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Reality Check: Items, Levels, & Adv Techs

Ogre_Deity_Link

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hehe my post was made after his, so if you stopped reading after you read my post, than you surely read his aswell :laugh:

The first post in this thread is pretty good though. It pretty much sums up what Ive been trying to say for 3 months.

I can't even try anymore to convince people where I and the rest of the competitive scene are coming from due to it just gets me either spammed or attacked as some big evil tournament player who apparantly is taking planes across the country forcing you to play smashbrothers in a setting that is to his liking.

Im just glad there are others on these boards fighting the good fight though. Keep it up yo.
BAD! BAD TOURNEY PLAYER! EVILLL!!!!

*holds up a cross*
 

Limey

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I agree that it's an intelligent thread, but i don't really see the reasoning for the sticky.

I mean, any normal person should know that when Brawl comes out you're allowed to play it as you like. The casuals and tourney players who refuse to accept this should just be left to stew, while the casual and tourney players who do can happily get on with looknig forward to the game.
 

THK

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Great first thread. Too bad many people aren't as reasonable.

I personally don't care. I've played with both items on and on with various frequencies and items, blah blah blah yadda yadda and I've learned to adapt to almost every situation possible (with the exception of tolerating Great Bay, ugh).

Don't get me wrong, it's a great first post and a good thing to ref when people start sprayfarting over the tournament scene and tournament players. At the same time, what about tournament lovers that arrogantly and relentlessly sprayfart on those that don't play like them?

Which is perfect for an online game. Me and grim already explained, WD =/= glitching. I WD, and heck, I stink. And the main reason I stink is that I don't get to play in tournaments [wish I could].
I have a friend that doesn't go to tournies and he's pretty darn good, but at the same time, him and a few others play on a high level of play, so I guess he has experience kind of.
 

Superstar

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Well, only person I ever get to fight is my brother, who uses minimal advanced techs [I believe only L-Cancel and the rare shffl/wavedash, which he almost never uses]. Only fighting one person who almost never wants to play does not help you get better, no matter how many techs you know.

And the Stick is for the people who know nothing of competitive play. There are many people who assume what tournament play is like without actually reading about it.
 

GaryCXJk

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What I do think is that real pros really wouldn't need to care about WDing, since there might be other ways to do things in Brawl.
 

Winston

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What I do think is that real pros really wouldn't need to care about WDing, since there might be other ways to do things in Brawl.
That is true; Isai played competitively in SSBM, but now he doesn't like it and he likes SSB better, where there isn't a wavedash, but the physics are quite different so there are plenty of ways to do things anyway.


It's just that seriously, it's HELLA fun to wavedash across the stage (not for everyone, I realise, but for most people who have actually spent the time to perfect the technique, it's a lot of fun). I main luigi ^__^ and luigi really would be no fun without it.



and , IN GENERAL,

I think the few debates/issues we have left in this thread are caused by everyone tending to group people's statements together. For example, foggy was annoyed at the response he thought he was getting from the so-called "tourney player" group. This is because, though he got a lot of responses from "tourney/competitive" players, some of them said things like "casual = laid-back" and others said "casual = not playing in tournaments, where things are at stake".

Stop grouping everybody's responses in stereotypes. And please don't insult anyone, it never helps things.

FOR THE RECORD, foggy, I think most people share the view that:

1). Advanced techs help you win, if you learn to use them correctly.
2). A casual player is someone who does NOT play to win.
3). Therefore if you refuse to use the techs, you refuse to play to win, and you're a casual player.

"Casual" in this context doesn't really talk about how much you like the game, just your attitude.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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I play to have fun; not to win.

Winning doesn't really matter to me, never did in tourneys and it sitll doesn't. But I do respect the competative player opinions.
 

BigRick

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But if you don't play to win, you don't truly play the game.

You can see that **** in the how to play video... the goal of Smash Bros. is to kick your opponent's ***.

You guys will have the most fun when the 2 of you guys play to win:

Player 1 - ''I will kill you!!!''
Player 2 - ''No you won't, mother****er!''

^^THIS LEADS TO EPIC MOMENTZZ!!!
 

THK

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Well, only person I ever get to fight is my brother, who uses minimal advanced techs [I believe only L-Cancel and the rare shffl/wavedash, which he almost never uses]. Only fighting one person who almost never wants to play does not help you get better, no matter how many techs you know.

And the Stick is for the people who know nothing of competitive play. There are many people who assume what tournament play is like without actually reading about it.
Ah you didn't really mention it was someone who didn't really care too much about the game. I'd say I'm pretty **** lucky to have a lot of friends into high level play. Though with some careful thinking I can pretty much beat most of them.

One of my friends is insanely agressive, pure offense is his style, it can be rather overwhelming, and a simple thing like walking up to you and smashing can be a bit of a throw off. And his Shiek just have a nice habit of staying in your shadow.

Another one thinks like me, but I'm a bit more passive and punishing than he is. We share similar mindsets in our tactics which result in us doing the exact same movements (which ends up pretty hilarious), though when his momentum is broken he's a mess, which is pretty tough cause his Falcon is insane.

The next one is pretty good at well, knows his techs and can adapt pretty well but cannot handle pressure at all.

The last is pretty **** annoying to the point it might just kill your will to play, but that's part of his mindgame.
 

thesage

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I think the main problem is that people are afraid that scrubs will be dissapointed with online mode since they're getting owned by people who have "unfair" advantages cause they know more about the game. I (used to before he got Rainbow 6 Vegas) play my friend in Halo all the time. He was way better than me cause he knew all the spawn points, memorized the maps, and knew all the Halo glitches. I don't own an Xbox so I kinda sucked at the game and hardly knew anything. I still had fun though. If you get owned by somebody using "advanced" techs (which aren't advanced because they really don't take that much time to learn) while you are playing online you have 3 options:

1. Complain and whine about it cause it's unfair that the other player knew more about the game and practiced more than you. Even though you refuse to learn the techs that helped the other player beat you you're pissed. I should have an equal chance against a player who has played way more than I have/ or spent much more time exploring the hidden attributes of this game.

2. Have fun, you didn't care about winning in the first place so why don't you play another match. You knew that there are other people better than you, and you just played one of them. You didn't care about winning or losing cause you're just playing like this for fun.

3. Use the browser in your Wii (which costs 5 dollars if you didn't buy it by june 30th or something) to look up WTF the guy was doing. I mean all you have to do is google Super Smash Bros. Brawl techniques or something like that it's not that hard (or you could just go here). Learn it, and try to put up a better fight next time.

And please don't say that it's hard to see the Advanced techniques. The only one that's hard to notice is l-cancelling if you haven't played the game long enough to know the lag of moves. I've played really scrubby players (as in people who DON'T own the game) and they noticed WD'ing. Those that played the game for a longer period of time actually noticed l-cancelling.

Oh, and to counter the arguement that people are too busy getting laid to practice smash: It takes at most an afternoon to learn how to Wavedash (as in actually being able to do it). A little longer for l-cancelling (which you should learn first btw). And a month of smashing once or twice a week with your friend to implement adv. techs in your playstyle. Who said you necessarily have to practice alone, or still play by tourney standards. I learned adv. smash by playing three for alls with my friends and we would practice adv. techs like WD'ing, l-cancelling, advanced defensive moves, and the advanced recovery/ edgeguarding moves. We all had a lot of fun. If we got bored we would just start playing normally. There's a reason why those friends are still playing smash with me while my other friends who never wanted to learn adv. techs aren't playing anymore (FYI they don't mind me using adv. techs against them, they just aren't interested in the game cause they've already been doing the same thing for 6 years). Just do w/e you want to do. Also: the time it took you to read this paragraph wasted the time you could've spent getting laid...

What makes smash a great game is that it appeals to many different people and is customizable. I honestley have no problem with people who follow choices 2 and 3. It's the people who are following path 1 that's making me angry. Actually, I honestly want to see the same people who flame adv. techs to still be posting here this time next year. I know I will be, cause I'll be checking up on tournaments and stuff.

This post was made not to offend anyone intelligent. I'm not trying to push my playstyle on non-tourney goers. I also not trying to offend "pro" players who think I'm dumbing down advanced techs. They're really easy to use (you have to be smart enough to know when to use it *imagine Luigi WD'ing into Marth's Foward smash*).

This post WAS meant to insult all people who think that WD = gay advantage (cuz Luigi and Mewtwo are top tier), or pro players don't have gfs (most pro players that play smash actually do have gfs) cuz that's the same as all people who invest their time in hobbies or play sports and the girls that play smash don't exist.

Oh, if somebody finds the first post ever on smashboards that says that WD = gay or something or that non-competitive players are ******* or something (I'm really bad at making insults) you get a cookie. Whichever one comes first.

I honestly don't care how you play (unless you play Ness and are really good). You shouldn't care about how I play. This post was made to attempt to stop all the hatin'. Thanks. Also, I want somebody to please show me a post made by somebody that actually has more than five posts in the tournaments section flaming casual players.

*self nominated to be posted with the first post*
 

Team Giza

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All these rules and stuff is just how the tournament game involved. Tournament scene didn't just randomly start with 4 stock, no items, timed matches with certain stages banned. They didn't even all start out 1 vs 1 either, the tournament scene slowly evolved because of want the general tourney-goers wanted. But remember that there used to be tournaments when Hyrule was allowed and people would just spam lazers and run around and go lulz. Then there was the whole stalling on other maps (like Peach's castle). I have lost stuff I thought made the game more fun due to this method. I personally loved wobbling in the game, I thought it made the game more fun and intense, but it was labeled as broken and is now banned from several tournaments. But thats not gonna stop me from playing the way I want to play when I am not at those player's tournaments. I will follow there rules if I go, its still fun even though its not my exact preferred way of playing. I am hoping to get my way of playing up and running around me by setting up my own tournaments, with cheaper entries and a smaller pot than the others (cause I don't think Smash needs that much money on the line personally). Heck I might even do some item tournaments now and then just for special kicks.

Thing is I know a lot of the elitist casual players here are gonna want to brand me as a tourneytard elitist. But they are gonna be sadly mistaken. I probably play in more ways than the majority of casual gamers here, and also could probably even show them up with item knowledge of extended combos using items. I know the set ups, I know the many uses, I know how to abuse each item and could probably take out many of them at their own game. But it just so happens that the majority of the time I am in the mood for the no item tournament rules, I just like the idea of having no huge random thing on screen so we can truely test a players skill and strive to improve our game. But just cause I think that it doesn't mean I don't know the rest of the game.

Now on the topic of wavedashing. Seriously... it isn't too hard to learn guys. I know many of you are gonna say "Well maybe it was easy for you!" well... it wasn't easy for me. I was probably one of the slowest people in my ground when it came to learning wavedashing. It took me quite some time just going it in training mode, and then getting used to it with the majority of the characters I played, and then just getting used to timing it in the game. It took awhile, it was a learning curve, but it wasn't so hard to learn that you should complain about people using it and giving them an unfair advantage. Yes, it gives someone who knows how to use it an advantage. But they earned it, they needed to learn and study when to use the tactic and how to use it in all situations where it is useful. It adds depth to the game and creates more things to learn and more ways to mess with your opponents head. Now I can understand that some people just don't want to use it cause they want to play the game as it was meant and thats cool and all, but if you are playing against me I am gonna use anything that is in the game unless you specifically ask me not to before hand.

Here is something interesting I am gonna throw out at casual elitists, though it probably has been said before. You say that Melee developers had no intention for the game to be played competitively and have higher leveled techniques that would help out people who put a lot of time into the game. But L-canceling exists... it was purposely put into the game, and there is no escape from that. It may not be in the instruction book or any official tutorials but many other things in the game aren't either including unlockable characters, grapple and hook shot for recovery, and maybe even short hopping and light shielding (nor power shielding for that matter). L-canceling was put in by the developers and guess what, there is only one purpose for it. L-canceling is designed simply to separate the casual players from players who want to play the game more seriously. That is what the developers put it there for, they liked how people took SSB64 to the next level with Z-canceling and decided to keep it in to make sure those player would still have their more competitive and serious way of playing the game. There is no escaping it, the developers promoted serious, and competitive play of the game by creating L-canceling in Melee.

I know many casual players have said that when brawl comes out that many of us tourney players are probably gonna have to learn how to use items and play casually a little bit more because of online. I accept this as a challenge. You will soon see that it is not just "glitches" and "exploits" that allow these tournament players to beat you over and over, its there mindset upon entering and viewing how they want to play the game. I don't know for sure how different Brawl will be from Melee, but I hope it is a breathe of fresh air. Of coarse, tournaments are gonna have to be rebalanced again. I hope that all tournaments will not start out with some levels already banned and items off. Everything will evolve on its own again as there are gonna be tons of new players to brawl who are gonna want to play in many different kinds of tournaments. So casual people will get there time in those tournaments to have fun and play in big group settings. But remember just cause its a casual rule tournament does not mean I will not come to teach you people a thing or two about how much a mindset on coming into playing the game can help.
 

Ogre_Deity_Link

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You guys all make good points. My only thing is that the tourney players would play a LITTLE casually at first, only until they figure out all of the new advanced techs (assuming they have them and/or ditched the old ones.) But that's not to say they'd suck, they'd just probably be a little easier to play with people like me. (I can Tech and Shield-grab. That's the extent of my adv. techniques) but my attitude is always sharp. Just because I haven't mastered WDing, doesn't mean my knowledge of some characters is any less *coughLinkcough*
 

thesage

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You guys all make good points. My only thing is that the tourney players would play a LITTLE casually at first, only until they figure out all of the new advanced techs (assuming they have them and/or ditched the old ones.)
I'm not going to change my playstyle just to make somebody feel better about themselves. Unless I'm training somebody, I never change my playstyle (I'd do it to emphasize certain aspects of the game instead of just talking about it). New techniques aren't going to be discovered unless the game is pushed to its max. WD'ing was discovered by a player trying to pick up an item faster by airdodging into the ground. Technically you can say that Wavelanding was discovered before WD. What do you want me to do if I encounter you online in a fight. Play half-***** and still beat you, or play seriously (and still beat you). I personally think if I'd play seriously it would be better for you cause you'd learn more.

Just because I haven't mastered WDing, doesn't mean my knowledge of some characters is any less *coughLinkcough*
Are you saying that because you don't know something that effects every character you still know about as much as the game as I do? Which chars can djc (not an adv tech btw)? Why is Sheik gay? What are bombpies? Which projectiles are the highest priority projectiles in the game? How many frames of lag does Link's dair have (non l-cancelled). Which move in the game is most easily foot cancelled? How do you taunt cancel with young link? (Please don't look this stuff up and then say you know all this stuff) Who has the advantage in the Link vs. Jigglypuff matchup and why?

I don't think people understand that you have to be able to do/know everything perfectly in order to be good at this game. Aniki is a Samus player in Japan. He is famous for being so sucessful with Samus without using WD. Does he know how to WD? Of course. Why doesn't he WD? For mindgames. So many people are used to playing people with WD that somebody who doesn't is really unusual. FYI he still l-cancels though.

P.S. I'm not trying to flame Ogre Diety Link, just pointing out the flaws in his arguement that I see.

Edit: This is directed towards Team Giza:

I agree with your first three paragraphs. Your fourth paragraph is a little iffy because I can see some stages that can be banned automatically from competitive play. Could you honestly see a tournament with IC's stage? I love that stage cause I know how when to jump and stuff (and Ness is really good on that stage). I was never fond of yoshi's island either (even when I was a noob).
 

PimpUigi

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A ton of those stages used to be available for tournament play.

And Rainbow Cruise wasn't a neutral stage back then either.

Peach's Castle, and Yoshi's Island for instance, used to be counter pick stages.

I have my own theories as to why they're banned, but they don't have much to do with actual balance scenarios or anything.
 

thesage

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Rainbow cruise isn't neutral stage. Right now it's a counterpick.

I posted about YI because I really hate that stage. I hate it with every living fiber of my being. I think it's banned because fox Waveshines/Drillshines everyone really easily of the stage. Peach's Castle is banned becaue of camping (how often does that bullet bill come and How easily is it avoided?)

Look up footcancel in the everything defined thread in MD.
 

Dynamism

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I'll be semi-"dead" for a while after Fe
I've been WD for about 4 months now but I haven't fought anyone better than me, ever. So WD is usefull but for the most part, it isn't that significant in terms of winning a battle. I'm sure if I fought in a tournement I'd do well and would finally get to fight someone else who could wavedash. I don't know what it's like fighting an ecessive WDer so I don't know how I would do.

The one thing I can't wait for (online will help) is to fight someone with everything I have, and lose.

That would be the best EVER!!! I'm guessing you're pretty good thesage, so I'm hoping to run into you with Brawl WiFI
 

thesage

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When you go to tournaments the people who you play in the first round WD. Almost everyone in the tourney scene knows how to WD. It's really not that hard...
 

cubaisdeath

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lol, my sister can wavedash and she plays like once a month, and even then the only reason I taught her how was because she played IC's. wavedashing isn't that hard. I guess if you think wavedashing is cheap and stupid, you should probably stop trying to wall tech too
 

Dynamism

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I'll be semi-"dead" for a while after Fe
lol, my sister can wavedash and she plays like once a month, and even then the only reason I taught her how was because she played IC's. wavedashing isn't that hard. I guess if you think wavedashing is cheap and stupid, you should probably stop trying to wall tech too
Yeah really LOL
L-cancel and short hopping too
Actually **** sheilding and dodging all together. A + B + Stick!
 

Adi

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Grapple recovery wasn't in the instruction booklet. I'm too ignorant to figure out things for myself so I think we should remove that too ^^.
 

Team Giza

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Edit: This is directed towards Team Giza:

I agree with your first three paragraphs. Your fourth paragraph is a little iffy because I can see some stages that can be banned automatically from competitive play. Could you honestly see a tournament with IC's stage? I love that stage cause I know how when to jump and stuff (and Ness is really good on that stage). I was never fond of yoshi's island either (even when I was a noob).
Well I am not saying that is was meant to be the same as the competitive scene we have now, or taken as seriously. But it was meant to have a learning curve to get into a higher level of play. So the developers did pay attention to the hardcore players that would put the effort in to play better than everyone else in things like tournaments. But don't get me completely wrong and think I meant that they meant the game to be played the way it is played in tournaments now... I don't think they meant it to get this serious.
 

Razgriz

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This is a good thread that deserves front page. I just noticed this thread and linked my casual item-happy friend to it, and he responded with "well that's because everybody on smashboards likes to take the fun out of the game" and so i pointed him to point 4. It was good for a chuckle, so... bump.
 

Mic_128

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Point #1: ITEMS

Okay, this particular subject is the fuel for many casual players who are looking forward to Brawl. Many of them are angry that tournaments never use items. It seems as if we, the competitive players, are missing out or wrongly excluding items from our play.

Many casual players argue that items are the "proper" way to play, or that we don't play the game the way it was intended. This is false.

First of all, the reasons items are turned off in tournaments is because they add luck to the game.

WRONG!
The ONLY reason Items are turned off is due to capsules, crates and Barrels appearing in front of people and exploding. It's a problem with Bob-ombs too, but they can be turned off where the crates can NOT.

Other than that, all fairly accurate.
 

BigRick

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Sigged Mic's post for truth.

Actually the random spawn location factor is not a big deal... If a crate/barrel/capsule spawns in a random spot, a character will have to break it open before being able to use it. Therefore, it gives time to the other players to catch up with the one that is going after the items.

In a 1v1 matchup, you usually need to have the advantage in order to go after an item. Then you can choose give up a little bit of this advantage in order to go fetch an item (for example, instead of techchasing an opponent, you go grab a pokéball)

EDIT: I really don't see why people hate items... this video shows 2 good WC players, Hugs and DSF in a item match. And you can see here how clever use of items can add to this game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIdE7eg9cWU

Also this match is played on a level that gives a huge advantage to Sheik, since he can camp the main platform and needle spam. However, the apparition of items makes the match more dynamic.

Alot of stages were banned in singles play because of camping issues, but you can directly relate this to the lack of items... if there's items (that spawn randomly around the level), then you have weapons that can deal with camping (space control items like pokéballs or the invicibility star) and the camper might want to stop camping in order to get a particular item or to prevent his opponent from getting it.
 

slikvik

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**** MD/VA. I have no region. no really...
WRONG!
The ONLY reason Items are turned off is due to capsules, crates and Barrels appearing in front of people and exploding. It's a problem with Bob-ombs too, but they can be turned off where the crates can NOT.

Other than that, all fairly accurate.
this should be posted everywhere, so random noobs stop complaining about why tournament have no items
 

Eaode

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Sigged Mic's post for truth.

Actually the random spawn location factor is not a big deal... If a crate/barrel/capsule spawns in a random spot, a character will have to break it open before being able to use it. Therefore, it gives time to the other players to catch up with the one that is going after the items.

In a 1v1 matchup, you usually need to have the advantage in order to go after an item. Then you can choose give up a little bit of this advantage in order to go fetch an item (for example, instead of techchasing an opponent, you go grab a pokéball)

EDIT: I really don't see why people hate items... this video shows 2 good WC players, Hugs and DSF in a item match. And you can see here how clever use of items can add to this game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIdE7eg9cWU

Also this match is played on a level that gives a huge advantage to Sheik, since he can camp the main platform and needle spam. However, the apparition of items makes the match more dynamic.

Alot of stages were banned in singles play because of camping issues, but you can directly relate this to the lack of items... if there's items (that spawn randomly around the level), then you have weapons that can deal with camping (space control items like pokéballs or the invicibility star) and the camper might want to stop camping in order to get a particular item or to prevent his opponent from getting it.
Well, yeah, but as MookieRah enlightened to me, those items are banned. That match had freakin pokeballs and Bob-ombs too. o.o. None of the legal Items would really help you out in that situation, Except Warpstar (it is legal right??)
 

BigRick

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Well, yeah, but as MookieRah enlightened to me, those items are banned. That match had freakin pokeballs and Bob-ombs too. o.o. None of the legal Items would really help you out in that situation, Except Warpstar (it is legal right??)
Well, it depends of the tournament. The link I posted showed a tournament match.

And I really don't know why you should ban pokéballs, it's like one of the most crucial items out there.
 

Banks

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i tink wavedashing is for cheetz

but rlly, nice list. I just doubt it will change opinions of people who think items should be used in tournaments and wavedashing is cheap etc. Brawl Discussion is bound to bring those type of people, because it is the only section that has absolutely nothing to do with tournaments.
 

BigRick

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if you turn on any of the items, capsules and crates will appear, with the chance of exploding
I know that already.

My point was that items might be usable in Brawl, because Sakurai might take out those random exploding crates and capsules.

Even if they spawn in random locations, if they remain in their crates and capsules then you have no reason to ban them.

Saying stuff like ''omg Franklin Badge is cheap, ruins Falco's approach!'' is no better than saying ''omg wavedashing is fo cheetz''... you know whadda mean?

EDIT: My other point was that banning only leads to more banning. It is definitely good if it's for a good reason (breaking the game) but if it doesn't then it will only hurt the game.
 

IllidR

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,373
Location
"Pikmen" Forever!
While i know playing with items is only off because of the crates, i still prefer to play with them off even if they didn't explode. I'd rather have a plain ol' fight anyday rather than have the items on.
 
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