Recovery discussion, good and bad

[Kink-Link5]

As long as Sonic gets the same treatment as G&W and can't air dodge out of up-B I'll be happy.

Bonus points if they both can air dodge if they use the move from the ground.

 

[The_NZA]

is doing aerial upb's integral to any of these characters on stage combo game?

ONe way to solve that dilemma is making it so that using upb from the ground allows you to use your second jump after. Basically making it so that springing with sonic from the ground is like using your initial jump.

 

[leelue]

is doing aerial upb's integral to any of these characters on stage combo game?
.

SNAKE
Sonic doesn't need it for that and game and watch... idk I wouldn't call it integral but it is pretty good on him.
I only don't say something like "here are videos of them using this, it's important" because any character with upbs that can give them a decent boost at times better than their jumps would make use of it. These 3 were just chosen to have it. Like, I'm sure if DDD had this feature he'd love it to death.

 

[The_NZA]

Yeah, but leelue––while everyone would like upbs they can act out of, maybe these character's games were designed a bit around this mechanic. Snake for instance sort of needs it to put on close range aggression. GnW needs it for OOS options and comboing people. Sonic benefits from it, but might not need it. Ya know?

 

[leelue]

Is this different from what I said?¿
perhaps my tone isn't coming across
Maybe I should emphasize the part about having more lag so it's more punishable on like a Martha or falcon or a squirtle. I'm not saying I think dolphin slash or diddys barrels should have combo potential, I think that I just don't "get" why it goes into special fall from the ground. But if you open the door for more characters, even if just a few and just narrowly, to try and do something with it it might be a good thing fitting for a sequel.

 

[The_NZA]

oh...your saying trying to test all upb's from the ground not putting you in special fall could be good for the game.

I thought you were saying the converse of the statement. Basically (everyone could benefit from it, so its not a good argument for certain characters to have it).

 

[leelue]

I was trying to show something from a square one perspective. Like, snake obviously was designed to use it (even though now Kb stacking messes with him) and the other characters are more like... This is good because of how high I go. game and watch was made to use it though, I wouldn't argue against that because it is true.

 

[The_NZA]

I think it works though in Sonic's gameplay of being the fastest guy getting you from anywhere on the screen. The safeness of his recovery sucks but i like his vertical combo game with upb.

 

[leelue]

Mobility: the hedgehog
Ha imagine if Luigi could upb from the ground against an airborne opponent, coin them once, and follow up with dair
Hyyyyype

 

[hotdogturtle]

Mobility: the hedgehog

Original character do not steal

 

[MonkUnit]

Mobility: the hedgehog
Ha imagine if Luigi could upb from the ground against an airborne opponent, coin them once, and follow up with dair
Hyyyyype

turbo mode

 

[leelue]

I don't think turbo mode will be particularly hype, tbh. At least, not after the first few days of sexual exploitation.

 

[The_NZA]

what if you gave everyone the ability to cancel their grounded up-bs into attacks. Would that be silly?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Risk/reward is a touchy subject. Like, it probably would skew things significantly if, like, Luigi or Bowser got that.

 

[The_NZA]

I mean those upB's that sent you up. Nvm, it was silly to consider.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

In that case, it could be interesting to consider for some characters. Say, if Lucario went back to not having a hitbox on Up-B, but could cancel it into non-B moves without having to use a super meter stock.

 

[The_NZA]

It sounds good on Lucario...honestly lucario's hitbox on upb seems pretty dumb to me.

Maybe it would work on Ike as well. His upb can trap people at the top of the aether, setting them up for a bair. It would make it an okay OOS option.

Potentially marth although maybe it would be too powerful.

On luigi.

I might like it on wolf (it would make his upb hitbox as a combo starter make more sense).

It benefits a lot of interesting characters that arguably right now lack some oomph.

 

[leelue]

I'm just happy that it sounds like something that can be looked into.
to clarify, I was not talking about canceling into other things, just no special fall out if upbs that send you up.
With lag adjusted accordingly

 

[MVP]

in this game, nobody has a ''bad'' recovery.

 

[leelue]

How about falcon?

 

[Deleted member]

Or Ness. Distance UpB travels is great, but everything else is ugh.

 

[The_NZA]

yeah. There are some work arounds (go high, aim low, try and hit the ground so you are lagless) but in Ness definitely has weaknesses to his upb.

 

[Archimbald]

Having just skimmed through the thread (I'm tired), I feel like we're dancing around something that hasn't really been said:
Recoveries should be fragile things, but not useless.

A useless recovery, (id est, Ness (that rhymed), ) makes the edge-guard phase boring for both parties. The aggressor might get a bit of dominance pleasure, but even that gets old. That feeling of dominance becomes much more meaningful when the aggressor's decision is harder to make. It should be noted that timing and spacing are decisions, and it should also be noted that I am avoiding the word "difficult." I don't want to provoke an argument on difficulty of execution, because that's a big red herring.

However, it's at least equally boring for a recovery to be a free-ticket to center stage.

It feels great to edgeguard Fox because both players are making their decisions based on the data the other player gives off. It's an interaction of the most intimate sort.

 

[PhantasyStar]

I wonder how this thread is going to be when yoshi's in the game...

 

[Vashimus]

Yoshi will probably get greater air speed than Wario and a ridiculous double jump anyway.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Yoshi is the finickiest character. By default he pretty much has to keep his goofy character-specific shenanigans, then where do you go from there? Give him strong fundamentals to make him more approachable and Yoshi-dedicators will come around and abuse both the strong basics and bull**** inherit to the character. Make his shenans easier to do and you have a polarizing character with one of the most annoying designs. It's all very touchy.

Oh and his recovery could just follow the Melee SDR route if anything. He already has one of the most dedicated recovery paths.

 

[Vashimus]

What's the Melee SDR route again? Refreshing the double jump with side-B?

 

[Kink-Link5]

No, Side B just gives a horizontal hop and does not go into special fall.

 

[JOE!]

I'd rather Side B just be replaced with something else.... :V

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'd be perfectly agreeable with making Yoshi's side B spin dash.

 

[JOE!]

Should be a shine that turns into a sex kick.

 

[standardtoaster]

take it to the idea suggestion thread

 

[0RLY]

Smash would be a much more interesting game if special attacks didn't put you into special fall, and just put you into 'unable to use specials until landing/ledgegrab/attacked'

Then everyone can be as good as Sonic, right?

 

[TheKittyloaf]

I think a large part of people thinking recoveries are "too good" is that they aren't used to new character recovery moves and don't always choose the right option to punish it.

I can definitely agree with this statement. Personally, it feels like the developers of the game didn't want to step on any toes when putting together the full cast's recoveries. Even though I'd say that this game is geared much more towards melee players, it is of course trying to bridge the gap and bring Brawl players over to the fast-pace style of M's gameplay. One thing; however you put it, recoveries across the board were relatively much better in Brawl than Melee. So, in translating the characters to a melee-styled game, they kept a lot of the "Good" recoveries from the brawl cast, and comparatively they may seem a bit much. I was having the very same conversation with my friend recently and I mentioned that there are easily five characters that come from brawl who are contenders for "the best" recovery if they were instead in melee. I can't say that I'm the most knowledgeable player or know the exact statistics or placement of recoveries in melee, but from what I've put together the top 5 are probably Mewtwo (although underused), Peach, Jigglypuff, Samus and Link (each having their various reasons [massive single and double jumps with an impressive up + b, float + stalling up + b, near infinite horizontal recovery with rising pound and 5 midair jumps, excellent horizontal recovery through bomb jumping and grapples], respectively). But, the brawl cast brings along characters like Charizard, Diddy Kong, Snake, Sonic and Ivysaur. Hell, even ZSS, Toon Link and Dedede are up there. Though it may seem like these recoveries are seemingly overpowered just because it is something that a lot of melee veterans are unused to, it's undeniable that it allows for some dangerous play from the brawl cast which is relatively safe considering some of the situations they put themselves in offstage. Calling out my goofball of a training partner here where one of the only differences in our playstyle is when I go deep for a kill offstage and am unsuccessful, even if i'm in range of reaching the ledge or stage practically, my immediate thoughts consist of "censored, censored, censored, i gotta' get back right now or i'm done for!!" and his are: "oh, i missed? let me jump and try for another downair, again??? i guess i'll use my third jump... well, i still have my up + b with an average vertical recovery." Coming off as a butthurt, melee player is not my intention. I just am putting it out there that I agree recoveries in general are better than they are in Melee. Of course, some of the veteran characters were given improvements to their recoveries like donkey kong and bowser, but it pretty much goes unsaid that they were almost necessary along with other improvements to make these characters tournament viable at highly competitive levels. With that, most of the top tier characters from melee had their recoveries unchanged and before I start sounding repetitive, they just seem to be lackluster in comparison to the P:M definition of "best recoveries". With all of that said, I don't think that recoveries should be nerfed across the board or even selectively for brawl characters. It's just something that everyone will have to get used to and once things get figured out, will be just as punishable as any melee character. Once you're offstage, it should be a bit of a struggle as you are in the worse of the two situations, but keeping you offstage as the character defending the stage shouldn't be free.


optional to notice: this is all opinionative, of course, uhduhh

 

[CyberZixx]

I just want them to make the edges act like they do in Melee. Too snap to the edge from too far away in this game. Were I to change anything about Project M it would be that. If you miss your upb close to the edge, you should fall and die, not snap to the ledge. Don't reward poor recovery spacing.

 

[leelue]

Oh and his recovery could just follow the Melee SDR route if anything. He already has one of the most dedicated recovery paths.

I just realized

How the hell was anybody supposed to know this

I just want them to make the edges act like they do in Melee. Too snap to the edge from too far away in this game. Were I to change anything about Project M it would be that. If you miss your upb close to the edge, you should fall and die, not snap to the ledge. Don't reward poor recovery spacing.

Bowser
Down
Tilt
.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If someone does not understand something they are more than free to ask.

 

[JOE!]

Another thing that is continuously brought up:

A lot of recoveries plain sucked in melee.

Oddly enough, most of the best characters had great / the best recoveries of that game.

Coincidence?

 

[leelue]

If someone does not understand something they are more than free to ask.

I think it's more reasonable to make judgment calls and not make references that a gigantic portion of the audience won't understand.
Being informative saves time

 

[Kink-Link5]

Another thing that is continuously brought up:

A lot of recoveries plain sucked in melee.

Oddly enough, most of the best characters had great / the best recoveries of that game.

Coincidence?

Marth, Falcon, Doc, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Ganon

Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Peach, Samus, half of Pikachu

So probably yes.