Recovery discussion, good and bad

[Kink-Link5]

Getting out of a bad situation should be difficult for the defending player. Keeping an advantageous position should be less difficult for the attacking player. Easy-modo momentum killing is one of the most unrewarding feelings a game can provide.

 

[leelue]

Define difficult, please

 

[a vehicle]

Difficult: something that requires you to fully use your resources as a player to achieve an objective, that would be strategy, speed, skill, knowledge or mental play.

Getting out of a bad situation should be difficult for the defending player. Keeping an advantageous position should be less difficult for the attacking player. Easy-modo momentum killing is one of the most unrewarding feelings a game can provide.

Couldn't have said it better.

Because right now the game feels like trading hits until someone is at kill percent

 

[leelue]

That is not how the game feels for me. Perhaps 2-3 stocks out of the 7 that are lost in a game but gimps are far from uncommon.

Maybe that's because I use my resources as a player to achieve this objective- strategy, speed, skill, knowledge, and mental play.

With exception made to the best recoveries (pit sonic, etc) in the game, it isn't that hard. It's not super-easy, but it is challengingly obtainable. Granted there are a few of these recoveries where I'm like "yup, you still had a glide left", but these are still in the minority if you ask me.

 

[a vehicle]

Fair point, so we can agree that because recoveries are easy to perform that makes edge guarding more difficult.

That doesn't sound fair does it?

It should be difficult both ways

 

[The_NZA]

I don't think recovering is easier than edgeguarding is. I totally disagree there. Who gets back to the stage with ease without taking damage? Maybe sonic. Every one else is still likely to get smacked around a bit if you know how their recovery functions.

 

[Juushichi]

Granted there are a few of these recoveries where I'm like "yup, you still had a glide left".
"yup, you still had a glide left"
"yup, you still had a glide left"

How I feel about this situation:

 

[t3chn0g0at]

Funny enough, I feel like the characters that are affected the least by this the least are Fox and Falco. Fox's shine and backflip are still going to take you out, and Falco just has to be a little campier. Characters like Marth that rely on gimps, however, are pretty shafted by the overall better recoveries.
On landing lag:
It is incredibly frustrating to play characters like Sheik/Marth/Falcon* with their 'kill me plz' landing lag on their up-Bs, only to struggle to punish the minimal lag on my opponent's up-B. Though Fox is the worst for this, he's certainly not the only one.

*I know these characters should be grabbing the edge instead of landing on stage. Anyone who knows what they're doing will obviously prevent this.

 

[Deleted member]

All I'm gathering from this discussion is that people think Diddy needs more landing lag and Sonic needs fewer options out of UpB. Besides those two, who are the rest of these characters whose recoveries are so out of place that they would lead people to conclude that P:M recoveries are too good in general compared to Melee?

Fox? He was in Melee so he doesn't even come into play here.
Jigglypuff? Was in Melee
Peach? Was in Melee
Pikachu? Was in Melee
Pit? Please explain why the boy with wings shouldn't have one of the best recoveries in the game or be very difficult to gimp.
Wario? Why, because of the Waft? The same move that people complained shouldn't send him into freefall in 2.1?
Snake? He lost his armor on UpB so it's very easy to intercept and keep smacking him offstage.
Zelda? Why shouldn't she have a long ranged recovery considering she dies easier to kill moves than most of the cast .
DDD? No.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Zelda? Why shouldn't she have a long ranged recovery considering she dies easier to kill moves than most of the cast .
.

Because she kills characters much sooner than most of the cast as well. When a weak point is already counterweighted by a strong point, further compensation isn't really necessary or remotely fun. Zelda dies at 90% and kills at 70% while being one of the least interactive character designs in the game.

 

[a vehicle]

who are the rest of these characters whose recoveries are so out of place that they would lead people to conclude that P:M recoveries are too good in general compared to Melee?

Sorry but it's no secret that all recoveries are actually better at this game than they were at melee, if that's what you're arguing about then you're on the wrong side. Brawl newcomers should have their recovery twaked into the new standard (isn't that why metaknight hasn't been added yet anyways?)
And that's not even the point anyways, we're talking about on how recoveries are affecting the P:M gameplay, not how they're different from the predecessor.
And while some characters stand out in powerful recoveries we're talking about a general change that would really change they way the game is played, and this is the kind of topic that should draw the attention from everyone: casuals, pros and mods.
I'm not trying to have mods nerf Diddy's or Sonic's recovery, I want them to change the game.
So instead of arguing why are they so OP hypothetics in this thread should follow ideas such as "what would happen if we reduce the edge-hog range" or pondering on "maybe it's not a matter of balance but a matter of design"

 

[leelue]

Well, 4 out of the best 6 characters in melee (fox, falco, puff, peach) had half of the best recoveries in the game (Mewtwo, pikachu, and... wait... samus... and...)
ok so 4 of the best 7 recoveries in the game belong to 4 of the best 6 characters in the game. Out of 26.
(I don't know where to rank ICs because they are lame)

I don't think it's fair to set the bar for recoveries to the "average" from melee. It would seem like we should be aiming for ~2/3s of the cast to have really good recoveries.

Zelda.... one of the least interactive character designs in the game.

you're interacting, it's just not any fun for the opponent.

It should be difficult both ways

With exception to some, it isn't easy to recover

 

[Deleted member]

This argument did start because of comparisons between the average recovery in P:M and the average recovery in Melee and the idea that better recoveries somehow make the game worse. My point is that some of the best characters in Melee had good recoveries, so it's completely unfair for people to pick on brawl newcomers/improved Melee veterans for having good recoveries as if the concept is so alien.

 

[leelue]

I can't tell where that comment is directed towards

 

[DrinkingFood]

Who was it that had the signature that suggested we remove the stage and give everyone infinite jumps, and where is he when you need him?

 

[Darkgun]

Who was it that had the signature that suggested we remove the stage and give everyone infinite jumps, and where is he when you need him?

You see now this is an idea. Heck, why not take this a step further?
>Everyone gets two (or more) extra midair jumps.
>All characters get On Hit Midair Jump Reset.
>Aerials can clash.
>All spikes treated as Meteors.
>Recoveries reset on hit and do not send user into fall state.
>Remove all stages and platforms. Add different windboxes and call them stages.

Behold: SSBB Project M Stratosphere Edition. A fighting experience in which not only is combat between characters incredibly interactive, but it is required. How well can you keep yourself afloat and kill your opponent? Featuring strategic jump spacing, high tension combat, and a diverse and risky projectile vs. contact style of play.
------------------



I wish I could actually contribute a bit more to the subject on the matter, but I guess I just don't feel strongly enough about it. Want the enemy dead, jump off the stage and go get 'em. Want to play it safe, stay on the stage and go for defensive edgeguards. Edgeguarding is naturally easier than neutral game, but I should think that it should not be so easy as to be next to brain dead. That isn't to say that weakening recoveries would make edgeguarding rediculously easy, but it would certainly mean that the person on the edge would have the utmost dominance, as opposed to merely a major positional advantage who's final success would often come down to knowing the matchup and one or two successful reads or walling off the opposing character completely.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You see now this is an idea. Heck, why not take this a step further?
>Everyone gets two (or more) extra midair jumps.
>All characters get On Hit Midair Jump Reset.
>Aerials can clash.
>All spikes treated as Meteors.
>Recoveries reset on hit and do not send user into fall state.
>Remove all stages and platforms. Add different windboxes and call them stages.
Behold: SSBB Project M Stratosphere Edition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9KWEZSxVvQ somewhat related and not at all on the topic of recovery.

Oh, and Mario level specialfall landing lag is just as unacceptable as Fox level to me.

 

[Deleted member]

I can't tell where that comment is directed towards

Sorry, was responding to this:

And that's not even the point anyways, we're talking about on how recoveries are affecting the P:M gameplay, not how they're different from the predecessor.

 

[a vehicle]

well i've presented a handful of reasons of why they do make the game worst, and so has other people in this thread, for which you've responded to none.
If you again respond something regarding fox's recovery i'm done replying to your posts

 

[Deleted member]

I don't agree with you that it's too easy to make it back on stage for free for the majority of the cast. I don't regularly see people getting back for free with there being nothing you could have done about it. I think generalizing that recoveries are too good in this game is a mistake. It should be on a character by character basis, rather than a criticism made of P:M as a whole. I personally only have problems with around 3 or 4 recoveries that I think should be toned down.

 

[CORY]

lucario's recovery is pretty damned silly, too, imo. especially if it's walled, but even in general, he's a pain to deal with.

though, he at least has landing lag after it, so that helps somewhat.

 

[Hoenn]

At least in P:M we don't have a character with Meta Knight's Level of recovery.
The only character I would ever want to see have that is Ice Climbers... Developers, I'm begging you :D

 

[The_NZA]

well i've presented a handful of reasons of why they do make the game worst, and so has other people in this thread, for which you've responded to none.
If you again respond something regarding fox's recovery i'm done replying to your posts

Lol, comon dude. Be real.

You said this game's recoveries should reflect the average recoveries in melee.
Someone replied, "well, this game is trying to do away with tiers so if you are talking about average recoveries of viable characters in melee, actually 4/7 viable characters had amazing recovery."
you replied "everyone in this thread says this makes the game worse and you said nothing in response"

Actually, most people in this thread are saying that recovering isn't free. You almost always take damage. There might be some broken characters, but most characters haven't gained a ton of options in recovery––only distance. And the thing about distance, it allows you to intercept recoveries farther away from the stage.

 

[0RLY]

May I just be the first person to explicitly say that PM recoveries and edgeguarding are perfectly fine as they are. No need to compare anything to melee or nerf characters. Complaining doesn't make you a better player. Just adapt.

Adapt.

 

[leelue]

Even though I agree that I like recoveries where they are, generally, I like the fact that we can complain and maybe get something changed if it's really stupid.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As an aside, a Wario is only going to use Down-B to recover if he manages to get gimped (which shouldn't happen with that kind of horizontal aerial mobility) or if he is absolutely going to lose his last stock without it (super last-ditch desperation).

 

[a vehicle]

I don't agree with you that it's too easy to make it back on stage for free for the majority of the cast. I don't regularly see people getting back for free with there being nothing you could have done about it. I think generalizing that recoveries are too good in this game is a mistake. It should be on a character by character basis, rather than a criticism made of P:M as a whole. I personally only have problems with around 3 or 4 recoveries that I think should be toned down.

That's the kind of reply I was looking for in this thread

May I just be the first person to explicitly say that PM recoveries and edgeguarding are perfectly fine as they are. No need to compare anything to melee or nerf characters. Complaining doesn't make you a better player. Just adapt.

Adapt.

Perfectly valid opinion, I'm not trying to complain my way to the top thou

Even though I agree that I like recoveries where they are, generally, I like the fact that we can complain and maybe get something changed if it's really stupid.

That's a good thing, right?.

You said this game's recoveries should reflect the average recoveries in melee.
Someone replied, "well, this game is trying to do away with tiers so if you are talking about average recoveries of viable characters in melee, actually 4/7 viable characters had amazing recovery."
you replied "everyone in this thread says this makes the game worse and you said nothing in response"

I said that recoveries should be nerfed (pointed out a few reasons why) , and then used melee recoveries as an example (and then some P:M recoveries as an example too, read the Ivysaur post). Maybe it's this forum, but people are always on defensive when it comes to comparing P:M to melee.
I still haven't heard the first reason of why recoveries being this way are making the game better, most are saying, "they are this way, deal with it" or "it's my opinion that they're good as they are"

 

[The_NZA]

People aren't uncomfortable making comparisons with melee––people are rather having issues that you aren't making fair comparisons with melee. The top tier in melee almost all had good recoveries. 4/7 of the viable characters had decent to great recoveries. I think some of the recoveries are wack in this game, but many are decent. Let's talk about the wack ones.

 

[leelue]

That's a good thing, right?.

As annoying as it can be, I think it's a good thing to have this ability overall. I was responding to what I thought was a "Get better, stop complaining" tone in the post I was quoting, instead of a "I think the problem is just where your group is in terms of being good at edgeguarding" tone.

 

[GP&B]

I agree with the sentiments on the disparity between Fox and Mario's special fall landing lag. Something around the middle on average so that landing on stage is still not super safe but you also don't have to sit on your ass for a year before you can do anything.

 

[John12346]

Offtopic, can I ask what the deal is with some characters having recovery special moves that send them mostly upwards(between -45 and 45 degrees upwards I guess) without putting them in special fall? I'm not complaining about it... too much... but it's been on my mind for a while and I've just gotten the curiosity to ask about it. I think the characters capable of this are Snake, GaW, Sonic, and R.O.B.? Although I can understand why R.O.B. has his the way it is. In the other three characters' cases, though, the recoveries are already really good, covering some respectable distances and covering themselves with either invincibility or a get out of jail free hitbox, so I'm just curious as to why they're also afforded free actions afterwards? From what I remember in Melee(and heck, most of P:M, too), ALL of the characters with a recovery move like that traditionally go into special fall after using it, or have their options limited after use(Peach, for example), so why Snake, GaW, and Sonic in P:M?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Lol, comon dude. Be real.

You said this game's recoveries should reflect the average recoveries in melee.
Someone replied, "well, this game is trying to do away with tiers so if you are talking about average recoveries of viable characters in melee, actually 4/7 viable characters had amazing recovery."
you replied "everyone in this thread says this makes the game worse and you said nothing in response"

The problem with this rationale being that characters like Doc, Falcon, and Marth manage to be just fine with terrible recoveries.

 

[GP&B]

Doc's recovery ;_;

 

[Mr.Pickle]

The character recoveries I have a problem with is diddy and mario, in terms of them being too good. I'd list sonic but eh whats the point lol. Dk seems to have some silly attributes to his recovery, but its not to point to where I won't accept it if they don't change it. I can give my reasons in detail if need be.

 

[leelue]

The problem with this rationale being that characters like Doc, Falcon, and Marth manage to be just fine with terrible recoveries.

]
Martha is the third fastest character in the game and with a sword. And Ken combo. And forward throw forward throw omg why am I peach. Falcon has testosterone. Doc is not just fine..

 

[leelue]

Offtopic, can I ask what the deal is with some characters having recovery special moves that send them mostly upwards(between -45 and 45 degrees upwards I guess) without putting them in special fall? I'm not complaining about it... too much... but it's been on my mind for a while and I've just gotten the curiosity to ask about it. I think the characters capable of this are Snake, GaW, Sonic, and R.O.B.? Although I can understand why R.O.B. has his the way it is. In the other three characters' cases, though, the recoveries are already really good, covering some respectable distances and covering themselves with either invincibility or a get out of jail free hitbox, so I'm just curious as to why they're also afforded free actions afterwards? From what I remember in Melee(and heck, most of P:M, too), ALL of the characters with a recovery move like that traditionally go into special fall after using it, or have their options limited after use(Peach, for example), so why Snake, GaW, and Sonic in P:M?

Honestly, from the ground, I'd like to see every character have either a linkstyle up b or a snake style one (from the ground). You could tweak the lagtime between coming out of the up b and being able to act so it's punishable more or less, but I would think this is very cool if I ever saw it. I don't know why grounded upb sends you into special fall tbh.

 

[The_NZA]

I think air dodging after those special upbs makes no sense. attacking makes slightly more sense, especially wehn its a slow up b like snake's. Maybe making them only fail to enter special fall when they use them from the ground could be a good way to balance them.

 

[John12346]

Well, my reasoning is that, from what I recall, Snake gets instant invincibility + hitbox and good distance from his UpB, Sonic gets instant invincibility + great distance from his UpB(plus his other methods of recovery...), and GaW gets an instant hitbox and good distance with his(although it would probably serve to buff GaW's recovery a bit more while still giving him special fall). They already get quite a few concessions with their recovery moves, so it seems odd that they'd be able to do w/e they want afterwards in addition to all of that. Certainly something to think about, I'd say.

Also, I like the idea of no-special fall grounded UpBs, that would add a whole new layer of depth to the game, but it's probably just wishful thinking...

 

[Oro?!]

Marth isn't even in top 5 for run speed in PM. He is overall very mobile, but you cannot outspeed Sonic/Zard/ZSS.

 

[leelue]

He was talking about melee, oro, as was I.
Come now
He said "doc"