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Rate Their Chances - Smash Ultimate Edition! Day 672: Five Most Likely First and Third Parties for Smash 6, and Final Goodbyes

Laniv

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
2,285
The Camelot Boys

Chance for both: 0%

Just like with Ashley, both of these guys are Assist Trophies, wich puts them out of the running. Sure, they've got the fan demand, but at this point, it's just not enough. They've got a good chance to be base game newcomers in the far-off Smash 6, but now? I don't see it.

Want for Waluigi: 1%

There are a lot of Mario characters I think should be playable first, like Toad or Captain Toad, or Pauline (because she counts as a Mario character now I guess), or King Boo, or Paper Mario. I'm just not really that interested in him that much.

Want for Isaac: 67%

Same general reasoning as with Andy. I've never actually played a Golden Sun game, but I can appreciate what it's about, and I do think we could use some more plant/nature themed fighters besides Ivysaur. Also I kinda want to see the fireworks from Isaac fans if he gets in.

Predictions for Louie: 12% Chance, 27% Want


Nominate Bowser's Castle stage x 5
 

BowserKing

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2019
Messages
1,918
Location
winnipeg
Waluigi

Chance: 10%. With only one slot left, Waluigi’s appearance would be a hype moment for many. But with him as an assist, his chance is quite low, but he could be a Mii Costume as well.

Want: 55%. He would be fun to play as, and I can see him and Wario team up against Mario and Luigi once again. A moveset would be interesting as well. Overall, he has potential to a decent Smash Bros rep, but I honestly prefer it if Fawful got in first.

Issac

Chance: 10%. Given that Golden Sun has not gotten a new game in a long time, Issac’s chance would appear to be low, but if that did not stop Banjo and Kazooie or Pit get in, then being an assist could do the job. I’m not saying that assists decomfirm, but I don’t see assists being promoted as DLC (not yet, but not now)

Want: 95%. Issac would totally be fun to play as, and I can see him team up with Link against Bowser and Ridley, but also see him face off against Rathalos as a boss. Overall, he would make a brilliant smash bros Rep.

Prediction: Louie (10%)

Noms: 5 for Boss: Rayquaza
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
22,656
Location
Scotland
ah "venus rising" and "guys who fans bring him up at every chance even when it comes across as inappropriate"

isaac
chances: 0% at this point i doubt we're getting an AT upgrade. even if we did i wouldnt fancy isaac's chances. i seem to recall isaac had ridley levels of popularity and sakurai thought that was worth of bring back an AT and giving him a costume. he is one of the many reasons i no longer put much stock in being popular. it took the ballot to get ridley and k.rool in, that didnt work for isaac and with camelot caught in its tennis golf loop GS aint coming back any time soon. so again id have trouble thinking it would happen even if he wasnt an AT.

want: 80% but he be so cool to play as. summoning plants and the power of the earth and all the djin powers, this guy wouldnt even need to use his sword. not thatd stop the anti sword crowd from complaining. id espcially love it if his final smash summoned seraph to blast the place, thatd be awesome. i enjoyed the golden sun games a lot and would love to see isaac on the roster. or matthew or ivan. it would be amazing.

double zeroes for the other guy. hes an AT hes not happening.

noms go to spirit events continue after pass.
 

DrifloonEmpire

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 2, 2019
Messages
2,230
Waluigi

Chance: 5% -
Being an assist trophy is a massive blow, but I'm willing to keep him in the running, even with a low chance. His disclusion made the news, his fan demand has only grown stronger, and Nintendo addressed it directly. Furthermore, Waluigi continues to get appearances, even if only in spinoffs, and references here and there in games he isn't in. So he's the only assist I can see getting promoted at this point in time. Still, Waluigi's got a lot working against him at this point in time. Sakurai seems to have SOMETHING against him, don't know why, and Miyamoto probably has a bit of an aversion to him due to him being created by Camelot and not Nintendo. Plus, even if he's the most likely assist to get promoted, he's still an assist trophy, and with one slot left things aren't looking good for him. Still, he's a possibility.

Want: 100% - As a big Mario fan, Waluigi would be an absolutely hilarious addition to the roster and it'd be a blast seeing him fight alongside Wario! Being a self-proclaimed cheater, he could have a lot of great dirty tricks up his sleeve, and pair that with some sports and party moves (especially since Daisy, being an echo, didn't get to do much to represent sports) and some bombs and you've got a wacky moveset that lives up to the hype! He'd be so unorthodox compared to Mario/Luigi/Wario which only makes it even more glorious. Furthermore, it's often cited that there'd be nothing in terms of content to come with. Aside from a few songs and spirits, both Mario Golf and Mario Party have little to no representation in Smash (Paper Mario and Mario Kart are the only spinoffs that really get any love), and that'd be perfect for a Waluigi challenger pack! Bringing those into the fray would perfectly complete the pillars of the Mario franchise, and what better way to do it than a character known for spinoffs? Furthermore, I've been having a blast with Waluigi recently as well. My friends and I have been doing tons of Mario Party 3 so he's played a major role, and for our version of Waluigi we even designed an elaborate gambling system for him, it's been a blast! xD So yeah, let's get this man into the game!



Isaac

Chance: 0.5% -
Isaac's in a similar spot, but has way more disadvantages compared to his Camelot buddy. Unlike Waluigi, Isaac doesn't have the relevance or news-making power that could make him an exception. His franchise's last game last game was in 2007 and it doesn't seem to be getting a new game anytime soon, so he doesn't get a mulligan. All of that trademark buildup and "absence in Camelot's schedule" meant nothing, that time was spent developing Mario Golf. I really can't see Nintendo bringing back Golden Sun back anytime soon either. Mario Sports games are too profitable, and they already have their JRPG fix with Fire Emblem, Xenoblade (their new rising star, really hit a hole in one with its' second entry) and Square stuff. There really isn't any room for Isaac to tee off in Nintendo's eyes when it comes to this genre, this kind of thing kept F-Zero off of the course after all. And finally, well, Isaac's an assist trophy. Fan demand can get you far, but he doesn't quite have Waluigi's level, it isn't up to par. So the only Golden Sun we'll be seeing anytime soon is one shining down on a bright, open fairway.

Want: 20% - While I do feel bad for Isaac fans, the overconfidence in those trademarks really got to me quickly, and it wasn't exactly a 5-Ironclad argument either. Furthermore, I have never played any of the Golden Sun games, and JRPG fatigue continues to hit hard. Nonetheless, Isaac would be way more unique than the average rep in that genre, if his assist is anything to go by, and like Lloyd, he's a JRPG rep that actually has plenty of fan demand, so he wouldn't be a bad choice. Still, there's way more characters, especially first party reps, that I'd much rather see, especially in the last slot. There's only one extra seat in that golf cart, after all.



Nominations:
DJ Octavio xAll

Predictions:
Louie - 16.93% - Last time we rated Louie, Pikmin had an uncertain future, and that was the main argument against him. Now with Pikmin 3 Deluxe's success, along witht he new merchandise and the mobile game, Pikmin is back in business, so expecting more confident ratings. Still, with one slot left, and the fact that this success came long after the pass was decided, I don't expect the ratings boost to be big.
 
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GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
THESE CHARACTERS ARE LOCKED DOWN, NOMINATIONS FOR THEM ARE OBSOLETE

Day 635: Louie (Pikmin)
Day 636: Octoling (Splatoon)
Day 637: Mii Costume: 2B (NieR)
Day 638: Pyramid Head (Silent Hill)
Day 639: Junpei (Zero Escape)
Day 640: Concept: Virtual idols like Hatsune Miku

Day 641: Concept: Danganronpa protagonist

Quite appropriately, Junpei did end up taking fifth place at the last moment. And at over 500 noms, Louie is now the highest nominated character ever!

Your new top seven consists of Meat Boy, Corvo Attano, Tetra, Senator Armstrong, Ori, Bandana Dee, and Gunvolt.


Meat Boy x315
Corvo Attano x300
Tetra x260
Senator Armstrong x260
Ori x240
[Rerate] Bandana Dee x230
Gunvolt x225

250 - 201

Ratchet & Clank x215
Giygas x205
[Rerate] Kiryu x205
Boss: Rayquaza x205
Stage: Bowser's Castle x202

200 - 151

Sackboy x185
[Rerate] Tails x185
Kaede Akamatsu x180
Echo (Bowser) x153

150 - 101

Fulgore x142
Mii Costume: Alex Kidd x138
Boss: Ender Dragon x138
Mii Costume: Monika x135
Concept: Spirit Events continue after the Fighter Pass x125
Stage: Tetris x120
Soma Cruz x117
D.Va x115
[Rerate] Gene x110
Concept: Crazy Taxi character x105

100 - 51

Concept: Destroy All Humans content x95
Legends Trainer x90
Concept: Next game is not a reboot x85
[Rerate] Eggman x85
Magolor x85
Concept: Darksiders rep x80
DJ Octavio x80
Off The Hook x80
Concept: More ATs as one new item x75
Dwight Fairfield (Dead by Daylight) x75
Concept: Rocket League rep x75
Concept: SNES-era Final Fantasy rep x75
Echo (Olimar) x66
[Rerate] Zhao Yun x65
Concept: Rhythm Heaven rep x65
Ghirahim x60
[Rerate] Sora x60
Vi (Bug Fables) x55
Echo: Zeraora (Lucario) x55
[Rerate] Jin Kazama x55
Jin Sakai x55

50 - 25

[Rerate] Agumon x50
Plague Knight x50
Springtrap x50
Lugia x45
Mii Costume: Zagreus x40
E.M.M.I. x40
Filia (Skullgirls) x31
Captain Charlie (Pikmin) x30
Joe Random (MLB: The Show) x30
Concept: Large and Normal Final Destination made into separate stages x25

Under 25

Regigigas x20
[Rerate] Metal Sonic x20
Concept: Bonus Fighter x20
Donbe and Hikari x20
[Rerate] Spyro x20
[Rerate] Earthworm Jim x16
Yarn Yoshi x15
[Rerate] Shovel Knight x15
Echo: Ms. Pac-Man x15
[Rerate] Ezio Auditore da Firenze x15
Concept: Bonus Stages to fill out the stage select screen x15
Tetris x10
Slash Kamei (Snowboard Kids) x10
Jesse Faden x10
Infernape x10
[Rerate] Gex x10
[Rerate] Concept: Echo Fighters Pass x10
[Rerate] Q*Bert x10
[Rerate] Ryu Hayabusa x10
Omori x10
Mii Costume: Among Us x10
[Rerate] Brian x7
Concept: Rocket League content x5
[Rerate] Thrall x5
[Rerate] Lara Croft x5
Stage: Tetris 99 x5
Concept: Raizing shmup rep x5
Concept: KOS-MOS with T-elos alt x5
[Rerate] Master Hand x5
[Rerate] Elma x5
Siris (Infinity Blade) x5
Concept: Tsukihime rep x5
Concept: Challenger Pack with more than 15 spirits x5
Arcueid Brunestud (Tsukihime) x5
Firebrand x1

Stage: Bowser's Castle conquers 200 noms.

Rhythm Heaven rep dances past 50 noms.

Your new challenger for today is a rerate of Spyro, starting out at 20 noms.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
I'm going to switch up my structure a bit today because Waluigi and Isaac share many points in common and many distinctions so I don't want to rate them separately as I usually do. In many ways they're two sides of one coin so it's only fair to compare them and see their pros and cons.

The two characters have, I'd say, a single avenue for inclusion, and that is if Nintendo wanted FP11 to be a fan favorite. We still haven't gotten a character that was heavily demanded by the hardcore crowd in Vol 2, so it's a possibility (and it's also a possibility that we just don't get one, mind you). If that is indeed the case, then these two are in maybe the best position. They are after all two of the most wanted characters in the fandom, if not the top 2. They are also first party which means no pesky profit sharing or licensing.

However if popularity is of little importance (as frankly most DLC would seem to point to), then there's not much hope for them. At one point it seemed like Isaac could hang his hopes on a Golden Sun remake, only for Mario Golf to get announced and Advance Wars to get the remake treatment instead. As for Waluigi, he shows up in so many spin-offs that he could theoretically promote several games at once. However, the eerily-timed Super Rush Spirits cast some doubt on that idea—while Waluigi could still promote, say, the new Mario Party, Super Rush seemed like an obvious source for his Spirit Board. There are still potential Spirits in play and we don't know what they'd do with Waluigi, for all we know they would just add 10 different Waluigi renders in funny poses. But it is a blow to his chances in my view, as it means that in all likelihood Nintendo doesn't view those games as needing a fighter to promote them.

The question then becomes: why would they be FP11? Well, for Isaac, it's easy. As a character hailing from a long-dead IP with no future games in the works (that we know of), he's by far the nichest character in the Pass. As much as I love the guy he's the sales equivalent of preaching to the choir and likely wouldn't move the needle much.

For Waluigi the answer is more complex. On one hand, as the 10th Mario character, you could make the case that he's just not as exciting an addition and that he wouldn't make as big a splash as they'd want to from an early character. On the other hand, he's a Mario character so he'd be heavily in contention to be the single most iconic character in all the DLC, and his demand transcends the hardcore fandom to the point where him becoming an Assist Trophy made the news. The argument that he wouldn't make a splash is so dumb only the suits at Nintendo could believe it. Personally? Yeah, I have him as a "this character is too big to be FP11", with a small asterisk.

Overall, the recent Spirit Event, plus this being the final character makes me see Isaac as the likelier of the two. However I'd be shocked (pleasantly) if either of them was FP11. I am not expecting Nintendo to want a fan-favorite at this point in time unless the stars align for them.

As for want? It's hard to find new ways to say how much I love these characters. For Isaac, the first two Golden Suns are RPG masterpieces that absolutely deserve the attention and within Smash itself Isaac would bring a still-untapped archetype, amazing music and a fantastic stage. As for Waluigi, man deserves it at this point, c'mon. It's ridiculous that Smash has gone five entries without playable Waluigi.

Side note: I did not expect so many people to consider "0% chance. Assist Trophy disconfirm" to be a logically sound argument in 2021 but here we are I guess.

Waluigi chance: 7%
Isaac chance: 18%
Want for both: 100%

Nominations: Magolor
Louie prediction: 2.51%
 

Yiptap

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,315
Location
The Flat Eric cult
Insert "Wah" joke here

Chance: 0%
It's extremely obvious. Waluigi is a god damn assist trophy. I'm a firm believer in Assist Trophy deconfirms, but what else stands between Waluigi and Smash? Well I've seen some leaks on 4chan that say AT upgrades can happen, and the respective Assist Trophy upgraded gets replaced. But if this is true, who could replace Waluigi? No one. Ok, 4chan leaks aside, I believe Sakurai has made it clear that he doesn't want Waluigi in Ultimate. He revealed him as the first Assist Trophy in both 4 and Ultimate. Plus, due to the terrible toxicity from Waluigi fans, Sakurai has all the reason to not want him to get in. (As you can see, the core of this argument is Waluigi being an assist trophy.)

Want: 80%
Waluigi, in my opinion, is one of the most deserving characters to get in as a fighter. He represents an important part of the Mario franchise not yet represented with a fighter: the spinoff games (I guess you could argue Rosalina represents that, but I feel she mostly represents Galaxy). Not even the toxicity of the fans can stop me from loving the Wahnderful tennis pro of the Mushroom Kingdom. Plus, it would be nice to see an Assist upgrade. Overall, he would be a pretty cool fighter in smash.

Isaac at being an assist trophy

Chance: 0%
It's extremely obvious. Isaac is a god damn assist trophy. I'm a firm believer in Assist Trophy deconfirms, but what else stands between Isaac and Smash? Well I've seen some leaks on 4chan that say AT upgrades can happen, and the respective Assist Trophy upgraded gets replaced. But if this is true, who could replace Isaac? Ok, maybe Felix, but that's besides the point. 4chan leaks aside, Isaac doesn't have anything going for him. Unlike Waluigi, Isaac is in obscurity hell. When people bring up JRPGs, Golden Sun will most likely get one mention. It just doesn't have the relavance to hold up. (As you can see, the core of this argument is Isaac being an assist trophy.) ;)


Want: 10%
I don't have any attachment to Golden Sun as a series, so I can't really have interest in this character. He also seems kinda bland, imo. I gave a 10% because I feel bad for his fans. Overall, I just don't like him all that much.

Noms: Meat Boy x 10
 
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DanganZilla5

Smash Champion
Writing Team
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Messages
2,434
Before I get into my ratings, I want to ask what justifies giving assist trophies a 0%? ARMS and Xenoblade 2 showed that base game content doesn't affect this fighters pass. I get the argument that they are a compensation prize and Nintendo could see them as enough representation but idk I feel like this is another fan rule that might age poorly. I haven't seen any really good arguments that convince me that assist trophies can't be upgraded. I'm not saying that there HAS to be an upgrade, I'm just saying that we shouldn't count them out. Moving on....

purple funny man

Chance: 22%

This is the one right here. The character that got mainstream attention at the mere deconfirmation of him in the base roster. The character who probably caused the biggest social media outcry and whose fan demand is so notable it's one giant meme (But of course there are still plenty of genuine Waluigi fans who really do unironically want him). So if there is one assist trophy that will get upgraded, it's most likely the purple funny guy. But exactly how likely he is?

Well first let's look at the Mario crew. I don't think Paper Mario is happening after the Origami KIng spirit event and Geno is beyond dead. IMO that removes two of Waluigi's biggest threats. The other two candidates who I think could have a shot are King Boo and Captain Toad. The former has the advantage of being in mainline games and the latter has their own game, but overall Waluigi trounces both of them in sheer popularity and fan demand. I wanna say that alone definitely makes Waluigi the frontrunner for the next Mario rep but after Piranha Plant you can't ever be sure.

Now there is also the factor that the last fighter will be a fan favorite if Nintendo did want to end this game off with a bang. Now I've always stuck with the pattern that the last picks are never majorly hype ones but this is Ultimate so I'll be the devil's advocate and say that there is a decent chance the pattern could break here. Waluigi's chances also depend on how much you believe that we could get a bonus fighter. Sakurai did say that CP11 is the only thing left, and for now I'll trust his word, but that doesn't take away the fact that he wouldn't just spoil a bonus fighter as if it is happening, it'll be a surprise.

Overall, I'm fairly confident in his chances. I know this score is a bit high but admittedly I'm basing it partially on a gut feeling. I see him as a wildcard.

Want: 75%

I'm not a super big fan of him, but I think he's funny and one of my best friends is a huge Waluigi fan so yeah I would be happy if he got in. I genuinely think he would be a fun addition and a great send-off for Ultimate.

_____________________

The sun will rise for a new Golden Sun game, just not right now

Chance: 8%

Yeah, I think Isaac's chances really depended on that supposed new Golden Sun game being announced by now. Not that it's a necessity, but considering how Sakurai seems to be hesitant on adding him for some reason despite his huge fan demand, I think a new game would have really helped out his case, more than a lot of characters IMO. I think his saving grace is the argument that the ballot-era characters have gotten a lot of love in this game and if Nintendo wanted to choose a fan favorite to end the game with, I could see them feasibly choosing Isaac. But at this point I'm not sure on how much I'm willing to bet on that. Out of all the assist trophies, he is possibly within the top 3 behind Waluigi and Ashley in my mind but it's not like these characters are directly competing against each other aside from just being general competition anyway.

Want: 95%

The Isaac fanbase is one of the most passionate fanbases I've ever seen and their essays and writeups for Isaac in Smash and Golden Sun in general are fantastic and convinced me that Isaac would be a great choice for Smash. I can't quite go the full 100 because I haven't played too much of Golden Sun but I'm a sucker for fan favorites getting in. Plus seeing brand new Nintendo series get in is always great too. As for Isaac himself, he would have a very creative moveset that I would love to see get realized. Finally, the music is bangin' so I'm up for more music from the series too.

Prediction: Louie - 7%

Noms: Destroy All Humans content x20
 

Yiptap

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Location
The Flat Eric cult
Before I get into my ratings, I want to ask what justifies giving assist trophies a 0%? ARMS and Xenoblade 2 showed that base game content doesn't affect this fighters pass. I get the argument that they are a compensation prize and Nintendo could see them as enough representation but idk I feel like this is another fan rule that might age poorly. I haven't seen any really good arguments that convince me that assist trophies can't be upgraded. I'm not saying that there HAS to be an upgrade, I'm just saying that we shouldn't count them out. Moving on....
Well, with ARMS and Xenoblade 2, they ended up choosing a different rep from the series that wasn't an Assist Trophy.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Waluigi

Chance: 20%. He's one of the top characters in iconicness and popularity, but also a guy who would sell like hotcakes. And Nintendo is aware of these requests and the backlash at him still being an AT. It's not much, but that alone makes him a very easy pick for Nintendo. At that point, it's mainly if Sakurai is against giving an AT another role like that or not. He wasn't against doing so for Spirits, but they're still updated Trophies and not there in the same way. Mii Costumes were never upgraded in the same game either, which are similar to AT's in the sense of "representing a full character" in a way, as well as partially a constellation prize.

Want: 100%. He's one of the few missing Super Mario characters to me. The others being Toad and somewhat Geno. I can't really speak on all-stars, or things like sub series, etc. Cause there's a lot of characters who debuted in the sub-series and became all-stars on their own(Toadette, exactly what happened with Waluigi).

Isaac

Chance: 5%. Unless a new Golden Sun is coming to promote, I just don't see him have a real chance here. It's not a matter of Nintendo simply noticing him. It's a matter of things like recency. They at least are more aware of his requests than before, same with Golden Sun's return. But these are big ifs, and Camelot was last working on another Sports game. It doesn't help that the trademark stuff isn't really as impactful as it was thought to be(multiple trademarks were created for games that saw absolutely nothing, like Wii Music. So who knows exactly why they're doing the trademarks here. I am not going to really speculate on that, though. I don't know enough to really have an idea of what it could mean).

Want: 90%. He's not my top magical warrior option here, but he's sure as hell a good one. Whether it's to focus on the concept of magic throughout all of Golden Sun, using utility moves for things like throws or more, or even just focusing on Earth and/or Djinn, he's got a huge amount of options to work with. Incidentally, my top Magical Warrior is Slime(who isn't there cause Hero is, which is fine. I just want Slime more overall for how funny the moveset could be. That, and I was able to imagine a really easy one despite playing very few DQ games. I actually played Golden Sun way more, oddly enough). Anyway, Isaac is more than good enough regardless, and it's more that times have changed, so my want for him isn't as big as before.

Louie Prediction: 15%
Noms: Fulgore x 5

Well, with ARMS and Xenoblade 2, they ended up choosing a different rep from the series that wasn't an Assist Trophy.
ARMS' character was directly chosen by Yabuki, so it has nothing to do with the AT that we can really discern from. There's nothing to suggest it legit mattered. The only thing about Spring Man that was noted is that people thought he was the core protagonist, but the game doesn't have a core one. So Sakurai explained that to make the choice seem more logical/okay to do.

...How does this relate to Xenoblade 2, though? Rex was a costume, and he was outright considered and couldn't be used fully as ideal due to technical issues. Pyra and Rex were treated as the most likely anyway among discussion, with it being very close to that in the final game.
 
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DanganZilla5

Smash Champion
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Well, with ARMS and Xenoblade 2, they ended up choosing a different rep from the series that wasn't an Assist Trophy.
I'm assuming you meant ARMS since Xenoblade 2 didn't have an assist trophy. The thing with MIn MIn is that Yabuki was the reason she was chosen. Now to be fair Sakurai only brought up Min Min and Ninjara and not Spring Man but you could also reasonably rationalize it as him simply thinking that the former two were more interesting characters than Spring Man, not because he was an assist trophy. I really wish that Sakurai did address this situation but until I hear him say that assist trophies deconfirm for DLC, they don't deconfirm.
 

Yiptap

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I'm assuming you meant ARMS since Xenoblade 2 didn't have an assist trophy. The thing with MIn MIn is that Yabuki was the reason she was chosen. Now to be fair Sakurai only brought up Min Min and Ninjara and not Spring Man but you could also reasonably rationalize it as him simply thinking that the former two were more interesting characters than Spring Man, not because he was an assist trophy. I really wish that Sakurai did address this situation but until I hear him say that assist trophies deconfirm for DLC, they don't deconfirm.
That's fair, I shouldn't have automatically assumed that.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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That's fair, I shouldn't have automatically assumed that.
Some don't legit know about Yabuki, so thought the AT mattered. It's best to treat it as a "in limbo" in terms of mattering. For all we know, Yabuki might've taken that into account too. Nintendo really wouldn't, since that's not their problem. Obviously Sakurai would have his own opinion of it too. The way I looked at Sakurai's statement is that his personal choices were Min Min or Ninjara, however, neither were things like Mii Costumes or AT's at the time of Ultimate's base, so Spring Man was probably the obvious choice for playable(or at least considered if an ARMS character was actually considered in general, instead of saying "well, it was too late" and that was it. If any were looked at, Spring Man was very clearly considered regardless).

It's an honest mistake. No worries. :)
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
Calcs night

Rayman
9.67% Chance - 68.50% Want
I. 36.86% - 59.88%
II. 8.15% - 64.03%
III. 11.53% - 52.35%
IV. 22.86% - 59.00%
V. 14.23% - 64.33%
The winner of predictions was Perkilator Perkilator with 10.00%

Sol Badguy
6.56% Chance - 66.86% Want
I. 28.25% - 50.43%
II. 31.00% - 51.18%
III. 24.26% - 63.33%
The winners of predictions were Perkilator Perkilator BowserKing BowserKing and Sari Sari with 10.00%

Concept: Disgaea rep
8.14% Chance - 47.00% Want
For comparison, last time we rated this it got 12% chance and 48% want, so, basically the same scores.
The winner of predictions was Sari Sari with 8.50%

Sakura Shinguji
2.50% Chance - 29.17% Want
The first time we rated her (after Steve released) she got 12.33% chance and 40.59% want. The last time (post-Sephiroth) she got 15.93% chance and 51.67% want. What changed? I have two theories. One is simply that her fans didn't show up, whereas on her two previous days they had en masse. The other is that suddenly Sega has a lot of appealing candidates, making her suffer in comparison.
The winner of predictions was WeirdChillFever WeirdChillFever with the lowest prediction, a 3.33%
Sakura is today's inductee into the Less Likely Than Goku club.

Axel Stone
6.29% Chance - 72.14% Want
Last time we rated him he got 18.38% chance and 64.14% want. It appears Streets of Rage 4 is just old news when Sega has stuff like Puyo Puyo Tetris 2, Monkey Ball Banana Mania, PSO2 New Genesis and of course Shin Megami Tensei V. On the bright side people like him a lot better.
The winner of predictions was BowserKing BowserKing with 5.00%

Andy
14.35% Chance - 67.50% Want
The first time we rated him he got 1.48% chance and 59.96% want. The last time, after Min Min proved that Spirits are fair game, saw him rise to 5.56% chance and 67.81% want. Doesn't take a genius to deduce what made his chance soar since then.
The winners of predictions were WeirdChillFever WeirdChillFever and Sari Sari with 15.00%

Ashley
5.68% Chance - 56.09% Want
The first time we rated her she got 6.84% chance and 53.00%. The last time she got 5.57% chance and 43.33% want. What changed since then? Well... you'd think nothing, considering how flat her scores are. Goes to show how entrenched the belief in Assist Trophy disconfirmations is that not even a sparking new game can budge them, which doesn't bode well for today's duo...
The winner of predictions was Perkilator Perkilator with 5.00%

 

waddledeeonredyoshi

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Reflection of a reflection
Chance: 5%
Due to all the sheer collective energy from the gaming sphere that's behind him, Waluigi's is the only one of the Assist Trophied characters, I can still see in the running. He's pretty much the only character I can think of whose demand grew after his supposed deconfirmation. Being deconfirmed so early for the base game gave him an opportunity to build up enough momentum for Nintendo to notice and give him a second chance... in theory. In practice, yeah I'm pretty sure how demand for him exploded but they can just simply not care and go for FE character 9 or whatever. Honestly, Waluigi is one of those characters who suffers most from being too big to be last. While it does seem fitting for Waluigi to be the final one to some people, him still not being confirmed does not exactly bode well. It would make more sense for him to be revealed as early as possible or at least be the E3 character instead of Kazuya.

Want: 10%
I have preferred choices on how to end Volume 2. I'd smirk a bit maybe but my excitement level wouldn't be that high. I don't play a lot of Mario spin-offs and those I do, Waluigi isn't the character I pick most of the time. On the other hand, why not? He's iconic, wanted by millions, he deserves it. Just get it over with and rip the inverted L bandade off.


Isaac
Chance: 0%
That new Mario Golf pretty much dashed all hopes of Camelot working on a new Golden Sun. Nintendo basically lacks any reason to upgrade Isaac now. Even if the series is coming back at some point, it will likely be another outsourced project like the Advance Wars remake, something that isn't gonna be granted a spot on the roster and will be far too late for that anyway.

Want: Abstaining


Louie: 9.13%
Bandana Dee x15
 

subterrestrial

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99.9%
waluigi basically confirmed; why else would they not put him in the new mario golf spirit event?

1%
Issac (unfortunately) isnt happening
 

NessAtc.

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99.9%
waluigi basically confirmed; why else would they not put him in the new mario golf spirit event?

1%
Issac (unfortunately) isnt happening
They add costumes as spirits for characters all the time. Unless you expect Waluigi to be in his golfer outfit for his addition, there's no reason to exclude him from the event at all, even if he's a fighter. Waluigi himself has a second spirit of his Strikers design, so even he's had it, plus being part of the Standard Bike spirit. Him not being in this event is a testament to the lack of notoriety he has as far as Nintendo and Sakurai are concerned, and always has had.

Thus leading to my rating of 0%. There's no reason to add Super Rush content now, when 11's a month at least away and would be bringing Super Rush music anyway. You would do the Super Rush content then instead, when you can apply the new music to the spirits, and for a character like Waluigi who's lacking content to bring to the game, just randomly tossing that content away in an event does not seem logical at all.

Isaac, however, I'm going to give an 80%. And it's not even remotely because I'm biased.

In base game, there were two games/series that had music, but used redundant music in spirit battles. Those were Xenoblade 2 and Golden Sun. Xenoblade 2's redundancy was fixed with Fighter Pack 9.

In base game, ARMS oddly did not have any music whatsoever, despite stuff like Ever Oasis getting music. This evidently was setup for ARMS' DLC fighter further down the line, which was set in stone at the time of whenever music/etc was finalized, likely around August/September considering Octo Expansion content was present in the game. Golden Sun, while it did have music in base game, only had hold overs from Smash 4. They opted not to add even a rip of Isaac's own theme, when they added a rip of Zero's theme from MMZ (GBA fuzz perfectly intact, you can hear it). So they do have a tendency of adding music to go with fan demanded characters/assist trophies. Heck, one of the remixes from Metal Gear is from MG2, which is the first game you fight Gray Fox in, and Snake Eater got a remix to go with all of the MGS3 spirits within the game (and don't give me that they don't do older games, Yuyuki for example got a remix). It's extremely odd that they didn't add any additional music for Golden Sun, especially considering they also paid licensing for additional Culdcept music (two tracks on top of the remix from 4).

6/8 spirits use the same song from Golden Sun. At present, there is no other series with a varied amount of spirits that does this, and this is bizarre due to the obvious awareness of Isaac's demand, given the assist trophy and mii costume; not every assist trophy even got a mii added as well. Isaac's assist trophy also was changed with new moves added, which there is no other assist that they did for.

As well, ARMS, Xenoblade 2, and Golden Sun all had a prominence in the final november smash direct, and two of those ended up playable. At current rate, if pass 2's characters were determined in 2017-2018, any fan demanded character would still come from the ballot, since that's actually still the same range that Banjo was selected from. And Isaac was quite high up there.
 

subterrestrial

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I hope this is a troll.
nope its called differing opinions and I'd love to hear yours

They add costumes as spirits for characters all the time. Unless you expect Waluigi to be in his golfer outfit for his addition, there's no reason to exclude him from the event at all, even if he's a fighter. Waluigi himself has a second spirit of his Strikers design, so even he's had it, plus being part of the Standard Bike spirit. Him not being in this event is a testament to the lack of notoriety he has as far as Nintendo and Sakurai are concerned, and always has had.

Thus leading to my rating of 0%. There's no reason to add Super Rush content now, when 11's a month at least away and would be bringing Super Rush music anyway. You would do the Super Rush content then instead, when you can apply the new music to the spirits, and for a character like Waluigi who's lacking content to bring to the game, just randomly tossing that content away in an event does not seem logical at all.

Isaac, however, I'm going to give an 80%. And it's not even remotely because I'm biased.

In base game, there were two games/series that had music, but used redundant music in spirit battles. Those were Xenoblade 2 and Golden Sun. Xenoblade 2's redundancy was fixed with Fighter Pack 9.

In base game, ARMS oddly did not have any music whatsoever, despite stuff like Ever Oasis getting music. This evidently was setup for ARMS' DLC fighter further down the line, which was set in stone at the time of whenever music/etc was finalized, likely around August/September considering Octo Expansion content was present in the game. Golden Sun, while it did have music in base game, only had hold overs from Smash 4. They opted not to add even a rip of Isaac's own theme, when they added a rip of Zero's theme from MMZ (GBA fuzz perfectly intact, you can hear it). So they do have a tendency of adding music to go with fan demanded characters/assist trophies. Heck, one of the remixes from Metal Gear is from MG2, which is the first game you fight Gray Fox in, and Snake Eater got a remix to go with all of the MGS3 spirits within the game (and don't give me that they don't do older games, Yuyuki for example got a remix). It's extremely odd that they didn't add any additional music for Golden Sun, especially considering they also paid licensing for additional Culdcept music (two tracks on top of the remix from 4).

6/8 spirits use the same song from Golden Sun. At present, there is no other series with a varied amount of spirits that does this, and this is bizarre due to the obvious awareness of Isaac's demand, given the assist trophy and mii costume; not every assist trophy even got a mii added as well. Isaac's assist trophy also was changed with new moves added, which there is no other assist that they did for.

As well, ARMS, Xenoblade 2, and Golden Sun all had a prominence in the final november smash direct, and two of those ended up playable. At current rate, if pass 2's characters were determined in 2017-2018, any fan demanded character would still come from the ballot, since that's actually still the same range that Banjo was selected from. And Isaac was quite high up there.
There's no possible way for you to know Nintendo's or Sakurai's opinion on Waluigi, and idk why you'd assume they think he has a "lack of notoriety." Both Reggie and Doug Bowser officially addressed his exclusion when he was revealed to be an assist trophy. They didnt do that for literally any other fan-requested character. I think its safe to say Waluigi has the most fan demand out of ANY character at this point, especially now that Ridley and Krool are on the roster.

That's the type of hope and support I like to see tho ! it'd be really cool to see Isaac on the roster one day because he would have a rly unique playstyle. there's barely any mages overall we need more geomancers in smash tbh
 
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TCT~Phantom

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nope its called differing opinions and I'd love to hear yours



There's no possible way for you to know Nintendo's or Sakurai's opinion on Waluigi, and idk why you'd assume they think he has a "lack of notoriety." Both Reggie and Doug Bowser officially addressed his exclusion when he was revealed to be an assist trophy. They didnt do that for literally any other fan-requested character. I think its safe to say Waluigi has the most fan demand out of ANY character at this point, especially now that Ridley and Krool are on the roster.

That's the type of hope and support I like to see tho ! it'd be really cool to see Isaac on the roster one day because he would have a rly unique playstyle. there's barely any mages overall we need more geomancers in smash tbh
Let me dissect why your arguments do not make any sense.

First off, the reason they address this is because its a gimme question in interviews. Journalists know that Waluigi for Smash is a massive meme after that whole twitter outrage. And each time it is asked, the answer is always the same: something non committal as heck. Something that says that they might talk to Sakurai and he might put Waluigi in, but not something where Waluigi is a guarantee.

Furthermore, your argument on Waluigi being a lock because his spirit was not in the Mario golf spirit event makes no sense. Spirit events, save for the Tetris Spirit event, tend to have at most 4 spirits. And we got Mario, Luigi, and Peach. Three characters that are already in smash, that would make easy spirit events, and are much more important than Waluigi. Heck, there are plenty of other characters that in theory could have been the fourth spirit there, such as bowser.

You are basing your argument on this idea that Waluigi's support for smash is too big to fail. The problem is that Waluigi's support really only blossomed in Ultimate. In Sm4sh, Waluigi was not as popular as Paper Mario or Bowser Jr were. His support really grew around Ultimate, where he had less competition for the next Mario rep. We have seen fan favorites like Ridley, K Rool, and Banjo take years since their very vocal demand started, and they got in only now. Fan demand is not everything though. Geno and Shantae had loud, long standing fan demand, they ended up Miis.

Finally, you do not even address the elephant in the room: his AT. ATs will, until a character gets in based off of one, be a bad sign for a character getting in as DLC. Spirits at least even before Min Min had the precedent of trophies not deconfirming in Sm4sh. There is as of now no precedent for DLC ATs. Could Waluigi break that trend? Perhaps, but until that trend is broken it is a stain on his chances.



Now then, onto my ratings

Waluigi

10% Chance

Look, most of what I said above still stands for Waluigi. The fan demand is there, but I am worried that it might have come too late. We also have never gotten a first party rep that was added during DLC solely due to fan demand. First party picks, based off of the four we did get as DLC, are arguably moreso promotional picks more than anything. ATs still are a bad sign, and unless someone comes along to change that fact they are still going to be a bad sign.

Essentially, Waluigi's main selling point right now is his fan demand. Is his fan demand enough to overcome every single hurdle he faces and all the theoretical competition for CP11, which as far as we know is the last character? In my opinion, no way.

50% Want

I used to hate on Waluigi a lot more because I hate twitter. It is the worst. I hate the fact Waluigi basically gained a lot of support because twitter memed and whined when he was an AT. His support just felt so astroturfed I disliked him.

But at this point I just do not care. If he gets in, fine. I could care less. I know people that would be genuinely happy with him. But I am ambivalent at the end of the day. Sure, the fact that the support for the character felt astroturfed and artificial might annoy me, but at this point I am just so exhausted by Smash Speculation I honestly do not care. If it is a final character that would make people not be intolerably obnoxious, fine.

Isaac

15% Chance

If Golden Sun was an active franchise I would consider him more likely. Isaac has an extremely dedicated fanbase that has been around a long time. Many of the Brawl era fan favorites either are already in or their support shrank over the past 10+ years. Isaac alongside Geno are basically the only Brawl era big names left in Speculation that still have a big draw. Isaac's fan demand I put a good bit of stock into because of this. While Nintendo has historically had their finger on the pulse of what fans would like for Smash, they are not perfect. You always have your Mega Mans, Ridleys, or Warios where the obvious fan favorite just missed the cut for a game. I could see that Nintendo would consider adding Isaac due to this fan demand while still ending the pass on a smaller character.

GoodGrief741 GoodGrief741 did help sell me on the fact that Isaac would make sense for last. If Nintendo wants to end on a fan favorite, he is a solid choice. He also is hands down the single most niche character this pass, given his series is well...dormant.

So yeah, Golden Sun is currently dormant. Honestly, I have no hope in Camelot continuing the series. But that does not mean I have no faith in Nintendo doing something with it. Advance Wars got a remake made by WayForward, so I can easily see Golden Sun getting the same treatment. It also helps that the Golden Sun trademark got renewed. Granted, this could just be Nintendo ensuring they keep the trademark in order, but I would not be surpriseed if Nintendo announced a Golden Sun remaster of sorts made for the Switch.

If any character does end up beating the AT deconfirmation rule, I would say Isaac is the best choice. While ATs are not a good sign, I personally do not think they are a death knell. Isaac has the historic fan demand to do so, and if Nintendo wished to revive Golden Sun I could easily see it.

100% Want

Isaac fans can sometimes be...jaded. While I certainly do roll my eyes when Isaac fans go doomsday over Golden Sun every direct or when someone says that Isaac is unlikely, I can at least get it. They have been in the speculation game for a while now. Ever since Brawl, people were speculating that each new game was Isaac's time to shine. GS did great before Brawl, he did not make it. Dark Dawn came out before the planning stages, still no Golden Sun. In Ultimate, the big Smash fanservice game, Isaac...returned as an AT after not appearing in 4. Isaac has had a raw deal.

It also helps that I do enjoy Golden Sun. Is it an amazing RPG that ranks among my favorites? Well, not really. It is probably the best JRPG on the GBA when linked up with TLA, but its no Persona 5, Trails of Cold Steel, Xenogears, or TWEWY for me. Its pretty good though. It is charming and truly makes the most out of the GBA.

I also just think Isaac would be a blast to play as. I am a sucker for mages, and Isaac using geomancy, move, and other spells would be fun to see.

But perhaps most of all, I would like the final character to be one I would personally like to see. I am not the biggest Isaac fan. He is not in my top five most wanted characters, he might not even be in my top ten. Heck, he is no longer my most wanted first party even after Officer Howard seized that crown. But if Isaac was last, I would be...content. Ultimate was already kind to me. I got Snake, Wolf, Pokemon Trainer, Pichu, Squirtle, Ice Climbers, No Cuts, Ridley, K Rool, Dark Samus, Chrom, Belmonts, Joker, Banjo, Sephiroth, and the Aegis (I wanted Rex but XC2 getting in makes me happy). I got a lot of stuff I wanted in this game. I got stuff I did not want initially that I was very happy with like Terry, Hero, Steve, or Kazuya. Ultimate has been very kind to me. I would love one more character that would blow me away though. One that I could just smile when they get in. Isaac would do that for me.

Nominating Kiryu rerate x 20
 

NessAtc.

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If any character does end up beating the AT deconfirmation rule, I would say Isaac is the best choice. While ATs are not a good sign, I personally do not think they are a death knell. Isaac has the historic fan demand to do so, and if Nintendo wished to revive Golden Sun I could easily see it.
There is no "rule". Sakurai left the decision of the ARMS character up to Yabuki. What would have happened if Yabuki said Spring Man worked the best? Would the universe have imploded?

I've also never understood why an assist trophy is worse than a mii or a spirit. Shouldn't that mean that the demand was known enough to make the assist, thus elevating the character for becoming a fighter? Isaac got both a spirit and a mii, too, so to get all three is quite special indeed. There aren't a lot of characters that can claim to have that, actually.

From what I understood, the crux of the assist trophy debacle was the crossover between fighter and assist causing confusion during play. Setting aside whether they even care about that when deciding on a character, we've gotten a few ats turned mii already, and Bomberman's mii is basically indistinguishable at a distance from his AT. There's only minor proportion differences. If miis don't already cause enough confusion for concern, a fighter shouldn't either, never mind that they can also turn off assist spawns.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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nope its called differing opinions and I'd love to hear yours
Nah it's called breaking the rules of the format, you need a minimum of sentences and both a chance and want score if you want your rating to count.

Also I did some calcs for ****s and giggles and the ****ing 80% chance rating almost doubles the average Isaac's chance rating is now lmao
 

NessAtc.

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Also I did some calcs for ****s and giggles and the ****ing 80% chance rating almost doubles the average Isaac's chance rating is now lmao
I'm dead serious about it, too. I don't want anyone thinking I'm inflating it due to bias or anything. I'm 100% serious here.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I'm dead serious about it, too. I don't want anyone thinking I'm inflating it due to bias or anything. I'm 100% serious here.
Considering how rare these levels of ratings are there's 0% chance you're not biased but it's just a forum game so nobody should give you **** for this, though I must say, if this was for Reimu, Sakura or Saber I can think of a few who'd absolutely lose their **** at an 80% chance rating lmao
 

NessAtc.

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Considering how rare these levels of ratings are there's 0% chance you're not biased but it's just a forum game so nobody should give you ** for this, though I must say, if this was for Reimu, Sakura or Saber I can think of a few who'd absolutely lose their ** at an 80% chance rating lmao
I find they're only rare because people take this, as you say, forum game way too seriously. Nobody wants to do those high numbers because they're afraid of flack, or they're afraid they're being unfair, etc.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I find they're only rare because people take this, as you say, forum game way too seriously. Nobody wants to do those high numbers because they're afraid of flack, or they're afraid they're being unfair, etc.
The opposite is also true tbf, like, last time Isaac got rated, one Isaac fan in particular went ballistic because chance ratings were way too low for his liking, screaming that people were only giving low scores because they hate Isaac and Golden Sun, the dude only stopped after multiple people pointed out the want scores being very high on average, stuff like that really gives me secondhand embarassment for any fanbase lmao
 

2006ToyotaTacoma

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It is Waluigi Hours, my dudes

Chance: 10%
At this point, Waluigi is the only character I can reasonably see crossing the AT hurdle due to his sheer fan demand. And we're not talking your average Geno or Isaac fanbase, we're talking a post-AT reveal outcry that got attention from mainline news websites dangit.

That said, that's really the only thing going for him at this point. He doesn't promote any new games (and the newest one he could've promoted just got a spirit event), Mario and it's spinoffs are already well represented, etc, etc. Other than fan demand I don't see much going for the guy, and even then that sheer fan demand came pretty late in the game, maybe too late for DLC.

Want: 30% I've seen concepts that have left me intrigued about the possibility of Waluigi in Smash, but that said I'm not very down for him: I'd rather have King Boo or Toad for another Mario rep, I'd MUCH rather have a new series represented for the final character, and I especially am not fond of his fanbase right now, and haven't been for a while.


Isaac Clarke (wait... it's not Dead Space man?)

Chance: 0.5%
Like I said before, Waluigi is the only character I can see jumping the AT hurdle with his fan demand, and Isaac unfortunately is no where close to matching Waluigi in terms of demand. Not only that but Golden Sun's extremely dormant right now, if not borderline dead as a franchise, and with no Golden Sun game on the horizon I extremely doubt Isaac's gonna be able to make the hurdle to a playable status.

Want: 20% I have no connection nor history with Golden Sun as a franchise and I quite frankly do not care if they don't get in. There's a veritable mountain of characters I'd like to see get in before Isaac.


Louie: 4%
 
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Sari

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The Camelot character that recently had a new game which was hinted at because of a trademark

Chance: Abstain
I'm just going to abstain on the chance score because I really don't feel like arguing about AT's. I'll just say that I doubt we'll be getting an AT promotion at this point. It's pretty clear at this point that Nintendo wants to prioritize DLC for third parties and first party promotional picks, neither of which Waluigi would really fall under. But then again, he's super popular and is always relevant so who knows.

The only other thing I'll say is that I don't think the recent Mario Golf spirit event automatically kills Waluigi's chances. They were never going to use a whole character slot to promote a Mario sports game so it's ridiculous to think that the only chance Waluigi had left hinged on that. Plus Waluigi has the entirety of the Mario spin-off series to work with when it comes to content.

Want: 100%
He's a loser, a weirdo, and everything about him is just stupid,... and I freaking love him. Waluigi is really overdue to appear in Smash with how popular he is and how many times he's gotten shafted for Smash in the past. I know he has some overly annoying fans but that shouldn't take away with how charming of a character he is. Plus I really love the Mario spin-off games and I think Waluigi would be the best character to represent them.

-----

Abstaining on Isaac

-----

Louie chance prediction: 6.00%

Nominations:
Concept: Rhythm Heaven rep x25
 
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WeirdChillFever

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Waluigi Chance: 20%
Nintendo is already using him to promote things, plus the outrage being at E3 rather than in a ballot means that he might stand out a bit more. What hinders him is that he’s a bit of a Mario character and considering the focus on new and unrepresented series a Mario character would be a bit of a stretch. It’s also hard to judge the amount of promotion he gets as a result of them being aware of his Smash popularity or as a result of him hailing from one of the more selling series and of course it’s also possible any content of Waluigi gets championed and echoed more by the fanbase. I do have a hunch that Waluigi’s promotion is creeping towards something.

Want: 100%
yeah gimme a mario character. is this a valid, two sentence reason? no, but my biggest Smash 4 most wanted was “A Mario character” and that wish hasn’t gone away four characters later. (Although that has turned it a bit more into a guilty pleasure rather than a reasonable request.)

Isaac Chance: 20%
Golden Sun would be a new series to Smash if we’re talking playable representation, and the content it does have feels a lot like the content ARMS got. Golden Sun is a bit of a black box when it comes to Nintendo, in that we don’t know how much Nintendo cares for it or knows that we care about it aside from a potentially high ballot placement. This gives Isaac more middle-of-the-pack vibes between other ballot bighitters like Dixie and Bandana Dee. He does have a double-edged sword over those characters: His series would be unrepped in playables so the content he comes with could be more robust and less fill-in-the-gaps. NessAlt also gave a theory that I liked if nothing else so I added 5% to my rating for articulating that hunch I have.

Isaac Want: 70%
To the meme connoisseurs among us (oops), sometimes I wish they would indeed shut up about The Sun since like, a solid seventy percent of the contexts I hear the series in revolve around “Oh at least you’ve had a game in the last decade” when someone makes a request for say, a new Captain Toad game but was unfortunate in saying that ”it has been a while”. This Rube Goldberg ratrace of dead series’ fanbases is annoying, but it doesn’t mean I’m not endeared to the underdog character that uses earthbending and its rocking fanbase. (and hey, I’m rocking a Daisy profile pic, I’d be the last person to dislike a character because of the fanbase) I think he’d be a grrrreat choice as potentially the Nintendo character with the most moveset potential but am a bit wary about the K. Rool of it all where a character brimming with potential gets shackled to an unfortunate gimmick and (in hindsight quite obviously) plays nothing like our dreams.

Noms go to Off The Hook

Louie: 2.87%
 

Lyncario

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I've already explained multiple times why I think ATs don't have a chance, so I'm goikg to abstain for today, especialy for a character that annoys me as much as Waluigi, especialy since I'm on phone right now.

Nominations go to the currently ranked number 15 on the nominations ranking.

Predictions:
Louie: 0.5%
 
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Sari

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Day over.

Rate Louie from Pikmin.

Predict Octoling from Splatoon.

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Some songs to get into the Pikmin mood:

 

DrifloonEmpire

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Louie, King of Bugs

Chance: 5% -
As much of a Pikmin fan as I am, I must say with a heavy heart that the series isn't in a goos spot right now. While its' most recent game, the spinoff Hay! Pikmin, got some representation in the form of four songs and a couple of spirits, Pikmin 4 is still completely left in the dark (though if we've learned anything from Pikmin 3, it's that if we give it time, it will eventually come). It also had little fan demand and is often made fun of by the Smash fanbase. With only six spots left, there's a lot of heavy first party competition, so I really can't see Louie being high priority.

However, there are rumors of a Pikmin 3 Deluxe, and Louie was in the game, so if they wanted to promote it (especially since there's little else this year. Remember, they promoted Clubhouse Games of all things), they could very well add Louie to the game, whether he be an Olimar semiclone or his own thing. Plus Pikmin has plenty of content that could easily make up a challenger pack, and even if Louie is a semiclone, there's plenty of Pikmin 2 specific mechanics they could add to him such as the spicy and bitter sprays. I know a lot of people would predict a summoner moveset representing the series' vast bestiary (which more than doubled in Pikmin 2, Louie's debut game) but aside from potentially a Swooping/Bumbling Snitchbug recovery, it probably wont happen. Even if Louie was speculated to be controlling the Titan Dweevil (it'd make a fantastic final smash if they don't re-use Olimar's), he still battles against all of these creatures, along with making complex recipes for cooking them into delicious meals, so it'd be a little odd, as cool as it would be. Sakurai likes to stay as true as possible to how a character plays in their own game, and Louie's no summoner in Pikmin 2 or 3.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Pikmin franchise is Miyamoto's passion project, so he could get Louie in as a special request. ARMS was a special request from Nintendo, and remember that a Miyamoto request was one of the factors that got us Pac Man instead of Heihachi.


Want: 100%++ - By far my most wanted first party character, and my favorite character in the series, I would be ecstatic if Louie made the roster! Pikmin deserves a second rep, especially given how much it is ignored by Smash developers. I know a lot of people would just say to make Alph an echo, but Louie is overall more significant to the franchise, and to the contrary of what people say, Pikmin does not have very good or balanced representation at all. Pikmin 1 has a stage, character, and a decent amount of music (though admittingly, Distant Planet uses Awakening Wood's backdrop despite more than likely being intended to be Pikmin 1's Forest of Hope), and plenty of spirits. Pikmin 3 has the same, a half character, a decent music selection, and plenty of spirits.

On a side note, Pikmin really needs more music in Smash. In fact, the series has SEVERAL battle tracks, all of which Smash ignores for some reason.

Pikmin 2, meanwhile, only has a song and a couple of spirits, despite being considered the best in the franchise by most fans. The one upside to this, however, is that there is a TON of content that could make up a fantastic challenger pack!

Stage: Treasure Caverns

One of the big selling points of Pikmin 2 is the spelunking in randomly-generated caves with many sublevels, which greatly extends the playtime of the game in a fun way, and adds a lot of unique areas to explore. This stage would embody what Pikmin 2 contributes to the series, and would start on the surface (with a brief glimpse of one of Pikmin 2's four overworld areas: Awakening Wood, Perplexing Pool, Valley of Repose, and Wistful Wild), before descending into the cave. It would be a transforming stage akin to Castle Seige, and every few minutes the cave would transport the characters to a different sublevel. The sublevels would come in various styles pulled straight from the game, and would each contain different creatures to serve as hazards, a fantastic way to represent the diverse wildlife of the Pikmin franchise (in contrast to the existing stages, which use primarily just the basic Red Bulborb and in Garden of Hope's case, the Peckish Aristacrab.) Much like most assist trophies, all creatures can be damaged and destroyed by fighters.


Dirt: The most basic sublevel, has little in the way of pits and dangers. Sheargrubs will occasionally pop up from the floor, and Creeping Crysanthemums will occasionally walk into the foreground to take a bite out of the fighters. There's also the chance of Armored Cannon Beetle Larvae appearing in the background, both the normal and decorated varieties. They fire boulders into the foreground, the ones from the decorated bettles curving towards any character wearing metal.

Concrete with Water: Wogpoles occasionally fall from above to act as small, bouncing obstacles, with both varieties of Wollywogs occasionally jumping in from the background to try and land on the fighters. Their attacks temporarily bury fighters akin to Donkey Kong's Side B, along with causing some damage.

Tile Lands: Hermit Crawmads and Jellyfloats are the order of the day! The Jellyfloats will attempt to suck up fighters and carry them off screen, and fighters can resist if trapped. Hermit Crawmads will watch for grounded fighters and occasionally lunge out at them to damage them.

Graphite Gulch: Metal platforms above a bottomless pit, electricity and explosions are common. Gatling Groinks fire from the background, while anode beetles appear occasionally to send electric blasts. Careening Dirigibugs will appear occasionally and drop bomb rocks onto the stage. These are the size of Electrode and can be picked up and thrown by fighters.

Grassy Yards: Representing the bizzare yard-esque cavern sublevels, Orange Bulborbs can be encountered here, and will wake easily if the fighters make too much noise. Cloaking Burrow-nits will occasionally appear as well to try and take a stab at the fighters.

There's also several other sublevel types like Snow and Toybox, but this should get the idea across! A super fun and varied stage that really shows off some of the cool elements of the franchise, along with being very faithful to Pikmin 2!


Music:

Pikmin 2 is VERY lacking in musical representation, and this would be a good opportunity to add some of the battle tracks mentioned earlier, along with a general balance to the series' music selection! Any of these examples can be straight rips or remixes, but these would be some great choices for the game. And it's all first party, so they can include a lot!

Louie's Victory Theme: End of Day (Great) - Pikmin 2

Wistful Wild
Piklopedia
Awakening Wood
Boss Battle (Pikmin 2) (The music changes dynamically based on the boss' activity)
Graphite Gulch
Perplexing Pool
Bulblax Kingdom
Shower Room
Giant Breadbug
Waterwraith Attack (Could be a remix, mixed with Waterwraith's Pathetic Escape)
Titan Dweevil
Got Key!
Hot House
Dweevil's Dugout
Tropical Wilds
Plasm Wraith


Spirits:

Pikmin 2 has the least spirits of the three main-series entries but generally fares better than the other departments. Still, there's so much in Pikmin 2 to pull from, and would be another way to represent all of the cool creatures it adds!

President of the Hocotate Freight - Honestly surprised this spirit isn't in the game already. He's a major character in Pikmin 2, has plenty of official art to pull from, and is even playable! He's the only one of the series' six captains to not have a spirit in the base game.

Gatling Groink - Opponent is Orange Snake on a static Graphite Gulch (Treasure Caverns). Explosives spawn more often and Snake stars with a back shield. Enemy prefers Up B, and said Up B would have increased horizontal movement (emulates the projectile behavior of the Gatling Groink, plus semi-emulates the protective windshield it has.


Titan Dweevil - Opponent is Giant Louie on a static Tile Lands (Treasure Caverns) with hazards disabled. Enemy starts with a final smash and charges them quickly.

Giant Breadbug - Opponent is Big Brown King K. Rool, enemy is attracted to items but avoids attacking the player. Enemy can only be damaged by items. Food spawns frequently and enemy has increased healing from food.

Waterwraith - Opponent is Big Light Blue Inkling on Static Concrete with Water (Treasure Caverns). The enemy will constantly chase the player and will only use Side Special. Pow Blocks spawn after a minute. Enemy stays stunned for 30 seconds and can only be damaged when stunned.

Segmented Crawbster - Opponent is Big Sonic, the enemy loves Side Specials. Enemy starts with a Death's Scythe.

Ranging Bloyster - opponent is Big Pink Yoshi on static Tile Lands (Treasure Caverns). Enemy prefers to use its' neutral special.

Man-At-Legs - Opponent is Giant Samus static Graphite Gulch (Treasure Caverns). Enemy loves all specials and beam-based moves do extra damage. Enemy starts with a Super Scope.

Pileated Snagret - Opponent is Green Giant Falco on Garden of Hope. Pitfalls spawn frequently, along with hostile Burrowing Snagret assist trophies.

Fiery Bulblax - Opponent is Orange King K. Rool on Distant Planet. Opponent is constantly under the effects of the Super Spicy Curry.


And there we have it, an entire challenger pack based around Louie and Pikmin 2 as a whole! While this could all very well be a pipe dream, this would perfectly round out the representation for the Pikmin franchise and would make a lot of fans of the series very happy! Furthermore, I hope this shows the community just how much Pikmin has to offer, especially due to common stereotypes like ("Oh just a funny space man with plants" or "lol environmental noises"). There is so much to enjoy about this franchise if one just gives it a try! (anime-esque series like Persona aren't the only ones who are allowed to say this). In fact, I hope this helps the series' reputation with the community as a whole! When it comes to niche Nintendo franchises, it doesn't have the Earthbound popularity or the F-Zero sympathy, it's just in a kind of middle ground that people vent on. I know a lot of people want Porky, but I believe that Pikmin should get a second rep before Earthbound gets a third (especially since it has nearly double the representation Pikmin has), So I hope this shows people the merits of the franchise, and I hope it inspires some of you guys to give it a try!

Gonna quote my previous Louie rating from last year since it already has most of what I want to say, including concepts for a entirely Pikmin 2-themed challenger pack! Still, there are a few good reasons why I decided to nominate Louie to be rerated.

Louie

Chance: 10% -
First of all, we're in the final slot, and a promotional Nintendo pick or a Nintendo pick in general always manages to grab it, and I think Louie is a slept on possibility. On our previous rating day for Louie, the biggest reason cited against him was Pikmin's uncertain future. At the time it had been five years since Hey! Pikmin, with no Pikmin 4 in sight beyond a few mentions from Miyamoto. But now? Pikmin 3 Deluxe sold over 2 million copies in just a few months, making it the fastest and best-selling Pikmin game of all time, and has surpassed other Nintendo games in rising star franchises, most notably Xenoblade 2. And it's only a matter of time before Three Houses is surpassed by Three Koppaites. Alongside that, Pikmin's been getting brand new merchandise, and Nintendo was marketing the game pretty heavily (several of my friends, who have no Pikmin content in their watch history, were even seeing ads for it on Youtube). We also have a mobile game coming, made by Niantic no less! You know, who were commissioned to make the new super success Pokemon Go? They chose Pikmin of all franchises, which shows NIntendo wwants to grow the brand!

Still, there are plenty of factors in Louie's way as well. We're on the final character slot, so everyone's chances go down, and I have a hard time giving Louie more than a 10% for that reason. Furthermore, Pikmin 3 Deluxe's success happened long after the pass was chosen. It's possible that Nintendo saved a "wild card" slot at the end (since Sakurai's team would start work on it last) and could've filled it in with Louie, or maybe that they had planned it in advance. But that's really just wishful thinking. Furthermore, there's little fan demand for Louie (which is a d*** shame), so that doesn't help matters. Still, I think Louie, and Pikmin in general, are slept on, and the King of Bugs could very well sneak in and take the invitation!

And if you think a character with the possibility of being a semi clone is a no go, just look at the character (who will NO DOUBT get high ratings) we're rating tomorrow!

Want: 100%++ - Summarized from the detailed quoted post, but Louie is one of my most wanted characters, and probably by far my most wanted first party. Pikmin 2, Louie's debut game, is one of my favorite games of all time, and Louie was a fantastic character, from his odd behavior to his excellent recipe write-ups! Furthermore, Pikmin 2 in general could use more content in Smash, it has a couple of spirits and 1.5 songs, which isn't very much, especially compared to 1 and 3 (and FOUR songs from Hey! Pikmin that Ultimate added for some reason). A challenger pack themed around Pikmin 2 would do a ton to alleviate that, and would be the perfect way to round out the franchise's representation! Pikmin 2 has tons of fantastic environments that would make for an incredible stage, and it brings with it tons of great music as well! And It's all in the quoted post, there's so much that this challenger pack would bring to the table! It's not just the fighter that makes a pack worth it, and I think Louie would be a fantastic addition that would be extremely meaningful to me!


Nominations:
DJ Octavio x10

Predictions:
Octoling - 23.82% - Splatoon 3 aside, any character from this franchise tends to get higher ratings than it should due to popularity. Though I can see some cautious ratings as well, given that Splatoon 3 doesn't release until sometime next year, so it doesn't hit the promotional window.
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
22,656
Location
Scotland
mr bankruptcy himself

chances: 0% i just dont see any reason why it would be him. even if there was such a thing as shill picks why would it be him? why would they use him to promote pikmin 3 and not one of the three main characters? louie has nothing going for him, barely any fan demand, nothing that separates him from olimar, nothing that puts him ahead of the other pikmin characters. now i seem to recall there was this idea where louie could command enemy characters that was floating about last time we rated him. a concept based of the idea that maybe he was controlling the titian dweevil, of course this would require a certain degree of creative liberties and there is precedent for this just look at the entire roster. but would sakurai do this? yes he clearly doesnt care about things making sense. but thats hypothetical we have no reason to believe sakurai would even consider such an idea. i just dont see it.

want: 0% he's the worst. in the two games hes been in he done nothing but cause trouble. from bankrupting his employers on his first mission, to potentially attacking others with the titian dweevil to stealing food and ditching alph and co after the saved his life. louie is a self centred little twerp who doesnt care about what damage his actions would cuase. its not even proper evil his just a wario with a lot less character.

noms to spirit events continue after pass
 

waddledeeonredyoshi

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
1,536
Location
Drenthe, NL
Laeiou
Chance: 0.1%
While it's true that Nintendo has been giving Pikmin some attention again recently, it likely won't amount to the series receiving any Smash promotion. Pixmin 3 deluxe released about a year after Vol 2's planning and it's iffy if Nintendo would go that far for a rerelease. More importantly is that I just don't see the potential. Fighter wise I don't see them viewing Louie as more than echo-fighte material, which aren't happening and thus won't be chosen. I know about the "King of bugs" concept but that would likely stay a fan-concept since whenever Louie is playable he plays identical to Olimar. Perhaps Sakurai could take creative liberty with the idea but it would require Nintendo choosing Louie in the first place, which I don't think they will. There are relatively few people clambering for more Pikmin content and you could argue it's represented good enough for the series' size. It lacks a bit in the music department but this arguably applies to many series also. Pikmin 2 might not have a stage but they aren't going to look back at that game just to appeal to its fans. Pikmin 3 deluxe is the latest game and that conveniently already has a stage. In short, Pikmin isn't in a favorable spot to be promoted and Louie likely isn't popular or original enough to be greenlit by Nintendo.

Want: 1%
I'll pass on him. I like me some Pikmin but Louie just isn't interesting to me, wether he'd have a unique moveset or not. He's the comic-relief I think, and the one who actually sets Pikmin 2's plot in motion and that's neat and all but I still desire several other characters Pikmin 2's representation kinda blows and I would appreciate more but it's no Modern Kirby. If there's not more Pikmin content coming, I'll still sleep at night.

Octoling: 16.16%
Bandana Dee x10
 
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