Reality Check: Items, Levels, & Adv Techs

[Superstar]

I remember that article for Sirlin, playing to win at all times is counter-productive, as you won't take any risks to learn stuff that would be useful for future matches. If you are a tournament player, that's the best use for fighting casuals/lower level, testing techniques without thinking of winning. If you test something in a tournament match you WILL get owned. Of course you could still fight casual players just to have fun, but I mean competitive wise.

Playing to win and playing to learn are different things, but that's another matter.

and I've already read the page before, but I decided to take another look just in case.

And CStrife, sweet. You're $15 richer.

 

[-Foggy-]

Lets see here. I'm the type of player who doesn't use any advanced techniques, but plays with tournament rules. For example, I frequently play Falco on FD with items off and 3-5 stock, but I don't wavedash. What would you call me? A "casual" player? This is bull****.

I (and probably many other people too) am sick and tired of being labeled a "casual" player. If I'm not mistaken, a "casual" player would be someone who either just recently bought the game or rarely ever plays it, yet a whole lot of ignorant people around here think that someone is "casual" when they just don't learn advanced techniques. That's bullcrap. I bought this game at launch, and that means I'm just as "casual" as any player around here who uses advanced techs. SO STOP CALLING ME CASUAL. Just because I didn't waste my time learning how to wavedash when I could have just as much fun playing the game without it DOES NOT MEAN I AM CASUAL OR A "NEWB" GODDAMMIT. People need to learn this, and learn it fast because people are really starting to piss me off with this.

I'm not saying that learning advanced techniques is wrong or anything like that, in fact I commemorate the people who learn them and make money because of it, but just because I OR ANYONE ELSE DO NOT DO THAT does not mean that we are the "sT00piD n00Bs" they say we are. We just play the game in a different style, so just leave us alone already.

(NOTE: I know this post may seem random, but seeing the first post made me feel like this was the right topic to express my ideas in)

 

[Superstar]

... No one called you a stupid noob unless you met an idiot.

Hard to categorize, you are less casual than most casual players, but you are still kinda casual. But yet, I would be partially casual by that definition, due to lack of people to play I suck, even though I know and use many of the advanced techs [dang you POWERSHIELD, and horrible reflex speed]. Hard to categorize people, tournament players categorize non-competitives as casual or scrubs, and casuals categorize tournament players as competitive or elititsts. Where does the line start and end?

Of course, if you play by tournament rules you should be competitive by nature, why don't you learn any techs, is it cause you dislike them, or because you don't go to tournaments and there would be no point [reason my brother doesn't learn them], or because you are lazy [but then you would be casual...]?

Just know that we would be 20 stocked by any self-respecting tournament player.

 

[greenblob]

Plenty of casual players bought the game at launch. Plenty of casuals are diehard fans. The fact that you think advanced techniques are a waste of time pretty much indicates that you're a casual player.

Also, not learning advanced techniques isn't really a "different style." It's like playing ping pong without spin.

 

[CStrife187]

how about, if you've never played for money, you're casual?

don't get all upset over stupid people on the internet and calm down.

 

[M.K]

Advanced Techniques aren't a waste of time at all, in fact, they might be the best way to win sometimes, but you can choose not to use them in place of other things. I just don't see how someone who doesn't use advanced techniques to exploit the game is auto-labeled as a "casual" player. I by no means am "casual" because I've logged several hundred hours into the game, perfected my main character (Samus), and beaten almost every single one of my friends head on.

There needs to be a better term other than "casual" and "tourny" players. I mean, it's ticking alot of people off. What about, "straightforward" and "technique" players? That...was the best I could come up with. I mean, I don't see why using advanced techniques means you are experts. A 6-year old kid could've gotten the game yesterday and learned how to wave-dash, but that's it, no attacking or anything. Does that make him a "hardcore" player? Not at all. I really have no negative opinion on advanced techiniques (granted I don't know how any are performed other than wavedashing), but I want to stick up for the people who are getting looked down upon by supposed "superior" players. They are not superior, it's just a different strategy.

Different Strategies =/= Superior players/Inferior players

 

[Superstar]

If you don't use ANY advanced techniques at all you cannot win against a self-respecting tournament player under normal circumstances. Wavedash is one thing, but if you don't L-Cancel you WILL die. You will die if you don't Wavedash as well, cause only Aniki is capable of being good without it.

So I'm a competitive casual player eh, makes sense. Not tournament, but competitive [if only I had a few monies and the internet is not regarded as a widespread evil place by parents everywhere].

 

[CStrife187]

@Meta-Kirby

see above

also, if you've perfected samus, I'd love to see you, HugS, and Wes battle it out for best samus. I wonder who would lose?

 

[NES n00b]

How about this. . . . . . if you do not take the time to learn advance techs, then you are casual. I played with scrubs trying to learn advance techs back in the day before I could go to tournies. Good times. . . . . . . .just a couple months ago. =(

Edit: advance techs are the best way to win ALL the time. XD

 

[psicicle]

If you don't use ANY advanced techniques at all you cannot win against a self-respecting tournament player under normal circumstances. Wavedash is one thing, but if you don't L-Cancel you WILL die. You will die if you don't Wavedash as well, cause only Aniki is capable of being good without it.

So I'm a competitive casual player eh, makes sense. Not tournament, but competitive [if only I had a few monies and the internet is not regarded as a widespread evil place by parents everywhere].

Don't forget the one-handed alphazealot as well as all the people who play chars with crap WDes.

I by no means am "casual" because I've logged several hundred hours into the game, perfected my main character (Samus), and beaten almost every single one of my friends head on.

If you don't wavedash with samus, then it is far from perfect to be honest. There's a plethora of samus advanced techs like missile cancelling that really help.

I'd guess you are doing the roll spam to smash strategy? Because that was the only way that me and my friends would play before I heard of advanced techs.

If you are, well if it's enough to beat your friends then so be it I guess. But it won't stand up to, say a tourney if you ever attend one.

 

[Superstar]

Don't forget the one-handed alphazealot as well as all the people who play chars with crap WDes.

True, true, I phrased it wrong, that was a last minute addition. I meant to say.

"Heck, you'll still die if you can't utilize and use Wavedash as well, as only Aniki can do so great without it."

However, remember that was in response to a Samus, who usually must Wavedash, unless its Aniki's. I meant to say can't, not don't.

And I like Nes Noob's definition the most.

 

[M.K]

@NES n00b:
I never said I don't use ANY advanced techniques, I use wavedash and L-Cancel, but stop thinking they are the best way to win! They aren't the only thing you can use to win! I would love to see a regular player play on the same level as an advanced player, oh wait, they do!

@Superstar:

Yeah, those two are important enough, but the whole "waveshinedoublepunch-cancelwaveshinedash" is pretty lame, if you've found a way to completely and utterly destroy the real physics of the game, don't make an *** out of yourself when you play people. BTW, that wasn't aimed towards you.

@CStrife:

Sure, I wonder who would lose? Anyone's guess, I'd say. And yes, I have perfected Samus, thank you for acknowledging it, as I did work pretty hard indeed. So, the best Samus? Certainly not anyone I know in person. Hopeful for online!

@psicicle:

Yeah, I wavedash with Samus, so I guess, I'm not that far from perfect after all. Missle cancelling is also a prime factor. Don't do roll spam either, because it's cheap, hence the name "roll SPAM". I'm sure I wouldn't do to well at a tournament, but that doesn't make me an inferior player, it just makes me a less-skilled player. There IS a difference.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

What about inferior-skilled players?

 

[NES n00b]

@NES n00b:
I never said I don't use ANY advanced techniques, I use wavedash and L-Cancel, but stop thinking they are the best way to win! They aren't the only thing you can use to win! I would love to see a regular player play on the same level as an advanced player, oh wait, they do!

They do? I thought that was why people who are more advanced then "regular" players are called "advanced players." 0_o

If you want to win (against as much people as possible), you need to do your best all the time. And sense using advance tatics is more useful than not using them, then it increases your chances of winning (and upping your game no). I never implied you never use them, but if you don't use them. You will most likely lose, and if you win against someone using advance techs without advance techs of your own either a. They are just learning techs and so they are not consistent with them. b. You really outsmarted them to such a degree, that the handicap of not using advance techs do not stop you from winning. c. They have poor reaction time/hand eye coordination. . . . . . . . .but still learned advance techs somehow. >_>

Edit: lol at 56k comment. What is with the Samus avatar?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

True, true, I phrased it wrong, that was a last minute addition. I meant to say.

"Heck, you'll still die if you can't utilize and use Wavedash as well, as only Aniki can do so great without it."

However, remember that was in response to a Samus, who usually must Wavedash, unless its Aniki's. I meant to say can't, not don't.

And I like Nes Noob's definition the most.

I find this really odd. On one hand, people claim that WDing isn't all superpowerful and doesn't automatically win you matches, WHICH I agree with and can see quite clearly. But then again, why do people then turn around and say things like, "...you'll still die if you can't utilize and use Wavedash as well." So is it, or is it not key to winning games especially against Dedicated players?

Dedicated=Tourny

Laid-Back=Casual

Are these decent names for players? Not that I care if I'm labeled casual, because I know that that's the way I play. I play for fun and never profit, therefore I'm not too concerned about spending 8-10 hours a day on SSBM, attempting to utlize every tech and skill in the game. (and the 8-10 is an exaggeration...maybe... )

@56K: Please don't go there. Last thing we need is another Dedicated/Laid-Back flame war.

 

[M.K]

Yeah, they are called "advanced" players, but I guess anyone sensible enough to use anything other than jump, attack, and shield is an "advanced player".

The main point I'm trying to get across to anyone, is that, you can use advanced techiniques to demolish the other player, but don't look down upon people who don't manipulate them to a certain extent. They aren't any worse, they aren't any better (and vice versa for you). That's all, it's just a different strategy, that's it.

 

[NES n00b]

I wish I could play 8-10 hours a day. >_> Not really. . . . . . . but twice a week would be nice. . . . . . . .

The reason that wavedash is not that important is because you can do almost everything it does by something else. The reason you will still lose if you don't use it. . . . . . . . .if two people of almost equal skill play, the person that does not wavedash will almost certainly lose unless he uses stuff that makes up for it (like uses pivoting and dash dancing with a character that doesn't need it etc). Why limit yourself in anyway?

Edit: They are not inferior as people, definitely Meta-Kirby. They will lose to people who do use advance techs pretty much guarenteed. No offense intended.

Edit: Didn't know roll spam was "cheap" especially with samus. >_> I rested Samuses with Jiggly when they roll spammed lol

Back in the day, people called me "cheap" for roll spamming (he claimed he was a tourney player >_>).

 

[Superstar]

@NES n00b:
I never said I don't use ANY advanced techniques, I use wavedash and L-Cancel, but stop thinking they are the best way to win! They aren't the only thing you can use to win! I would love to see a regular player play on the same level as an advanced player, oh wait, they do!

Then the advanced player sucks.

@Superstar:

Yeah, those two are important enough, but the whole "waveshinedoublepunch-cancelwaveshinedash" is pretty lame, if you've found a way to completely and utterly destroy the real physics of the game, don't make an *** out of yourself when you play people. BTW, that wasn't aimed towards you.

If it helps you win, then go for it

@CStrife:

Sure, I wonder who would lose? Anyone's guess, I'd say. And yes, I have perfected Samus, thank you for acknowledging it, as I did work pretty hard indeed. So, the best Samus? Certainly not anyone I know in person. Hopeful for online!

Hugs and Wes are the best Samus players in the world, hoping to beat them is vain.

Also, Do you even know what double missle, Missle Cancel, Triple missle, and how to extend your recovery, if you answer them then you know your Samus, at least a little.

@psicicle:

Yeah, I wavedash with Samus, so I guess, I'm not that far from perfect after all. Missle cancelling is also a prime factor. Don't do roll spam either, because it's cheap, hence the name "roll SPAM". I'm sure I wouldn't do to well at a tournament, but that doesn't make me an inferior player, it just makes me a less-skilled player. There IS a difference.

Samus's roll is the worst in the game.

I find this really odd. On one hand, people claim that WDing isn't all superpowerful and doesn't automatically win you matches, WHICH I agree with and can see quite clearly. But then again, why do people then turn around and say things like, "...you'll still die if you can't utilize and use Wavedash as well." So is it, or is it not key to winning games especially against Dedicated players?

Wavedash is not superpowerful, but yet if you are unable to use it correctly you are no good. I'm pretty sure Aniki is capable of using the wavedash correctly, he just doesn't want to. Its just that many players flame Wavedash when L-Cancel and stuff are greater, so that's the weird thing. Wavedashing is strong, but NOT as powerful as many people make it out to be.

Wavedashing is not as tough as some other techs, yet it is STILL a tech.

 

[M.K]

Double Missle: You fire a missle on the ground, and VERY shortly after, you fire a missle in the air. Gets most players in a bind.

Triple Missle: Essentially the same, except with three missles and increased advanced techniques

Missle Cancel: Sorry, don't know this one all too well.

Extending your recovery: Of course, extendnig your Grapple Beam is essential, or do you mean Bomb-Jumping,? b/c that's another way to extend your recovery.

I mean, I do know Samus well.

 

[Superstar]

Double Missle: You fire a missle on the ground, and VERY shortly after, you fire a missle in the air. Gets most players in a bind.

Triple Missle: Essentially the same, except with three missles and increased advanced techniques

Missle Cancel: Sorry, don't know this one all too well.

Extending your recovery: Of course, extendnig your Grapple Beam is essential, or do you mean Bomb-Jumping,? b/c that's another way to extend your recovery.

I mean, I do know Samus well.

Double Missle is when you jump, fire a missle in the air, and then after the first missle is fired, you fire another before you hit the ground. Very difficult techs, but a must learn.

Triple Missle, you double jump after the first missle, so you can fire another one in the same air time.

Missle cancel is when you fire a missle before landing, so all your lag is eliminated. Its the most vital one, how can you not know that.

And her roll is horrible, why do you think its cheap?

 

[M.K]

It's horrible, but when my friend's use it, they just roll roll roll roll roll, and it get's annoying. I guess "cheap" wasn't the right word, more like "annoying when playing with my friends".

Missle Cancel, well, I've actually never used that one, I guess I'll start using it now!

 

[CStrife187]

I can't wait for online.

also, the strategy that loses is inferior. If it wasn't, then why even have the word "inferior" in the english language if you're going to ignore its meaning?

 

[M.K]

@CStrife:

Yeah, I guess. We live *remotely* in the same area, I live in Raleigh! Some people just assume that it is inferior w/o even playing to see if they win or not, and that sort of irks me.

 

[CStrife187]

dude, I'm gonna be in raleigh from wednesday until august 13th. we should play. I'm not really that good, but I own up to it and don't claim to have *mastered* sheik.

I also don't like it when people come on here and flame "competitive" smashers, when really all it is on both sides is a bunch of n00bs flaming each other, because the real competitive smashers don't really do much other than see where/when tournaments are going on and hardly ever venture into the brawl forum.

:edit: that is because people claiming to be pros actually suck, they just don't admit it.

I admit it, I suck at ssbm.

:double edit: me vs samus is also probably my weakest matchup in the game. I've only ever played with one pretty good samus player, and he just annihilated me. youtube search IHSB or Ihavespaceballs for vids of him playing.

 

[Proteus]

Double Missle is when you jump, fire a missle in the air, and then after the first missle is fired, you fire another before you hit the ground. Very difficult techs, but a must learn.

Triple Missle, you double jump after the first missle, so you can fire another one in the same air time.

Missle cancel is when you fire a missle before landing, so all your lag is eliminated. Its the most vital one, how can you not know that.

You forgot short hop fast fall missle cancel. One of the hardest things to do in the game, in my opinion.

 

[greenblob]

Yeah, those two are important enough, but the whole "waveshinedoublepunch-cancelwaveshinedash" is pretty lame, if you've found a way to completely and utterly destroy the real physics of the game, don't make an *** out of yourself when you play people.

Oh no, my friend used a move in a way that it wasn't meant to be used. He started chaining Marth's utilt on me!
And another friend never uses Sheik's chain attack! How dreadful!
I played some Jigglypuff player who actually combos into Rest! I mean, Rest is meant to be a "OMG I dunno what I'm doing I'll just press buttons randomly ZOMG it worked!" thing, not a controlled and well timed finisher!

 

[MzNetta]

smash tourneys =/= gambling

 

[the grim lizard]

lol, this thread is hilarious now...

The only reason those moves are important is because that is the physics engine of Melee. There is no doubt that they will tweak things one way or another in Brawl. So while the same rules may not apply, advanced techs will come out of the game in some form or another.

Something will come about, there will be new rules, there will be new techniques, and there will be new must-learns for every character. There's no sense dwelling on the old ones for Brawl (unless they're in of course), and there's no sense complaining about adv. techs because they will be in, and people will find them (intended or not), and people will use them; they will become the new standard for playing characters. It's inevitable; so people may as well accept it.

 

[-Foggy-]

Jesus christ some people need to read around here. It seems that most of the people who are against my feelings about being called "casual" are simply angry because I said advanced techniques are a waste of time. Well either look my post over or learn how to read because I said something completely different. I said that why should I learn advanced techs when I could have just as much FUN playing the game without them. Most of the people against me are saying that advanced techs aren't a waste since you win with them, yet most of people saying this probably don't compete in tournaments. If you do, then no, advanced techs ARE worth the effort to learn, but just because I don't play in tourneys or learn advanced techs does not mean I'm a "n00B" or "casual" like a whole lot of idiots like to say.

Also, one person here (I'm not looking back to see) said that ""casual=laid back". But who said I'm laid back? I'm as hardcore a smash player gets without using techs, and I think that's pretty good considering the only people I ever play are my older brother and some friends that occasionally visit. So no, I'm not "laid back" either, which in your terms, means I'm not casual. And yes, It's possible to practice the game and get better over time without frequently wavedashing. I may not be able to beat Ken, or Wes or whoever, but that doesn't matter since the only people I play or my brother and some other people who don't use advanced techs either. So my main point is: it's a waste of time to learn advanced techs since the only people I ever play are other people who don't use them, but that does not mean I am "casual" in any way.

Some people seem to have misunderstood my post, and got pissed off when I said "why should I waste my time learning advanced techs". Although others understand my anger to whom I thank.

Lastly, I forgot to mention something in my last post. Someone else said that many other "casual" gamers bought the game at launch, but are still "casual". Well that may be true, but you can't label them "casual" if they still play the game frequently since launch like I do.

 

[GaryCXJk]

casual != hardcore.

Hardcore often don't have a life. Casuals just casually pick up a game to relax, but they most often just go to a club instead.

 

[Gaudion]

The original post in this thread needs to be stickied. The rest of it has gotten to be... undesireable... but the original post has too much merit to let fade away. This needs to be read by everyone intending to play Brawl competitively on any level.

 

[Octillus]

I like to do three lines of cocaine before each match, and then it definitely becomes a game of chance.

 

[EggBomb]

I like this post, it explains the pro side.

I consider myself one of the best Smash Bros players that I know in both 64 and Melee. In no way am I as good as the pros, and although I can do advanced techs like the wavedash I choose not to. Why? Because I play with casaul players like my friends (in dorms etc). I don't need to pull out the wavedash unless someone pulls it out.

Tourny play is just a new set of rules. I'm sure that I'm not the only one whose group of friends create their own rules. We turn off specific items and stages that we feel are cheap For example, in both versions we take out recovery items...as they are essentially another life and in 3-4 stock matches that makes a HUGE difference in the outcome of the game. Hammers are gone too. We also turn off levels we dislike such as Brinstar depths because the spinning sucks and there have been instances where we've fallen through the level.

I'm going to be blantantly honest here, my problem as a casual player with Tourny players is that it seems many of them are elitist and quick to put down people who don't follow their rules. The opposite is true too. Salaad, for example, said he has been called a cheater and a nerd for following the set of rules established by the tourny community. In each case, the other side is put down because the other wants to be the best at the game. We all have different sets of rules that we follow and NEITHER side should be ridiculed for it. We play the game how we want to play it, we play it to have fun.

It's a gaming community. There are always going to be Casual vs Elite players and debates and insults being thrown around. It happens in almost every game community. It sucks because we should all be brought together because of the game rather then torn apart. Afterall, our love for Smash Bros is what brought us all here in the first place. How we treat others is what separates us.


And Yes...Random explosive crates and capsules have spawned above me and exploded on me. And Yes it sucks, but to me it's just part of the game.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I like this post, it explains the pro side.

I consider myself one of the best Smash Bros players that I know in both 64 and Melee

Anyone else stop reading after this point aswell?

 

[Superstar]

I continued reading

In no way am I as good as the pros

I think he means he is the best he knows in his circle.

 

[the grim lizard]

I dunno, I stopped reading after Dylan_Tnga.

 

[NES n00b]

casual != hardcore.

Hardcore often don't have a life. Casuals just casually pick up a game to relax, but they most often just go to a club instead.

I stopped reading after this. >_>

 

[Endless Nightmares]

These kind of threads already bring in all the scrubs and morons, it's astounding.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I dunno, I stopped reading after Dylan_Tnga.

hehe my post was made after his, so if you stopped reading after you read my post, than you surely read his aswell

The first post in this thread is pretty good though. It pretty much sums up what Ive been trying to say for 3 months.

I can't even try anymore to convince people where I and the rest of the competitive scene are coming from due to it just gets me either spammed or attacked as some big evil tournament player who apparantly is taking planes across the country forcing you to play smashbrothers in a setting that is to his liking.

Im just glad there are others on these boards fighting the good fight though. Keep it up yo.

 

[Mckillyou]

Personally, I'm for typical tournament play and for items on luck of the draw sort of play. I constantly switch between them.

People who insult and accuse because others don't play their way are just ignorant.