Rate Their Chances - Smash Ultimate Edition! Day 672: Five Most Likely First and Third Parties for Smash 6, and Final Goodbyes

[RouffWestie]

Overrated
5. Crash
I would call him possible, but not the most likely newcomer. I think characters that had more consistent high demand would beat him out, especially those who got an early start with the Smash 4 ballot.
4. Rex
While ARMS got a second chance after being too late for the base game and 1st Fighter Pass, I think one big thing befitting its inclusion is that it was a brand new IP for Nintendo to show off. Xenoblade has Shulk on the roster already, so there's somewhat less incentive for Nintendo to go for an entire DLC pack for Rex.
3. Paper Mario
He really only got traction after a new game was announced. Since it's a minor series branching off of Mario, I don't imagine Nintendo having much interest in him, and since he's just a different appearance of an existing Smash fighter that can't be made into an easy echo, I don't imagine Sakurai having much interest in him. I think the only person who would actively seek to make him playable is Tanabe himself.
2. Geno
It's highly possible he'll simply return as a Mii. All he has in his favor is fan demand, and while it's helped many newcomers get into Ultimate, it's never been without either recognizability or a major role within their series.
1. Lara Croft
She's from a big franchise, but that's really the only thing in her favor. Problem is we've already seen several big franchises get passed over. I think she has a lower chance compared to the popular-in-Japan franchises.

Underrated
5. KOS-MOS
I don't think she's as unlikely she currently gets labeled as. The comparisons she receives seem fair when dead characters and franchises are brought up, but the Xeno series history is so different from the average game that I could see her getting in regardless.
4. Monster Hunter
It got some big content in the base game and I personally believe the devs do feel content representing some franchises with just non-playable content, but MH is one of the franchises I can see Nintendo giving a second chance to. It still made a big splash on Nintendo's previous consoles, and would probably have a ton of demand on top of whatever it had between Smash 4 and Ultimate's release.
3. Arle Nadja
She's been highly requested consistently for Smash, her series has been influential to its genre and is clearly active on Nintendo's own hardware. The timing seems perfect for her. I put her higher up on my most-expected list compared to how she's currently viewed.
2. Cinderace
All I can say is that it will end up having a major role in the anime, it will get a lot of merchandise, it's already the most popular Swsh starter, and there's little doubt that this was already planned from the beginning. Character design and marketing is kind of a solved puzzle, and Cinderace shows all the signs of being predetermined to be in Smash.
1. A new FE character
I have to consider the fact that a new game doesn't need to release before the character is added because IS already knows it will be a success, that a character can be designed based on anything from unfinished builds to model sheets, that FE is the only major franchise IS works on anymore (leaving a lot of doubt that they would suddenly not be developing a new one for the next year,) and that they're consistently pushing the new protagonist of each mainline release since Awakening. The precedents in place make it very hard for me to justify why suddenly now they're just going to come to a stop.

 

[Mr. MR]

1. A new FE character
I have to consider the fact that a new game doesn't need to release before the character is added because IS already knows it will be a success, that a character can be designed based on anything from unfinished builds to model sheets, that FE is the only major franchise IS works on anymore (leaving a lot of doubt that they would suddenly not be developing a new one for the next year,) and that they're consistently pushing the new protagonist of each mainline release since Awakening. The precedents in place make it very hard for me to justify why suddenly now they're just going to come to a stop.

What in the shadowrealm are you asking for lol
Why not another Intelligent Systems character like Abraham Lincoln?

Seriously though, we already have Byleth in the last DLC so I don't see why we would have one this DLC considering even Nintendo gave Sakurai flak for including Byleth as another Fire Emblem character.

 

[DanganZilla5]

even Nintendo gave Sakurai flak for including Byleth as another Fire Emblem character.

When did Nintendo or Sakurai say that? To my knowledge Sakurai only stated that even he thinks there are too many swordsman in the game and that Nintendo chose Byleth.

 

[Mr. MR]

When did Nintendo or Sakurai say that? To my knowledge Sakurai only stated that even he thinks there are too many swordsman in the game and that Nintendo chose Byleth.

I'm mostly basing this on this Sakurai quote during the Byleth reveal:
“I think many Nintendo employees will be surprised to see this and say ‘wow, really?!'”

Though I pulled it from memory and so I probably made the context a little broader than what it was.

Edit:
During the direct I saw it as a cool unexpected character. After the reveal I thought the "wow really?!?" was mostly sarcastic. I could be reading the sarcasm wrong.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I'm mostly basing this on this Sakurai quote during the Byleth reveal:
“I think many Nintendo employees will be surprised to see this and say ‘wow, really?!'”

Though I pulled it from memory and so I probably made the context a little broader than what it was.

Actually, I think that was referring to just how much of a secret Byleth's inclusion was. As in, not even Nintendo's own employees knew about it.

 

[JCKirbs]

Overrated:

1. Bandanna Waddle Dee:
Ahh BWD, the one character I actively cannot understand why they have so much support. I see many people state this little soldier of King Dedede's army as being full of personality and I just don't see it. He has Spear Kirby's moveset plastered to a waddle dee who's sole signifying trait is the piece of cloth he wears on his head.
I would say a spear user would be interesting for Smash, but relative to other Kirby characters that arent in Smash yet, Bandanna Dee has little to put on the table in comparison. Its not helped b the fact his status as the 4th main character in Kirby feels artificial and forced by the Kirby staff. BWD wasn't made the 4th due to becoming popular he was made popular because at the time he was introduced he worked as the ideal 4th member of what was a trio for the longest time. I don't feel he earned his place, he was put into and the fans just accepted it as truth.

Just going to rise from the grave real quick to address this, don't mind me.

Yes, I definitely think that Bandana Dee's overall importance and/or notability in the Kirby franchise can still be easily questioned and argued.
Yes, it's clear that he hasn't gotten as much time as characters like King Dedede and Meta Knight for developing himself to be more widely considered as a main character.
Yes, it can be argued that there are plenty of other Kirby characters who could be "cooler" candidates with "better" moveset potential for a game like Smash.

But honestly, I still think that the amount of support which he has gathered over the years is completely justified because of how satisfying his inclusion would actually be. Down to the very instance in which it was claimed that he "deserved a prize" for his stellar attendance in the Kirby series and for being the sole representative of Waddle Dees. Considering that Waddle Dees have been a Kirby series staple, I think it would be pretty neat for a "celebration of gaming" to include a representative for a species which has been with the Kirby series since the very beginning.

I personally don't think that moveset potential is even much of a problem either. People keep saying "spear, spear, spear" while forgetting that he could also pull from his Parasol abilities and his signature Megaton Punch move. Not to mention that, for as much as Bandana Dee is just "Spear Kirby" (despite the Spear ability practically becoming his own exclusive weapon, complete with a brand-new move which Spear Kirby hasn't utilized before) King Dedede once boiled down to just being "Hammer Kirby" in the mainline titles, and Meta Knight once boiled down to a flashier "Sword Kirby". Yet in Smash, they function pretty differently to how they usually play in the Kirby series. Who's to say that wouldn't be the case for Bandana Dee?

Overall though, even if he isn't likely to be DLC at all, I wouldn't want to think that he'd need to jump through more hurdles than needed in order to be considered "worthy".

Granted, people are still allowed to keep their opinions towards him and his chances.

 

[Mr. MR]

Actually, I think that was referring to just how much of a secret Byleth's inclusion was. As in, not even Nintendo's own employees knew about it.

I edited my post after you did this so i'll put it here too.
Watching it during the reveal I heard that statement and thought that the character was going to be someone who no one saw coming. After Byleth's reveal I now saw it in a more sarcastic light. Since I don't speak Japanese I could have misinterpreted the meaning of "Wow really?!" but I do think its a response of not just surprise because it was super secret but also the character that was selected. I could be wrong on all of this.

 

[SharkLord]

Just going to rise from the grave real quick to address this, don't mind me.

Yes, I definitely think that Bandana Dee's overall importance and/or notability in the Kirby franchise can still be easily questioned and argued.
Yes, it's clear that he hasn't gotten as much time as characters like King Dedede and Meta Knight for developing himself to be more widely considered as a main character.
Yes, it can be argued that there are plenty of other Kirby characters who could be "cooler" candidates with "better" moveset potential for a game like Smash.

But honestly, I still think that the amount of support which he has gathered over the years is completely justified because of how satisfying his inclusion would actually be. Down to the very instance in which it was claimed that he "deserved a prize" for his stellar attendance in the Kirby series and for being the sole representative of Waddle Dees. Considering that Waddle Dees have been a Kirby series staple, I think it would be pretty neat for a "celebration of gaming" to include a representative for a species which has been with the Kirby series since the very beginning.

I personally don't think that moveset potential is even much of a problem either. People keep saying "spear, spear, spear" while forgetting that he could also pull from his Parasol abilities and his signature Megaton Punch move. Not to mention that, for as much as Bandana Dee is just "Spear Kirby" (despite the Spear ability practically becoming his own exclusive weapon, complete with a brand-new move which Spear Kirby hasn't utilized before) King Dedede once boiled down to just being "Hammer Kirby" in the mainline titles, and Meta Knight once boiled down to a flashier "Sword Kirby". Yet in Smash, they function pretty differently to how they usually play in the Kirby series. Who's to say that wouldn't be the case for Bandana Dee?

Overall though, even if he isn't likely to be DLC at all, I wouldn't want to think that he'd need to jump through more hurdles than needed in order to be considered "worthy".

Granted, people are still allowed to keep their opinions towards him and his chances.

The thing is, Sakurai said "We're having cool new ways to play!" More than likely, it's just vague, meaningless crowd-pleasing fluff because Sakurai probably thinks that all the upcoming DLC characters will be fun. Unfortunately that gets taken to mean "If you can't fly, transform, cram a million different specials into a single input and switch between them at will, or have a gauge of some sort, you're trash." Bandana Dee's simple moveset would probably work better as a base game thing, but apparently "Simple is bad."
We got some shmuck with knife, a gun, and a generic super form when we could've gotten a true Stand Master, some generic bear that hitsyou with a generic bird, and some dude who was literally picked up off the streets... And we loved them. They were simple in theory, but in execution they were awesome (Though some people may beg to differ with Banjo). And then we want, what, some ape in dire need of a haircut, some generic armor dude with a gun, and an obscure Australian marsupial with pants for some reason (Not to **** on Dixie, Master Chief, and Crash, just using them as examples).

Bottom line: Simple=/=Bad.

 

[JCKirbs]

The thing is, Sakurai said "We're having cool new ways to play!" More than likely, it's just vague, meaningless crowd-pleasing fluff because Sakurai probably thinks that all the upcoming DLC characters will be fun. Unfortunately that gets taken to mean "If you can't fly, transform, cram a million different specials into a single input and switch between them at will, or have a gauge of some sort, you're trash." Bandana Dee's simple moveset would probably work better as a base game thing, but apparently "Simple is bad."
We got some shmuck with knife, a gun, and a generic super form when we could've gotten a true Stand Master, some generic bear that hits you with a generic bird, and some dude who was literally picked up off the streets... And we loved them. They were simple in theory, but in execution they were awesome (Though some people may beg to differ with Banjo). And then we want, what, some ape in dire need of a haircut, some generic armor dude with a gun, and an obscure Australian marsupial with pants for some reason (Not to **** on Dixie, Master Chief, and Crash, just using them as examples).

Bottom line: Simple=/=Bad.

Honestly, at this point I'd probably want someone like Bandana Dee to be a bonus fighter or something (even though there is an extremely slim chance of those even being a thing at this point). But he could be as simple as he wants, and the people who still complain don't have to claim that they somehow had to buy him. Really though, I think that he could still be a very fun character to play as and perhaps he would give the Kirby series a more competitive-friendly edge on the roster.
But apparently, a character is still a "bad choice" if they don't make the masses of entitled Smash fans bounce out of their chairs and break something in their rooms out of pure, unrivaled excitement.
At the end of the day though, I always see people talking more about how fun a character is to play as (which is indeed why Banjo can be considered a controversial character in regards to that aspect, despite his reveal being among the most "hype").

Anyway, I can already feel my feet sinking back into the dirt again...

 

[PLANTMAN]

While ARMS got a second chance after being too late for the base game and 1st Fighter Pass, I think one big thing befitting its inclusion is that it was a brand new IP for Nintendo to show off. Xenoblade has Shulk on the roster already, so there's somewhat less incentive for Nintendo to go for an entire DLC pack for Rex.

I’m gonna have to say that point you made against Rex kinda feels worthless due to the fact we got last pass.

 

[SharkLord]

Honestly, at this point I'd probably want someone like Bandana Dee to be a bonus fighter or something (even though there is an extremely slim chance of those even being a thing at this point). But he could be as simple as he wants, and the people who still complain don't have to claim that they somehow had to buy him. Really though, I think that he could still be a very fun character to play as and perhaps he would give the Kirby series a more competitive-friendly edge on the roster.
But apparently, a character is still a "bad choice" if they don't make the masses of entitled Smash fans bounce out of their chairs and break something in their rooms out of pure, unrivaled excitement.
At the end of the day though, I always see people talking more about how fun a character is to play as (which is indeed why Banjo can be considered a controversial character in regards to that aspect, despite his reveal being among the most "hype").

Anyway, I can already feel my feet sinking back into the dirt again...

Yeah, he'd probably be best as a bonus fighter, seeing as he's only partially related to most of the modern Kirby era content. Such is the curse of a supporting character; You have relevance to the series, but you aren't inherently tied to the series like the main protagonists-And unlike ARMS, Kirby doesn't have an ensemble cast.

But we still love the little guy regardless.

 

[JCKirbs]

Yeah, he'd probably be best as a bonus fighter, seeing as he's only partially related to most of the modern Kirby era content. Such is the curse of a supporting character; You have relevance to the series, but you aren't inherently tied to the series like the main protagonists-And unlike ARMS, Kirby doesn't have an ensemble cast.

But we still love the little guy regardless.

Yeah he's still our little orange marshmallow, even if his overall placement in the series is a little awkward as it is.

(I have to admit though, considering all of the surprisingly substantial support that he has maintained even to this day, I sometimes feel a little greedy for trying to obtain as much level-headed thinking towards his inclusion for a game like Smash as possible. Yeah, I would think that even if you don't like the character, you would probably still consider him to be a harmless pick, but I sometimes need to remind myself that everyone doesn't need to think the same way).

 

[fogbadge]

FE is the only major franchise IS works on anymore

theres something ironic in saying that in a post that also mentions paper mario

some generic bear that hitsyou with a generic bird

what kind of bears and birds live in your part of the world?

 

[Neosonic97]

theres something ironic in saying that in a post that also mentions paper mario

Don't forget WarioWare- IS works on that series, too!

Anyway... I'm not entirely sure who's overrated and who's underrated overall, so I'll just give my thoughts on one of each.

Overrated: Doomguy/Doom Slayer (Doom)

There's really no denying it at this point: Doom is a violent game series. The violence has become a big part of its identity (Hence why the Glory Kill mechanic in Doom Eternal even exists, after all) and I see that as a HUGE obstacle, the same way I don't ever see Scorpion from Mortal Kombat getting in. And NO, he's not the only possible Bethesda Rep. We also have the Dragonborn from Skyrim for that, and I think that the Dovahkiin (FUS ROH DAH!) especially considering Skyrim's MASSIVE success (19th best selling game in the world) to the point where it's been ported to basically every console out there.

There's also, y'know, the fact that the devs LITERALLY said Doomguy's not happening.

Underrated: Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

Getting tired of me gushing over Reimu yet? No? Good, because here's some more gushing. While people say that the 'Japan' argument is overrated (and I agree, to a certain extent- we DID get Banjo and the Belmonts, who were much better off in the West than in Japan), I do think the 'it's obscure in the west!' argument is also stupidly overrated. Yes, I know Takamaru failed to get promoted because he wasn't popular enough in the west. Problem is, Touhou does at the very least have a cult following in the west. The worst you could say about things like that is Sakurai's statement on Lucas (He wouldn't have put Lucas in if he knew Mother 3 wasn't going to reach the west), but that was a long time ago.

Second, the 'If Sans couldn't do it...' argument. One thing I've noted is that of all the Indie Content in Smash, most of it is from series that took off fairly recently (All Indies repped in Smash took off around 2014 at the earliest [2014 referring to Shovel Knight]). Shantae isn't an outlier to this rule despite having releases as early as 2002, because she only really took off with the release of Half-Genie Hero in 2016.

Touhou, on the other hand, has a long and deep history, reaching as far back as 1996, and even if you stretch it, the LATEST you could say Touhou took off by was 2004 (The release of Imperishable Night). And it's still going strong today, which I think is the big difference between Touhou and the others- the history factor.

Also, I'd just like to note something about one freaking statement that is a hella nasty take:

If Reimu has legitimate arguments, Chief has way better argument to back up.

Aside from the fact that, y'know, Reimu has so much moveset potential to her that it honestly blows Master Chief out of the water in that regard? Even if you just directly ported her from her own fighting games, she'd still be a fun and interesting character in the context of Smash.

Also Touhou's literal god-tier music. Can't forget that.

Third: I don't see ZUN being pretty lax with copyright as a problem. If anything, I think it would make things EASIER on Nintendo as it would mean negotiations with ZUN would likely be easier, which would already be pretty easy since ZUN has been confirmed to want Touhou representation in Smash.

Fourth: 'Nintendo Appearances tho!'. To that I say Cloud Strife. And no, I don't count Kingdom Hearts. Even if you did count Kingdom Hearts, then I could say 'Well, Reimu appeared on the 3DS in a crossover with Kirby through the Taiko no Tatsujin series!'. There's also the fact that that's just a freaking courtesy and not an actual requirement.

Lastly, other people have gone over how Touhou has already seeped a lot into Eastern Culture (especially Japan), so I'll just add that the fact that Reitaisai exists at all (For those still unaware, Reitaisai is a Japanese convention that is dedicated solely to Touhou Project, made so that Touhou would not overrun Comiket [As well as to give ZUN a platform to show fans new stuff]) should also be considered.

Basically, all of the common arguments I see against Reimu's inclusion just fall apart under scrutiny.

The way I see it, here is what Reimu has going for her in a short, concise list.

• Has crossed over with Nintendo properties in the past (Taiko no Tatsujin)
• Massive cultural significance in Japan (See others' posts)
• Overflowing moveset potential.
• Godly music.
• ZUN wanting her in Smash, and being lax on copyright would make negotiating for her easy.
• A long, deep history spanning nearly twenty-five years (An extreme rarity amongst Indies)
• Represents an otherwise untapped genre of games (Shmups) that Sakurai also happens to be a fan of (Why do you think shmup sections keep appearing in Kirby games?).
• While not massively popular, does have a somewhat notable cult-following in the west, so she's not a 'literally who?'. (And anybody who unironically uses the phrase I put in apostrophes and bolded is a moron who can't do even a second of research.)

 

[Lyncario]

we DID get Banjo and the Belmonts, who were much better off in the West than in Japan

Just a little thing about that. Banjowas actualy pretty popular in Japan, and for the Belmonts, while Simon was nowhere near popular in Japan as he is in the west, Richter got in mainly due to Japan where he is the most popular Belmont. Ridley and Little Mac would be better examples here for characters who got in due to western popularity

 

[Lionfranky]

Underrated: Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)


Aside from the fact that, y'know, Reimu has so much moveset potential to her that it honestly blows Master Chief out of the water in that regard? Even if you just directly ported her from her own fighting games, she'd still be a fun and interesting character in the context of Smash.

I never brought moveset potential when it came to likeness. I brought up regional problem. It's a fact that Reimu has worse regional problem than Chief does. Japanese anime studios were involved in producing Halo anime. It sold decently in Japan. There was actually a professional Japanese Halo team that beat Bungie back in Halo 2 days.
I looked through various Reimu moveset not to be bias, but I'm not convinced what you are saying is true.

 

[Lyncario]

I never brought moveset potential when it came to likeness. I brought up regional problem. It's a fact that Reimu has worse regional problem than Chief does. Japanese anime studios were involved in producing Halo anime. It sold decently in Japan. There was actually a professional Japanese Halo team that beat Bungie back in Halo 2 days.
I looked through various Reimu moveset not to be bias, but I'm not convinced what you are saying is true.

I mean, if we're arguing who would have the better final Smash, Reimu's ultimate attack, Fantasy Narure, is called Musou Tensei in Japanese. Like this Musou Tensei

I'm not even joking. Reimu's Fantasy Nature is an "you'e already dead" kind of move, and it even has a badass theme song linked to it

 

[SharkLord]

what kind of bears and birds live in your part of the world?

It wasn't an actual dig at them so much as a jab at the idea that "Simple bad" when they're one of the biggest Smash requests ever despite being more or less talking animals.

I mean, if we're arguing who would have the better final Smash, Reimu's ultimate attack, Fantasy Narure, is called Musou Tensei in Japanese. Like this Musou Tensei

I'm not even joking. Reimu's Fantasy Nature is an "you'e already dead" kind of move, and it even has a badass theme song linked to it

I just did Fantasy Seal as the normal Final Smash and had it change to Fantasy Nature when at a high-enough percentage. It's effectively just a "Instakill at high percent" Final Smash like Zelda's or Bayonetta's, but much flashier.

 

[Lyncario]

I just did Fantasy Seal as the normal Final Smash and had it change to Fantasy Nature when at a high-enough percentage. It's effectively just a "Instakill at high percent" Final Smash like Zelda's or Bayonetta's, but much flashier.

Personaly, I like he idea of Reimu getting spellcards like Cloud's limits by narrowly dodging attacks, representing the high risk high reward nature of the graze mechanic in bullet hells, and also referencing how it works in LoLK, which is, I admit, one of my favorite Touhou. And I also think that as a Last Word, Fantasy Nature is pretty comprable to Ryu's Shin Shoryuken and Shinku Hadoken, which is are Ryu's final Smashes.

 

[Xenigma]

Don't forget WarioWare- IS works on that series, too!

Anyway... I'm not entirely sure who's overrated and who's underrated overall, so I'll just give my thoughts on one of each.

Overrated: Doomguy/Doom Slayer (Doom)

There's really no denying it at this point: Doom is a violent game series. The violence has become a big part of its identity (Hence why the Glory Kill mechanic in Doom Eternal even exists, after all) and I see that as a HUGE obstacle, the same way I don't ever see Scorpion from Mortal Kombat getting in. And NO, he's not the only possible Bethesda Rep. We also have the Dragonborn from Skyrim for that, and I think that the Dovahkiin (FUS ROH DAH!) especially considering Skyrim's MASSIVE success (19th best selling game in the world) to the point where it's been ported to basically every console out there.

There's also, y'know, the fact that the devs LITERALLY said Doomguy's not happening.

Underrated: Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

Getting tired of me gushing over Reimu yet? No? Good, because here's some more gushing. While people say that the 'Japan' argument is overrated (and I agree, to a certain extent- we DID get Banjo and the Belmonts, who were much better off in the West than in Japan), I do think the 'it's obscure in the west!' argument is also stupidly overrated. Yes, I know Takamaru failed to get promoted because he wasn't popular enough in the west. Problem is, Touhou does at the very least have a cult following in the west. The worst you could say about things like that is Sakurai's statement on Lucas (He wouldn't have put Lucas in if he knew Mother 3 wasn't going to reach the west), but that was a long time ago.

Second, the 'If Sans couldn't do it...' argument. One thing I've noted is that of all the Indie Content in Smash, most of it is from series that took off fairly recently (All Indies repped in Smash took off around 2014 at the earliest [2014 referring to Shovel Knight]). Shantae isn't an outlier to this rule despite having releases as early as 2002, because she only really took off with the release of Half-Genie Hero in 2016.

Touhou, on the other hand, has a long and deep history, reaching as far back as 1996, and even if you stretch it, the LATEST you could say Touhou took off by was 2004 (The release of Imperishable Night). And it's still going strong today, which I think is the big difference between Touhou and the others- the history factor.

Also, I'd just like to note something about one freaking statement that is a hella nasty take:



Aside from the fact that, y'know, Reimu has so much moveset potential to her that it honestly blows Master Chief out of the water in that regard? Even if you just directly ported her from her own fighting games, she'd still be a fun and interesting character in the context of Smash.

Also Touhou's literal god-tier music. Can't forget that.

Third: I don't see ZUN being pretty lax with copyright as a problem. If anything, I think it would make things EASIER on Nintendo as it would mean negotiations with ZUN would likely be easier, which would already be pretty easy since ZUN has been confirmed to want Touhou representation in Smash.

Fourth: 'Nintendo Appearances tho!'. To that I say Cloud Strife. And no, I don't count Kingdom Hearts. Even if you did count Kingdom Hearts, then I could say 'Well, Reimu appeared on the 3DS in a crossover with Kirby through the Taiko no Tatsujin series!'. There's also the fact that that's just a freaking courtesy and not an actual requirement.

Lastly, other people have gone over how Touhou has already seeped a lot into Eastern Culture (especially Japan), so I'll just add that the fact that Reitaisai exists at all (For those still unaware, Reitaisai is a Japanese convention that is dedicated solely to Touhou Project, made so that Touhou would not overrun Comiket [As well as to give ZUN a platform to show fans new stuff]) should also be considered.

Basically, all of the common arguments I see against Reimu's inclusion just fall apart under scrutiny.

The way I see it, here is what Reimu has going for her in a short, concise list.

• Has crossed over with Nintendo properties in the past (Taiko no Tatsujin)
• Massive cultural significance in Japan (See others' posts)
• Overflowing moveset potential.
• Godly music.
• ZUN wanting her in Smash, and being lax on copyright would make negotiating for her easy.
• A long, deep history spanning nearly twenty-five years (An extreme rarity amongst Indies)
• Represents an otherwise untapped genre of games (Shmups) that Sakurai also happens to be a fan of (Why do you think shmup sections keep appearing in Kirby games?).
• While not massively popular, does have a somewhat notable cult-following in the west, so she's not a 'literally who?'. (And anybody who unironically uses the phrase I put in apostrophes and bolded is a moron who can't do even a second of research.)

I'm glad your passionate about Reimu, but I hope you understand that much of what you are describing is either opinion or not as helpful as you seem to think. For example, as much as I'd like to believe moveset potential is important (I'm an Isaac fan, after all), it really only seems to matter if it's actively bad (and we still got characters like Villager, Isabelle, and Duck Hunt). Similarly, you bring up crossing over with Taiko, but from what I can find that's a Namco Bandai franchise largely published by Namco Bandai itself, and judging by Drum 'n' Fun's soundtrack, at least, the bar for third party content is far lower than Smash's (insofar as a great deal of the songs appear to not be from Namco Bandai properties). Also, unless I'm missing some important Sakurai quote, seemingly no third parties have been selected primarily for their genre: the closest I can think of are Ryu/Ken and Terry as fighting game characters, and that fact seems secondary to the former two being from the legendary Street Fighter franchise, with the latter representing historic Nintendo competitor SNK. It couldn't hurt, sure, but it doesn't seem to be a major contributing factor.

Finally, since you've called out anyone who doesn't recognize Reimu as "a moron who can't do even a second of research," I feel obliged to say that being a niche character outside of Asia isn't something that can, or should, be brushed off so easily. Putting aside first party characters, who have historically been held to a different standard (see Roy/Lucas), every third party character is from a franchise that is, if not popular in the West, than at the very least well known. The closest we have to an East-only character is Hero, and I think even then you'd be hard pressed to suggest that Dragon Quest is a non-entity in Western video game culture. I won't pretend to know exactly how Sakurai/Nintendo consider popularity, but being as niche as Touhou is in the West could absolutely be considered a detractor if they're at all worried about such things.

To be clear, Reimu/Touhou in Smash is certainly possible. It's entirely possible myself and others are indeed underrating their chances, especially given we have precious little idea what exactly Sakurai and Nintendo have considered for FP2. I'm certainly not going to suggest it would be a bad choice either, especially given how passionate some of you are about the characters/music/etc. However, just like I could give a list of the reasons I think Isaac could/should be in Smash, I also understand that there are many equally valid reasons for people to believe he has no chance, and the same goes for Reimu and a whole bunch of other characters that have been discussed in this overrated/underrated topic. The variety in opinions is what makes Smash speculation interesting IMO, and I look forward to seeing who ends up being right.

 

[Neosonic97]

Personaly, I like he idea of Reimu getting spellcards like Cloud's limits

That's how I'd do it, for sure.

Finally, since you've called out anyone who doesn't recognize Reimu as "a moron who can't do even a second of research,"

Don't put words in my mouth. I said anybody who uses the statement "Literally who?" unironically can be described like that. You just assumed I was referring specifically to Reimu because the statement is most infamously attributed to Reimu detractors. Because saying "Literally who?" implies that you haven't even bothered to look it up. Doesn't matter if it's Reimu or somebody else, if you use that two-word phrase, you didn't do the research. That's fact.

I looked through various Reimu moveset not to be bias, but I'm not convinced what you are saying is true.

Not gonna lie, that moveset you linked was... underwhelming to say the least. The only really unique thing about him is the ammo mechanic (His weapon switching isn't THAT unique- it's basically the difference between Olimar/Alph's Pikmin). And the Final Smash? It's literally just Captain Falcon's FS except with unlimited horizontal range.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

In no particular order, and remember this is JUST my opinion

Overrated:

1. Rex - purely chances wise here, I don't hate the character, but I feel like people think he's almost a lock after ARMS got a second chance in the roster with Min Min. I'd beg to differ in that while Sakurai mentioned ARMS and XC2 were too late for base initially, Min Min doesn't necessarily guarantee Rex or a XC2 character. Plus, in my honest opinion they wouldn't have made Rex a bonus costume for Pass 1 if they wanted to make him playable later, otherwise the ARMS DLC would have been Spring Man (Assist Trophy in base) or Ribbon Girl (costume in base). Min Min had a Spirit and nothing more, no music from ARMS either. There is XC2 music in base; not a lot, but still incriminating imo. tl;dr - Min Min doesn't guarantee Rex, that's my two cents.
2. Geno - yes, Sakurai considered him for Brawl, but he may not want to revisit Geno now, especially considering the character's complicated copyright debacle. He has yet to revisit Dixie Kong or Chorus Kids or even Ayumi Tachibana, after all. Plus, there are other Square Enix characters that are more popular and imo deserving, one of which will be in the Underrated list.
3. Ryu Hayabusa - ... I just never got the hype for him. His series was born on Nintendo systems... and he's popular. that seems to be it?
4. Doom Slayer - yeah I'm aware he's from the granddaddy of FPS games, landmark in gaming history, and has also been on Nintendo systems before. but to me, the hyper-violence is part of his character and what DOOM represents, it's not like Bayonetta where you can remove the gore and partial nudity and make her still work. plus I feel like people mostly want him to fill some arbitrary "genre" quota when Sakurai never selected based on genre alone.
5. Shantae - yeah, Bozon wanted her in Smash 4, but I kinda feel it's a bit overblown. (idk what else to say, but barely a day goes by that the Shantae thread isn't near the top and im just legit curious as to why) plus, I feel like there are other Indies that could be discussed more like Hollow Knight or Gunvolt.
(Dis?)Honorable mention - Gen 8 Pokemon. so far the only Pokemon as DLC was a veteran (Mewtwo in 4); and I feel like people pushing say Urshifu is just for the sake of shilling the DLC expansion for SwSh. I'd be cool with Rillaboom, but I doubt it'll happen.

Underrated:
1. Neku - here's my "underrated" Square Enix pick to counteract Geno. TWEWY was born on the DS, is a cult classic, has an ANIME coming soon, a sequel potentially coming soon, Neku appeared in KH3D, and then there's KH3's secret ending. Neku also has a lot of moveset potential that I think is slept on. Nothing against Sora, Sephiroth, Crono or 2B, but if we get a third Square rep, I hope it's Neku.
2. KOS-MOS - I echo what RouffWestie said, plus her appeal is so huge in Japan that she has merch and has appeared in tons of crossovers. I mean what's NOT to love about a badass female android who's a walking Swiss army knife of military grade weapons??
3. Elma - people say "X was the least popular Xenoblade" or "X isn't on Switch (yet) so why should I care?" wrt popularity, I think the Wii U screwed it over and it could benefit from a second chance on the Switch (with Elma as promotional Smash DLC to tie in). Her moveset would flow like butter with switching from dual swords and dual guns on the fly; Overdrive could be a potential mechanic; and there's NO X music, and the unlock conditions of her Spirit are a bit suspicious....
4. Octoling - everyone's so quick to write them off as not being very different from Inklings. I would think that they CAN still be vastly different, regardless of whether or not they use different weapons. My idea is them being high risk and high reward, as a meta way of echoing the spirit of Octo Expansion.
5. Black Shadow - yeah this is probably the hottest take here. Another F-Zero rep, when the series has been on hiatus since 2005?! that's EXACTLY why he's so underrated. ppl also say "he's just someone to dump Ganondorf's old moveset onto" but you forget this is SAKURAI we're talking about, he can make a totally original moveset for Black Shadow, maybe using the electric chains he used in that one F-Zero GX cutscene or something. he'd be a curveball pick and I'm all for it
Honorable mention - Gunvolt. one of my favorite indie franchises in the past few years, connections to Nintendo, ABSOLUTE BANGERS OF A SOUNDTRACK, but so little discussion. I expect a costume at the bare minimum but if he became playable I'd hype so hard i'd probably fall into a post-hype-shock coma


thank you for coming to my TED Talk, I do not accept constructive criticism

nomination: Octoling (Splatoon 2 Octo Expansion) x5

 

[fogbadge]

and then there's KH3's secret ending.

which has been confirmed to be unconnected to neku

 

[Xenigma]

Don't put words in my mouth. I said anybody who uses the statement "Literally who?" unironically can be described like that. You just assumed I was referring specifically to Reimu because the statement is most infamously attributed to Reimu detractors. Because saying "Literally who?" implies that you haven't even bothered to look it up. Doesn't matter if it's Reimu or somebody else, if you use that two-word phrase, you didn't do the research. That's fact.

I literally quoted you, and I think I made a very fair assumption given most of your post was about Reimu, not to mention the phrase "Literally who?" being immediately preceded by the words "she's not a". In any case, I'm here for Smash speculation, not to argue semantics, so I'll simply agree that speculation based on zero research is bad and leave it at that.

 

[PLANTMAN]

Overrated:
1. Rex - purely chances wise here, I don't hate the character, but I feel like people think he's almost a lock after ARMS got a second chance in the roster with Min Min. I'd beg to differ in that while Sakurai mentioned ARMS and XC2 were too late for base initially, Min Min doesn't necessarily guarantee Rex or a XC2 character. Plus, in my honest opinion they wouldn't have made Rex a bonus costume for Pass 1 if they wanted to make him playable later, otherwise the ARMS DLC would have been Spring Man (Assist Trophy in base) or Ribbon Girl (costume in base). Min Min had a Spirit and nothing more, no music from ARMS either. There is XC2 music in base; not a lot, but still incriminating imo. tl;dr - Min Min doesn't guarantee Rex, that's my two cents.

Underrated:
3. Elma - people say "X was the least popular Xenoblade" or "X isn't on Switch (yet) so why should I care?" wrt popularity, I think the Wii U screwed it over and it could benefit from a second chance on the Switch (with Elma as promotional Smash DLC to tie in). Her moveset would flow like butter with switching from dual swords and dual guns on the fly; Overdrive could be a potential mechanic; and there's NO X music, and the unlock conditions of her Spirit are a bit suspicious....

so what if spring man or ribbon girl didn’t get in or there’s no arms music(they don’t need to put in a track for series with no fighters) Rex didn’t need any of that to make him possible again. He already was and always will be as a standard 50/50. and he’ll prob be the one they’ll go for.(or fiora I’ll get to that later)
as for elma

“She’ll be a promotional tie in for the x port“
ok 1.thats not how promoting a game works
2.its less likley to come than you think, and by that I mean less likley to come during ultimates dlc lifespan at the end of 2021
3.name me one character that promoted their Wii U game being ported to the switch...I’ll wait

“there’s no xbx music”
Ok That’s like the first thing they say when they talk elma. missing content =////= they will become A dlc in the future

They just didn’t care or maybe it was licensing issues who knows

“her spirit unlock conditions are a bit suspicious”

Ok that...makes no sense

I say that elma is the one overrated around here & Rex...I just say he’s fairly rated in the middle, sure yeah many people expect him because of arms & sakurais words but there are many others that doubt him because of his mii outfit so it’s a 50/50 in rating how much people see him or not

 

[MisterMike]

Oh boy, this'll end well, I'm sure. Now I'll stress right here that my assessment of these characters being overrated does not reflect my opinions of these characters. Most if not all of these characters are ones I'd generally be fine with getting in Smash, even if I don't particularly care about any of them.

-= Overrated =-
5 - Elma
Now while I haven't played Xenoblade Chronicles X, I've heard great things about it and I'm perfectly willing to take their word for it that it's a great game. That being said, I have no idea why there are as many people who unironically believe Elma will make it in as DLC as there are, especially considering what they're up against: Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was a massive success, both critically and commerically, Rex & Pyra are considerably more popular than Elma with fans, with the former two topping many Japanese fan polls, and Sakurai even expressed that he would've included Rex as a fighter in the base game if he could've.

I mean, I get being hopeful for your most wanted, and I definitely respect the hustle, but those are some real big hurdles to overcome and I don't believe Elma's legs are long enough to clear them.

4 - Dante™ from the Devil May Cry™ series
Dante is a character I'm somewhat conflicted on. On the one hand, I think he'd be a great addition to Smash and I wouldn't be surprised if he made it in. On the other hand, he's a character whose demand for Smash feels very artificial to me due to the dircumstances surrounding his newfound popularity. Back during the Smash 4 days, I had heard him suggested for Smash a few times here and there, but it never really got particularly big akin to the likes of King K. Rool, Shantae or even Dixie Kong. This was also true during the lead up to Smash Ultimate, with Dante yet again taking a backseat to other, more popular names like Skull Kid, Shovel Knight or Bandana Waddle Dee.

But then the DLC cycle began, and a bunch of stuff started happening: Kamiya comes out with a poll about which of his characters people would want in Smash, and Dante won by a landslide. One of the lead developers stated that Dante should probably have some games on the Switch before he gets into Smash, and then shortly afterwards DmC was announced for Switch, followed by DmC 2 and 3 shortly after. People began to believe that, because these things were happening, that Dante was now more likely to join Smash.

Now while I'd like to believe that this sudden groundswell of support was simply a large collective of DmC fans rising up after several long years of silence to show their support for their most wanted character, I can't help but find it more likely that it's a bunch of people bandwagoning behind Dante because a bunch of **** came out that could indicate that he's coming to Smash soon and they want to be right about who's coming to Smash. Now I'm not saying that everyone who wants Dante is a bandwagoner, and maybe I'm completely wrong here, but it really feels like that to me, y'know? Like, this character didn't have anywhere near as much support back in the day or even during the lead up to Ultimate, but then all this stuff comes out and suddenly he's considered a lock? Get the **** outta here.

And since we're on this topic...

3 - Recency Bias (Not really a character, but uhh... shut up)
Now don't get me wrong, this isn't me acting like a cynical old man complaining about those dang new characters people want solely because they're new, nor am I advocating for shouting down new fanbases from forming. Rather, this is me complaining about the phenomena that seems to occour with Smash fans time and time again. Basically, whenever a game is announced for the Switch, an announcement regarding a game is happening soon, or rumors spring up that suggest that a game could be coming to the Switch, loads of people begin running with the idea that one of that game's characters will, or at the very least could, be coming to Smash.

• Overwatch is coming to Switch? OmG tRaCeR cOnFiRmEd?!
• Devil May Cry news dropping on the same day as the next Sakurai Presents? dAnTe CoMiN' tO sMaHs BoYs It'S hApPeNiNg!1
• Astral Chain is a thing? DuDe We'Re GeTtIn' AkIrA iN sMaSh!1
• New Pokemon game exist? bAbOoM, gUeSs WhO's StEpPeD iN tHe RoOm!1
• BotW 2 and/or HW:AoC get announced? wE gOt TwO zElDa'S, iT's TiMe FoR a ThIrD1!
• Ring Fit Adventure has literally just been revealed a few minutes ago? RiNg FiT gIrL cOnFiRmEd!1

Not every character who has a new game/port coming to the Switch is more likely to join Smash by virtue of that alone, and I'd very much appreciate it if people would stop perpetuating this ****ty, overplayed meme.

2 - A Gen VIII Pokemon, specifically Rillaboom
Now to be fair to the people who push this asinine idea, it does sound rather logical from the business side of things: Pokemon is an incredibly popular franchise, and despite their lacking in quality, content and... really anything that resembles a fun gameplay experience for core fans, Sword & Shield and their respective DLC sold like gangbusters, so it'd make sense to include a character from the new generation in Smash to promote them. And it's not like it would be entirely out of the realm of possibility, either. After all, we got Byleth as the last fighter of Fighters Pass Vol. 1 despite everyone's protests, so it stands to reason they could do it again with the other most overrepresented franchise in Smash.

But then I remember that we've gotten three of the biggest () NEVER () EVER () characters in Smash history with this one game and I begin to seriously wonder why people believe a Gen VIII Pokemon is as likely as they think it is. Now I'm not saying it's impossible that we'll get a Gen VIII Pokemon in Vol. 2, because it's clearly not. But to unironically believe that something like this is not only the best we're going to get from this DLC, but something you'd actually want for DLC? And it gets even worse when you factor in the numerous "MUH TRIFECTA!" people, who want this potential new Pokemon to be Rillaboom solely so they can have a fully evolved Grass-Fire-Water Starter trio. Because I know when I'm asking for characters for Smash, I do so as a way to fit a quota, rather than because I actually like the character I'm rooting for.

1 - Sora
I don't think I've ever seen a single character who's more overrated than Sora. While I agree that he's a popular character request for Smash, I think a lot of people greatly overestimate his chances. Not only do they unironically believe that Nintendo having with work with both SquareEnix and Disney to get him in isn't a challenge whatsoever, but that it's somehow easier for them to do that than it is for them to simply work with SquareEnix to get someone like Geno or 2B.

There's also the point that, at least from what I know about Kingdom Hearts, Sora's moveset would be kind of boring. A lot of his fighting style is either swinging around kis keyblade, firing energy shots from said keyblade, and using big, flashy Disneyland rides to attack foes, and I have a hard time trying to work that into a decent moveset. At best he'd just be another version of Cloud, which doesn't sound all too interesting. Speaking of, I remember someone linked me to HMK's video for Sora in order to give me an idea of how he'd play from someone who's actually played the game, and his idea for Sora's moveset was basically just a mix of Cloud and Hero with Bayonetta combos.

-= Underrated =-
5 - Dixie Kong
While discussion about her isn't as frequent these days, the demand for Dixie hasn't really disappeared, even after King K. Rool got in. While I don't believe she'll make it as DLC, I really hope Dixie Kong eventually joins Smash some day.

4 - Isaac
Despite not being as discussed anymore as he was before Ultimate's release, I still believe Isaac would be a great addition to the roster. He's got a lot to work with for a moveset, and while I don't think he'll be getting in as DLC this time around, I hope he gets in eventually.

3 - Any Sony Character
With all of this talk about third party characters, it's amazing to me how few people even consider a Sony character. While their own Smash-styled venture didn't work out so well, I still think they've got a great selection of characters to pick from: Ratchet & Clank, Jak & Daxter, Sly Cooper, Kratos, ****in' KNACK, Nathan Drake, Joel, Sackboy, the list goes on. Sure, not all of these are the most iconic characters around, and from past precedent Sony doesn't seem like they'd be the most cooperative, but it's still a possibility I believe people should consider.

2 - Waluigi
Everybody likes to **** on Waluigi. "Oh, he's just a forced meme that will never make it into Smash!" But there's really something to be said about a character who, despite being made into an Assist Trophy three games in a row, still finds immense popularity and demand in spite of that. After the Spirits fanrule was demolished with the arrival of Min Min, I legit wouldn't be surprised if Waluigi joined the fight by the end of this DLC.

1 - Gex
You knew it was coming. Gex is easily the most underrated character for Smash. He's got skill, he's got style, he's got a ****in' tail, he can climb on walls and ceilings like it's nothing, and he's save the world more times than I can count. His games have an incredible soundtrack, and his stage variety is insanely rich thanks to the numerous locales inspired by only the finest of classic cinema.

There's really no denying it at this point: Doom is a violent game series.

FINALLY, SOMEONE ****ING SAID IT.

 

[SharkLord]

I swear, if I see someone using moveset potential as a reason for or against someone's inclusion one more time, I am going to commit defenestration.

...On second though, maybe I shouldn't. I kinda like having a window. But seriously, if Nintendo wants a character, they'll put them in. If Sakurai thinks he can make someone work, he'll make them work. You can like the idea of what someone's moveset could be like, but that doesn't go anywhere beyond personal opinion. Perceived moveset potential has nothing to do with likelihood.

...Listing overrated characters was a mistake.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Top five overrated:

#5: Doomguy.
While guns aren't as much of a concern as they once were, and as much as I'd love to see this happen, interviews have pretty much all but ruled him out. That goes for both sides. From what I've read, Sakurai hasn't indicated much in favor of him getting in at this point, and the devs over at Bethesda indicated that their talks with Nintendo didn't go very far. And that their Doomguy isn't likely to join the battle. That pretty much covers it.

#4: Dante.
A lot of f people seem to think highly of this one, or did at some point, but despite being in countless fake leaks, I don't personally see there being much evidence his favor. At this point he seems like a somewhat popular but very unlikely pick.

#3: Shantae.

Despite having a good relationship with Nintendo, I don't think Shantae's got it that good. She's from a smaller (though far from unknown) Indie series and if Shovel Knight is anything to go by, such characters aren't likely to make the cut as full-fledged fighters. There's no precedent for Indie third-parties making the cut as playable characters, either, which doesn't help her case at all. There's a first for everything, but there's little reason to believe that any Indie rep is particularly likely to get in as anything greater than an Assist Trophy or a high quality Mii costume, and Shantae is no exception.

#2: KOS-MOS.
I truly feel that is a bandwagon character who's support is slowly but surely fading away. Nothing outside of a fake leak or two has stirred up much real discussion on her, yet she's a name I see get brought up a lot.

#1: Geno.

Does he have a large fanbase? Yes.

Does he have a lot of support? Also yes.

Does Sakurai want him in? At one point, the man pretty much outright stated that even tried to make Geno happen. So yes.

Problem is communications with Square, but there's also something else to consider, here.

The thing about Geno is that he's, as TV Tropes puts it, an Ensemble Darkhorse. A minor or supporting character in a work of fiction who, for varying reasons, gets either a cult following or a very large and dedicated fanbase. Geno fits the bill perfectly. He's a supporting character in a single 90s Mario RPG game, and that's it. He got one cameo outside of it in another RPG, and he hasn't really been seen since.

Yet despite this, the character seems to have left a huge impact on fans of the game.

Fanart and discussion of Geno is surprisingly abundant. If you go back in time, you're likely to find him in a lot of fan animations on Youtube, Newgrounds and the like, at least in those from 2005 to 2008 or so. He may not be the biggest Smash pick ever, but he's far from unheard of at all. Watch the Nintendo NYC video on the crowd's reaction to Piranha Plant's reveal, and you'll hear plenty of audience members jumping to conclusions and shouting "GENO!" before the real newcomer is revealed.

Despite all of this...At the end of the day, Geno is still just that. An Ensemble Darkhorse. And one who appears in only a single video game that was released decades ago. Why Geno is even the one Ensemble Darkhorse candidate of Nintendo's characters to have this much support for Smash remains something of a mystery to me, but I still don't think he's well-known enough for Nintendo or Square to consider it at this point, because again, at the end of the day, his fanbase may be large and vocal, but he's still a darkhorse from a single decades-old video game. Nintendo's the one calling the shots on the roster right now, and they marketing and mutual company benefits in mind in addition to just picking good characters to bring in more third-party franchises into this celebration of gaming.

Sakurai may wanted Geno to join the battle, at least once, but he's hardly in control of the roster anymore, and I really don't know why Nintendo would think of or agree to bringing this Esnemble Darkhorse into the franchise when there are so many other more recognizable faces out there to pick from, and I highly doubt Square really has him in mind with all that considered, either. He'd get in for the sake of pleasing one support base, and little else. And right now, I just don't see that outcome as being particularly likely.

Top five underrated:

#5: Reimu.

I'm not even a fan of this series but I can see the impact it's made. And yet talk about her doesn't seem to have picked up until somewhat recently. Reimu's in an odd spot when it comes to support. Touhou is a big deal in Japan and has gradually made it's rounds in the West as well, but when it comes to Smash there only seems to be so much talk about Reimu. Would I call her likely? I'm not sure, but I think if anything her support level and purpoted chances fall much closer to being underrated or middle ground than overrated.

If people were hailing her as the next big third-party, I'd call her overrated instead, but that's not the case. And even then, she still wouldn't be overrated to the extent of most of the others on my above list.

#4: Spyro.
This guy's one of the biggest western icons of platform gaming. I just think that Crash overshadows him a little too much, with plenty of people calling Crash the next big third-party newcomer while Spyro gets swept under the rug. He's worth speculating and discussing more than he has been, at the very least.

#3: A Valve newcomer.
While Valve has never had much of a professional relationship with Nintendo, Gabe Newell was inspired by Super Mario 64, to the extent that it led him to believe that video games were art. Meanwhile, Sakurai has praised Half-Life as an important video game. So there's definitely grounds for a business relationship between the two companies to begin, as late as it may be.

If it's gonna be anyone, I'd bank on it being the Heavy from Team Fortress 2, or Gordon Freeman. Unlike Doomguy, I don't believe the latter has been more or directly less ruled out through interviews or developer statements yet, and Half-Life is just about as iconic and important to the FPS Genre as DOOM is, with the original game having made major new contributions to the genre that have stuck with many a First-Person Shooter to follow it, as well as later games (mainly Half-Life 2) breaking new ground for video games in general at many points. DOOM 3, an entry from a franchise that released before and pioneered the FPS genre well before Half-Life was and broke new ground for it, even paid homage to the original game in it's entry and entire premise.

As for the Heavy, well, as sparse as updates may be, the TF2 community and playerbase are still running quite strong despite the game being over a decade old, and the mercenaries are practically iconic in their own right, with the Heavy in particular pretty much serving as the face of the game. Again, guns aren't so much of an issue anymore, and despite the game's violence, it's cartoony nature and style makes a character like Heavy even more flexible for Smash than Gordon or Doomguy, imo. Most of the guns in the game aren't realistic, and neither are their visual effects. You could easily have him bust out his iconic Minigun or even a shotgun just as easily as Bayonetta busts out her own dual handguns, and I don't think there's any problem there. Talk about Heavyi s slowly picking up, partly thanks to a surprising poll, but I don't think it's quite there yet. Same goes for Gordon, who, despite being all-but completely silent of a protagonist who's rarely, if ever, seen in-game, is an extremely iconic character as well.

#2: Tetra.

I'm going to try my best to not be biased, here, but yes, I firmly believe that she's the one major Zelda character who's not being discussed enough right now. Everyone talks about the Champions or Skull Kid instead (and mind I wouldn't be opposed to either; I actually want Skull Kid almost as much as I want Tetra) and Tetra is among the characters rather beingleft in their shadow. I have seen quite a fair amount of support for her, though, even outside of here, but it's not as vocal as others are, and again, the Champions seem to be the one overtaking Zelda talk right now. It doesn't help that people have their doubts on any Zelda newcomer happening to begin with.

If I had more time, I'd write an essay on evidence in and against Tetra's favor and her ultimate chances, but in the meantime my thread for her has collected plenty of arguments and evidence in her favor, especially from fellow supporters of the character. I'll say this much in this thread: Nintendo clearly sees the "toon"-styled Link and Zelda as marketable, using them in many advertisements and promotions alongside other Nintendo icons, adding them both (including both Tetra and one of the Toon Zeldas) to Hyrule Warriors (the 3DS version even added an entire WW campaign) and reusing the "toon" designs and aesthetics for several games in the series, even some that aren't directly linked (pun not intended) to the Wind Waker. Plus, A Toon Zelda and "Toon Sheik" of some sort were planned for Brawl, so as far as I'm concerned, at least one always had a chance of being revisited at a future time, just like Dixie Kong and the other cut characters from Brawl do.

#1: Waluigi.

Keeping this last one short but sweet. The demand for the man in purple has been high for a long time, it's been steadily increasing over the years, it's probably been at it's highest in the days of Smash Ultimate speculation, and he isn't an Ensemble Darkhorse to Geno's extent since he's been extremely prominent in Mario spin-offs for decades, now. Fan works such as Brawl in the Family's take on him and mods for Brawl and Smash 4 that turn him into a full-fledged unique playable fighter only aided his popularity and/or reinforce this.

if anyone is gonna get the promotion from Assist Trophy to playable Fighter at this rate, he's the most likely one, bar none.

Nominations: Tetra x10

 

[Door Key Pig]

I never brought moveset potential when it came to likeness. I brought up regional problem. It's a fact that Reimu has worse regional problem than Chief does. Japanese anime studios were involved in producing Halo anime. It sold decently in Japan. There was actually a professional Japanese Halo team that beat Bungie back in Halo 2 days.
I looked through various Reimu moveset not to be bias, but I'm not convinced what you are saying is true.

Are you sure about that? Because looking it up on VGChartz I remembered it couldn't even crack over 100,000 on a title there or something.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Are you sure about that? Because looking it up on VGChartz I remembered it couldn't even crack over 100,000 on a title there or something.

VGChartz isn't a reliable source of sales data.

 

[fogbadge]

I don't think I've ever seen a single character who's more overrated than Sora. While I agree that he's a popular character request for Smash, I think a lot of people greatly overestimate his chances. Not only do they unironically believe that Nintendo having with work with both SquareEnix and Disney to get him in isn't a challenge whatsoever, but that it's somehow easier for them to do that than it is for them to simply work with SquareEnix to get someone like Geno or 2B.

heres the thing, sora is owned solely by disney and they wouldnt have to work with SE at all

 

[YoshiandToad]

#4: Spyro.
This guy's one of the biggest western icons of platform gaming. I just think that Crash overshadows him a little too much, with plenty of people calling Crash the next big third-party newcomer while Spyro gets swept under the rug. He's worth speculating and discussing more than he has been, at the very least.

Regarding Spyro; he likely gets overlooked due to his miniscule presence in Japan.

I'm sure you probably know this as a Spyro fan, but Spyro and Spyro 2 got horrifically butchered in the Japanese version between the charge move being slowed down to barely faster than walking, the camera actively being made worse for some reason, and most bizarrely of all, removing Sparx's colours which indicate how much health you have left. So like...you don't know if you can take four hits or two hits before death. Great work guys.

The third title never made it to Japanese shores as a result of the poor sales of the first two titles and Skylanders, the whole Toys to Life starter, never made it to Japan either, so that's yet another significant moment for Spyro that Japan didn't experience.

The Reignited Trilogy did make it over there and sold...well given all the above, but it seems like Activision never localised it into Japanese for some strange reason, and even better, didn't advertise that there was no Japanese translation on any of the digital store fronts. I can't even find if there was a physical release of the game over there...

I really wish Spyro had done better in Japan. He's easily one of my favourite platforming stars right after Mario and Sonic.

 

[Door Key Pig]

VGChartz isn't a reliable source of sales data.

What is then for Japan Halo (or just general VG) sales?

 

[MisterMike]

heres the thing, sora is owned solely by disney and they wouldnt have to work with SE at all

Yeah, but in order to use Sora ,or any Kingdom Hearts content, Disney asks for Nomura's permission as a courtesy, so they still have to work with SquareEnix.

 

[Lyncario]

Yeah, but in order to use Sora ,or any Kingdom Hearts content, Disney asks for Nomura's permission as a courtesy, so they still have to work with SquareEnix.

SE aren't hard to work with, it's just that FF7 has ridiculous copyright from non SE owners and DQ has a very despicable human being as a composer that hates letting anyone but himself use his tracks.

 

[GoodGrief741]

What is then for Japan Halo (or just general VG) sales?

There isn't any reliable source for videogame sales aside from what the devs or publishers report, and that doesn't happen too often. At best, we have secondary information for Halo, stuff like Halo 3 topping charts when it was released, stuff like that.

 

[Perkilator]

Can we please move on?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Disney is an odd company to really predict, because Sora being allowed into Smash feels like a given, but some of the conditional elements to him feel like the trickier wild card to speculate on.

 

[Mr. MR]

Disney is an odd company to really predict, because Sora being allowed into Smash feels like a given, but some of the conditional elements to him feel like the trickier wild card to speculate on.

I agree. He's definitely the most requested character when comparing all regions and I don't think Sakurai would refuse if Disney asked. The problem is will Disney ask for Sora. Does Disney even care?

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, but in order to use Sora ,or any Kingdom Hearts content, Disney asks for Nomura's permission as a courtesy, so they still have to work with SquareEnix.

do you have a source for this? cause to my knowledge theyve done several things with KH without ever having asked normua. even then asking a single person if they think something is a good idea is hardly going to be a problem especially when its someone who was fine with another of his characters getting in