Recovery Tier List (Updated 1-5-07)

[Fortress | Sveet]

Not really. It's the same deal as Zelda's & Sheik's teleports.

you can hit them. they dont grab the ledge at the end of their invincibility. it might be hard, but after playing one for a little while u get the timing down.

 

[Earthbound360]

yay ness moved up

Eh? Ness is where he was. Still, I say near Yoshi. His recovery length is over Bowser and DK with the any direction bonus. Just about as good recovery as GW, but Luigi I dunno.

 

[mcc]

if you guys are talking about stalls, mewtwo's up b takes away his invincibility

edit: to earthbound-i meant he is gonna move up

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

misfire can sometimes be bad on BF too

as the list goes down, the gaps between the categories decreases

cape can be used at something fired at you :/. anyways, if tornado and up b is all doc can do, I wouldn't say it's very good. the distance he gets is horrendous.

i dunno lol


yay ness moved up

im not saying its the best or anything, just that its not the worst. i think roys is a bit worse, but doc really shines when coming from above cause he can use his DI quite well.

 

[F8AL]

Doctor mario can use his cape, down+b (press b very fast and it'll make him up slightly up) then up+ to recover very well... i learned that from my friend!

 

[Magus420]

No. I'm talking about if you cancel it on the edge with a downward angle you can't hit them when they reappear.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No. I'm talking about if you cancel it on the edge with a downward angle you can't hit them when they reappear.

thats very true magus, but that isnt going to happen while trying to get maximum distance after getting hit away.

edit:: im not really debating m2's position, i think he has one of the top recoveries in the game. i would really like to see marth go up, he is much much better than that. middle of middle tier easy.

 

[<π]

Arlight, I skimmed through all the posts and made just a few changes. I know that I missed some stuff so if I did, remind me of what they are.

To acknowledge some of the suggestions that you made but wasn't changed on the list:

Someone mentioned bowser's upb gained very little horizontal distance. That is wrong: his horizontal distance is actually quite decent. As long as you are di'ing towards the stage before you do his up and b, you should get a lot of distance. That and the fact he has a disjointed hit box on his upb makes his recovery definitely not bottom 3.

Ganon: Yes, we will never or should never die at less than 100% but I can't get over the fact that his recovery is so easily edgeguardable. I guess I'm a little biased; I main marth who plays against a friend who mains a very good ganon and dtilt/neutral b demolishes his recovery; basically, unless he sweetspots with his second jump, he's dead once he gets off the stage.

Ness: I was about to move him up because a few of you agreed but I dont know how much to.

Yoshi: Yoshi can mindgame. More often than not he shouldn't die because of lack of an up b. He can airdodge anytime throughout his upb. I don't know I find the fact that his second jump goes so far annoying and facing a decent yoshi recently, I hardly killed him till past 100%.

You get a chace to read my post?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

oh going back to something mcc asked me before about samus recovering from the fall m2 couldnt on FoD, i just did a fall (actually i think it was a bit farther) and recovered from it with a bit of space left. jump + airdodge to grapple to jump + wall jump from that jump + upb = ledge (i didnt realize this before but grapple takes your 2nd jump so i was wrong when i listed the samus recovery in a previous post.)

 

[Magus420]

Unless you DI poorly, M2 can just air control back to above edge level, even without a jump unless they get spiked, and the only time you'd really get spiked with him is when you still have your jump. There isn't much need to maximize it and angle it upwards for the most part.

 

[F8AL]

You cant control Mewtwo's up+b range can you?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You cant control Mewtwo's up+b range can you?

no u cant. not unless u stop it with a wall of some sort.

to magus, true u can DI very well, which is one of his strongest things, but samus also has very very good DI, she would have a very solid recovery even without the bomb jump. i will give u the cancelable upb, but i am just saying that if u do not do that, u can still be hit out of it.

 

[B-Will]

You get a chace to read my post?

Yes I read your posts...I thought everything you suggested I already acknowledged. What in particular did you want me to see?

With ness I'll move him shortly; while I will move him up I don't think he necessarily needs to be moved up all the way to around yoshi. I'd like to hear other opinions about that.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yes I read your posts...I thought everything you suggested I already acknowledged. What in particular did you want me to see?

With ness I'll move him shortly; while I will move him up I don't think he necessarily needs to be moved up all the way to around yoshi. I'd like to hear other opinions about that.

have u read my posts on marth? >_>

 

[chronofreak]

Don't forget about poor Mr. Game & Watch; move him up at least once to make us GaW players happy! But seriously, there's a load of evidence back on pages 13 and 14 that GaW has a really good recovery, and it's not just his great up b move; it seems a lot of people are forgetting that his awesome DI helps with horizontal recovery, too.

 

[Elemennopee]

Bowser should be moved down. His recovery is very easy to edgehog, edgeguard, and spike or even meteor because his Up B gains almost no vertical distance.

And I don't think Mario should be at bottom. His Tornado gives him some vertical and horizontal distance, his cape cuts off all of the knockback of an attack, he can save his double jump for defending himself against edgeguards, and he can extend the horizontal distance of his Up B, which is great for sweetspotting.

 

[Airo]

PLEASE DO NOT SKIP THIS ><
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_MnF8eXLme4&search=ssbm ether

this video is more than enough to say why samus shouldnt be so high....

her options... extremely limited.
her up B has horrible unpredictability, priority, tragectory, and hitbox range.
you can bomb jump all you want, but in the end, your grapple only pulls you in one direction..
also not every stage has a perfect low ground for your grapple beam to grab
not every stage has a good walljump spot

so my point is that, her recoveries depend too much on having a wall. and not all stages have ideal walls.

in a tournament, if your opponent has a choice of stage, samus is very screwed over.


on the other hand, mewtwo and jigg recoveres from anything.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

Samus upB has bad priority? am I missing something?

G&W should be higher. People say his horizontal recovery is nonexistant, but his DI seriously moves him at 40 degrees or something.

 

[sheepyman]

Samus is incredibly heavy...

The point of bomb jumping is that she can't be intercepted easily, because the bombs have decent priority, not to mention they propel her towards her desired direction. Not only that, but she has a grappling hook which she can use on nearly all stages, with good range and an upB with relatively good priority.

Personally I'd put Samus above Mewtwo.

 

[Airo]

well i guess ill do a different analysis.
i humbly acknoledge that i dont know alot about samus.
i dano enough to do a good samus analysis.. ill be as logical and unbiased as i can. you can add to me all ya want.

mewtwo
---------
-second best vertical reach
-third best horizontal reach
-best second jump in game
-shadowball trajectory
-floatiness grants very good air control
-teleport is multidirectional
-has a rising fair
-has an elementary aerial stall
-teleport has perfect sweetspot
-teleport has very low landing lag
-huge grab range
-confusion grants aerial defence from projectiles


samus
--------
-bombjump adds to mindgame
-bombjump gives aerial defence
-bombjump adds to horizontal range
-floatiness permits very good air control
-airdodge gives extra range
-grapple gives additional horizontal reach and vertical reach
-walljump
-grapple to perfect sweetspot
-upB gives additional range.

Samus is incredibly heavy...

we aim to look at recovery capabilities, not survivability. otherwise... jigglypuff would fall all the way to mid tier.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if u past page i proved that on FoD samus can survive any fall as long as she does not die all the way, although mewtwo cannot. btw, using that one vid to say that samus has bad priority is not accurate. marth has a disjointed hitbox, essentially making him the highest priority character in the game (because you cant hit marth by hitting his sword, only his body), you might as well start saying samus' nair has no priority cause it doesnt go through marth's sword. btw, mewtwo doesnt really have a rising fair, as he his second jump djc'es. go pick m2 and go to the edge and press down, jump, and forward on the cstick all as fast as u can and in that order, and u will see m2 do a fair right next to the edge, and then fall having no jump. hardly a rising fair. samus on the other hand DOES have a rising fair, which has a disjointed hitbox, much better IMO.

samus excells when she has a wall, but even when she doesnt she can almost always make it back. as i stated before, mewtwo is very highly dependant on his second jump, it is more than half his recovery. samus does not rely on any one part of her recovery too much. her bomb jump is probably the biggest part, but even without it she can DI and use her upb and grapple to make it back most of the time.

 

[Magus420]

I also proved right afterwards that you don't know how to do M2's recovery either. M2 makes it to the ledge on FoD if you do it right. btw yes, he does have a rising fair out of the 2nd jump. It's how you get extra distance on the jump, though it doesn't necessarily have to be a f-air.

 

[Pikaville]

Pika should be higher.He can recover from ridiculous distances and his recovery is also very versitile.You can practically use recovery mindgames with his up b.He deserves to be in top tier.Not to mention the fact you can cancle lag on his recovery if your good.Also if your confident enough you can zoom through your opponent as you get back on then zoom away in the same direction(with that down to foward up b)

 

[Drephen]

marth and doc have some of the best recoveries in the game!

falco's isn't bad either

you guy focus too much on the moves of characters

you forget about DI and the different options certain characters have

 

[<π]

any situation doc can recover from the people above him can do the same either but generally with better options.
The same can also be said for falco and marth. These characters main problem is lack of distance, and If you can DI with one character you should be able to do it with them all.

 

[Mew2King]

ROFL I told people that Jiggs and Mew2 were the best recoverers and Roy and Doc were the worst for over a year now and they didn't believe me, but now this list has it exactly how I do.

Pichu recovers farther than Pikachu I believe, and Peach is too low, she can float, peach bomb up FD, use umbrella, attack them while coming down, she's clearly too low.

-

Edit - Bowsers recover is GARBAGE, it's way too easy to edge guard, and you cant even sweet spot well, and if you predict the sweet spot you can just edge hog. If you go high you get Marth Daired, go too low you get Marth Forward Smashed, I'm sure other characters have similar gay edge guards, Bowser sucks unless it's teams.

 

[B-Will]

Drephen brings up a good point about DI. While I never really forgot about it, I haven't been implementing it into the list very much because I wasn't sure if the list should be based off of recovery alone and nothing else or if we should factor in DI. If so, it does change some things. For example, people have been complaining about G&W's placement. The prior argument that I have made is that he lacks horizontal recovery. Well with how floaty and light G&W is, he really doesn't need that horizontal recovery with proper DI so maybe he'd move up on the list I don't know. I could see why doc may move up a little bit on the list if DI was involved but even then, Doc's recovery is crap IMO, regardless of options. It kind of changes things.

Anyways I haven't read through all the posts and I'm too lazy to think about this right now. Keep posting!

EDIT: Mew2King you haven't been the first to complain about bowser's recovery so I'll probably move that around. He's definitely moving under ness (I still have to move ness a little up) and maybe more. heh...he's definitely not bottom 3 as stripesorbars suggests though.

 

[Mew2King]

No, this is a recovery list, not an endurance list. If we wanted to know how long characters would live, we would have an endurance list, and IMO Donkey Kong has the most of that, probably followed by like Bowser or Samus or Yoshi (although Samus dies up quickly and Bowser can get gayed, they still have high endurance on like, DL64 or something). Fox and Falco also have amazing endurance if he doesn't get gayed or edge guarded.

 

[<π]

The thing with peach's wallbomb is while yeah it can gain a lot height it's very stage dependant there ar eonly a handful of stages where you can do it. (I think it's limited to FD, Yoshi's story and kinda FoD). Other stages either you can't do it or it's just not worth doing.
The other thing with WallBombing it give your opponent enough time to set up for an easy edge gaurd, and similar to how you mention with bowser if you antisipate the timing on the sweet spot and egdge hog the peach is done.

yeah, before there are heart attacks, I know who he is, XD

 

[B-Will]

heh I agree with <3 about peach. Her vertical recovery is subpar. That is the only attribute that I have a problem with about her recovery. I mindgame peaches all the time so I can edgehog her. One of peach's problems is that she is very vulnerable during her upb and they are scared of attacks intercepting her while she is floating. If you make like you are going to attack her, they may decide to go for grabbing the ledge to avoid that and then you can proceed to edgehog her.

I think I'll stick with what mew2king said about not factoring in DI. I really haven't been doing it this whole time and I am going to continue doing that.

 

[Magus420]

In that case if including optimal DI the faster fallers can just take hits more vertically when the floatier chars would die off the top and need less horizontal recovery distance.

I agree with Bowser's recovery being quite bad. I think he should be more around Falcon. He can get a good sweetspot at the end of the up-b, but they'll usually be able to see it coming if you go for it and just hog. His edge tech is awful as well. Your only option after teching is airdodging basically.

He can take a lot of hits when recovering and come back thanks to his weight, but that's survivability not recovery. Same thing with Ganon, his weight doesn't make the actual stuff that gets him back onto the stage any better. Just gives him more tries at his crap recovery to make it back.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Bowser's recovery is horrid. It goes less than Falco's Up B. It's at least bottom 5.

 

[Mew2King]

Which is why Bowsers good at teams, where tanks are broken.

 

[StripesOrBars]

I won't even argue with that.

Also mr mew2king, what is your take on the fox marth match up.

 

[Magus420]

Giant targets GET broken in teams too though.

 

[Tope]

I believe Pika's and Pichu's recoveries are the same length, Pichu's is just slower making it easier to place, and also easier to predict.

Pichu also has less landing lag than that of Pika.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Pichu can ride walls too.

 

[<π]

Pichu can ride walls too.

Pika can't?

and Doodah, bowser's up B is only bad (talking strickly distance here) when he has fight momentum. If he is moving towards the stage at all ot give excelent distance far better than falco's.

 

[B-Will]

Yes, I think you and I already mentioned that before. Bowser actually gets relatively good horizontal recovery just as long as he is DI'ing towards the stage before using his upb. If he his DI'ing backwards, then yes his recovery goes nowhere. Regardless of this, I suppose he is very easy to edgeguard and edgehog so he will be moving down.

Are you all suggesting that pichu should be above pika? It seems like they both have their pros and cons that are unique to one another.

 

[Airo]

if u past page i proved that on FoD samus can survive any fall as long as she does not die all the way, although mewtwo cannot....



...btw, mewtwo doesnt really have a rising fair, as he his second jump djc'es. go pick m2 and go to the edge and press down, jump, and forward on the cstick all as fast as u can and in that order, and u will see m2 do a fair right next to the edge, and then fall having no jump. hardly a rising fair. samus on the other hand DOES have a rising fair, which has a disjointed hitbox, much better IMO.

you do know that mewtwo can go UNDER and AROUND final destination WITHOUT using the ledges right?

you use your aerial at the top of mewtwos second jump and it wil make mewtwo go much higher than usual. mewtwo has the highest rising fair in game