Rate Their Chances (of Returning) - Day 6 - Mewtwo

[Super Smash Master]

I think Mewtwo will stay in the game. He was just too badass to leave. He is my main too. I could use him pretty well even if most of his B moves were useless. I say they should make him faster and give him a few better moves. He is psychic! Let his moveset reflect that.

Other than that. Pikachu is confirmed. Jigglypuff is obviously going to be in again. If you were wondering why, I understand he is very popular in Japan. I honestly don't know how big of a chance Deoxys or Lucario have. I would love to see them both. I hope they are getting considered. Meowth would've made sense long ago, but now he just seems kind of lame. I wouldn't really want him in Brawl. Too bad we couldn't get someone to rep the 2nd gen like pichu did.

 

[Chief Mendez]

I think Mewtwo will stay in the game. He was just too badass to leave.

Sheik's pretty badass too, y'know.

If you were wondering why, I understand he is very popular in Japan.

Really? I could see that. Alot of adverts featuring Pokemon tend to have Pikachu, Jigglypuff, one or two starters, and...Meowth. It's good color design is what it is.

Meowth would've made sense long ago, but now he just seems kind of lame.

Why?

 

[Super Smash Master]

Meowth is lame in my opinion, because he has no cool special powers to make him stand out. He is a cat named Meowth. Real creative. He can make coins come out of the opponent. Totally original for a moveset. *coughmariocough*

 

[Milos]

Meowth is lame in my opinion, because he has no cool special powers to make him stand out. He is a cat named Meowth. Real creative. He can make coins come out of the opponent. Totally original for a moveset. *coughmariocough*

And at this point, next to a 3rd and 4th gen cast of pokemon who are all slightly tweaked animals or legendaries who look like machines with downsyndrome, a cat who shoots coins at people seems pretty cool to me.

EDIT - Nice icon though.

 

[kaid]

Refresh my memory... wasn't Meowth not on the Hoen Dex? I KNOW it's not in the Sinnoh Dex...

Given that Meowth is a non-legendary, there's no reason to leave it out... if it was considered important enough to leave in. (Pikachu, for instance, in native to all 4 regins.)

 

[Milos]

Don't get me wrong, I think meowth is not an incredible idea. They could use that time to design a better pokemon, like spinda!

I'm all for Raichu though, personally. Always has been my favorite pokemon, always will be.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Heck, all I know is he's in the Kanto Dex. I don't remember half of the second-gens names, and I'm 99% sure he's not in Hoenn or Sinnoh's Dex either. But Jiggs isn't in those two either, so...I'm not seeing a point.

I thought it had been pretty well established that (at least with the Pokemn franchise) the non-videogame media has more of a factor in a given fighter's chances than the games.

EDIT - I absolutely hate Spinda. When I first encountered them, I thought it'd be worth something to catch all the "different patterns", the same way you were rewarded for catching each type of Unown....but no. I must have wasted at least an hour catching tons of Spinda.

 

[Vali]

Er, no. Pit isn't in just to sell more Kid Icarus over the VC. Snake isn't in to ramp up sales of Guns of the Patriots...Smash is most decidedly not about increasing sales of a franchise by making it's characters playable, it's about exploring Ninty's storied past (and in some cases, future) in as concrete a manner as possible. Besides, DP don't need any help selling.

I'm pro-Deoxys, but before it, Meowth needs some love. And the answer to his un-not-anti-inclusion in Melee is easy: time/resouces weren't there. They gave us a villain (Mewtwo) that was relevant at the time, but the other Pokemon was a clone. Remember that this is the same development process that saw Ganondorf, perhaps the biggest namein Nintendo baddies, with a cloned moveset.

In conclusion: http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1966834

The inclusion of a few retro characters doesn't help ship old games no, but the inclusion of the popular characters from Nintendo's main franchises do. Besides we might get a Wii MGS game, not canon for sure but still some sort of awesome game with wii-mote waggling neck-snapping and wii-mote-aimed gun shooting. Would seriously help the series in my opinion since my main gripe with it is that it's horrid to actually fire (can't stand shooting on consoles most of the time, I mean has anyone played OOT on VC after playing TP? It feels so much more of a regression due to the lack of awesome slingshot/bow aiming).

Twilight Princess doesn't need help shipping either but they're still very likely to include almost all of the Zelda characters from that franchise, same goes for OOT with Melee. Sure the Smash roster isn't based on selling games, not by a long shot, but the inclusion of the popular characters from the popular franchises does help to increase it's popularity even further and actually helps to sell the games. Roy for example, even if he was jus a clone, was included for that sole purpose, and while he may have been the only one, you can't deny that helping to sell games is not a factor of Brawl roster even if it is mainly just a bolster to a character's inclusion through popularity.

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1967809

At least Ganondorf was IN Melee .

 

[Super Smash Master]

And at this point, next to a 3rd and 4th gen cast of pokemon who are all slightly tweaked animals or legendaries who look like machines with downsyndrome, a cat who shoots coins at people seems pretty cool to me.

EDIT - Nice icon though.

Oh don't get me wrong. The third generation of Pokemon flat out SUCKED except for some exceptions. The fourth was pretty cool. I just think there are better selections for Brawl besides meowth.


And thank you.

 

[Creo]

Meowth sucks and would be worse than Mewtwo. They should just through him in a Pokeball once again as they did in 64.

 

[Chief Mendez]

The inclusion of a few retro characters doesn't help ship old games no, but the inclusion of the popular characters from Nintendo's main franchises do. Besides we might get a Wii MGS game, not canon for sure but still some sort of awesome game with wii-mote waggling neck-snapping and wii-mote-aimed gun shooting. Would seriously help the series in my opinion since my main gripe with it is that it's horrid to actually fire (can't stand shooting on consoles most of the time, I mean has anyone played OOT on VC after playing TP? It feels so much more of a regression due to the lack of awesome slingshot/bow aiming).

Twilight Princess doesn't need help shipping either but they're still very likely to include almost all of the Zelda characters from that franchise, same goes for OOT with Melee. Sure the Smash roster isn't based on selling games, not by a long shot, but the inclusion of the popular characters from the popular franchises does help to increase it's popularity even further and actually helps to sell the games. Roy for example, even if he was jus a clone, was included for that sole purpose, and while he may have been the only one, you can't deny that helping to sell games is not a factor of Brawl roster even if it is mainly just a bolster to a character's inclusion through popularity.

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1967809

At least Ganondorf was IN Melee .

Point is: including a character for the purpose of increasing his/her/it's series' popularity isn't going to happen, and using that as an argument doesn't either.

And Roy (probably) won't be coming back. Every serious player despises him (admittedly only because Marth is much better), and he's not even that interesting. That should speak for itself.

Characters definitely aren't picked just so their games will sell more. It's usually a side effect, but it sickens me to think that the developers would use that as a reason. This isn't Sony we're talking about here (zing!).

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1969690

 

[Vali]

Point is: including a character for the purpose of increasing his/her/it's series' popularity isn't going to happen, and using that as an argument doesn't either.

And Roy (probably) won't be coming back. Every serious player despises him (admittedly only because Marth is much better), and he's not even that interesting. That should speak for itself.

Characters definitely aren't picked just so their games will sell more. It's usually a side effect, but it sickens me to think that the developers would use that as a reason. This isn't Sony we're talking about here (zing!).

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1969690

Including a character does increase the sales though. Take EBA for an example, if they included Commander Kahn and a team of 2 other dancing agents to come kick *** in Brawl I would be overjoyed and they might do it because EBA is a seriously under-repped franchise. It was the best game of '06 for the DS or critically acclaimed to be by pretty much everyone yet still it didn't sell too well (or at least as well as it should) because it's pretty quirky and as a result not many people would have heard of it, especially those that don't read up on games. If they included Kahn not just because he was an awesome character, but to make people more EBA-aware (quite possibly in time for EBA 2) I'm all for it, 'cause the franchise deserves to get repped more. People need the magic of EBA in their lives, and if that means putting him in Brawl so million can enjoy Kahn's sexy cheerleader dance moves then by all means put him in Brawl.

You have to remember that Nintendo has so goddammn many Brawl-worthy candidates to choose from and while some may be no-brainers, there's always going to be a few which are going to be a bit tougher than others. Popularity (and hence selling of games) is going to be a factor which separates some of the tougher choices. While I don't think you could call it pulling a Sony, Nintendo would need to stage a PR event with a decapitated goat first, it does seem a bit , but at the same time kinda logical :/. The game isn't going to be ruined by adding the more popular characters anyway, hell Brawl would probably please more people for it and it doesn't mean that we still won't have the wacky WTF characters appearing either.

I never expected Roy to come back, but you can't deny that he was put there solely for the reason of advertising and repping his new game before it was released. Think Sakurai or someone even admitted to that somewhere, and sure he was a clone and probably a last minute addition, but it's still what happened.

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1970238

 

[Pomfrod]

Justifying a character's removal by saying, "No serious players use x" or "X was bottom tier" is utter nonsense. Here's why.

Let's assume that the "serious players," i.e., the ones who learn the advanced techniques and could compete on a minor tournament level, number more than double the population of these boards, which is ridiculously generous, I know. That's 150,000. Divide that by the latest Melee sales figures, which are more than 6 million. Let's round down to an even six, and that gives us 2.5 percent of all Melee owners as "serious players." Marketing to a demographic this small is about as logical as launching a product campaign targeting female WWII veterans.

Now, the influence of this game is high, and certainly all the points about pushing a certain series, such as FE, are valid. And, what's more, it worked. Now we have the FE games in America. Thank you, Sakurai. And it's plausible that Sakurai might look at the tier rankings to help him balance Brawl--it already looks like Zamus is going to be the redemption of Sheik, saving her moveset, but balancing her. Thing is, character inclusion cannot be based on whether they were/are good for serious players. There aren't enough SHFFLing, wavedashing, missile-canceling players to warrant it. The best argument for Sakurai not taking out wavedashing is that he doesn't care--it is not relevant to the vast majority of players who will play the game.

Take that 2.5%, add that Brawl will probably surpass Melee in sales, factor all the people who will be advertised to by the game without buying it, and I think my point is clear.

But I must draw the distinction between fanservice and tournament play. Certainly G&W and IC's were a nostalgia/fanservice addition. That is feasible, this game is not solely about sales--it is the United Nations of Nintendo. Representing old franchises is one thing, tilting the game toward the infinitesimal "serious players" is entirely another.

 

[bijoukaiba]

After being dead for almost 3 weeks, I'm back again!

Mewtwo... hmmm...

+
~He's among the most famous of the Poke'mon.
~He's also one of the strongest Poke'mon as well.
~The Psychic moveset in Poke'mon gives him a decent basis for his Brawl moveset.
~Also has been major in the TV series/anime. He's starred in... what, 3 movies?
~He was almost planned to be in SSB, so he does have some behind-the-scenes background with Smash prior to Melee.
~Not a clone character or an alternate costume.

My brain's kinda dead at the moment...

-
~He performed really badly in Melee.
~Most of the Poke'mon rep is from the 1st Gen, like Mewtwo. Nintendo might want to focus on some of the newer generations.
~There's already a fair amount of Poke'rep. Nintendo might (and should) focus on some of its other series. Like F-Zero.

Overall: I'll give Mewtwo the benefit of a doubt and give him... a fair 55%. Because while there are more reasons for the positives, some of the negatives are more heavily weighted.

Captain Falcon [x5]

 

[Johnknight1]

Also note that Mewtwo does tie into the Pokemon games' story. You could only obtain him in that Mystery Cave after you beat the Elite Four, because only the best trainer (or "Pokemon Masters") could enter. However, even more important in the story is the whole burning lab on Cinnabar Island.

Mewtwo basically destroyed the lab, which plays a pretty big size roll. On top of it all, c'mon Mewtwo is the genetically upgraded version of the first (strongest=???) Pokemon, Mew. Now that plays a much bigger and important roll than 99.5% of the other Pokemon! So basically Mewtwo is up there with 4 or 5 unconfirmed characters who could possilby make it into Brawl. Those include Jigglypuff (isn't going anywhere) Mewtwo, Lucario, Deoxys, Blazekein, *pauses* Pichu....

@ bijoukaiba
Ever heard of Samus, IMO she's the worst in SSB64, and is up there with the better characters in Melee. Plus the tiers can be completely rewritten, and as far as we know, Falco, Fox, Peach, and Marth are the lowest tiers!

O, and Pokemon is Nintnedo's #2 selling series of all time (only behind Mario, and is the #2 selling franchise of all time). Seriously though, as much as I like F-Zero, Pokemon is 20 times as popular. I'm not exaggerating, look at the sales records, though F-Zero is friggen awsome and deserves character slots than one (Goroh for Brawl=yes)!

 

[Chief Mendez]

It only took me two weeks to repond. See how much I value your opinion? Lots!

Including a character does increase the sales though. Take EBA for an example, if they included Commander Kahn and a team of 2 other dancing agents to come kick *** in Brawl I would be overjoyed and they might do it because EBA is a seriously under-repped franchise.

The series's only been around for just about two years (starting with Ouendan 1), and it is mildly obscure, so it's lack of recognition is to be expected.

It was the best game of '06 for the DS or critically acclaimed to be by pretty much everyone yet still it didn't sell too well (or at least as well as it should)...

1. Castlevania and NSMB are both better games. And I can tell you why it didn't sell as it should have in only two genetic abominations of numbers and letters words: "sk8tr boi".

...because it's pretty quirky and as a result not many people would have heard of it, especially those that don't read up on games.

It still made a profit. If it was a larger-scale game like Hunters, it would need some more representation to justify it's existence (where money is concerned). However, it's a mostly 2-D game with some canned 3-D animations. The only real cost was in licensing, and even then, it sold well enough to justify a sort-of sequel in Ouendan 2.

If they included Kahn not just because he was an awesome character, but to make people more EBA-aware (quite possibly in time for EBA 2) I'm all for it, 'cause the franchise deserves to get repped more.

Indeed, it does.

People need the magic of EBA in their lives, and if that means putting him in Brawl so million can enjoy Kahn's sexy cheerleader dance moves then by all means put him in Brawl.

No. Smash isn't a publicity venue for Ninty to show off games they want more moneys from (and really, they don't need any more than they already have from Ouendan/EBA).

You have to remember that Nintendo has so goddammn many Brawl-worthy candidates to choose from and while some may be no-brainers, there's always going to be a few which are going to be a bit tougher than others. Popularity (and hence selling of games) is going to be a factor which separates some of the tougher choices.

I think there are enough "no brainers" (or close equivalents) that outweigh characters whose few merits are "neat game of origin", "wacky WTF", and "would double as an ad."

I never expected Roy to come back, but you can't deny that he was put there solely for the reason of advertising and repping his new game before it was released. Think Sakurai or someone even admitted to that somewhere, and sure he was a clone and probably a last minute addition, but it's still what happened.

Melee was a different dvelopment beast than Brawl (probably) is. The game was full of time-savers, the production crew was understaffed, and Ganon was a C. Falcon clone. In that scenario, adding a clone who had the added perk of being an advertisment was a great way to kill some birds. But in Brawl, which is clearly not lacking in the staff department (over 50 people, apparently) or resources (IT PRINTSZ MONEY!!!!!!), not to mention the supposed decrease in clones...the "add a character as an advertiser" thing does more harm than good.

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1989663 (How is Edgeworth objecting to von Karma...from the same podium?)

 

[bigsangs]

Captain Falcon Captain Falcon Captain Falcon

 

[Fawriel]

...*pokes Ferro*

 

[Vali]

Welcome back Chief

1. Castlevania and NSMB are both better games. And I can tell you why it didn't sell as it should have in only two genetic abominations of numbers and letters words: "sk8tr boi".

Meh that's your opinion about the better games, I personally found EBA and incredibly fun game which hasn't really been the case since the Pikmin series (and now to a lesser extent Guitar Hero). Sk8tr Boi is a terrible terrible song though, but I didn't get EBA knowing that that song was featured . To be fair I hate "The Anthem" more or something by Good Charlotte but not only because it's an awful punk song but because I played it for 2-3 hours straight trying to beat my very high A score with an S rank and didn't manage it :/.

No. Smash isn't a publicity venue for Ninty to show off games they want more moneys from (and really, they don't need any more than they already have from Ouendan/EBA).

They do need more! Much more! Can't disagree much with the whole showcase thing but I wouldn't really put it past Nintendo to slip some popular choices in. I'm not holding Nintendo in high regard until they announce a European '07 release confirmation for the big Christmas hits and release Super Paper Mario over here. They can truly do the unthinkable (like not releasing SPM their big spring game in E/Au for almost 2 months and still not have a release date!?). Crazy stuff.

I think there are enough "no brainers" (or close equivalents) that outweigh characters whose few merits are "neat game of origin", "wacky WTF", and "would double as an ad."

It's incredibly easy to make a list which doesn't include a wacky WTF character it's true, but I'd personally prefer to see Kahn over say Nookie or Mii which some would consider a no brainer perhaps or even a returning Meleer like IC. Depends how many characters they're adding really since the no brainers dry up around 40.

Melee was a different dvelopment beast than Brawl (probably) is. The game was full of time-savers, the production crew was understaffed, and Ganon was a C. Falcon clone. In that scenario, adding a clone who had the added perk of being an advertisment was a great way to kill some birds. But in Brawl, which is clearly not lacking in the staff department (over 50 people, apparently) or resources (IT PRINTSZ MONEY!!!!!!), not to mention the supposed decrease in clones...the "add a character as an advertiser" thing does more harm than good.

Cut corners at every opportunity no doubt in order to get it on time for a launch release and no doubt you're right that it won't be rushed this time around (still no release date promise). However considering the possibility of a considerable size roster and wanting to get SSBB out onto the Wii for a huge christmas launch, I don't think they'll be able to do everything they might have wanted, but still will be d*mn near perfection. Hell I reckon they're probably at the stage now of tweaking the balancing after having made all of the characters, game modes, stages and movesets. Gonna be a lot of tweaking ;D.

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1989663 (How is Edgeworth objecting to von Karma...from the same podium?)

Magic. Or...some crazy parallel universe where 2 different sides are the same side. Something like that. http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1990019

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Wow. C'mon Ferro, This topic needs to be updated.

 

[Chief Mendez]

^^^
YA RLY

However, even more important in the story is the whole burning lab on Cinnabar Island.

Mewtwo basically destroyed the lab, which plays a pretty big size roll.

So? Was there any point in the lab...at all? No, there wasn't. The only reason the game tells you that is to impress upon the player how strong Mewtwo is, so that when you finally do reach him, you're not like "okay, another legendary. Cool."

Anyway, the point is that he doesn't play as big a role in the game as, say, Dialga does in D.

 

[Darkfur]

^^^
YA RLY

So? Was there any point in the lab...at all? No, there wasn't. The only reason the game tells you that is to impress upon the player how strong Mewtwo is, so that when you finally do reach him, you're not like "okay, another legendary. Cool."

Anyway, the point is that he doesn't play as big a role in the game as, say, Dialga does in D.

*minor pokemon spoilers*




Yeah, that whole, creating the universe thing sort makes him a teensy bit more important. =p

 

[Chief Mendez]

^^^
Well, it's not just that. Dialga played a part (however boring and uninteresting) in the story, whereas Mewtwo was more of a reward that the player was, well, rewarded with upon devoting so much time to the game. If Team Rocket had tried to harness Mewtwo's powers or something...then he'd have a case in this area.

 

[Darkfur]

^^^
Well, it's not just that. Dialga played a part (however boring and uninteresting) in the story, whereas Mewtwo was more of a reward that the player was, well, rewarded with upon devoting so much time to the game. If Team Rocket had tried to harness Mewtwo's powers or something...then he'd have a case in this area.

True, I didn't think of it that way. Mewtwo had a lot of potential that was never used...

 

[Wrath`]

did ferro die or somthing?

 

[Chief Mendez]

^^^
Probably.

Off-topic: Your sig sort of confused me for a second, but then I realized who that girl is. My question is: do you know how to spell her name? Is your username based off of her, because if it is, I'm pretty sure you mixed up two letters. The "a" goes before the "o", if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Wrath`]

@ mandez, on my first forum i spelled it wrong, so instead of spelling it right after that, i choes to spell it like that. I know i spelled it wrong

 

[Chief Mendez]

^^^
Gotcha. More power to ya' then.

 

[killbeast301]

Where is ferro? Maybe he's just spending his time studying for finals. if so, he should be back next week I guess. (that's when finals end for me anyway)

 

[Evil E.]

I think mewtwo will be returning because was in melee and all melee characters will be returnin in brawl as "Veteran Fighters"

 

[cyberdemon]

Mewtwo has the same chance of returning as jigglypuff or pichu.

Even better, Jigglypuff has more chances of returning, because it has been there since SSB64.

 

[Mccdbz5]

What I think Mewtwo's chances of returning are: 95%

I think he is a very unique character that wasn't used to his fullest, and now, he is going to get the chance to shine. He is a very important Pokemon, and is one of the most popular.

My nominations:

Bowser (5)

 

[OysterMeister]

Chances: 99%

Mewtwo was an original character in Melee, not a clone, which means somewhere along the line somebody figured his inclusion to be more important to the roster than quite a few other big names, such as Falco or Ganondorf. And Wario. Mewtwo beat Wario to smash bros without being a clone. That has to mean something.
And in terms of the Pokemon series... well, Mewtwo is still the original ultimate Legendary pokemon, and still as close to a single final boss as the series has ever come. Other legendary pokemon come and go, but mewtwo, he's forever.

Aside from this, Mewtwo just has plenty to offer: he's a joy to watch, with his fluid animations an whatnot, and his moves aren't bad, they just don't have the stats to back them up. It's like the Marth/Roy scenario: they both have the same moves, but one character has some much better numbers backing them up behind the scenes. With some minor modifications, Mewtwo could be a serious contender.

 

[killbeast301]

"ring ring, ring ring, ring ring"
*answering machine picks up*
"This is Ferro De Lupe. I am not here right now, so please leave a message"

This is killbeast301. Ferro, where are you? You haven't updated in, like, a long time. I saw you post on another thread last week (i think last week). I know you're around here somewhere. Call me back please.

 

[petre]

lol. yeah, whatever happened to this thread? it was one of the more intelligent, sane discussion topics in the brawl boards. bring it back!!!!!

 

[killbeast301]

Ferro's on right now, his smash Icon is yellow.

Please update!

 

[Johnknight1]

He's obviously on Wiseguy's character prediction thread.

By the way, sadly Samurai Goroh's chances are now zero, and thankfully Nook's chances are almost zero. YIPEE! C'mon Ferro, return to your roots so I can flam everyone on here AGAIN, lol jk! :llaugh:

 

[digifreak642]

Ike was 70.23% - 72.6%, and now he is confirmed. Deoxys, who is now an AT, got 65.65% - 51.7%.

What are your reactions?

 

[Chibirobo]

Ike was 70.23% - 72.6%, and now he is confirmed. Deoxys, who is now an AT, got 65.65% - 51.7%.

What are your reactions?

Don't forget Tom Nook and Dr.Wright,either!

 

[Fawriel]

Tom Nook isn't completely deconfirmed yet.
Oh well.

Ferro seems to want to let this thread die by playing dead.