Real skill with characters/ nuetral and cp stages

[Zeadro]

This is all stated as (Opinion) only

Well, i would like to start off saying that i thank all of you who read this thread and comment on it. My discussion is about how characters are considered superior to other characters due to the fact that they are higher up on the tier list which i believe to be completly ridiculous. Any character on the tier list can beat top tier/ god tier. For instance why is it that a Falco/Fox/Marth player is considered to have so much skill when a pichu player is considered to have none!? Marth can advance to the top of a tournament and everyone will say the person that plays the character is REally good, but in reality he has NO skill whatsoever. But a pichu player can make it to the third or fourth round and still be considered "garbage"? My point is that it takes little to no actual skill to play these characters. An example: Falco, down A, to reflector shield, to down a, to L-cancel, to down A, to L-cancel to UP A. Opponent is dead. Everyone claps and says to the loser you just got owned. When in reality The opponent playing link most likely had twice the skill then the Falco player. I ask the smash community this, when is the day that we are actually going to realize that people with no skill who play top tier characters and such will not be considered "pro's" due to the fact that the character they play takes no skill whatsoever?

I now move onto my next topic which is some of the neutral stages in melee. Dream land for instance i believe should not be a nuetral stage. Yes it has a flat surface and, has three platforms, but, the wind from the tree, yes, you heard me, the wind from the tree. the wind from the tree can actually blow you off the stage, AND not only that, but, it can stop you from reaching the platform as well! Have we all not seen that most of the nuetral stages chosen as tournament liable are flat surfaced with three platforms? Battlefield, Final destination, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Island (even though shy guy's can get in the way of your attack to another player). But almost none of these stages actually have stage hazards. The tree in Dream land can actually be considered a hazard to the player. It can dramtically slow down your running speed till you get to the other side of it, and can potentially kill you do to the fact that it blows you off the stage and stops you from getting back. I say we get a new nuetral stage instead of Dream Land, and a possible replacement for Yoshi's Island. I ask now from the reader of this thread to please list the CP's or (counter picks) for super smash brothers Melee. Thank you very much and i look forward to your comments.

-Zeadro

 

[Jonas]

You can't make it to the top in a large tournament without skill, even if you use Marth. Believe me, I tried -__-
As for the neutrals, there is not a simple stage in the game that is perfectly neutral. The game is just not perfect, and we kinda have to deal with that. Dreamland is not bad however and if you don't like it you can just strike it, if the tournament allows stage striking.
Anyway inb4lock

 

[Eggm]

For the record the wind on DL64 doesn't effect your character while in the air. It also won't blow you off the stage your character will stop at the edge.

 

[Tyson651]

u're right about characters such as falco who have easier combos and such.

but thats what makes them top tier characters, regardless, its been said that the tier list obviously gives a small advantage (keeping two players of equal skill) to the person using a higher tiered character.

this doesnt, however, exclude personal skill at all. koreandj, even though using fox and sheik, (top tier characters) still beat a lot of people even when he used pichu.

and what happens when everyone uses top tier characters? it all depends on skill doesnt it?

this is usually how our smash scene is like, is it not?

 

[edgeluca]

Falco actually takes a lot of skill. All the technical stuff is what makes him top tier, of course, but it's also what makes him hard to use till you master it all.

 

[sauc3]

For instance why is it that a Falco/Fox/Marth player is considered to have so much skill when a pichu player is considered to have none!?

But a pichu player can make it to the third or fourth round and still be considered "garbage"?

where are you getting these considerations from?

I doubt anyone would call a pichu player who comes third at a tourney garbage. HDL made it to third round pools (if I'm not mistaken, but I may be) at pound 4 with link, and no one calls him garbage.

Now pichu and link may be garbage characters, but the people who control them are far from garbage if they place at (srs) tourneys. Is this where the confusion is? Character vs player?

 

[DTR]

...brawl players

 

[edgeluca]

Besides, most smashers don't label others as 'garbage' anyways. The smash community is, for the most part, very friendly, and most are willing to help lesser players improve. In my experience, it's the brawlers that act immature.

 

[황미영]

Hehe, don't make an ignorant statement calling him a Brawl player. Zeadro is a friend I know in real life who has been talking about this whenever we play Melee or Brawl. I just egged him to make a thread so people can see his views and respond back.

We both have been playing Melee since '01 to this day.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I have read less intelligent posts than this.
Not many, but some.

 

[Kanelol]

I came from a somewhat "competitive" scene of a game you all might of heard of before. I won't really go into it, but in this particular game, there would be obvious skill disparities between two players and the worse one would win just because of the massive class imbalances. That's really the main thing that drove me to quit. Anyway, it was pretty much always painfully obvious who the best player was in any given match-up, regardless of who won.

Now, when I came to smash, I was hugely excited to find I didn't automatically lose based on what character my opponent was using. Also, OP, you seem to act like tech skill is the only factor that goes into winning. Anyone can master all the tech skill of a specific character in a few weeks, but the tech-reading, spacing, and general "mindgames" that go into winning, with high or low tier, is much more important and much more contributing to whether or not someone is considered good.

Also, the tier list isn't there to say who has more skill, it's there to give an unbiased standing on the rankings of characters and their overall chance of success in a tournament setting.

Uh, I had a point somewhere in all of this but I lost it. :[

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Hey do you play as pichu and marth(sadly I think I 2nd him now and main pichu) i'm just worndering if you really play as them? I've been told my marth isn't that great and my pichu is pretty good. I am more solid at punishing, evadeing, tech skill, reading, and mindgames as pichu eeven if my marth can combo, edge gaurd, and space better than my pichu my pichu is still harder to beat. marth in a way takes more skill like as pichu I can get into people decently but as marth I have problems stopping that and I can't use his movement like how I do as pichu.

however pichu takes much more mental/tech/creative skill than marth will ever need. Marth takes more spaceing/combos/edge gaurd/reading.

 

[TL?]

This is all stated as (Opinion) only

My discussion is about how characters are considered superior to other characters due to the fact that they are higher up on the tier list which i believe to be completly ridiculous. Any character on the tier list can beat top tier/ god tier.

For instance why is it that a Falco/Fox/Marth player is considered to have so much skill when a pichu player is considered to have none!?

You just said tiers are ridiculous and any character can beat top tier. Then you say low tiers should be more applauded for beating characters that you said they have no problem defeating.

Marth can advance to the top of a tournament and everyone will say the person that plays the character is REally good, but in reality he has NO skill whatsoever. But a pichu player can make it to the third or fourth round and still be considered "garbage"?

No one disrespects well placing low tiers. Why does playing as marth automatically mean you have "NO skill whatsoever"? You seem like a scrub who is upset that other people win and blame characters for it.

My point is that it takes little to no actual skill to play these characters. An example: Falco, down A, to reflector shield, to down a, to L-cancel, to down A, to L-cancel to UP A. Opponent is dead. Everyone claps and says to the loser you just got owned. When in reality The opponent playing link most likely had twice the skill then the Falco player. I ask the smash community this, when is the day that we are actually going to realize that people with no skill who play top tier characters and such will not be considered "pro's" due to the fact that the character they play takes no skill whatsoever?

Every character takes skill to play. No pro players lack skill. They are the best for a reason.

 

[dragnet4000]

It doesn't depend on the characters, so much as it depends on the people playing the characters. I main Luigi, second either Falco or Marth. The reason being is that some characters you have a feel for, and do well with his style of fighting. Whenever I play against others, they say my Luigi is gay and that i should get off him. Big deal. Tier lists are just for the sake of showing how characters SHOULD do under normal tournament condition. Kage beat Mango (Ganon < Jiggs) even though Mango has a thing with Ganons. All the same it is possible.

The stages, I agree with Jonas. Strike it if you don't like it.

 

[Quic]

By your logic, axe would be the best player in the world.
Axe's pikachu is downright amazing, at pound i remember him playing mango, and thinking he did insanely well, almost making 2 3 stock comebacks on mango.
his falco, however good it is, is not as good as many others, isn't that odd, while axe is clearly one of the best low tier players there is(arguably the best, but that's not the discussion atm), he is not automatically more skilled at playing a high tier than any high tier player because he plays a lower tiered character.
Your 'low tier players who place decent are regarded as garbage' is moot as well, skler/germ/axe may not be winning nationals, but they are highly respected in the community.

 

[Geist]

OP has a warped definition of skill.
You have to put in way more effort into a lower tier character compared to higher tier character to play them at the same level. Skill is subjective. You seem to think that if a pichu player suddenly started playing falco, they would **** everyone. (edit: bah quik beat me to it)
Higher tier characters have a much higher threshold for the level they can be played at. So while so and so's kirby may be amazing, it will never be able to reach the maximum of say, so and so's decent fox. additionally, higher tier characters take just as much skill to play as lower tier characters do, and in many cases, bounds more, considering you can actually DO more with higher tier characters.

 

[CaptainEvilStomper9]

'Tis a troll thread

 

[wiitubeaccount]

all characters take skill. and if people choose their characters knowing that they have certain pros and cons then there is no problem, whomever wins wins. There ain't no meta knight in melee, though i don't think meta is eligible to be banned(yet maybe).
anyway most pros play high to top tier anyways. and melee enables at least middle tiers to challenge the top, with individual skill and experience being the main factor not the character
"Tis a troll thread"- yeah kind of looks like it

 

[lordvaati]

This is all stated as (Opinion) only

Well, i would like to start off saying that i thank all of you who read this thread and comment on it. My discussion is about how characters are considered superior to other characters due to the fact that they are higher up on the tier list which i believe to be completly ridiculous. Any character on the tier list can beat top tier/ god tier. For instance why is it that a Falco/Fox/Marth player is considered to have so much skill when a pichu player is considered to have none!? Marth can advance to the top of a tournament and everyone will say the person that plays the character is REally good, but in reality he has NO skill whatsoever. But a pichu player can make it to the third or fourth round and still be considered "garbage"? My point is that it takes little to no actual skill to play these characters. An example: Falco, down A, to reflector shield, to down a, to L-cancel, to down A, to L-cancel to UP A. Opponent is dead. Everyone claps and says to the loser you just got owned. When in reality The opponent playing link most likely had twice the skill then the Falco player. I ask the smash community this, when is the day that we are actually going to realize that people with no skill who play top tier characters and such will not be considered "pro's" due to the fact that the character they play takes no skill whatsoever?

I now move onto my next topic which is some of the neutral stages in melee. Dream land for instance i believe should not be a nuetral stage. Yes it has a flat surface and, has three platforms, but, the wind from the tree, yes, you heard me, the wind from the tree. the wind from the tree can actually blow you off the stage, AND not only that, but, it can stop you from reaching the platform as well! Have we all not seen that most of the nuetral stages chosen as tournament liable are flat surfaced with three platforms? Battlefield, Final destination, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Island (even though shy guy's can get in the way of your attack to another player). But almost none of these stages actually have stage hazards. The tree in Dream land can actually be considered a hazard to the player. It can dramtically slow down your running speed till you get to the other side of it, and can potentially kill you do to the fact that it blows you off the stage and stops you from getting back. I say we get a new nuetral stage instead of Dream Land, and a possible replacement for Yoshi's Island. I ask now from the reader of this thread to please list the CP's or (counter picks) for super smash brothers Melee. Thank you very much and i look forward to your comments.

-Zeadro

well, for one, there are no god tiers in Melee(not anymore, anyway) and also, what tournaments do you go to?? they usually applaud people who use uncommon characters in Matches. the worst they would say is "hmm, never see many people use *insert character here* much!" and Pichu itself is essentially Dan Hibiki, so he's supposed to be garbage...but they don't say that about the player. and no skill? some top/high tiers are total pains to use. the only easy ones are Peach and Sheik, and when was the last time they won anything? exactly.

Dream Land with wind is no different then Pokemon Stadium with the changing stage thing. besides, the wind isn't really strong, and it even stops blowing you if you stand still on the edge. And since you asked, here are the CPs:

universally accepted:
DK 64
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
Corneria

debateably legal
Poke Floats
Mute City
Jungle Japes

usually banned, but sometimes used
Mushroom kingdom II
Princess Peach's Castle
Green Greens
hope that helps.

 

[황미영]

'Tis a troll thread

No this kid is serious. He didn't really name drop people. But in person he says that Mango has no skill. Zeadro is pretty much ignorant when it comes to this issue.

He goes to central Florida tourneys.

He goes by the name Skynerd in tourneys, you can look him up.

He also does not play Marth. He plays Mario and Dr. Mario in tournaments. He has never used Pichu.

 

[Eggm]

This guy would get along great with dire, wes, kubuu and some other DA guys who used to say this kinda stuff in real life as we all played at NY weeklies saying how brawl was gonna fix everything lol.

 

[Geist]

handicapping yourself doesn't make you a better player.

lol eggm

 

[lordvaati]

No this kid is serious. He didn't really name drop people. But in person he says that Mango has no skill. Zeadro is pretty much ignorant when it comes to this issue.

He goes to central Florida tourneys.

He goes by the name Skynerd in tourneys, you can look him up.

He also does not play Marth. He plays Mario and Dr. Mario in tournaments. He has never used Pichu.

wait, he's a Mario user, like me? now he might get less rep. dammit!

 

[Kanelol]

Guys i play with a controller that had a bunch of chocolate syrup spilt in it so the jump buttons stick, on a TV that's the size of my testicles, and I main Pichu. Also, when I play, I do it with one hand behind my back and I stare at my opponents face instead of the TV.

I'm so much better than all of you cuz i play handicapped and still lose

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

handicapping yourself doesn't make you a better player.QUOTE]
Bull crap, that's why I played as pichu at first(only bottom tier i really liked there are many other reasons also). I handicapped myself by playing as pichu and I rpidly started to improve till the point were my pichu could beat anyone one esle I play as if I could play myself. I also play a lot of marth.

So this thread is a wtf to me because I play as both a lot and pichu only takes a little more skill(techical pichu) I also can approach better as pichu becuase I have learned his movement and size pretty well.

 

[PEEF!]

This guy should be stripped of his smash director status. My blue name feels dirty.

If a pichu player made it out of pools andinto the 3rd or 4th round of a serious melee tournament, he would not only be thought to be good, but he would basically be worshipped.

 

[Zeadro]

You all seem to be missing the point here. I recently started maining pichu. And no, im not bashing pichu at all. I'm appalauding the fact that pichu mainers are out there in the world. Okay, really! YOu think the only easy to play people are peach and shiek!? Okay okay, now i know you bluffing. Fox/falco/marth have got to be the easiest characters to use. It takes NO skill to play them. I don't main falco or fox and i can beat Kishiru(who by the way stalks every post i make) all day long. It isn't hard to play them. A person who really thinks it takes skill to play a top tier needs to get their head on straight. And by the way, whatever happend to good old fashion just playing the game for fun instead of being serious all the time! Whatever happend to lets play with items just for the hell of it? Or lets play a special melee ex:lighting melee. Anyway, continue bashing me all you wan't. And i don't personally mind it because what i was really hoping to do in making this thread was for people to realize my ideals and see the light through the fog for the first time. ALright Skynerd/Zeadro out!

 

[lordvaati]

You all seem to be missing the point here. I recently started maining pichu. And no, im not bashing pichu at all. I'm appalauding the fact that pichu mainers are out there in the world. Okay, really! YOu think the only easy to play people are peach and shiek!? Okay okay, now i know you bluffing. Fox/falco/marth have got to be the easiest characters to use. It takes NO skill to play them. I don't main falco or fox and i can beat Kishiru(who by the way stalks every post i make) all day long. It isn't hard to play them. A person who really thinks it takes skill to play a top tier needs to get their head on straight. And by the way, whatever happend to good old fashion just playing the game for fun instead of being serious all the time! Whatever happend to lets play with items just for the hell of it? Or lets play a special melee ex:lighting melee. Anyway, continue bashing me all you wan't. And i don't personally mind it because what i was really hoping to do in making this thread was for people to realize my ideals and see the light through the fog for the first time. ALright Skynerd/Zeadro out!

I didn't say they were the only ones: I said they were the easiest. and if you were talking about using top tiers in iytems play, then yes, top tiers are gods with items. Falco is crazy good with items. we, however are talking about without items, which explains why you think oterwise with your opinions. and what you are bluntly saying in a nutshell is the game takes no skill at all....and if that's so, why'd you make the rant in the first place?

 

[AXE 09]

playing a lower tiered character doesn't make you better than someone else who plays a high tier character

the fact is (as stated before), the tier list shows what character is more likely to win based on 2 people with the exact same skill level. the fact is, i don't think that anyone has the same skill level

if you're using a low tier character and you have more skill than someone else, you're most likely going to win. now, i will admit that there are certain matchups where the lower skilled player will win (in my case, fighting a sheik with my pikachu), but this is why you should pick a secondary character as well.

my secondary is falco. i play falco A LOT. and by your logic, i would place higher in every tournament if i used only him instead of pikachu. the fact is, i only use falco for matchups like sheik. my pikachu always gives me better than results than falco does, except in specific matchups of course.

so basically, i've realized that playing a higher tiered character doesn't make you win. it's your skill that makes you win. it's not often at all that 2 people will fight, and the person with less skill will win regardless of the characters they use. if you're constantly losing to someone, i hate to say it, but you're probably less skilled than them

i don't think i need to discuss anything about dreamland. seems like everyone in this thread already talked about it. Eggz said exactly what i was thinking


EDIT: oh and by the way, falco takes A LOT of skill to use at a high level, as does every character. you can't bash on a player based on the character that they use.

and if you're talking about just playing for fun with items on, then why did you make your first post concerning about competitive play?

 

[CloneHat]

How is Fox easy to play? Sure you can just c stick bad players to death, but on a high level, he's the most technical character.

 

[Geist]

Bull crap, that's why I played as pichu at first(only bottom tier i really liked there are many other reasons also). I handicapped myself by playing as pichu and I rpidly started to improve till the point were my pichu could beat anyone one esle I play as if I could play myself. I also play a lot of marth.

Well, experience made you a better player then, not the lone fact you play Pichu. Maining Pichu didn't make you good at Marth, it made you good at Pichu. No matter what character you play, you still learn the fundamentals of becoming a skilled player.

I think you're confused with standard level and high level play Zeadro. High tier characters are generally easier to pick up, and are, for the most part, easy to get good with. But only up to a certain point. As soon as you get into higher levels of play you can't rely on conventional tactics that every character can rely on.
Don't let the tier list get to your head, it's not as definitive as you think.

 

[황미영]

Also guys, remember. He claims people who play top tier characters have no skill whatsoever. I don't even know why I am worth being mentioned, when I don't even place at all. I get last place.

And the whole items thing, came up from us playing today. Where he wanted to play for fun, while I wanted to play to get better.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think he fails to realize that neither he, nor the people who he's accustomed to playing are even mid level players (no offense Kishiru, you're a cool dude).

Tell him to go to a tournament and fight someone "less skilled than him" (by his standards) with their own character. He'll get *****, realize he's terrible and that character choice has nothing to do with it, and maybe he'll finally be able to get better.

btw Zeadro, we can fight. First I'll **** you with Marth, then I'll let you pick Marth and I'll **** you with Roy.

 

[황미영]

Hehe. It's all good.

And believe it or not, you already ***** Zeadro with Marth. ;O During the Brawl tourney where we played TvC also where Shaky got second.

The only person he really plays is just me. Until I got him going to tourneys where he gets ***** by everyone here. xD (In both games. ;O)

Oh, also he is leaving Florida for college this Thursday. So he won't be playing here anymore. He says he will win a tourney one day so when he moves. He'll probably still go to tourneys. Let's just see how long it takes, and who he uses.

 

[Dark Sonic]

0_o, I'm sorry I don't really remember people too well.

Hopefully he'll get past this mindset so that he can improve (Axe summed it up really well.)

1. The tier list is just a list of characters in order from best to worst assuming the players are equally skilled and have to fight a variety of characters (which simply does not happen, so we form our opinions of characters based on tournament results)

2. Moving to a character higher on the tier list =/= more success.

3. The position of a character on the tier list has nothing to do with their difficulty (though low tier characters are hard to win with because they are limited, not because they're technically demanding. There's a big difference between a character having difficult options to execute and a character simply not having options).


Basically, if what he is saying were true, every low tier player would just switch to Fox and win tournaments (after all, it's free money if they're more skilled right?). Since that is not the case, what he is saying must be false (simple logic really)

 

[1048576]

Nobody would call Taj garbage. I'd smack 'em.

That is all.

 

[yuki-chaan]

You all seem to be missing the point here. I recently started maining pichu. And no, im not bashing pichu at all. I'm appalauding the fact that pichu mainers are out there in the world. Okay, really! YOu think the only easy to play people are peach and shiek!? Okay okay, now i know you bluffing. Fox/falco/marth have got to be the easiest characters to use. It takes NO skill to play them. I don't main falco or fox and i can beat Kishiru(who by the way stalks every post i make) all day long. It isn't hard to play them. A person who really thinks it takes skill to play a top tier needs to get their head on straight. And by the way, whatever happend to good old fashion just playing the game for fun instead of being serious all the time! Whatever happend to lets play with items just for the hell of it? Or lets play a special melee ex:lighting melee. Anyway, continue bashing me all you wan't. And i don't personally mind it because what i was really hoping to do in making this thread was for people to realize my ideals and see the light through the fog for the first time. ALright Skynerd/Zeadro out!

I find it the most fun to play some one on ones without items
SO you're just kinda wrong
and if you're winning with fox/falco/marth all the time without skill, you gotta find some more people to play

 

[n1000]

*censor dodging*

 

[ETWIST51294]

Skynerd vv

HAI GUYZ IM SKYNRED AND I'M A SCRUB ADN I THINK MELLE ADN BARLW HIGH TIRES TAKE NO SKILLZ. LOW TEIRZ FTW

FOX MARF AND FLACO TAKE NO SKILL! SAME WITH MK AND SNAKE IN BARLW! GOOD=EASY

hey, i hurd u liek high tires WELL U SUCK JUST LIKE MANGO

I WANT YOU TO NO THAT HIGH TEIRS TAKE NO SKILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111!!!!!1

 

[Eggz]

I think that learning to use a low tier character at tournament level gives a player more potential if he later completely converts to a high tier character. I have no basis for this, but it makes sense. Learning to deal with weaknesses and capitalize strengths becomes more important when your character is garbage.

But if you just force a low tier player to get good with a high tier character they don't thoroughly enjoy playing, it won't work out. You're good with who you're good with, and that can only be a character you enjoy to the utmost. IE back in the day "GIMPYFISH SHOULD PLAY FOX HED BE THE BEST" nah. gimpyfish loves bowser and thats why hes good with him