end of love and honesty, the beginning of confusion; faith is a colorful hope or fear, the origin of folly.
~ Tao Te Ching

The ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr.
~ Prophet Muhammad

I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
~ Mohandas Gandhi

Men who believe absurdities will commit atrocities.
~ Voltaire

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
~ Nietzsche

The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine.
~ George Washington Administration Treaty

I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
~ Adolf Hitler

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own; a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms…
~ Albert Einstein, obituary

So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.
~ Bertrand Russel

The state has not the right to leave every man free to profess and embrace whatever religion he may desire.
~ Pope Pius IX

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.
~ Sir R. F. Burton

The death of dogma is the birth of morality.
~ Immanuel Kant

Pray: To ask the laws of the universe to be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
~ Ambrose Bierce

(copied from vagabox.com)

ill quote this because i like it.

1) Explain. While you are at it also tell me the difference for what God accounts for an explains versus Santa Claus.

easy. people created the idea of god. people created the idea of santa clause. but since you won't be satisfied by that, i'll answer your question with a question:, how can you prove the stories about santa clause didn't start from somebody who actually got a present from him? oh wait. you can't. i guess that so-called evidence plus the fact that there are kids in the world that get presents from an unknown source proves santa exists.

2) Oh really? Think back a little farther. I'm talking about the sudden formation of the constants of the universe with the Big Bang. Keep in mind these constants formed simultaneously and that if there were a change in as little as 1 in 10^120 basically the effect on down is implosion and no form of life could exist. Then our good old planet Earth has such a convenient atmosphere!

yeah, our planet does have a convenient atmosphere. never mind that there are many other planets in the universe with life-supportive resources. never mind that our planet was lucky enough to be revolving around the sun at an appropriate radius. never mind that our planet is one of millions to actually sustain life. i guess our "immeasurable luck" proves there is a god

You see here, you have it all wrong. You just made a huge mistake. The lottery has been set up to get a specific result. We have something independent that set it up. That is rational. See, to make the comparison more accurate, say winning a the lottery that did not exist prior to this point. Then multiply it to make it much more improbable. You are assuming, based on something that cannot be empirically tested, that is so absurd beyond statistically possible even giving the time supposedly taken evolved without any genetic code, without absolutely no reason to do so, then having a survival instinct and that suddenly gets better and better! Ignore the fact that even if this based-on-nothing thing were to happen but think about how this would go about and then why do you ignore the much more probably that it would die from the changes instead of getting better. Keep multiplying the improbability!

you are so ignorant. take a biology class.

Remember if they evolve separately the organism dies because it cannot reproduce, then we have a real long time for this to happen and it just switches.

i always wished animals of the same species created other animals of similar genetics when they reproduced.

Suddenly we have sentient, rational human beings! Remember there is no set-theory-of-everything that would necessitate the universe to be this ordered and have these patterns.

Considering the insane amount of patterns here pointing to something independent putting up the design, my position is well rationalized disregarding the transcendental argument, the moral argument and any evidence pointing to something outside of time and the universe.

uh, no. it took tens of thousands of years from us to get from hairy standing monkey to intelligent human.

from what you've been saying, i can confidently assume you know nothing about evolution, or reproduction, or... biology.

3) Actually, according to the Big Bang theory, the only widely accepted theory (for good reason), it did in fact begin to exist.

There is also a good reason for it to have began to exist. The universe has not reached expansion at point "infinity" which it has been expanding. Therefore for you to be correct the universe would have had to be expanding in infinity past making it irrational for it to be continuing expansion (which it is). because it would already be at point "infinity" but it isn't and could not be while it is continuing to expand.

the big bang theory is older than the no boundary proposal. you do the math
read: http://everythingforever.com/hawking.htm

The constants were formed but it only explains the aftermath.

i have a theory! a swirling mass of hubhub created matter. what? that doesn't sound as logical as a god? man, i guess i just need more money. you know, so i can brainwash people like some churches do.


keep in mind i'm not saying there is no god, only that it is unlikely enough for me to be able to safely say there isn't one.

 

[Aesir]

Explain yourself.

Your understanding or rather lack their of, of evolution really makes it hard for me to take you seriously.

You seem to lack even the slightest idea of early life on earth. Did you know some of the oldest life forms are single cell organisms which produce oxygen? they were the first photosynthesis using life forms because of them oxygen could become an abundance on the planet.

What significance does this have? simple without Oxygen you don't have life.

 

[commonyoshi]

This proves your lack of understanding yet again...>_>

Prove it for me, please.

I like to put words in peoples mouths so I can be cool LOLOLOL..

Um... I see the irony? -_-
It was my analysis of your arguments. That's the way you've been coming off to me. If that wasn't your intent then a simple explanation would have been suffice. No need for LOLOLOL's.

Asking questions and presenting the idea on why such an illogical being, who continuously contradicts himself, can create a logical world is something so wacky and unrealistic one would think it came straight out of Douglas Adams head.

You're basically proving my point with this paragraph. The whole point is that we dont and never will have all the info, nor could we understand it even if we did. That's why it seems "wacky" just like how people in third world countries would find evolution "wacky" without a proper education. The difference between these two scenerios is that we are incapable of understanding no matter how long and hard we study because it's beyond our limit.

I couldn't agree more. The Almighty God could be very well be a loving entity, we lack the knowledge to know so. But I would rather think from all his actions in the Bible hardly display much affection...floods, slaughters, earthquakes. He punishes the 'corrupt' man, which made made to be that way. Lets use the common Sandwich analogy that seems to be quite popular on these boards atm, It's like a production line on in a sandwich factory, anything which is not to the owners pleasing it removed... maybe eaten...​

God didn't make man corrupt. He made man capable of free will which, under the wrong path, went into it's own corruption. It'd be like if the sandwiches started putting eggplants into themselves. Eggplants suck.

 

[simplicityho]

Absolutely nothing.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

God didn't make man corrupt. He made man capable of free will which, under the wrong path, went into it's own corruption. It'd be like if the sandwiches started putting eggplants into themselves. Eggplants suck.

I agree yet I don't, this sums up morality. You forget that some people may like EGGPLANT sandwiches. Other may not, this a a perfect example of meta-ethics and moral realism.

@ Everyone else using the Big Bang theory

You do know this is a rather outdated theory, have you heard of the Superstring theory? Some knowledge of quantum mechanics may be needed.​

​

You're basically proving my point with this paragraph. The whole point is that we dont and never will have all the info, nor could we understand it even if we did. That's why it seems "wacky" just like how people in third world countries would find evolution "wacky" without a proper education. The difference between these two scenerios is that we are incapable of understanding no matter how long and hard we study because it's beyond our limit.

Quoted for the pure WIN FACTOR!

@ Everyone talking about the IMPOSSIBLE odds of our evolution.

Have you heard of the MWI? (many-world interpration). Some knowledge upon Multiverses may be needed. Baslicly were are here simply because it DID happen. A famous example is Schrödinger's cat. However at heart this is more to do with probability. If you want to test this with your self, create a similar scenario but over a longer time where the odds are very improbable if you live. And if you live you could very well conclude you just happened to be in the right universe for you. However resulting the would be a substantial amount of dead you in other univeses.

Now once you have all learned that we lack the information to even make a educated guess that God exists or does not come back for more Science tutoring. ​

 

[Aesir]

Prove it for me, please.

What evolution? Take a biology class, it would literally take me months to explain it all.

Um... I see the irony? -_-
It was my analysis of your arguments. That's the way you've been coming off to me. If that wasn't your intent then a simple explanation would have been suffice. No need for LOLOLOL's.

How am I coming off? arrogant? well yeah I naturally would come off as arrogant, as religion is just as illogical to me as astrology.

You're basically proving my point with this paragraph. The whole point is that we dont and never will have all the info, nor could we understand it even if we did. That's why it seems "wacky" just like how people in third world countries would find evolution "wacky" without a proper education. The difference between these two scenerios is that we are incapable of understanding no matter how long and hard we study because it's beyond our limit.

Evolution isn't beyond our limit, theres mountains of evidence to support it, once you look at the facts the idea that we just popped up 6000 years ago is ********.

Just because something is beyond our "limit" as you put it, to understand doesn't mean it exists.

 

[Kitten]

Anyone who doesn't accept evolution is either not educated enough, too stupid to comprehend it or not willing to comprehend it.

People can say what they like about microevolution and macroevolution. They are the same thing. One is just the other on a larger scale. Evolution has been observed not only in viruses and bacteria which are in this sense almost exactly the same as larger life just happening at a much faster rate, but also in speciation, where a species will split in to two different species to adapt to its environment.

Most people have heard the saying 'evolution is just a theory, like gravity'. We observe gravity and accept it to be true. Likewise, we observe evolution, but blinded by faith or ignorance, people still deny that it is true.

 

[AltF4]

The whole point is that we dont and never will have all the info, nor could we understand it even if we did.

And that's just the most ridiculous thing ever. You're accepting that your beliefs don't make sense, but choose to believe in them anyway. Rather than trying to find something that actually makes sense.

You're saying that even if we had all the information possible in the universe, and your beliefs still weren't consistent with the evidence, you would continue to cling to them. How else can I define ignorance than that? Refusing to accept that you're wrong even when presented with all of the possible information in the universe?

 

[Teleco08]

Religion is for the ignorant and people that lack knowledge. Kix you are a classic example of someone that lacks general knowledge, such as evolution, I think it would be good if you understood these 99.9% true theories and then come back with an argument against them that actually makes sense."Keep your enemies closer than your friends."

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

Cog:

First part of your post I'm more a less in agreement with you, I find the entire book to be metaphorical.

though the second part not so much, the god in the OT clearly supported mass murders, and the laws of **** where well ******** to say the least.

I don't see how you can't see him as someone who's callous. But in all honesty I don't care, I think I've been debating in this thread for like 2 months straight? I'm kind of sick of it personally...>_> and honestly I don't claim to be some biblical scholar, I know a good deal about the OT but not nearly as much as I should lol. I'd rather just agree to disagree, but if you wanna continue this I'll do it after all I have an obligation to not look like a douchebag. lol

Really? The whole thing's metaphorical? Even the parts about specific people doing specific things? What is the life of Jesus a metaphor for? You can't just make it all or nothing. Obviously parts of the Bible are going to be hard to understand, and thusly open to certain forms of interpretation. But all of it is attempting to get to the True heart of the scriptures.

Callous: heartless, unfeeling, coldhearted, uncaring. Even with all the destruction, smiting, and so forth, Yahweh of the Old Testament is not callous. Everything is done with the purpose to keep His people on track, safe, and righteous. That's caring. I don't claim to be a biblical scholar either, but I know pretty much all biblical scholars agree with me.

The point is, all the OT and obv all the NT point towards Jesus and to live by His words is the goal.

some people may like EGGPLANT sandwiches.​

​

LIES!

EDIT: Teleco08: I'm pretty sure most scientists wouldn't put evolution (in all its shapes and forms which you seem to include) in the 99.9% category.
The whole evolution conflicting with Christianity debate is kind of silly, since there are a multitude of Christian scientists who believe in it in some way. Stop making it a B&W issue and calling people stupid.

 

[Aesir]

Really? The whole thing's metaphorical? Even the parts about specific people doing specific things? What is the life of Jesus a metaphor for? You can't just make it all or nothing. Obviously parts of the Bible are going to be hard to understand, and thusly open to certain forms of interpretation. But all of it is attempting to get to the True heart of the scriptures.

Okay maybe metaphorical is the wrong word lol, I was flustered when I wrote that LOL. Life of Jesus wasn't a metaphor obvious, the supposed life of Jesus was just away to get the pagans to accept Christianity. By having a savior figure very similar to their own savior gods.

Callous: heartless, unfeeling, coldhearted, uncaring. Even with all the destruction, smiting, and so forth, Yahweh of the Old Testament is not callous. Everything is done with the purpose to keep His people on track, safe, and righteous. That's caring. I don't claim to be a biblical scholar either, but I know pretty much all biblical scholars agree with me.

I don't think supporting mass murders, slavery and some really strange laws on **** would count as a way to keep his people righteous. He didn't kill them for no reason, he had a reason just a very stupid one.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

Okay maybe metaphorical is the wrong word lol, I was flustered when I wrote that LOL. Life of Jesus wasn't a metaphor obvious, the supposed life of Jesus was just away to get the pagans to accept Christianity. By having a savior figure very similar to their own savior gods.

The life of Jesus was a way to get people to convert to the religion of following Jesus? O_o. Um what.
Who was behind this? The religious people at the time? They ostracized and hated Jesus, and plotted to have him killed. They certainly weren't concerned about converting 'pagans'. They thought the savior would come and deliver them from Roman rule and be a literal king in the land. The disciples made it all up? Yeah there was a lot of gain for them in that... living a travelling life of poverty for a while, and eventually getting martyred.
The reason Jesus' story is similar somewhat to other savior stories I believe is because those stories were reaching for a savior as well, attempting to get there, and eventually Jesus was the perfect example of it.

I don't think supporting mass murders, slavery and some really strange laws on **** would count as a way to keep his people righteous. He didn't kill them for no reason, he had a reason just a very stupid one.

Protecting his people and punishing wickedness is a stupid reason? God didn't kill or advocate killing flippantly, and do not murder is one of the 10 commandments, which was the most vital teachings/rules to the ancient jews. And again, the time where this happened was incredibly tumultuous and very hard for us to relate to/understand. If you want to get into specifics (this **** law?), please do!

 

[Aesir]

The life of Jesus was a way to get people to convert to the religion of following Jesus? O_o. Um what.
Who was behind this? The religious people at the time? They ostracized and hated Jesus, and plotted to have him killed. They certainly weren't concerned about converting 'pagans'. They thought the savior would come and deliver them from Roman rule and be a literal king in the land. The disciples made it all up? Yeah there was a lot of gain for them in that... living a travelling life of poverty for a while, and eventually getting martyred.
The reason Jesus' story is similar somewhat to other savior stories I believe is because those stories were reaching for a savior as well, attempting to get there, and eventually Jesus was the perfect example of it.

I'm not saying the Jews did, I'm talking about the early church fathers at the time, defenders of the faith.

Except those other savior gods came many centuries before Jesus ever did. Often times having an unusual birth, known nothing of his childhood, prescribes laws, dies a unusual death usually on a hill top or cross sometimes a tree I think, then resurrected after a few days or so.

Theres a whole book dedicated to this type of study, actually there are many books dedicated to this study LOL.

Protecting his people and punishing wickedness is a stupid reason? God didn't kill or advocate killing flippantly, and do not murder is one of the 10 commandments, which was the most vital teachings/rules to the ancient jews. And again, the time where this happened was incredibly tumultuous and very hard for us to relate to/understand.

If you're dealing with a book that is the infallible word of god, and god is suppose to be origin of justice/morality. You can't just say "oh thats the way things were back then" and expect it to be all right.

Thats just silly, it would be like saying it's okay for Christians to kill Muslims because they're infidels in the eyes of Christians.

If you want to get into specifics (this **** law?), please do!

Sure

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 according to this you have a female virgin being *****, now I'm sure we can agree how wrong and immoral **** is, and how damaging it can be on a psychological level.

However according to this if she is ***** as a virgin, the male must marry her and they can never divorce, and he must pay her father 50 pieces.

Doesn't that seem ********? seriously I'm sure there were times where loved probably formed during these marriages, but I'm sure you know woman usually will hate their rapist, and being subjected to be with your rapist until you die isn't just.

I'll just post that one, theres about 3 others I know off the top of my head, but that would become hectic I think..>_>

 

[antimatter]

the good thing that has come out of religion is that if you say "God is watching", you can (not always) prevent someone from doing something wrong. i've done it even with my atheist friends, and even they get the picture that they are about to do something bad. and these are smart people who can outsmart me almost instantly, but if you say that, they straighten up a bit. true story. i have no reason to lie.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

I'm not saying the Jews did, I'm talking about the early church fathers at the time, defenders of the faith.

So the original Apostles and very early leaders (Paul). I already described how that doesn't make much sense. The early church wasn't used as a method of control or getting $$ or anything bad... I don't see these nefarious motives...

Except those other savior gods came many centuries before Jesus ever did. Often times having an unusual birth, known nothing of his childhood, prescribes laws, dies a unusual death usually on a hill top or cross sometimes a tree I think, then resurrected after a few days or so.

Theres a whole book dedicated to this type of study, actually there are many books dedicated to this study LOL.

There's also many books dedicated to disproving this theory.

If you're dealing with a book that is the infallible word of god, and god is suppose to be origin of justice/morality. You can't just say "oh thats the way things were back then" and expect it to be all right.

Thats just silly, it would be like saying it's okay for Christians to kill Muslims because they're infidels in the eyes of Christians.

how would it be like that? love you neighbor.

Sure

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 according to this you have a female virgin being *****, now I'm sure we can agree how wrong and immoral **** is, and how damaging it can be on a psychological level.

However according to this if she is ***** as a virgin, the male must marry her and they can never divorce, and he must pay her father 50 pieces.

Doesn't that seem ********? seriously I'm sure there were times where loved probably formed during these marriages, but I'm sure you know woman usually will hate their rapist, and being subjected to be with your rapist until you die isn't just.

I'll just post that one, theres about 3 others I know off the top of my head, but that would become hectic I think..>_>

The translation of this verse isn't clear, and **** is probably the wrong word here. http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ot_and_rape.htm
Virgins were supposed to remain pure, so if she was seduced (not *****), and slept with a man, she became impure of sorts. So this rule was set up so the man couldn't go "Heh I got some and she's stuck with the blame, I'm awesome." and instead has to live with the consequences of his actions: a hefty dowry and completely what the sex was supposed to in the first place: marriage. Yeah read the link.

 

[GreenKirby]

I like how some (note some not all) atheists here claim that beliving in God makes you ignorant. Yet they never have the guts to say that in real life.

Internet thugs. >_>