Reality Check: Items, Levels, & Adv Techs

[Limey]

If the friend code thing is true, it renders this whole thread even more pointless.

This thread is basically a tourney player explaining to casual players why tourney rules are used, and therefore good.

In turn, casual players will reply, saying "but this is why we like casual rules, and why they are therefore good."

When it would be a lot easier for everyone to play as they wish, and therefore shut the **** up.

 

[slikvik]

Source on info please.



Wait, you don't have one

there you go, google is amazing people. use it instead of bashing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Wi-Fi_Connection

 

[Adi]

You don't see a random guy getting into a boxing ring with a pro because they would be destroyed. I hope the same thing doesn't happen to online play.

That's because random guys don't jump into matches with pro boxers. They box with people at their skill level. So, if you don't feel like improving, find people of your own skill level to play with and never improve and just play to have fun, believe it or not competitive players are totally cool with you doing that ^^.

The best option would be for matched to be determined by style, i.e. how you want to play. That way you'd never have some guy signing online to have a wacky match filled with bob-ombs and star rods completely obliterated because he walked into a tourney rules battle with a mega pro.

ALA Halo 2 Match-Making, mmm that would be amazing.

 

[the grim lizard]

>_< I'm not sure if they will continue with the friend code thing, but actually...it's probably better. It would be really hard to implement a random/whoever is available system. There are so many options and variability in setting up stuff (items, what items, what stages, type of match, etc.) that it would be best just to know who you're dealing with.

Besides, it's not that big of a deal. I'd rather find people on SWF to play against than some noob NSider or whatever. Most people around here decent people (in characters, no necessarily with their characters >_>). Anyway, they're OK to deal with, and it would probably be easier to find someone of your skill level.

Besides, it would be awesome to say to someone who was flaming you "OK, let's take this to a Brawl match..." and just jack them up (or get jacked up...). But if that happened, it would be awesome if there was a way to just view the match without participating. ^_^

 

[Anther]

I'm not fine with people staying at the same skill level. They deserve to burn. >=|

 

[Limey]

That's because random guys don't jump into matches with pro boxers. They box with people at their skill level. So, if you don't feel like improving, find people of your own skill level to play with and never improve and just play to have fun, believe it or not competitive players are totally cool with you doing that ^^.

I know. That's why i went on to explain that i think online matches should be split up between styles of playing, or by using friend codes, so an average guy doesn't end up getting into the ring with a boxer, metaphorically speaking.

 

[greenblob]

Don't most games have an option to play people at your skill level?

 

[linkw00t]

If you don't like to play that way, play the way you want to play! No one is forcing you to do a 4 stock match w/o items or "play only on FD" (which is completely untrue BTW, study up), then DON'T. It's a great concept. The way we play does not affect you, so why does it matter to you so much? I'll answer that question, most of the people that say these things are just spiteful. Maybe they got beaten really badly by someone better than them, maybe they saw a tournament and was angry because they don't play the way he wanted. Who knows... But the fact remains: you can play any way you want. We will play our way, you can play your way.

You say this, but mean something completely different. Sure people CAN play anyway they want to play, but in reality how many legit smashers could just turn on items and start playing that way if they WANTED to? Sure, it's technically possible, but due to the way that tournaments are arranged (VERY specific circumstances that make the scenario "fair" to both players) drag ANYONE who wants to learn how to play the game on a "Competetive Level" (Which in essence means you always have to abide by a general guideline set forth by the general tournament community) has to completely change the way that they play to adapt to how someone ELSE wants the game to be played. It's not as easy as simply saying "I think I'm going to start using items today." Because expectations have already been made.

This is in the Brawl board, so you must be starting to assert rules to the game when it's not even been demoed yet.

Which brings me to ANOTHER point, being that most of the points you bring up about Brawl are about Melee. You're talking about ITEMS in Melee, STAGES in Melee, and ADV. TECH's in Melee. How does any of this affect Brawl? This thread is obviously in response to Viewtiful's thread. Which indeed was actually about Brawl to a more specific degree.

In your Advanced Techniques section, all you talk about is WD'ing, which is obviously an exploit. A very good one, like ALL exploits. It adds good things to the game yes, but in that respect, shouldn't ALL characters have equal WD's? To make it "fair"? Because Bowser players don't really have the "fair" end of the deal.

All that being said, my main complaint about this thread, is that is has very little to do with Brawl, and more about what people SHOULD be doing as far as rules are concerned by what Melee has done. Which is obviously a flawed insight, seeing as they're two different games, with different characters, stages, items, techniques, and development teams.

This should have been posted in the Melee board.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Well in MKDS online it shows the opponents win loss record b4 you play. So just logg out b4 racing. I have 138 wins and 38 loses. This one time I met a guy who had over 7000 wins and had like 1000 loses. He pwned me so bad lmao. He even fell and was able to catch up to me, when I'm pretty good myself.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Wavedashing IS a great technique, but it's not everything. That was adressing the numerous players who are ignorant and arrogant enough to blame all of their losses on WDing. It allows you more freedom and mobility, but it's not a be all end all technique like snaking seems to be.[/I]

That's my point, it is a great and VERY important technique. In the orginal thread, the first post. You make it seem like WDing is nothing, just a exploit.

Wavedashing allows you to move backwards without changing directions faster than running while attacking and moving towards and egde hog, not to mention it allows you to waveland off of platforms.

You need to edit the orginal post and mention how important the WD is. It may not be everything but it's very very important. And people deserve to know that. Wavedashing is very important, possibly overpowered, it wasn't inteneded to be used the way it was in the least bit. You need to mention that in the thread, otherwise there is a misleading bias feel to it.

 

[Rikka]

Wavedashing bows to the mighty shffl

 

[Salaad]

My guess. You either can't apply them or just learned the techniques, and nothing else. In this senario, yes, then it's not an insant win. I can wavedahs too. But that doesn't mean I can astcually use it. I can just make Mario move foward. Is this WD, yes. But it's far from refined.

But, if you can actually do it probperly it gives you an advantage over someone else, and an unfair one at that.

Let's say that two people of equal skill, same character, FD, and no items fight(with no play style clash). Their essentually equal. But one can L Cancle and WD. The other, can't. Who do you think is going to win.

Is this skill. Yes. But it's not skill in how the game is ment to be played. It distracts from the game and your exploiting something that is not ment to be in the game. You won not becuase you were better, but becuase you know a cheap trick the other player wasn't aware of. If both players are of equal skill then the one with the advance techs. will always win becuase he can do what the other oplayer can do, just faster and better.

It's not fair to other players. This is online I speak off. Tournamnt play is different. But when playing online, just for fun, it can ruin the game. So, the end result........

Basically, if these tach. are left into Brawl, people who have them get an edge over other players. It IS an advantage. You move faster and flow better, giving you an edge. Basically, their will be two people. Ones who learnt hem and get really competative, and those that stop playing. So now online is just a big "PWN" fest with no fun what so ever. This is what happened to Mario Kart. Snaking made the gamne compatative and ruined a lot of the characters and elemnets of the gamne. The same will happen to Brawl.

I don't lose because I don't know how and when to apply WD. I lose because of projectile spam and shine spikes at 21% -.- SO ANNOYING. In those cases, I don't believe you can apply advanced techs to that...

This should just end right now, let people play the way they want to play (online) If you don't like it...that's a different story. =/

 

[@ce]

The thing about items in tournaments is that most of the Melee items aren't worth keeping on, not to mention the fact that any item on means exploding crates (which is the real problem). But, anyway, there is no reason to keep on Raygun or Mushrooms or Bunny Hood or Bat or Hammer or a lot of other items. Items like motion sensors and a few like those can be strategic in themselves. But again, even with items like those, you have the crate issue.

I think that if they fixed the exploding crate issue, there is no reason to keep out all items. I think a lot of tournaments would allow items on low with some restrictions such as motion sensor bomb, fan, and other reasonable (not completely random and/or abusive) items.

i agree with you. thats the only problem i see with items. Its the **** random exploding crate issue. WHYyyyyyyyyyy did they put that in. items would definetely be tweaked for tournament play or maybe just a few tournaments if ONLY u didnt have a 5% (i think thats it?) chance for a crate/capsule/egg to blow up on you. Its the main problem my friends see with items too.

Oh and about playing the game it was meant to be played. AS far as im concerned, when i get a game, its mine right? I have every right to play it exactly how i want to. it just so happens that i agree with tournament rules and find that playing smash that way is much more enjoyable than a random explosion taking my (or my opponents) stock.
Loved reading this thread!
peace and keep on discussing!

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Eaode, I think you made some really good points. (espesially with the items. If money's on the line at a tourney, I don't blame people for not wanting any luck to be involved in the game)

I have no problems with the whole stage thing (I often play on FD with my friends when we duel)

The WDing thing is something I don't want to get involved with because it could go on foreva...

And for the Fun thing, well, to each his own.

 

[B_Smash07]

Much love Eaode. TAKE THAT CASUAL N00BS!

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Much love Eaode. TAKE THAT CASUAL N00BS!

You know, that's what pisses off casual player mostly. One of the reasons casual players fight so hard against everything that tourney people stand for is because there seems to be this automatic assumption that just because we don't play tourney like they do, that we're suddenly n00bs, scrubs, or what other name they have for us describing a supposed lack of skill. Sure, we don't play with an anything to win attitude, but that's because we choose not to, and so we shouldn't be looked down upon for doing such.

TAKE THAT TOURNEYTARDS?!?!

Like that? No? Then stop doing the same to us casual types.

 

[BigRick]

B_Smash is just a jerk...

ignore him

However, Ogre_deity_link, you gotta realize that you are a scrub.

Scrub isn't a degrogary word though... and it doesn't mean ''lack of skill''

 

[Salaad]

Usually it's the Item-players that start it by saying.."your taking out all the fun in the game!" if we both just left each other alone...Then there would be no point in arguing the same exact thing in every post..

 

[greenblob]

We've all been casual players. Only competitive Smashers have experience with the tournament scene.

 

[Superstar]

From lookin at Ogre's posts he is NOT a scrub. See he DOES play to win, but he just doesn't try to get better. Its possible to play casually and STILL play to win. Even in games I don't practice I play to win. Most tournament players play to win, but have fun doing so.

Its when you whine, call stuff unfair, and shove your gaming moral values down someone's throat that you're a scrub.

And B_Smash is going a bit over...

 

[maxpower1227]

Much love Eaode. TAKE THAT CASUAL N00BS!

Aren't you the guy who tried to claim that the hardcore competitive players are the main user base and that Brawl should be catered to them specifically? Go away.

 

[Tabris-]

Aren't you the guy who tried to claim that the hardcore competitive players are the main user base and that Brawl should be catered to them specifically? Go away.

Yes, he is.

B_Smash is just a jerk...

B_Smash07 is a 14 year old, he acts accordingly with his age group or a bit lower (10-14 range).

 

[psicicle]

Don't judge people based on age.

Age does not represent intelligence on a forum.

Or anywhere else, until you get into the sub-5 years.

Yeah, now I see why the casuals (I don't really get the term) are annoyed. Because of people like b_smash I guess.

Anyway, on topic, I think L-cancelling is a good thing, simply because without it, the game would involve a lot less tech skill. Sure, L-cancelling is sort of an artificial barrier, but isn't everything that requires some tech to do one? It's just another skill to be mastered, and although it does not contribute a great deal to the intelligence aspect, it serves to make the divide between bad and good larger. But good point, I'm just trying to see the other side, and these arguments are somewhat weak to me. Nevertheless, I'd like to see it in brawl anyway, I'm not sure why though. It may be that I'm just used to it.

I've been playing ganondorf for a very long time (about a year or so) competitively, and although I usually can L-cancel his aerials, moves like the dair have such long stun time that sometimes I miss it.

 

[the grim lizard]

Actually age has a lot to do with everything. That isn't to say that there aren't some 14-year olds who can be as smart as a 21-year-old or 25-year-olds who act like they're 12, but as a rule, age is important, especially on a game forum. Why on a game forum? Because somewhere like here, the youngsters are basing the things they say on their limited knowledge, that is, the most recent games, while older gamers have been around for a while and know the significance of things in the grand scheme of things.

And in my experience here, the majority of ill-informed people who fail to make coherent arguments or even readable posts are 15 or below. That's just how it is. That isn't to say that there aren't exceptions, but it still holds true for the majority.

 

[Yellow Mage]

Another thing: short-hopping.

Intentionally programmed into the game, yes, but a real PITA to master.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

From lookin at Ogre's posts he is NOT a scrub. See he DOES play to win, but he just doesn't try to get better. Its possible to play casually and STILL play to win. Even in games I don't practice I play to win. Most tournament players play to win, but have fun doing so.

Its when you whine, call stuff unfair, and shove your gaming moral values down someone's throat that you're a scrub.

And B_Smash is going a bit over...

Danka Superstar. Although I have to admit I do whine about a few things. One of the reasons (just one) that I haven't gotten better is that I don't really have the dedication to really go deep into Link. (my only main) WDing with him is hard, and he doesn't go far and I really can only Shffl with minimal skill. I can tech pretty ****ed good, but that's about it.

So yeah, I whine about my fav character.

 

[CStrife187]

I bet B_Smash sucks at this game.

(Somewhat) On topic, I think that the main reason age is important in fighting games, is that I remember playing street fighter II with no super moves, and then playing later capcom fighters with super moves and saying "hey, that's so cheap, for people to have such strong moves" only to realize later that they added extra depth to the game and made you think harder about what you were doing.

This is much like what smash is going through right now with the final smash, and because I've seen it happen before I can make statements from experience rather than speculation.

In the "casual vs. tourney" argument, my experience tells me that a lot of the people claiming to be "tournament" players really probably aren't that good (myself included), but are willing to learn "advanced techniques" because they add a layer of depth and skill to the game. A lot of the "casual" players have the potential to be far better than a lot of the younger (newer) "tournament" players, but refuse to master techniques like the wavedash or L-cancel because they think it's an unfair exploit.

That's fine, let people play the way they want, but when it comes to online people are going to have to realize that if they don't learn what's going on in order to compete, they will be left in the dust. People should go ahead and realize that now so nobody cries a couple months after Brawl comes out and they get creamed all the time online.

Also, "casual" players need to realize that the reason this game is even talked about, much less played on the grand competitive level that it is today, after being out six years is that "exploits" like WD and L-cancel make this game deep and interesting to even the most dedicated gamers for a long period of time. If it weren't for these techniques everyone competitive would only be able to play as sheik (maybe marth or peach) because every other characters' metagame is based almost solely on the "advanced techs" and most are based on truly advanced techs that I bet a lot of you haven't even heard of.

A game where one character or move clearly dominates the playing field is not deep, and is not fun for more than a few weeks. A game that is dependent on completely random occurances is hardly any fun at all.

 

[Rx-]

This thread seems to be heating up in an unexpected way.

 

[psicicle]

alright, but I still think it's insulting to a lot of 14-year olds out there to compare them to B_smash

 

[Adi]

Knowledge of previous games is irrelvant with an independant series like Smash Bros. which has so many unique aspects to it that requires the game to be judged on it's own values, not based on what happened in a previous Street Fighter game.

 

[Darkfur]

Knowledge of previous games is irrelvant with an independant series like Smash Bros. which has so many unique aspects to it that requires the game to be judged on it's own values, not based on what happened in a previous Street Fighter game.

You have to apply what was said to this forum. Which means he was talking about Smash Brothers 64 and Smash Bros Melee. Now, if this were a Street fighter forum, then the post would be talking about Street Fighter. Don't take things out of context.

 

[Cisne]

Eaode is absolutly right. Theres no need to keep arguing about this bcoz people (casuals/newbies) 1) get pwned in tourneys or 2) just dont like tournament lvl gameplay.

Play the way you want and just dont join tournaments if u dont like how ssbm is played. Same for brawl , bcoz there will be adv techs and 0% luck matches.

 

[Superstar]

Danka Superstar. Although I have to admit I do whine about a few things. One of the reasons (just one) that I haven't gotten better is that I don't really have the dedication to really go deep into Link. (my only main) WDing with him is hard, and he doesn't go far and I really can only Shffl with minimal skill. I can tech pretty ****ed good, but that's about it.

So yeah, I whine about my fav character.

Hmm, at least you are open to your scrubbish tendencies . I've had similar tendencies in the past, wasn't a scrub but had those tendencies [didn't use the word cheap though, I just whined]. Most people won't admit to whining, and will defend their point of view on how X really IS cheap. And I will say it again, B_Smash takes things too far, no wonder casuals often flame users of advanced techs.

And Cstrife, I agree to your position, in fact, I suck too, and I'm depending on online so I can finally be 4-stocked, if advanced techs are removed my dream will be gone, so I defend my position.

 

[Limey]

I have never played in a tourney, nor played against someone who can WD, so answer me this.

Can someone who can't WD beat someone who can? And i'm not talking about someone who just randomly slides everywhere, i mean someone who knows how to use it properly. Could someone who doesn't use it at all beat someone who uses it and uses it effectively?

 

[Rikka]

Of course, if the non-user is still better than the user at recovery, KO ability, overall playstyle.

Even if you can WD and know how to apply it properly, the rest of your game has to be up to scratch.

 

[SmashChu]

In the "casual vs. tourney" argument, my experience tells me that a lot of the people claiming to be "tournament" players really probably aren't that good (myself included), but are willing to learn "advanced techniques" because they add a layer of depth and skill to the game. A lot of the "casual" players have the potential to be far better than a lot of the younger (newer) "tournament" players, but refuse to master techniques like the wavedash or L-cancel because they think it's an unfair exploit.

If you want to hear my reason on it, it's becuase I really don't care. I don't find it fun to learn atechnique just to compete. While some may say "But what about sheild grabbing and sidestep dodging". Well, unlike the techs, I didn't have to do anything special to learn them. I just relized one day "Hey, I can grab with my sheild. That's a great counter".

I have never played in a tourney, nor played against someone who can WD, so answer me this.

Can someone who can't WD beat someone who can? And i'm not talking about someone who just randomly slides everywhere, i mean someone who knows how to use it properly. Could someone who doesn't use it at all beat someone who uses it and uses it effectively?

To awnser your question, yes, depending on the sercumstance. Anyone can wavedash, but if someone didn't learn how to actually fight then it's useless. But, like I said, in a 1v1, with poeple of equal skill the people who can WD will win. And don't say "But WD is a skill. The person who can WD is better". Not true. While it takes skill to do, it is not a skill that can normally be learn thought playing the game, and needs out side training. It sounds confusing, but you can just play some smash and relize, if I airdodge into the ground, I can slide and if I do it fast enough I can link it into my attacks and can attack faster". It's a skill, but not oner within the realm of the game.

Which reminds me. Quick questoin. If we add all courses(those that aren't tournamnt legal) items, Final Smashes and it being an FFA, how much will WD and L-cancelling help you?

 

[Limey]

Like i thought.

I don't, can't, and haven't really tried WDing.

Therefore, if WD is left in, and i were to play someone online who could use it effectively, yet i got the upper hand in the battle, i would win.

If the technique meant that it gave an instant win to anyone who used it, then i'd agree that it's unfair. Like i said, i've never used it, nor played anyone who does, but just so long as my skill levels are up to scratch, i think i could beat someone who used WD, just so long as their skill levels in the fighting side weren't too higher than mine.

This whole argument works the other way, though, too. Sortof.

If WD is removed because the programmers didn't intend for it to be in, then why would it be such a big deal? I know that it's an advanced technique, and it does help you, but ultimately it's how good a fighter you are, not how good you are at sliding everywhere.

This next part is talking about online play, btw, and kinda deviates from the rest of my post.

I'm more than happy to play someone online with tourney rules. I'm a casual player, and i'd be up for it. It's fun!

But would a tourney player be up for playing in a 4 player battle with items? Because if not, it just seems petty. You know? "You don't want to play by my rules so i don't want to play at all!" This applies for both types of player.

Who actually will refuse to play tourney rules (if you're a casual player), and who will refuse to play casual rules (if you're a tourney player)? If you fall into one of those two, grow up and have a bit of fun instead of being so narrow minded.

EDIT - The top part of this post was written before i saw SmashChu's post. I can't understand how WDing gives that much of an advantage. I know it gives spacing, but i mean, it's a fight, not a race.

 

[marthmaster04]

Eoade, thank you for posting this. *bookmarks* :3

 

[Takeshi245]

If Brawl's online, I would play some FFAs with items. However, I want most of them to be competitive matches. As for advanced techniques in Brawl, I think they should stay as they add depth to the game. People don't have to use them if they don't want to. From the looks of it, Sakurai and his team is doing a good job at that. For example, I like the idea of the footstool jump because it can help in certain situations like team combos and recoveries. Well, this is how I see it. Oh, and nice post, Eaode.

 

[SmashChu]

Like i thought.

I don't, can't, and haven't really tried WDing.

Therefore, if WD is left in, and i were to play someone online who could use it effectively, yet i got the upper hand in the battle, i would win.

If the technique meant that it gave an instant win to anyone who used it, then i'd agree that it's unfair. Like i said, i've never used it, nor played anyone who does, but just so long as my skill levels are up to scratch, i think i could beat someone who used WD, just so long as their skill levels in the fighting side weren't too higher than mine.

Now, it doesn't give you an instant win. But it does give you an edge over the foe.

If WD is removed because the programmers didn't intend for it to be in, then why would it be such a big deal? I know that it's an advanced technique, and it does help you, but ultimately it's how good a fighter you are, not how good you are at sliding everywhere.

Some people don't want it being removed because that changes the game. People fear change. The game will be just as good with or without it, but there are plenty who fear the game will blow if it's gone

I'm more than happy to play someone online with tourney rules. I'm a casual player, and i'd be up for it. It's fun!

But would a tourney player be up for playing in a 4 player battle with items? Because if not, it just seems petty. You know? "You don't want to play by my rules so i don't want to play at all!" This applies for both types of player.

Who actually will refuse to play tourney rules (if you're a casual player), and who will refuse to play casual rules (if you're a tourney player)? If you fall into one of those two, grow up and have a bit of fun instead of being so narrow minded.

There are a lot of competative people out there who would hate 4vs and items, and others who don't want tournamnt courses and items. I can play tournamant rules, but they are no where near as fun as FFAs and items.

Chances are though that online will allow you to vote on the course, have all items on medium, and FFAs. This is practical, and is how Smash has always been ment to be played. Although, friendcode matches will have customization.