Rate Their Chances - Smash Ultimate Edition! Day 672: Five Most Likely First and Third Parties for Smash 6, and Final Goodbyes

[3DSNinja]

Abstaining as well.

Noms: Shuichi Saihara x5.

 

[warpenguin55]

Abstain. Never heard of this game or character.

Noms: Alex Mason x5

 

[DanganZilla5]

I actually know this guy thanks to Projared

Chance: 0.10%

I do give Brian a very slight benefit of the doubt because according to Wikipedia it was the first RPG released for the N64 in the U.S and the game was praised for pushing the envelope when it came to graphics. That and the fact that all of his games were for Nintendo systems only. With that said though, that's all the positives I have for him. Quest 64 ended up getting mixed reviews and while it did get two spinoffs, the sequel was cancelled. The last game released was about 20 years ago and there seems to be no future games in sight so we are dealing with a dead series and unlike Banjo, I don't hear an uproar for Brian to be included.

So overall I'm still giving Brian an extremely low score. Despite his positives he is not the type of character that makes sense for a playable spot. I can't imagine Nintendo being interested in him and I'm not sure if even Sakurai would be interested in him. Sure Brian has Nintendo history and his game showed that RPGs could run on the N64, but he needs more than that to have a good reason to be in Smash. Maybe there is something I'm missing, but for now I'm not convinced we will see him in this game.

Want: 1%

Usually my want scores for these lower pantheon characters boil down to how much personal history I have with them and how cool I think they could be. In both of these cases.....yeah no. My biggest connection to Quest 64 is from Projared's video and while Brian could have an interesting moveset, I'm not interested in having this character be chosen as one of the last 5 characters. There are probably over a 100 characters I would put in before Brian. No offense to him or his fans, but I would be disappointed if he got in.

Predictions (I'm tired so I will just spew out educated numbers, like as if I don't already do that)
Helix - 15%
Max Brass - 9%
Misango - 12%
ARMS rep has different characters as alts - 20% (I do believe in this theory, but people will think of it as just regular alts instead of unique alts, which would not be an accurate portrayal of the characters as each character has their own special moves, thus low scores)

As for noms, get ready for my new nominee. He is a doozy. He is the type of guy that will throw a party while at the same time fight bad guys. He went from being a member of a gang to being the president of the U.S and fighting off aliens with super powers. He is the main character of the Saints Row series...

The Boss x25 (or however many extra noms I have plus the ones from today)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Have an icon too!

Time for a history lesson!

Quest 64 is one of ten different games total among the various game carts within the series. Namely the name of the US game.

• Quest 64(US): The first release, rushed so it'd be out as fast as possible. This is retooled from the Japanese language beta.
• Holy Magic Century(UK English, French, and German): All 3 came out a bit later in European regions. They are unchanged beyond language as is.
• Eltale Monsters(Japanese): This is the second game with a gameplay change that is major. Things like critical hits, readable signs, extra story, and other various tidbits that heavily improve the aesthetics and other various changes. Most important one is that items can be dropped till you have 3 of each.
• Quest Fantasy Challenge(US): The next game to release is a Game Boy one where it's a puzzle take, retooled for English release from Mr. Do!, including more enemies and weapon variety.
• Holy Magic Century(A multi-language option single game): Same as Quest Fantasy Challenge, but with different languages. ...That's the difference. Did not release in Japan.
• Quest(RPG): Brian's Journey(US): The next new Gameboy game. This is a demake of Quest 64, but includes some of Eltale Monsters' differences, like readable signs and more story. Still suffers from having meh characterization and the story isn't that much improved overall. Sound takes a massive hit too. It also is the first game to allow no limitation on how many items can be dropped in general(though your inventory drops from 150 to a measly 20 in return) but also has a new key item section and a separate one for Wings as well.
• Elemental Tale - Jack no Daibouken: Daimaou no Gyakushuu(Japanese): Otherwise known as Elemental Tale - Jack's Great Adventure: Satan's Counterattack. This is yet another redo of the gameplay, making it the third new change. Due to the Gameboy nature, you can't do more than slowly walk. Now you can run in a town. You're able to finally shuffle items, as well as remove them from your inventory without using them. Enemies can now aim attacks up or down instead of only left to right(guess what you can't do?)
• Quest 64(Spanish): I'll clarify I don't perfectly know the details on this one. It was apparently an iQue game in Mexico, and it's identical to the US version bar some names changed. A lot of words, including character names in most(all? I didn't fully do this one myself, so I forget, but monster names are unchanged) are kept the same. My playing suggests it's just a bootleg translation as it's treated as the same save file as regular Quest 64. Unlike the 3 Holy Magic Century N64 games, which have their own save files. Without owning a copy, I have no hard access to things like its numbering on its cart.

Finally, throughout the series, Brian's name has changed. He's Brian in all the US versions. In Holy Magic Century, he's known as Ayron, and his Japanese names are Jean-Jacques and then Jack in order of release. Satan is however not exactly a rename for Mammon either in Jack no Daibouken, as his name is unchanged in the game. It may however still refer to him, as Mammon is also one of the seven related names to Satan, so.

Now that the history lesson is over, here's a few set of costumes to see what he looks like.

Spoiler: Brian in his polygonal and other spriteful glory!

This is quick recolors using his Quest RPG/Jack no Daibouken design. 6th costume is default.

Despite the ironic wording, this is recolors using his official artwork(which is pasted on multiple games in intros/manuals. ...I admit I poorly did this one. The final costume does look pretty awful. First costume is default.

A new pixel art done by a user and not official artwork. I retooled it by adding more to the feet, the cape, removing the shadow, and giving him new brooches. The first costume here is the default design.

Now for the fun part, the ratings!

Chances: With multiple things on my mind, I can't help but give it a ghost of a chance, if only because being dead may not entirely matter. While the franchise is entirely unused by its home company nor Nintendo, it's impossible to gauge if it had a slight set of votes on the ballot. Combined with being a very unique character with at least 60 spells, possibly very easy to negotiate with Imagineer since they don't do gaming anymore... and I'd give a 1%. My original was 0%, but this isn't a non-game character, and he is the core protagonist of a series which still shot out 10 total games(5 of which have unique stuff beyond language changes alone).

Want: 100%. Many are already aware of how big of a fan I am of this character. Now to be fair, you can only tell by my signatures over the years since I've had over 20 name changes since I got Premium around 5 or so years ago. Brian is the first RPG character created for the Nintendo 64. The closest otherwise was when FFVII was going to be on the 64 but scrapped, so only Cloud beats him out a little. Everybody else came a lot later(And Ocarina of Time is not really an RPG, but more of an Action Adventure game). While we do have RPG characters regardless(Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Hero), we lack two things among this all; the ability to change equipment mid-battle(this is slightly there with Robin's sword breaking, but it's not a specific mechanic of upgrading to new weapons either)... which Brian can't do. However, the other thing we have, and more importantly, an important thing for a general RPG, is leveling up. This hero is well known for being able to level up beyond just battling for levels. His Hit Points, Magic Points, Agility, and Defense can rise just by playing the game. Getting hit, moving around, hitting enemies with the staff, and casting magic all add to your experience. Defeating monsters in battle gives you experience too for your 4 elements. And unlike with most games, to reach 50 in each, you need to actually find 98 floating spirits in the overworld. N64 games only, mind you.

Lucario slightly has a mechanic of gaining more powerful attacks due to taking damage. But this is not actually leveling up. It's a similar idea, but executed in an entirely different way. Brian himself has 15 spells per the 4 elements of Fire, Earth, Water, and Wind. This can allow for increases in damage. Now, Hero does have a similar mechanic to what Brian can use, which is charging a spell to use a more powerful level of it(Fire Ball Lv 1 - Fire Ball Lv 2 - Fire Ball Lv 3), but he also has more than 4 spells that do this either way. Not that all can work. Obviously a spell that reveals your opponent's hits points, element, and stats is worthless in a fighting game. So while he has 60 spells, some have to go. I'd imagine he might use a few boss spells to fill out parts of the moveset. And due to Quest 64's own gameplay, you can assign buttons and create a Pokemon Change-like ability for elements, where Forward B can have 4 different ones, for Fire, Earth, Water, and Wind. Let me list one moveset I've worked on, that implements Element Change and Element Charge. Element Charge is using your specific elemental moves to increase its level(I went with a max of 15 levels per element. I did not finish the experience or exact percentage rates at this time).

Spoiler: The Elemental Master

Down B: Elemental Change. (Fire > Earth > Water > Wind(repeat))
B: Power Staff Lv 1/Confusion/Invalidity/Evade Lv 1
Up B: Red Wings/Yellow Wings/Blue Wings/Green Wings
Forward B: Magma Ball/Rolling Rock/Cyclone/Walking Water
R: Restriction Lv 1
Neutral A/A during Throw: Staff Strike
Throws:
-Up: Serpentfire Arrow/Earth Blast/Homing Bubble/Wind Shrieker
-Down: Fire Globe/Gui Punch/Water Globe/Sound Laser
-Foward/Backward: Fire Bomb/Rolling Rock/Walking Water/Wind Walk
A: Staff Swing
AA: Staff Slice
AAA: Staff Upper
Dash A: Staff Spinner
Dash Animation: Running Forward with staff out, like readying a samurai saber
Smash Forward: Fireball/Rock/Bubble/Wind Cutter
Smash Down: Hot Steam/Earth Spikes/Ice Wall/Wind Wall
Smash Up: Fire Pillar/Magnet Rock/Water Pillar/Large Cutter
Aerial(s)
-Neutral: Hot Steam/Magnet Rock/Ice Wall/Wind Wall
-Directional: Homing Arrow/Rock Shower/Ice Knife/Ultimate Wind(all as stabbing moves)
Tilts: Compression/Weakness Lv 1/Drain Magic/Slow Enemy
Final Smash 1: Maximum Element
Final Smash 2: Elemental Ensemble(First the enemy gets blown near together, then they're frozen solid with ice, next comes a huge fireball from the sky, with a giant rock falling on 'em, sending them away a bit, depending their current damage)

It'd take a while to explain each, but the idea is every animation is similar in some way. In addition, the ability to attack twice with his neutral A is from Eltale Monsters, the only game where you can perform two staff attacks. The tilts have a status effect in itself,. Maximum Element just sets you to 15 in each element for a while. I do not have all the details mapped out here.

Spoiler: Here's a DLC template, showing off some of my images I have, his universe symbol, an even a stage I made!

Here's some small information on the spirits, from left to right;

• Legend: Epona, Mammon
• Ace: Red Wyvern(evolves from Wyvern), Ogre, Pinhead, Red Rose Knight(evolves from White Rose Knight)
• Advanced: Fish Man, Wyvern(evolves to Red Wyvern), Blue Man, Cockatrice, Ghosthound(evolves from Hell Hound), White Rose Knight(evolves to Red Rose Knight), Caterpillar
• Novice: Bumbershoot, Big Mouth, Frog King, Maneater, Parassault, Were Hare, Hell Hound(evolves to Ghosthound).

--------------

Predictions:

Helix: 2%
Max Brass: 20%
Misango: 1%
Concept ARMS character has alts of other characters: 40%

Noms: Concept Spirit Promotions x 5

 

[amageish]

Brian

Chance: 1%. I don't know if there is anything I can say that the artist formally known as Moptimus Prime didn't say before me, but I'll go ahead anyway. Brain has an interesting legacy as an early Nintendo 64 JRPG with a unique development cycle, but his franchise is very dead right now. If Smash Brothers was a literal museum of gaming history, then I could see this being one of the exhibits; however, it tends to celebrate more successful games and less "firsts," with a few key (first-party) exceptions. Without a tonne of active fan demand, I can't see Brian making it over other more successful games in his genre.

Want: 51%. Honestly, Brian would be kind of cool just from the gaming history angle. I also would like the pattern of somewhat off-the-beaten path throwback characters to move past the NES library.... I don't have a personal attachment to him, but I'd definitely be smiling if I saw Brian got in Smash.

Predictions: Helix: 30% / Max Brass: 30% / Misango: 3% / Concept of Character Alts: 40%. I'm not exactly looking forward to the debate about alts; I already ran away from the ARMS thread to hide from it...

Nominations: Moogle x 5. Yes, I'm really doing this. All Hail King Mog.

 

[NintenRob]

Another Abstain

Nominate content from currently unreleased game x5

Predictions

Helix 8%
Max Brass 41%
Misango 0%
Character alts 51%

 

[Simnm]

Abstain
Noms:steve(rerate)×5

 

[Lyncario]

Brian from Quest 64

Chance: 0.5%
Quest 64 is a game that exist and look nice. But it's also over 20 years old and never got a sequel. It does not seem like Br8an has a chance.

Want: 2%?
I barely know anything about Quest 64, but he's a mage, so he could maybe be fun. The gameplay I looked at did not really convince all that much, unlike the Terry gameplay I looked at when the SNK leak hapened.

Arms prediction:
Helix - 11%
Max Brass - 30%
Misango - 1.4%
Arms with alts- is going to get way too high despite how it would not work, so 60%

 

[fogbadge]

i have never heard of this game

abstain and nominate nate adams x5 again

 

[Neosonic97]

Double abstain here. Never heard of the game nor the character, and thus I'm not educated enough to give a solid rating. From what I've researched, though, the people behind Quest 64 don't even do computer games any more?

Noms: Terrarian x5

 

[Sari]

Brian

Chance: 0%
Character from an obscure N64 game that got poor reviews upon release. The series has been dead for a long time and hasn't gotten much since the original title apart from two spin-offs for the GBC which also didn't do that well. There are just so much bigger fish for Sakurai to choose from.

Want: Abstain
Never played Quest 64 (or even heard of it outside of SmashBoards) so I'll abstain.

Predictions:
Helix: 15.00%
Max Brass: 15.00%
Misango: 7.00%
Different characters: 45.00%

Nominations:
Rex [Rerate] x5

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

Brian look out
Double zeroes, this series is dead and doesn't seem fondly remembered, having a cookie cutter narrative and a tedious level up system. Moptimus mentioned there being ten games but what he listed really just sounds like three games with multilangual versions with minor differences to me. Can't imagine this being chosen anyhow, seems like Spirit material at best.

Helix: 9.42%
Max Brass: 17.67%
Misango: 3.92%
ARMS with alts: 39.55%
Captain Toad x5

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

El brayan.

Chance:1%

He's a video game character............that's it. Quest 64 is dead, the game wasn't even that good from what i have heard. I mean yeah, it was one of the few JRPGS for the Nintendo 64, but when Cloud makes into Smash you know that means jack squat. NO real reason to choose him over the plethora of Nintendo or Third Party choices we have.

Want:0%

Normally im not harsh towards characters unless there's a major reason for me to do so, but in this case there's not a major reason to be supportive of this character. I have not heard good things about Quest 64, nor do i see a major/minor movement towards the franchise's revival like other series like Golden Sun, for example.

As for Bryan himself? Look buddy, i love me some underdogs, but for me the underdog shouldn't under the ground if you know what i mean.

Noms: Bonus Character X5 (individual character DLC similar to Piranha Plant, no stage or music or spirit board, just the character)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Moptimus mentioned there being ten games but what he listed really just sounds like three games with multilangual versions with minor differences to me. Can't imagine this being chosen anyhow, seems like Spirit material at best.

It's best to say I didn't describe Eltale Monsters well enough then. The gameplay is massively changed up with a lot of major additions. Max Brian literally has a ton of projectiles added from any spell with 2 or more projectiles, enough that it lock up the game if an enemy acts before the spell ends. Meaning that using your best stuff is not a good idea all the time. This is a core difference in how you play it. ...Of course, if you're maxed out, you already won, but still. Critical Hits matter a lot as they change the flow of battle where you or the Monster can win far more quickly than normal. The double attack allows you to hit twice with your massively overpowered staff, so you can take down bosses in half the time if not faster with critical hits in mind. None of these are aesthetic differences or irrelevant like being able to... read signs. It's cute to know your stat goes up by showing a colored aura, but not that big of a deal.

I should also mention that having more items that can drop actually gives you more options to go into boss battles with a lot more items, making it significantly easier too. Casually, the game is rather easy, but Quest 64(HMC) plays differently from Eltale Monsters. To clarify the differences, it's like Ocarina of Time, and Ocarina of Time: Master Quest in how big the changes are(though change dungeons out with gameplay differences in this analogy). Quest RPG and Jack no Daibouken are basically Zelda 1 VS Zelda BS(Zelda BS adds new items and features, but is mostly the same. This is legitimately minor).

So there's 5 unique games, and only two have minor differences.

Next to clear it up, it's not a tedious game. You don't need to really grind much at all. They provide items, floating spirits, practically everywhere. The Gameboy game is even better about this as it throws you into a dungeon earlier than expected for experience and a few battles can massively level you up with barely any time spent. You happen to die? Your HP and Defense jumped up a bit because of how stats working like Final Fantasy II. But you aren't expected to grind those stats since casually playing through it raises them anyway. Only issue with the Gameboy remake however is stats go up solely through battle, but they go up hyper fast outside of Defense(which you can boost it with items or a single spell you get very early on, and a lottery item that boosts your defense... that it's a non-issue). The series more or less is anti-grinding.

I do admit the battles can get tedious at times, but that's the norm for every single rpg where you don't have enemies on a screen. As grinding is never needed in a normal run, the worst you need to do is run once in a while. Now, what is worth mentioning is no dungeon maps, so getting through a dungeon when you can outright get turned around in a battle by escaping is a major problem and needs to be fixed. Your compass slightly helps if you pay attention to it, but it's not exactly worth noting.

I'll quickly go over the story too; it's a subversion of the cookie cutter rpg story. The guy you're supposed to save never gets saved. The theft of the key item goes unresolved within one version of the plot, while the other has the character no longer a regretful person, meaning you actually fight them three times. The guy you're supposed to save? He's still dying in one plot, and in the other he's outright killed in front of your face. You save the world, but never really save the person you go after. It's still a pretty bad story, but cookie cutter is a bit misleading.

Hopefully that clears up some misconceptions.

 

[BowserKing]

Brian (Quest 64)
Chance: 10%. Given his debut on the Nintendo 64, he has quite a decent chance of appearing in this game. However, there is also a chance he would appear as a spirit or a Mii costume as well. With that said, I don't know too much about it, but I do know that his chance is quite decent.

Want: 50%. While I don't know too much about Quest 64, at least before today, I think Brian would be fun to play as. I can see him facing off against Link, or teaming up with him against Ganondorf. He has some great potential as well, so I think he would Bee great choice for another Nintendo 64 Rep

Prediction: Helix, Max Brass and Misango (20%) and Arms with Alta (1%)

Noms: 5 for Concept: Pokeball Pokémon Promotion

 

[Ninjaed]

Brian - abstain
Never heard of him nor his game.

Predictions:
Helix - 11%
Max Brass - 16%
Misango - 8%
ALTS - 46%

Nominations: D.Va x5

 

[fogbadge]

can i ask the people who still use the relevancy argument why they still do it, is it cause you forgot sakurai put it to bed or cause you think it only applied to terry?

 

[warpenguin55]

can i ask the people who still use the relevancy argument why they still do it, is it cause you forgot sakurai put it to bed or cause you think it only applied to terry?

OK so I could be wrong here, but wasn't Terry stupid popular in Brazil or something.

As for the relevance argument, I think it does hold some ground. It's by no means the deciding factor as Terry, KKR, and Banjo prove. Basically the way this works in my mind is that if the character is more relevant, there's a better chance of getting fan support which can lead to getting in Smash. Relevance isn't required for fan support (again, KKR/Banjo/Terry if that Brazil thing is true), but it helps. Similar to how never being on Nintendo isn't an automatic deconfirm anymore with Joker and Cloud getting in. It's not required the character shows up on Nintendo systems, but it doesn't hurt their chances if they are.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

can i ask the people who still use the relevancy argument why they still do it, is it cause you forgot sakurai put it to bed or cause you think it only applied to terry?

Well, we have April 2019 for a FF game, and March 2018. The series clearly was still relevant during the pass, especially when selecting him.

So the timing does match up reasonably well with the pass. The franchise was still active.

Another thing to remember is that it's not necessarily on Sakurai or Nintendo's end either. Microsoft agreeing to use B&K doesn't come out of nowhere. They already were in good graces with Nintendo thanks to Minecraft, but they were actively using Banjo-Kazooie as a series via Rare Replay. This becomes increasingly obvious when Sakurai outright advertises people to play the available games on the Xbox. If it wasn't a series being used, Microsoft may not have said yes. Phil Spencer also pretty clearly said he liked the idea, but this is also while the games were part of the Xbox lineup of product. If it wasn't active, it'd be a lot bigger mixup.

The problem with relevancy is people seem to mistake it purely under "new games". That's not how it works. It's how active the product is, and an active product has a better chance of the company saying yes, since Smash is free advertising for their products, making people more interested in the series.

Every 3rd party in Smash had some active product while added, even if it's not new product like Banjo-Kazooie's(the only case actually) case. MegaMan had a crossover comic. It's why I prefer to call B-K "on life support" since it's active without getting new stuff. Last new stuff was some merchandise... just in time for Smash, which is probably the reason for it anyway(and amiibo obviously would be new product eventually).

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Brian (Quest 64)

Chance: 0%

It's a shame I have to give this a 0%, really. Quest 64 does look fun, and it's definitely a cult classic game from what I've seen of it. It has a great concept of being a 3D RPG for the Nintendo 64, but it seems like obscurity has gotten the best of this character. It's not really marketable, and I don't think Nintendo would be willing to take this direction for the Fighter Pass. There's only so much content that could be added here, and I think that the picks are going to be from generally recent or popular games.

Want: 10%

Brian probably wouldn't be received that positively in my eyes, especially from the fanbases who have been far more vocal about their characters, and an obscure character like Brian could be seen as a slap in the face if, say, Geno doesn't make it in. But hey, I wouldn't mind Brian's inclusion! Verde Coeden Scalesworth 's campaign and want for the character has convinced me enough to give Brian a want score of 10%. It could definitely be cool to see Brian return after all these years with a better render and a surge of popularity. Do I think it's likely? Not at all, but I would be happy for Beth that she finally got the pick that she wanted.

 

[Sari]

can i ask the people who still use the relevancy argument why they still do it, is it cause you forgot sakurai put it to bed or cause you think it only applied to terry?

Terry: Face of SNK which has constantly made popular games for years. Majorly changed the arcade scene, very popular in Latin America, and Terry himself even appears in every KoF game.

Banjo: Main character of one of the most beloved platformers of all time. Also an insanely popular Smash request that Sakurai himself has acknowledged in the past.

Seems like people tend to forget that characters like Terry and Banjo had a lot going for them despite not having a main game entry in a while. And then they'll use Banjo/Terry's inclusion to justify every character from a dead franchise for some reason.

 

[Ninjaed]

can i ask the people who still use the relevancy argument why they still do it, is it cause you forgot sakurai put it to bed or cause you think it only applied to terry?

I think the common misconception is that relevancy, popularity and whatnot are requirements. Boxes to check and if they're not, it's game over. B&K for instance however put that to rest, as they were anything but relevant. Or Duck Hunt. "But B&K were a popular pick" some will argue. Yeah, but again that's bonus points, not necessary nor sufficient. If it were, popular characters like Goku would've already been in Smash.

Counter-examples are easy to find, so the only valid theory is: relevancy, popularity, etc give bonus points. That's pretty much it. It helps but it's not required. Well, nowadays (and esp for DLC) maybe at least one of them must be true but other than that, point still stands.

 

[Ridrool64]

Quest 64, I mean Eltale Monsters, I mean Holy Magic Century, I mean Quest 64, I mean...

Chance: Yeah this guy is 0% tier. I would probably bet everything I own that Brian from the Quest series will not get in. He’s from a series that didn’t really go anywhere, has almost negligible fan demand (sorry, but I know exactly one user who wants Brian in Smash), and his most ‘remembered’ game (at least according to both contemporary and modern critics) wasn’t even that good. While his claim to fame is being from the “first N64 RPG” on a console that had a drought of them, Paper Mario is infinitely more popular (in game and character), has even more to work with for a moveset, and is owned by Nintendo so Brian is totally eclipsed in every regard by one of Nintendo’s newcomers. The same can be said of Isaac, though to be fair to Brian at least he wins on the moveset vs. Isaac (but only in sheer material: Isaac would likely. If Sakurai were selecting I’d give him a few pity points because Sakurai might pick anyone, but why would Nintendo ever want Brian from Quest in Smash?

Want: 30%. Seen the reviews, the game looks extremely boring and fails to be immersive, which is basically a crime in an RPG. While he has an interesting set of ideas for a moveset, I know another mage who is from a drastically more popular game, and is also from a genre that has hardly been touched in Smash, and can incorporate both to have a moveset even more distinct than Brian. Among several other more well known, around as unique mages. Don’t see a reason to want him playable. A Mii Costume or Spirit sounds more like it.

Red x 5. Max Brass is basically the face of the non-spirits, 30.69%. Helix is popular for some reason, so he might get a bit higher rated than the others. 12.46%. Misango... is also why tier. 5.30%. And a Hero situation, or Bowser Jr. situation with ARMS is gonna either be widely accepted or widely despised, but very controversial. 15.40%.

 

[Jomosensual]

Brian

Chance 0 - Not seeing this happening. Feels like a character that makes more sense to be non playable in the base game. Hard to see a dead series that wasn't even that popular apparently get a DLC spot

Want 0 - Dont have any want or need for this. There's a lot more first party reps I'd rather get first.

Predictions
Helix 8%
Max Brass 4%
Misango 2%
Alt Skins 35%

Noms
Stretchers x5

 

[fogbadge]

OK so I could be wrong here, but wasn't Terry stupid popular in Brazil or something.

As for the relevance argument, I think it does hold some ground. It's by no means the deciding factor as Terry, KKR, and Banjo prove. Basically the way this works in my mind is that if the character is more relevant, there's a better chance of getting fan support which can lead to getting in Smash. Relevance isn't required for fan support (again, KKR/Banjo/Terry if that Brazil thing is true), but it helps. Similar to how never being on Nintendo isn't an automatic deconfirm anymore with Joker and Cloud getting in. It's not required the character shows up on Nintendo systems, but it doesn't hurt their chances if they are.

cloud had been on a nintendo system before smash

Well, we have April 2019 for a FF game, and March 2018. The series clearly was still relevant during the pass, especially when selecting him.

So the timing does match up reasonably well with the pass. The franchise was still active.

Another thing to remember is that it's not necessarily on Sakurai or Nintendo's end either. Microsoft agreeing to use B&K doesn't come out of nowhere. They already were in good graces with Nintendo thanks to Minecraft, but they were actively using Banjo-Kazooie as a series via Rare Replay. This becomes increasingly obvious when Sakurai outright advertises people to play the available games on the Xbox. If it wasn't a series being used, Microsoft may not have said yes. Phil Spencer also pretty clearly said he liked the idea, but this is also while the games were part of the Xbox lineup of product. If it wasn't active, it'd be a lot bigger mixup.

The problem with relevancy is people seem to mistake it purely under "new games". That's not how it works. It's how active the product is, and an active product has a better chance of the company saying yes, since Smash is free advertising for their products, making people more interested in the series.

Every 3rd party in Smash had some active product while added, even if it's not new product like Banjo-Kazooie's(the only case actually) case. MegaMan had a crossover comic. It's why I prefer to call B-K "on life support" since it's active without getting new stuff. Last new stuff was some merchandise... just in time for Smash, which is probably the reason for it anyway(and amiibo obviously would be new product eventually).

ok but that doesnt quite answer the question

Terry: Face of SNK which has constantly made popular games for years. Majorly changed the arcade scene, very popular in Latin America, and Terry himself even appears in every KoF game.

Banjo: Main character of one of the most beloved platformers of all time. Also an insanely popular Smash request that Sakurai himself has acknowledged in the past.

Seems like people tend to forget that characters like Terry and Banjo had a lot going for them despite not having a main game entry in a while. And then they'll use Banjo/Terry's inclusion to justify every character from a dead franchise for some reason.

no i asked why they are still using the argument not why were those two included

I think the common misconception is that relevancy, popularity and whatnot are requirements. Boxes to check and if they're not, it's game over. B&K for instance however put that to rest, as they were anything but relevant. Or Duck Hunt. "But B&K were a popular pick" some will argue. Yeah, but again that's bonus points, not necessary nor sufficient. If it were, popular characters like Goku would've already been in Smash.

Counter-examples are easy to find, so the only valid theory is: relevancy, popularity, etc give bonus points. That's pretty much it. It helps but it's not required. Well, nowadays (and esp for DLC) maybe at least one of them must be true but other than that, point still stands.

several characters have gotten in due to sheer popularity, sonic, mega man, ridly, k.rool, b&k

 

[Calamitas]

The Life of Brian

Chance: 0%
Sari already put it best. The protagonist of a forgotten, and long-dead series that has no major fan support in any way, shape or form. There's no way that's happening.

Want: 0%
Sorry, but I have countless other characters that I'd much rather see than him. I got no interest here.

Nominating Concept: Fighter Pass Volume 2 is primarily First-Party x5.

Predictions:
Helix: 9.75%
Max Brass: 17.43%
Misango: 2.93%
Different characters: 59.52%

 

[GoodGrief741]

BRIAN BLESSED

Chance: 1%
This is incredibly unlikely. Quest 64 I wouldn't say is completely forgotten from a fan standpoint, it's one of those games like Glover that people who play games from that era keep bringing up because of its unique aspects (in Quest's case it's being a rare RPG for the console). But it's certainly been forgotten from a developer standpoint. Imagineer is still around but not doing much as a videogame developer from what I gather, and the game is probably not on Nintendo's radar. I can't see them doing for this.

Want: abstain
I don't want to tank the want score any further because I have seen some support for this character and this game beyond the user with multiple names. And also because I did play the game and liked it, even if I wouldn't say I have a strong emotional connection to it and Brian in Smash wouldn't mean much.

But also on the other hand whatever historical claim Quest 64 has is pretty flimsy and I want my third parties to be big chunks of gaming history.

Noms: ****ing Tidus x5
Predictions: Helix 11.11%
Max Brass: 26.24%
Misango: 3.48%
Alts: 44.78%

 

[GoodGrief741]

THESE CHARACTERS ARE LOCKED DOWN, NOMINATIONS FOR THEM ARE OBSOLETE

Day 452: Gordon Freeman (Half-Life)
Day 453: Papyrus (Undertale)
Day 454: Guardian (Destiny)
Day 455: Ahri (League of Legends)
Day 456: Concept: Auroros, Jyk and Poppant as Assist Trophies
Day 457: Frank West (Dead Rising)
Day 458: Concept: Fighter from repped third party franchise

(Though this schedule comes with an asterisk. Since we're already going into June and we don't want to be caught off guard, we'll very likely have the last ARMS day somewhere early on in this schedule. We haven't decided on the final date yet, but we'll keep you posted)

We have a last-minute upset! Fighter from repped third party franchise takes Pokéball Pokémon becomes playable's spot. You snooze, you lose. The rest of the schedule should hold no surprises.

Your new top seven consists of Pokéball Pokémon becomes playable, Steve, Meowth, Decidueye, Fighter Pass Volume 2 is mostly first-party, Louie, and a tie between Darksiders rep, Sackboy, Zelda, and Rex.

Spoiler: Nominations post-Terra Branford pre-Brian

Concept: Pokéball Pokémon becomes playable x106
[Rerate] Steve x105
Meowth x101
Decidueye x101
Concept: Fighter Pass Volume 2 is mostly first-party x100
Louie x90
Concept: Darksiders rep x80
Sackboy x80
Zelda (BotW sequel) x80
[Rerate] Rex x80

100 - 51

Proto Man x75
[Rerate] Kratos x70
Dr. Eggman x67
Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors) x57

50 - 25

Dwight Fairfield (Dead by Daylight) x50
Mii Costume: Jill Stingray x50
Boss: Ender Dragon x49
Echo: Zeraora (41e) x45
The Stretchers x45
Fulgore x44
Concept: SNES-era Final Fantasy rep x40
D.Va x40
Echo: Dark Bowser (14e) x39
Concept: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon content x37
Echo: Lord Fredrik (67e) x35
[Rerate] Lip x35
Concept: Content from currently unreleased game (not Spirit Events) (as of May 17th 2020) x35
[Rerate] Saki Amamiya x30
Urbosa x30
[Rerate] Frisk x30
Red (Angry Birds) x30
Concept: Upgraded Spirit x30
Giygas x28
Concept: Second F-Zero rep x28
Concept: Assist Trophies added in updates x27
The Terrarian x25

Under 25

Stage: Bowser's Castle x24
Rival Pokémon Trainer x22
Concept: Returning stages x21
[Rerate] Nightmare x20
Zeraora x15
Black Shadow x15
[Rerate] Paper Mario x15
Concept: No Spirit promotions x15
Wolf Link x15
Diablo (Diablo) x15
Alex Mason x15
Nate Adams x15
[Rerate] Captain Toad x14
Gooigi x13
[Rerate] Jin Kazama x10
[Rerate] Agumon x10
Concept: Dark Souls rep x10
[Rerate] Monokuma x10
Gran/Djeeta x10
Lora and Jin x10
Otto Matic x10
The Avatar (Ultima) x10
Neptune (Hyperdimension Neptunia) x10
Chell x8
[Rerate] Professor Layton x8
Magolor x7
Taranza x6
Concept: Darkstalkers rep x6
Sparky (Clash Royale) x5
Concept: Overwatch character x5
Asha (Wonder Boy) x5
Mii Costume: Hat Kid x5
Concept: Portal 2 rep x5
Breath of the Wild 2 Ganondorf x5
Tick (Brawl Stars) x5
King Graham x5
Concept: Fortnite character x5
[Rerate] Andy x5
Cooking Mama x5
[Rerate] Toxtricity x5
Jill (Drill Dozer) x5
[Rerate] Takamaru x5
Asuka (Senran Kagura) x5
Furret x5
Jin Sakai x5
Deku Scrub x5
Mii Costume: Edward Falcon x5
Concept: A LABO character x5
Cynthia x5
Moogle x5
Tidus x5
Concept: Generic Zora x3
Three Mage Sisters x2
Concept: A Pokémon Trainer who fights x2
Concept: A fighter who uses all kicks x2
[Rerate] Metal Sonic x2
Concept: Generic Goron x2
Echo: 40e x1

Concept: Upgraded Spirit breaks past 25 noms.

Today's newcomers are Moogle and Tidus, both with 5 noms. Man, you'd think we just had a Final Fantasy day or something.

Perkilator You'll probably want to change your noms.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

BRIAN BLESSED

"CHISWICK! FRESH HORSES!!!!"


Brian (Quest 64)

Chance: 0.5% - While the game did see improvements in Japan, the franchise is still very obscure. The game got poor reviews on release and never saw a sequel, outside of two poorly performing GBC spinoffs. Imagineer isn't doing much these days either, and more than likely isn't on Nintendo's radar. Even less popular characters like Terry still has a lot of weight to them, something Brian does not have at all.

Want: Abstain - Never played his game, though I wouldn't want to see him get in over some bigger characters.


Nominations:
Louie x5

Predictions:
Max Brass - 50.43%
Misango - 1.45%
Helix - 14.87%
ARMS Alts - 50.24%

 

[amageish]

can i ask the people who still use the relevancy argument why they still do it, is it cause you forgot sakurai put it to bed or cause you think it only applied to terry?

I'll take a stab at this:

1) I think, from a corporate perspective, Nintendo has two real goals with Smash DLC: (i) make/sell characters people want to buy and (ii) pick characters that will result in increased sales for their games of origin. Therefore, Nintendo picks characters who are "relevant" in broad terms: either relevant because of fan demand keeping memories of beloved out-of-the-spotlight character alive (ex/ King K Rool), relevant because of upcoming games/recent-released games/notable ports/etc (ex/ Joker, Hero, Banjo, Terry, and Byleth all apply here), or relevant because of both (ex/ Banjo especially applies here, though most characters in Smash had demand prior to their reveals because the fandom is big). I don't think that supersedes Sakurai's comment about characters being fun to play as the priority, but, like, they aren't going to add every single character who is fun to play. There has to be other factors deciding who is chosen. I do think people are sometimes too strict about what one needs to be relevant (ex/ I do think some people were unnecessarily harsh on Terra), but on a day like today... Does Brian have any games currently available to purchase digitally legally? As if your games aren't accessible in some form and you don't have considerable fan demand to keep you in the public memory, then we have major problems.

2) This is a Rate Their Chances thread and there are 5 characters left. A lot of the arguments amount to "fan rules" and/or arguing from precedent, but they also aren't meant to be definitive - it's a competition of predictions when Smash slots are kind of famous for unpredictability. If we really evaluated every character based on how fun they would be, like what Sakurai said was important in Terry's reveal, then we would be rating most characters very highly. I mean, most characters who get nominated are nominated because someone thinks they would be fun... Alternatively, the chance and want scores would become effectively merged, as "they would be fun to play as" is a pretty subjective statement...

Now, Smash Bros is still also a celebration of gaming. There is more to it then just "[character] has new game on Switch, therefore likely." However, if it's a game that isn't in the public memory in some way and isn't legally accessible to modern audiences.... I don't think it's unreasonable to say there is a problem of "relevancy."

 

[chocolatejr9]

Abstain. I only learned about Quest 64 from ProJared (please note that I don't watch him anymore due to the conttoversy). Also, does anybody know who even owns this guy?

Nominations: [Rerate] Rex x5

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Abstain. I only learned about Quest 64 from ProJared (please note that I don't watch him anymore due to the conttoversy). Also, does anybody know who even owns this guy?

Nominations: [Rerate] Rex x5

The character and everything in the game is owned by Imagineer, the original creators and IP holder.

Which is also why he has barely any chance if lucky. Imagineer stopped doing gaming a long time ago.

 

[fogbadge]

how many noms does it take to get rated?

I'll take a stab at this:

1) I think, from a corporate perspective, Nintendo has two real goals with Smash DLC: (i) make/sell characters people want to buy and (ii) pick characters that will result in increased sales for their games of origin. Therefore, Nintendo picks characters who are "relevant" in broad terms: either relevant because of fan demand keeping memories of beloved out-of-the-spotlight character alive (ex/ King K Rool), relevant because of upcoming games/recent-released games/notable ports/etc (ex/ Joker, Hero, Banjo, Terry, and Byleth all apply here), or relevant because of both (ex/ Banjo especially applies here, though most characters in Smash had demand prior to their reveals because the fandom is big). I don't think that supersedes Sakurai's comment about characters being fun to play as the priority, but, like, they aren't going to add every single character who is fun to play. There has to be other factors deciding who is chosen. I do think people are sometimes too strict about what one needs to be relevant (ex/ I do think some people were unnecessarily harsh on Terra), but on a day like today... Does Brian have any games currently available to purchase digitally legally? As if your games aren't accessible in some form and you don't have considerable fan demand to keep you in the public memory, then we have major problems.

2) This is a Rate Their Chances thread and there are 5 characters left. A lot of the arguments amount to "fan rules" and/or arguing from precedent, but they also aren't meant to be definitive - it's a competition of predictions when Smash slots are kind of famous for unpredictability. If we really evaluated every character based on how fun they would be, like what Sakurai said was important in Terry's reveal, then we would be rating most characters very highly. I mean, most characters who get nominated are nominated because someone thinks they would be fun... Alternatively, the chance and want scores would become effectively merged, as "they would be fun to play as" is a pretty subjective statement...

Now, Smash Bros is still also a celebration of gaming. There is more to it then just "[character] has new game on Switch, therefore likely." However, if it's a game that isn't in the public memory in some way and isn't legally accessible to modern audiences.... I don't think it's unreasonable to say there is a problem of "relevancy."

iver never had so many wall of text replies

 

[Perkilator]

how many noms does it take to get rated?

Up to 5 at a time, but you need to put at least two sentences in both Chance AND Want in order for your noms to count.

 

[Calamitas]

Up to 5 at a time, but you need to put at least two sentences in both Chance AND Want in order for your noms to count.

I think you misunderstood their question.

how many noms does it take to get rated?

I doesn't take a set amount of nominations. It's merely a matter of which character or concept has the highest amount of nomination once the schedule for the next days is set.

 

[fogbadge]

Up to 5 at a time, but you need to put at least two sentences in both Chance AND Want in order for your noms to count.

I think you misunderstood their question.



I doesn't take a set amount of nominations. It's merely a matter of which character or concept has the highest amount of nomination once the schedule for the next days is set.

one way or the other i dont think im getting nate to the top before the thread closes

 

[DanganZilla5]

one way or the other i dont think im getting nate to the top before the thread closes

Don't worry. It doesn't take a lot of time for a nomination to get to the top and get locked. Just be patient and nominate everyday. Also, this thread will not close for a loooong time.

 

[fogbadge]

If you are saying you will not be able to nominate a character or concept to the top, don't worry. It doesn't take a lot of time for a nomination to get to the top and get locked. Just be patient and nominate everyday. Also, this thread will not close for a loooong time.

well alright then

 

[Jomosensual]

IDK if this is an option or not but I wouldn't have an issue with bumping the last ARMS day up to be behind the other one just to be safe. Its probably not going to be in the first week of June but it would suck if for whatever reason it was and we couldn't get the day in

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

OK so I could be wrong here, but wasn't Terry stupid popular in Brazil or something.

Not just Brazil, but Latin America as a whole (which includes Chile, Argetina, Bolivia and Mexico, although the last one is in North America)