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Rate Their Chances - Smash Ultimate Edition! Day 672: Five Most Likely First and Third Parties for Smash 6, and Final Goodbyes

Pillow

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I don't understand this Chun Li talk came from, I mean the rumor involving her says that she's replaced by Ken and that's it, there's no line of text that say "Nintendo is reconsidering their decision to put her in" or anything like that afaik and suddenly everyone thinks she's next in the line up?
Even outside of that specific rumor, Sephiroth's reveal opened the door for secondary characters from existing 3rd party franchises to arrive in Smash. It's the same reason that people are also talking about another Sonic character recently. Regardless of whether you think she's coming or not, Chun-Li is just a massively well known and popular character that warrants discussion based on her own merits.
 

SharkLord

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I don't understand this Chun Li talk came from, I mean the rumor involving her says that she's replaced by Ken and that's it, there's no line of text that say "Nintendo is reconsidering their decision to put her in" or anything like that afaik and suddenly everyone thinks she's next in the line up?
It's also partially because of Sephiroth officially opening up the door for "repeat" third-party series, and Chun-Li fans pounced on the double-whammy opportunities to plug their most-wanted. It's basic Smash fan instinct; I can confirm that I jumped at the chance to push Adol when teh Falcom leak got a second wave of attention.

Though, I do think Chun-Li, Eggman, and the like are going to experience the pitfall of Smash not staying on the new precedents they set. Every time we a new fighter is added, precedents are broken, people start looking at similar characters, and the next fighter breaks a different precedent and going in a different direction, which speculators latch on to and look for characters who would fit the new precedent, only for yet another precedent to be broken the next time around., rinse and repeat. Not sure we'll get another repeat third-party like everyone is thinking, at least not for CP9.
 

7NATOR

Smash Master
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4,089
If we get another Street Fighter character it will be Chun-Li. I heard your reasons for it the other day but no, there's no other Street Fighter character that comes close to the notoriety or significance of the co-star of the series. Chun-Li's impact and cultural relevance is pretty much equivalent to Ryu's, there's really no other choice or reason to add another SF character in the first place if not to add arguably the biggest character still missing from Smash.

I know we're not presenting opinions with the intention of getting critique but like, there's no reason to believe it wouldn't be Chun-Li.
So the character I had in Mind was Akuma

Now I know Chun-Li is the Co-Mascot, and I'd actually agree she's probably a bigger character

I don't think that she's Head and Heel above some characters like you might suggest

I'd Argue Akuma, M.Bison, Ken (who's In), and maybe Guile and Zangief and Blanka are up there in Noterity also

-Ken has been in every Street Fighter Game with Ryu, unlike Chun-Li
-M. Bison is the Main Villain for a good amount of the Street Fighter games, Including SF2, the Most Popular SF, as well as the most recent one in SF5, as well as the Movie. He also has that Legendary Dictator look
-Guile has his Theme, as well as his turtling playstyle, Zangief (along with Bison) was in the Wreck it Ralph movie, and Blanka as his Design that's very noticable

In Akuma's Case, He's actually the only character that's been able to stand on his Own, Which is Something not even characters like Sephiroth have been able to do. Akuma was the Only SF character in X-Men, Children of the atom (and was basically the reason for MVC), and He's also the only SF Character in Tekken 7. He's also the character people think of when People think of Secret Bosses, though I believe Reptile from Mortal Kombat came before Akuma

Chun-Li had the Movie, that people did not like, but In regards to games she's hasn't been on her own. She has Appeared I believe almost every Crossover Ryu shows up in, so that's something she has above the other characters

So I don't think it's as Cut and Dry as you might make it seem, but I do say Chun-Li probably has more merit. I just personally think she won't be chosen. It's really just a feeling on my part, and I might still go back to predicting Scorpion. I don't know
 

JOJONumber691

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 28, 2020
Messages
1,791
Luigi debuted in 64 as a quick clone, and Sakurai in general dislikes decloning people. That's different from how the Summoner would be, as DLC aren't Echo Fighters, and they couldn't feasibly make an Echo situation work with any FE character because the Summoner has a gun and none of the FE Lords or Avatars have one. Either way, if they silhouettes still mattered that much, then why isn't Byleth an Echo of Marth, Roy, or Ike?
And honestly, I don't think anything will beat redoing every stage just to make Steve's gimmick work. Even then, they don't need to make a perfect 1-to-1 translation, either. Min Min's punches are shorter than in ARMS, Hero doesn't get MP back with normal attacks in Dragon Quest, and Steve doesn't create every tool at once from a single piece of material. If Heroes' gameplay is too complicated to cram into a single moveset, there's nothing that says they can't abridge it to make it work in a fighting game.
The Gun could make something unique, but there's some leeway sure, but Byleth also stands completely differently from Marth and Ike. Standing with the Sword behind them. Summoner's Sihloette would be too similar to Robin to justify it. No Sword and Gun isn't enough, because everything else besides Color would be the same as Robin. Thus why Summoner wouldn't work, ontop of the Budget. Heroes works in a way that requires you to make 80 Models for One Character, on top of Voice Acting. Yeah I'm sorry Kiran ain't happening.
 

Pillow

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So the character I had in Mind was Akuma

Now I know Chun-Li is the Co-Mascot, and I'd actually agree she's probably a bigger character

I don't think that she's Head and Heel above some characters like you might suggest

I'd Argue Akuma, M.Bison, Ken (who's In), and maybe Guile and Zangief and Blanka are up there in Noterity also

-Ken has been in every Street Fighter Game with Ryu, unlike Chun-Li
-M. Bison is the Main Villain for a good amount of the Street Fighter games, Including SF2, the Most Popular SF, as well as the most recent one in SF5, as well as the Movie. He also has that Legendary Dictator look
-Guile has his Theme, as well as his turtling playstyle, Zangief (along with Bison) was in the Wreck it Ralph movie, and Blanka as his Design that's very noticable

In Akuma's Case, He's actually the only character that's been able to stand on his Own, Which is Something not even characters like Sephiroth have been able to do. Akuma was the Only SF character in X-Men, Children of the atom (and was basically the reason for MVC), and He's also the only SF Character in Tekken 7. He's also the character people think of when People think of Secret Bosses, though I believe Reptile from Mortal Kombat came before Akuma

Chun-Li had the Movie, that people did not like, but In regards to games she's hasn't been on her own. She has Appeared I believe almost every Crossover Ryu shows up in, so that's something she has above the other characters

So I don't think it's as Cut and Dry as you might make it seem, but I do say Chun-Li probably has more merit. I just personally think she won't be chosen. It's really just a feeling on my part, and I might still go back to predicting Scorpion. I don't know
I agree that all those other characters are notable within the gaming community, but Chun-Li is the only Street Fighter character that's really notable outside even gaming circles (moreso than even Ryu). Her number of appearances isn't really a factor here, she's just super well known. The movie is a symptom, not a cause. She's the only one with a Nikki Minaj song.

Personally, I don't think we are getting another SF character, but if we do I'd also bet my life on Chun-Li. I think it is that cut and dry. Akuma also has the issue that he's pretty similar to Ryu/Ken in terms of his playstyle, and Sakurai really enjoys making DLC characters as unique as possible. Chun-Li would use the SF special input mechanic, but at least she's not a shoto.
 

SharkLord

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The Gun could make something unique, but there's some leeway sure, but Byleth also stands completely differently from Marth and Ike. Standing with the Sword behind them. Summoner's Sihloette would be too similar to Robin to justify it. No Sword and Gun isn't enough, because everything else besides Color would be the same as Robin. Thus why Summoner wouldn't work, ontop of the Budget. Heroes works in a way that requires you to make 80 Models for One Character, on top of Voice Acting. Yeah I'm sorry Kiran ain't happening.
If the way you hold a sword is enough difference, then holding a gun is going to be different from holding a sword and/or a book. Aside from that, the Summoner is generally shown with their hood up; Robin keeps their hood off in Smash, so you can easily tell the difference.
Aside from that, color still plays a pretty decent role. Depending on how far away they are from the screen, some people just remember "I'm the red guy with the blue arrow above my head" and look for that in times of chaos. Color palette isn't something to be ignored.

And the Summoner doesn't need eighty different models, that's preposterous. Steve didn't need every single block and item in Minecraft, Cloud didn't need every Limit Break, Joker didn't need every Persona, etc. Fighters don't need every tiny little detail from their home game, just enough to accurately represent it. The Summoner would be fine with just six-ten characters; Heck, if we're being really conservative we'd be fine just limiting it to four characters for the different unit colors, or the five secondary Lords from the different books.
None of them need new lines either, seeing as they can just reuse the ones from Heroes; heck, Black Knight and Tiki(?) already do so. Even if they're just ATs, we already have an instance of reused voice clips in fighters with Chrom.

I hate the term "fan rule," but honestly, that's what you're using right now. Arbitrary requirements that have already been disproven in multiple instances and have to be stretched just to make sense. I don't think the Summoner is very likely, but not because of these shallow "obstacles".
 

7NATOR

Smash Master
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4,089
I agree that all those other characters are notable within the gaming community, but Chun-Li is the only Street Fighter character that's really notable outside even gaming circles (moreso than even Ryu). Her number of appearances isn't really a factor here, she's just super well known. The movie is a symptom, not a cause. She's the only one with a Nikki Minaj song.

Personally, I don't think we are getting another SF character, but if we do I'd also bet my life on Chun-Li. I think it is that cut and dry. Akuma also has the issue that he's pretty similar to Ryu/Ken in terms of his playstyle, and Sakurai really enjoys making DLC characters as unique as possible. Chun-Li would use the SF special input mechanic, but at least she's not a shoto.
-I thought alot of the Characters in SF2 was notable outside of Gaming circles though. That's why I mentioned stuff like the Movie, where M.Bison was the Main villain and stuff like that. I've also seen people on my Mom's Facebook post videos with Guile's theme and everything. I'm not entirely sure Chun-Li is the only character that's notable outside of Gaming circles

-I'm also not even sure if she's more Notable than Ryu. I mean I could believe it, and it is true she is the only one with a Nicki Minaj song, but that is quite a statement. I will say perhaps her design is more Notable, because Ryu does look like just a Karate man, but on the other side, he is probably THE Karate man of media, besides Bruce Lee

-I'm also with you that I do think there might be a Problem of Akuma's Similarities to Ryu/Ken. With him I think they might play into the Boss thing, where maybe he has Access to Super Moves like the Raging Demon, as well as maybe being able to Transform with the power of the Satsui no Hado.

Though Chun-Li I would say is more different in terms of Type of moves used, Design, and just that she has charge inputs, which Changes how she would play. Thought the problem with that is that if Charge inputs are unable to be implemented in the first Place, than that kind of kills some of the vibe Chun-Li usually has. They can implment Down/Up inputs, as seen with Terry, but Back/Forward is a Problem in a game like Smash
 

Dukefire

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While it could be anyone from a game series that left their mark in gaming, the marketing standpoint counts as well.

Could be Dante, Doom Slayer, Crash Bandicoot, an indie rep, etc.......

 

JOJONumber691

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Messages
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If the way you hold a sword is enough difference, then holding a gun is going to be different from holding a sword and/or a book. Aside from that, the Summoner is generally shown with their hood up; Robin keeps their hood off in Smash, so you can easily tell the difference.
Aside from that, color still plays a pretty decent role. Depending on how far away they are from the screen, some people just remember "I'm the red guy with the blue arrow above my head" and look for that in times of chaos. Color palette isn't something to be ignored.

And the Summoner doesn't need eighty different models, that's preposterous. Steve didn't need every single block and item in Minecraft, Cloud didn't need every Limit Break, Joker didn't need every Persona, etc. Fighters don't need every tiny little detail from their home game, just enough to accurately represent it. The Summoner would be fine with just six-ten characters; Heck, if we're being really conservative we'd be fine just limiting it to four characters for the different unit colors, or the five secondary Lords from the different books.
None of them need new lines either, seeing as they can just reuse the ones from Heroes; heck, Black Knight and Tiki(?) already do so. Even if they're just ATs, we already have an instance of reused voice clips in fighters with Chrom.

I hate the term "fan rule," but honestly, that's what you're using right now. Arbitrary requirements that have already been disproven in multiple instances and have to be stretched just to make sense. I don't think the Summoner is very likely, but not because of these shallow "obstacles".
Ah yes. Being able to tell who is who is a Fan Rule now, eh?
 

Pillow

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-I thought alot of the Characters in SF2 was notable outside of Gaming circles though. That's why I mentioned stuff like the Movie, where M.Bison was the Main villain and stuff like that. I've also seen people on my Mom's Facebook post videos with Guile's theme and everything. I'm not entirely sure Chun-Li is the only character that's notable outside of Gaming circles

-I'm also not even sure if she's more Notable than Ryu. I mean I could believe it, and it is true she is the only one with a Nicki Minaj song, but that is quite a statement. I will say perhaps her design is more Notable, because Ryu does look like just a Karate man, but on the other side, he is probably THE Karate man of media, besides Bruce Lee

-I'm also with you that I do think there might be a Problem of Akuma's Similarities to Ryu/Ken. With him I think they might play into the Boss thing, where maybe he has Access to Super Moves like the Raging Demon, as well as maybe being able to Transform with the power of the Satsui no Hado.

Though Chun-Li I would say is more different in terms of Type of moves used, Design, and just that she has charge inputs, which Changes how she would play. Thought the problem with that is that if Charge inputs are unable to be implemented in the first Place, than that kind of kills some of the vibe Chun-Li usually has. They can implment Down/Up inputs, as seen with Terry, but Back/Forward is a Problem in a game like Smash
Not that I don't find this discussion to be interesting, but this'll be my last response related to this topic. It's the Prediction Day here, after all, not the Chun-Li day.

Yes I realize character like Bison also has appearances and even recognizable memes (it was a Tuesday). But like I said, it's not really about Chun Li's number of appearances. Chun-Li is distinct for separate reasons, such as being one of the first real notable female video game protagonists. I wouldn't go so far as to call her a feminist icon (she was still designed to show off her ass every time she spin kicks), but being a strong female character is a big deal. People often criticize Smash for lacking both female and poc characters, when the reality is that's the case because Smash is essentially a reflection of the video game industry and its history as a whole. As sad as it sounds, having Chun-Li show up would be a bigger deal than any other SF character solely because of her gender alongside her relative importance to her home series. Peach and Zelda spend most of their games kidnapped and waiting to be saved (though that's slowly changing for the better and they have good portrayals in Smash itself), Isabelle is a goddamn secretary. Only Samus and Bayonetta (and I guess the Avatar characters, but they don't really count) fit the bill out of Smash's massive roster (I'm pretending "Other M" never existed, and you all should too).

Plus as far as SF is concerned, really only Bison or Akuma come even close to being as important as Chun, and I personally think they both don't even really come that close. I will state again, I actually don't think Chun-Li is coming for a variety of reasons (the biggest for me being Min-Min's appearance this FP, who shares a lot of similar themes with Chun-Li) but she's the clear frontrunner for another character from SF and I'd even go further to say when we get another Smash game she will 100% be in it.
 
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SharkLord

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Ah yes. Being able to tell who is who is a Fan Rule now, eh?
Yes, because it doesn't have any official statements to back it up, you're treating it as reason for a hard, definite no rather than simply unlikely, and your reasoning based on that point is inconsistent.

Somehow these two:
1612399110534.png
1612399120962.png

Are apparently more distinct than these two:


Based on the reasoning of... Byleth holding their sword differently? In the middle of a fast-paced fight where you're in the air half of the time, about half of everybody won't be able to discern such minute little details, especially when they both use the color blue for their hair and use swords. If the point is the silhouettes, Marth and Byleth goes against that because if you just looked at the outlines, you wouldn't be able to tell who is who at a glance. Even then, the Summoner's silhouette would be distinct from Robin's by virtue of A: Having their hood on most of the time, and B: Using a gun instead of swords and tomes. Besides, a white cloak and a black cloak would be a lot easier to distinguish than just "Well my guy holds his sword behind his head."

You didn't address my point about the models and voice acting, either. That is also a fan rule, because you are definitively saying that the way Heroes functions disqualifies the Summoner from being added when there have been no official statements on the matter. It's not something that has precedent, like Assist Trophies or post-launch Spirit Events. Large cast gachas have not been represented in Smash, nor has Sakurai ever said that they are disqualifies, so you cannot say for certain that they are disqualified or how they would be implemented.

If you want to convince anybody, you'll need a better response than just a snarky one-liner.
 

warpenguin55

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Messages
490
Predictions:

I think every company who got a character in FP1 will also get once in FP2. So far, 3/5 companies have given fighters in both both FP1 and FP2. Square Enix got Hero and Sephiroth, Nintendo added Byleth and Min Min, and Microsoft got Banjo/Kazooie and Steve. That leaves SNK and SEGA as the only companies not double repped. That would also leave 1 wildcard slot available.

Atleast, that's what I wanted to say. But there's nobody left to pick from in SNK, they pretty much blew their load when Terry was added . Capcom appears to still be supporting SSBU, so I'll transfer SNK's slot to them.

We also seem to be getting the biggest names available for this pass(and Min Min).

SEGA: Eggman
This one is the easiest. Another Sonic rep has been requested since SSB4, and Eggman is probably the most requested of the bunch. Eggman's got the name value for this easy.

Honorable Mentions: Tails and Kiryu

Capcom: Chun-Li
Capcom is pretty stacked. There's Phoenix, Dante, Amaterasu, and Chun-Li. I give Chun-Li the edge for being the biggest name of the 4. There is an argument that we wouldn't get another Street Fighter rep, and honestly I don't really want another yet. But still, Chun-Li's got that name value that Nintendo is looking for right now.
HM: Phoenix, Dante, Amaterasu

Wildcard: Crash Bandicoot
After decofirming everyone from Capcom, SEGA, Microsoft, and Square Enix, Crash is easily the most recognizable character remaining(that I can think of). =
HM: Veigo(LoL, he's the Ruined King btw), Agumon

Noms: LoL Rep x5
 

amageish

Smash Master
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Messages
3,558
So, I had big plans for this day, but I'm still pretty burnt out on speculation and couldn't push myself all the way through my planned dialogue... So, uh, if you want the start of a fight with myself about what it means to be "likely" in Smash speculation, then here's that! Note that I would have discussed plenty more characters, so I'm not purposefully excluding anyone... I also was trying to include some characters that I don't think are actually likely, but are interesting to me because they do things other "likely" characters do; I was not trying to say that everyone I speak about has a chance.

Maybe I'll finish it one day when I'm in more of a speculative mood. Maybe I won't. Who knows.

Link to the last day we did this and the last time I did this.


Anyway, time to go back on my break now.
 

Commander_Alph

Smash Lord
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Mar 20, 2019
Messages
1,792
So, I had big plans for this day, but I'm still pretty burnt out on speculation and couldn't push myself all the way through my planned dialogue... So, uh, if you want the start of a fight with myself about what it means to be "likely" in Smash speculation, then here's that! Note that I would have discussed plenty more characters, so I'm not purposefully excluding anyone... I also was trying to include some characters that I don't think are actually likely, but are interesting to me because they do things other "likely" characters do; I was not trying to say that everyone I speak about has a chance.

Maybe I'll finish it one day when I'm in more of a speculative mood. Maybe I won't. Who knows.

Link to the last day we did this and the last time I did this.


Anyway, time to go back on my break now.
Why did you mentioned Ling Tong in the warriors section?
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,453
So, I had big plans for this day, but I'm still pretty burnt out on speculation and couldn't push myself all the way through my planned dialogue... So, uh, if you want the start of a fight with myself about what it means to be "likely" in Smash speculation, then here's that! Note that I would have discussed plenty more characters, so I'm not purposefully excluding anyone... I also was trying to include some characters that I don't think are actually likely, but are interesting to me because they do things other "likely" characters do; I was not trying to say that everyone I speak about has a chance.

Maybe I'll finish it one day when I'm in more of a speculative mood. Maybe I won't. Who knows.

Link to the last day we did this and the last time I did this.


Anyway, time to go back on my break now.
It's not everyday I get to see somebody argueing with themself...
 

SharkLord

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Honestly, I was considering writing an entire sub-debate about who would be the best Warriors rep... then I didn't feel like doing that and just picked one of the many many many options as the header... So, uh, for no good reason. 😅
For the Warriors rep, I shall talk about...
spins wheel
Hmm yes I shall talk about Ling Tong
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
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Jun 29, 2012
Messages
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Scotland
So, I had big plans for this day, but I'm still pretty burnt out on speculation and couldn't push myself all the way through my planned dialogue... So, uh, if you want the start of a fight with myself about what it means to be "likely" in Smash speculation, then here's that! Note that I would have discussed plenty more characters, so I'm not purposefully excluding anyone... I also was trying to include some characters that I don't think are actually likely, but are interesting to me because they do things other "likely" characters do; I was not trying to say that everyone I speak about has a chance.

Maybe I'll finish it one day when I'm in more of a speculative mood. Maybe I won't. Who knows.

Link to the last day we did this and the last time I did this.


Anyway, time to go back on my break now.
ive lost track which colour are you? also we toad fans re way more pessimistic than that
 

JOJONumber691

Smash Lord
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Sep 28, 2020
Messages
1,791
Yes, because it doesn't have any official statements to back it up, you're treating it as reason for a hard, definite no rather than simply unlikely, and your reasoning based on that point is inconsistent.

Somehow these two:
View attachment 301743View attachment 301744
Are apparently more distinct than these two:


Based on the reasoning of... Byleth holding their sword differently? In the middle of a fast-paced fight where you're in the air half of the time, about half of everybody won't be able to discern such minute little details, especially when they both use the color blue for their hair and use swords. If the point is the silhouettes, Marth and Byleth goes against that because if you just looked at the outlines, you wouldn't be able to tell who is who at a glance. Even then, the Summoner's silhouette would be distinct from Robin's by virtue of A: Having their hood on most of the time, and B: Using a gun instead of swords and tomes. Besides, a white cloak and a black cloak would be a lot easier to distinguish than just "Well my guy holds his sword behind his head."

You didn't address my point about the models and voice acting, either. That is also a fan rule, because you are definitively saying that the way Heroes functions disqualifies the Summoner from being added when there have been no official statements on the matter. It's not something that has precedent, like Assist Trophies or post-launch Spirit Events. Large cast gachas have not been represented in Smash, nor has Sakurai ever said that they are disqualifies, so you cannot say for certain that they are disqualified or how they would be implemented.

If you want to convince anybody, you'll need a better response than just a snarky one-liner.
Byleth’s silhouettes are made and designed around how similar he and Marth are design-wise. Also, Byleth already plays similarly to Marth. They’re both Disjoint Zoners who focus on Combat from Mid-Range. It’s just that one has a Tipper, while the other uses Weapons. Also, again I have also said many times before that Summoner also has a budget issue. I don’t think they’ll go for the Character with a huge silhouette problem when said character also costs them a Million just for their gimmick alone.
 
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Commander_Alph

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Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
1,792
Summoner also has a budget issue. I don’t think they’ll go for the Character with a huge silhouette problem when said character also costs them a Million just for their gimmick alone.
I don't know know anything about Fire Emblem Heroes so expected some contradiction but why risking a silhouette problem when the rest of the Fire Emblem cast break that and I mean even then the fact that Summoner has his hood on while Robin doesn't already have a distinct difference.

And also about the budget issue couldn't they just cover that up by having just 5 easy design character with the quality of the model be the same as an Assist Trophy and group Final Smashes and just used it over and over again? And I mean tell if I'm wrong but isn't Heroes that there are a certain capacity on how many unit you could bring into battle?
 
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JOJONumber691

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Messages
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I don't know know anything about Fire Emblem Heroes so expected some contradiction but why risking a silhouette problem when the rest of the Fire Emblem cast break that and I mean even then the fact that Summoner has his hood on while Robin doesn't already have a distinct difference.

And also about the budget issue couldn't they just cover that up by having just 5 easy design character with the quality of the model be the same as an Assist Trophy and group Final Smashes and just used it over and over again? And I mean tell if I'm wrong but isn't Heroes that there are a certain capacity on how many unit you could bring into battle?
Yeah, but imagine up to 10 Other DIFFERENT Characters being Modeled PER KIRAN! I'm confident Sakurai would do that too in order to stay faithful to FEH's Gacha Mechanics. Like, even if Kiran's Normals didn't have summoning, his Smash Attacks, and all of his Specials, and his Final Smash would require Summoning in order to be faithful to Heroes. It just doesn't work. So, again, unless it's in Heroes' Art Style (which I doubt), it would be a massive budgeting nightmare implementing Kiran. Also, to debunk the sihloette thing:
Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Chrom: Clones of each other, also Roy has a Reverse Grip.
Ike: Big Sword held with One Arm, made to look powerful.
Robin: Tomes with a Jacket that makes Robin look more like a Tactician.
Corrin: Holds Chainsaw Sword behind them, also a Dragon.
Byleth: Different Weapons and Already Plays Similarly to Marth.
 
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Commander_Alph

Smash Lord
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Mar 20, 2019
Messages
1,792
Yeah, but imagine up to 10 Other DIFFERENT Characters being Modeled PER KIRAN
Or they could just lay half of them off and have only 5, I mean Joker is a special character because he could use and hold 6 different Persona and yet he only held 1 and that is Arsene.

I mean they could avoid the budget issue by just applying the summons into half of his moveset and fill it in with custom png image of each character corresponding to the motion of the attack (just like normal mobile game gacha)
 

JOJONumber691

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Or they could just lay half of them off and have only 5, I mean Joker is a special character because he could use and hold 6 different Persona and yet he only held 1 and that is Arsene.

I mean they could avoid the budget issue by just applying the summons into half of his moveset and fill it in with custom png image of each character corresponding to the motion of the attack (just like normal mobile game gacha)
Could work, but it's that on top of the silohette that prevents Summoner from happening.
 

SharkLord

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Byleth’s silhouettes are made and designed around how similar he and Marth are design-wise.
Then why can't the Summoner? If Byleth managed to be made distinct enough, what stops Kiran? Why are they suddenly walled off?

Also, Byleth already plays similarly to Marth. They’re both Disjoint Zoners who focus on Combat from Mid-Range. It’s just that one has a Tipper, while the other uses Weapons.
What does that have to do with Kiran? They're not similar enough to be added? I thought the point of the DLC was fresh and distinct characters?

Also, again I have also said many times before that Summoner also has a budget issue. I don’t think they’ll go for the Character with a huge silhouette problem when said character also costs them a Million just for their gimmick alone.
No, they don't. You don't know exactly how they would be implemented. Sakurai has never said anything about how he would implement gacha mechanics, and we can't say for certain how he'd do it. There isn't one way to implement the Summoner. Even then, they clearly didn't care about the budget issues when they created 17 different models in the background of Terry's stage, nor did they care about revamping every stage in the game just to make Steve work.

Yeah, but imagine up to 10 Other DIFFERENT Characters being Modeled PER KIRAN! I'm confident Sakurai would do that too in order to stay faithful to FEH's Gacha Mechanics. Like, even if Kiran's Normals didn't have summoning, his Smash Attacks, and all of his Specials, and his Final Smash would require Summoning in order to be faithful to Heroes. It just doesn't work. So, again, unless it's in Heroes' Art Style (which I doubt), it would be a massive budgeting nightmare implementing Kiran.
So that's about seven extra models, not counting the Final Smash. Big deal, they made seventeen new models just for the sake of randomized background cameos in the KoF Stadium. As for the alts, a quick recolor for everyone should do the trick. Or not; the Pokemon Trainer only has two sets of alts for their Pokemon, based on the gender you chose. If that's the case, I can easily see them just not recoloring those summons.

Also, to debunk the sihloette thing:
Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Chrom: Clones of each other, also Roy has a Reverse Grip.
Ike: Big Sword held with One Arm, made to look powerful.
Robin: Tomes with a Jacket that makes Robin look more like a Tactician.
Corrin: Holds Chainsaw Sword behind them, also a Dragon.
Byleth: Different Weapons and Already Plays Similarly to Marth.
And the Summoner doesn't even use a sword. They use a gun, and their hood is always up, so you never see their face. If "big sword in one arm" is enough of a distinction, then using a different weapon type entirely would also be distinct enough.
 

JOJONumber691

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Then why can't the Summoner? If Byleth managed to be made distinct enough, what stops Kiran? Why are they suddenly walled off?


What does that have to do with Kiran? They're not similar enough to be added? I thought the point of the DLC was fresh and distinct characters?


No, they don't. You don't know exactly how they would be implemented. Sakurai has never said anything about how he would implement gacha mechanics, and we can't say for certain how he'd do it. There isn't one way to implement the Summoner. Even then, they clearly didn't care about the budget issues when they created 17 different models in the background of Terry's stage, nor did they care about revamping every stage in the game just to make Steve work.


So that's about seven extra models, not counting the Final Smash. Big deal, they made seventeen new models just for the sake of randomized background cameos in the KoF Stadium. As for the alts, a quick recolor for everyone should do the trick. Or not; the Pokemon Trainer only has two sets of alts for their Pokemon, based on the gender you chose. If that's the case, I can easily see them just not recoloring those summons.


And the Summoner doesn't even use a sword. They use a gun, and their hood is always up, so you never see their face. If "big sword in one arm" is enough of a distinction, then using a different weapon type entirely would also be distinct enough.
Ah yes, with no Voice Acting or Gameplay Function. Also, Sakurai wouldn't recolor the Summons unless it's EXCLUSIVELY Heroes Exclusive Characters, which I doubt due to Heroes Core Mechanics. See why Summoner has so many issues? No Matter what Kiran is going to feel off, which is why I simply can't see Kiran getting in unless they're getting in to a Deluxe Edition of Ultimate getting released in the Future.
 
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JOJONumber691

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What's that supposed to mean you're saying every character have to originated from Heroes? Isn't that just you're own restriction?
Heroes as a game works in a way that Straight Up prevents it. So, unless they're completely random, or it's just the Heroes Originals, I honestly doubt it.
 

SharkLord

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Ah yes, with no Voice Acting or Gameplay Function.
The voice clips are easily reused. They've done it quite a bit with FE in Smash already, like with Chrom, Black Knight, and Tiki. The attacks would be coded in like normal, possibly repurposing a bit of code from Zelda's Phantom, which is already a summon character who would probably work similarly to the proposed summoning gimmick. At worst, it would take a minor delay for balancing purposes like Hero and their RNG frickery. Still, when the guy at the wheel is willing to redo every stage in the game to make a character's gimmick work properly, I don't think there's anything that could stop them.

Also, Sakurai wouldn't recolor the Summons unless it's EXCLUSIVELY Heroes Exclusive Characters, which I doubt due to Heroes Core Mechanics.
But why though? Why would the Heroes OCs be the only ones recolored?
Ah well, they don't need alts anyways. Rosalina's Lumas have randomized color palettes, the trainer's three Pokemon only have two different alts instead of the standard eight, and Zelda's summoned Phantoms aren't recolored either. Just treat them as a standard attack that happens to summon someone, and we won't need those alts.

See why Summoner has so many issues? No Matter what Kiran is going to feel off, which is why I simply can't see Kiran getting in unless they're getting in to a Deluxe Edition of Ultimate getting released in the Future.
And all those issues are something you tacked on and overexaggerated, then used for a hard, definitive no. Has Sakurai ever addressed these issues? Is there an interview where he emphasizes the distinct silhouettes? Did he ever say he couldn't cram multiple models into a fighter? Probably not.

And in the end, Nintendo's at the wheel. Their main goal is profitability, and if they think a Heroes rep in Smash would bring profit, they'd do it. And besides, a lot of people would say Hero and Steve's movesets wouldn't work before they were actually added, and yet here we are. The Summoner can work, and these issues aren't as bad as you make them out to be.
 

Commander_Alph

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Heroes as a game works in a way that Straight Up prevents it. So, unless they're completely random, or it's just the Heroes Originals, I honestly doubt it.
What?? It's just a recolor not a battle mechanic. That's an extreme way to represent the gacha mechanic and it isn't even that accurate, Olimar isn't even that faithful to his game because he only could pluck 3 Pikmin instead of 100 but at least he pluck them from the surface or that Ryu, Ken and Terry could only do simple button combo rather than a loop-the-loop but at least they perform combos. You can just work with 5 units and it already represent his summoning/gacha ability, you don't really have to include the %.
 
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JOJONumber691

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The voice clips are easily reused. They've done it quite a bit with FE in Smash already, like with Chrom, Black Knight, and Tiki. The attacks would be coded in like normal, possibly repurposing a bit of code from Zelda's Phantom, which is already a summon character who would probably work similarly to the proposed summoning gimmick. At worst, it would take a minor delay for balancing purposes like Hero and their RNG frickery. Still, when the guy at the wheel is willing to redo every stage in the game to make a character's gimmick work properly, I don't think there's anything that could stop them.


But why though? Why would the Heroes OCs be the only ones recolored?
Ah well, they don't need alts anyways. Rosalina's Lumas have randomized color palettes, the trainer's three Pokemon only have two different alts instead of the standard eight, and Zelda's summoned Phantoms aren't recolored either. Just treat them as a standard attack that happens to summon someone, and we won't need those alts.


And all those issues are something you tacked on and overexaggerated, then used for a hard, definitive no. Has Sakurai ever addressed these issues? Is there an interview where he emphasizes the distinct silhouettes? Did he ever say he couldn't cram multiple models into a fighter? Probably not.

And in the end, Nintendo's at the wheel. Their main goal is profitability, and if they think a Heroes rep in Smash would bring profit, they'd do it. And besides, a lot of people would say Hero and Steve's movesets wouldn't work before they were actually added, and yet here we are. The Summoner can work, and these issues aren't as bad as you make them out to be.
I guess Summoner is inevitable, so just to avoid any Conflicts in the Future, I'm going to guarantee Summoner gets in no matter what, just to be proven wrong because I'm making a legitimate argument judging by every character and the Trends they show, but no. I guess Summoner is Inevitable now.
 

Commander_Alph

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I guess Summoner is inevitable, so just to avoid any Conflicts in the Future, I'm going to guarantee Summoner gets in no matter what, just to be proven wrong because I'm making a legitimate argument judging by every character and the Trends they show, but no. I guess Summoner is Inevitable now.
Since when do we make him a lock???, We just said these obstacle that you put up won't affect his chances at all
 

TCT~Phantom

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This silhouette stuff is getting off topic.

But to throw in my own two cents rn, I doubt silhouettes really matter that much in a game where plenty of characters have similar animations to each other. I would excuse a casual fan mistaking some characters in this game because to be brutally honest the silhouettes are similar enough. I am just going to say that a similar silhouette is not a death knell by any means.

That being said I have my own reasons for thinking Summoner is unlikely, but that's beyond the point.

TLDR: This sillhouette stuff is weird and off topic, knock it off.
 

JOJONumber691

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This silhouette stuff is getting off topic.

But to throw in my own two cents rn, I doubt silhouettes really matter that much in a game where plenty of characters have similar animations to each other. I would excuse a casual fan mistaking some characters in this game because to be brutally honest the silhouettes are similar enough. I am just going to say that a similar silhouette is not a death knell by any means.

That being said I have my own reasons for thinking Summoner is unlikely, but that's beyond the point.

TLDR: This sillhouette stuff is weird and off topic, knock it off.
Yeah. let's just agree to disagree and see what happens from there, deal?
 

Dukefire

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Thinking too deep can lead to madness as the mind tries to process. The only way we can tell another character you selected (popular or not) is coming or not by Sakurai's reveal. Leaks and speculation can help time pass, but can't predict characters unlike FP1 due to information sealed away with caution.

The way I can see the next challenger reveal, either late February or early March since Sephiroth's reveal on December last year at the VGA. Also, Pokemon Day is present and another Indie Direct may appear.

I expect those two first before Challenger 9's reveal. Though, who would be good to start the new year on Spring?
 
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