Rate Their Chances (of Returning) - Day 6 - Mewtwo

[Johnknight1]

Everyone keeps citing the importance of a villain slot, and Mewtwo fills that well, as seen in the movies and Event 51. I think five Pokemon is a maximum, with a four being likely. I'm looking to a 4th gen Pokemon to replace Pichu; no reason to nuke an easily repaired, original moveset.

Mewtwo--95%

Nominate--Sheik x5

And hasn't it been confirmed by two separate sources that all the SSB64 cast will be returning? Why are we voting on it?

No it's just most likely all the original cast will return. Mewtwo should stay, he's original, and was the strongest Pokemon in Red/Blue, and Fire Red/Leaf Green versions. His power is incredible, sure he was weak in Melee and people want to cut him=? Just repair him, ditch the bdown, fix the Bside, make the B have A LOT less lag, and do stuff with the A attacks, and make him have more and better combos.

That way he'll be better than ever, and also give him more wieght and power, and there you have it=done deal! Not to mention he had TWO movies, and is the only villian Pokemon, period!

 

[rm88]

I say 50%, he could be replaced by a new Pokémon. It really doesn't matter if he is the most powerful in the Pokémon games, he is not in Melee...

PEACH D.A.M.N IT! x5

 

[Creo]

Okay first of all, Mewtwo has two movies. The first and Mewtwo Returns.

I will give Mewtwo pie of returning. 3.14%

Falco X5.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Yet another FYI: Mewtwo ain't no villain. It's just a wild Pokemon that happens to be legendary and an antagonist in a movie. If his role in a movie makes him a villain, than so is Deoxys and the Regis.

 

[Milos]

I honestly don't know. Which of those was the one where he fights Mew? and what was the other one about?

 

[petre]

i remember the first pokemon movie ever was the one where mewtwo+clones vs mew+originals. the second one, mewtwo returns, was the 4th pokemon movie released i believe, it was never in theaters, but it was pretty much giovanni trying to get mewtwo back. i think. its been so long since then...

 

[Johnknight1]

Yet another FYI: Mewtwo ain't no villain. It's just a wild Pokemon that happens to be legendary and an antagonist in a movie. If his role in a movie makes him a villain, than so is Deoxys and the Regis.

But their movies weren't major blockbuster hits near the extreme Pokemon the First Movie: Mewtwo vs. Mew was. Those two didn't even come out in theaters, and the first movie sold much better than the other 3 or 4 that came out in theaters. Plus add Mewtwo's return, and you get the picture. Also in Red, Blue, Yellow, Fire Red, and Leaf Green Mewtwo was the undoubtable strongest, unless you include Mew, in which it's a coin flip from what I remeber. But I do remeber he was always the strongest by a good margin, took one to beat one.

 

[Chief Mendez]

But their movies weren't major blockbuster hits near the extreme Pokemon the First Movie: Mewtwo vs. Mew was. Those two didn't even come out in theaters, and the first movie sold much better than the other 3 or 4 that came out in theaters. Plus add Mewtwo's return, and you get the picture. Also in Red, Blue, Yellow, Fire Red, and Leaf Green Mewtwo was the undoubtable strongest, unless you include Mew, in which it's a coin flip from what I remeber. But I do remeber he was always the strongest by a good margin, took one to beat one.

But his movies are outdated and not as relevant as Deoxys or Lucario's.

And he may have been the strongest in RB, but then again, in RB, ghost was weak to ground.

PKMN games are much more advanced now, and in the RB remakes, any correctly trained monster can be just as strong--if not stronger, than Mewtwo.

 

[Snakebite]

I was once a poke nut, we all were at one stage or another. Alot of us know something or other about pokemon, how can we not? It was massive when it first came out, i'm told it still is.

Why mewtwo should return to brawl?

In regard to popularity, Mewtwo is widely known. Unique on the basis that he was the first pokemon to question his existance in the pokemon universe. He actually talked non "pokemon language" and trained his own pokemon.


If theres any pokemon thats added any deep Philosophical meaning what so ever to pokemon it's mewtwo. Maybe they could of learnt a few things from mewtwo when thinking up a plot for the next pokemon game.

Mewtwo is different, he just needs to be powerd up for brawl.

Heck, theres even a massive graffiti picture of this awesome pokemon in my suburb.

Mewtwo for brawl!!!!!!!!!

 

[Johnknight1]

But his movies are outdated and not as relevant as Deoxys or Lucario's.

And he may have been the strongest in RB, but then again, in RB, ghost was weak to ground.

PKMN games are much more advanced now, and in the RB remakes, any correctly trained monster can be just as strong--if not stronger, than Mewtwo.

From what i've played of FR and LG (I own them), he is by far the strongest still, unless you get Lugia, Ho-oh, or Mew, who are about as good. I raised a ton of correctly trained team *consisting of 5lv 100's) who still can't even compare to him. He should get him Bside and Bdown dropped and be given better ones, or they should become...IDK STRONG AND USEFUL!!!

His movies may be out of date, but they earned the most MONEY, and that is basically all that counts in movies, along with popularity. C'mon, everyone saw that movie basically, and the only other one I saw was the 3rd or 4th one, and they all pretty much suck, just like the show=too true. But anyways, he's been a staple in the games as the most powerful Pokemon, and set the standard for the ultimate Pokemon and last Pokemon boss battle. Plus he's got a much better story than the other Pokemon in the games, and that never hurts.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Why Include jigglypuff and not Mewtwo is the question that keeps popping up in my head?


Even if mewtwo is not the most powerfull pokemon, he is still one of the most unique and popular. I can gurantee you that if mewtwo was top tier in super smash brothers there would be more demand for him in brawl.

A - Because Jiggs is one of the O.G.s of Smash, plus it kicks a$$.

B - This is the same problem I have with Marth, Yoshi, and Ness. Everyone, even guys who've never touched a FE game in their life, wants Marth back. Why? They may give reasons, but really, they just don't want to lose one of the cheaper characters in the game.
People either don't care or are hesitant about Yoshi and Ness returning. Why? Because in Melee, they both stink.

I'd like for people to judge characters not on their Smash record, but rather on how relevant they are to their series and to Nintendo (while still keeping in mind common sense.)

 

[Johnknight1]

A - Because Jiggs is one of the O.G.s of Smash, plus it kicks a$$.

B - This is the same problem I have with Marth, Yoshi, and Ness. Everyone, even guys who've never touched a FE game in their life, wants Marth back. Why? They may give reasons, but really, they just don't want to lose one of the cheaper characters in the game.
People either don't care or are hesitant about Yoshi and Ness returning. Why? Because in Melee, they both stink.

I'd like for people to judge characters not on their Smash record, but rather on how relevant they are to their series and to Nintendo (while still keeping in mind common sense.)

Jiggs owns in both SSB64 and Melee, it's just Jiggs is wayyy underrated.

1.Who here hasn't played Super Mario World 1 or 2, or Yoshi's Island DS, Yoshi's Story, or Super Mario Sunshine=???

2.more people are comfortable with Marth, or know how many people have become successful with them, and want to be EXACTLY like that.

3.Ness is actually pretty good, it's just he's underrated, his Bup is the hardest to master, and his Aup and Adown suck.

Idc what series they are from, I just want good and awsome characters that are reconizable and are cool. Hell I mained Kirby in SSB64 and I didn't know who he was, and Ness was my 2nd best, and it was the same deal as Kirby. I had only played Link's Awakening for three hours, and I barely even knew who Link was in Melee and I mained him for a long time. I say choose who you're comfortable with, who you like, and who you're best at, and main them. That's what I did, and will continue to do through Brawl, and any future Smash games.

 

[Tera253]

Mewtwo? there should be no logical reason to take him out just because he sucked. it's called revamping. it's called Link-ing or Fox-ing.
85%.
nominate: Falco (x5)
~Tera253~

 

[Fawriel]

A - Because Jiggs is one of the O.G.s of Smash, plus it kicks a$$.

B - This is the same problem I have with Marth, Yoshi, and Ness. Everyone, even guys who've never touched a FE game in their life, wants Marth back. Why? They may give reasons, but really, they just don't want to lose one of the cheaper characters in the game.
People either don't care or are hesitant about Yoshi and Ness returning. Why? Because in Melee, they both stink.

I'd like for people to judge characters not on their Smash record, but rather on how relevant they are to their series and to Nintendo (while still keeping in mind common sense.)

Don't you contradict yourself, saying that Jiggly needs to stay for kicking *** and then going on about how people need to worry about relevance instead of power?
That said, I agree so much with point B. But still, Mewtwo is partially relevant *because* of his strength. Also, because of how he got his strength. As Snakebite said, Mewtwo brings something more serious and even somewhat philosophical to Pokemon. He's Mew 2, the *******ized, tainted version of Mew, who is said to be the genetic basis for all Pokemon. His existence is a human crime against nature. He's not evil per se, his creation was evil, and he is broken.

By the way, I would really like to see that Mewtwo graffiti. That's ****ing METAL!

 

[GenG]

If there were no anime, then Mewtwo would be more popular than Pikachu itself: Is one of the few Pokémon that got a backstory, individuality and personality in the games, he's still one of the best Pokémon around, he's very popular in the Pokémon fanbase (the true Pokémon fanbase which is HUGE and INTERNATIONAL, there's no way such an important Pokémon will be losing popularity). He was screwed up in Melee but it still has fans outside Melee.

He may be replaced though, so I give him a 80%.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Don't you contradict yourself, saying that Jiggly needs to stay for kicking *** and then going on about how people need to worry about relevance instead of power?

That's just a bit of humor tossed in for good measure. Jiggs is a bit of a tradition in Smash (as much tradition as a two-part franchise can have, anyway). First time you do anything, there's Jiggs.

2.more people are comfortable with Marth, or know how many people have become successful with them, and want to be EXACTLY like that.

3.Ness is actually pretty good, it's just he's underrated, his Bup is the hardest to master, and his Aup and Adown suck.

Well what kind of attitude is that? Isn't Smash about reveling in Nintendo's rich history in as fun a way as possible? Since when is this GGX^Core? Marth wouldn't be the same even if he came back.

And as for Ness: that's why alot of people think he'll be ousted in favor of Lucas. He isn't a good fighter (it doesn't hurt to have an ever-shrinking fanbase because Nintendo, in all their unholy glory, decides not to release a cheap GBA collection overseas...) so most people don't really mind if he leaves.

From what i've played of FR and LG (I own them), he is by far the strongest still, unless you get Lugia, Ho-oh, or Mew, who are about as good. I raised a ton of correctly trained team *consisting of 5lv 100's) who still can't even compare to him. He should get him Bside and Bdown dropped and be given better ones, or they should become...IDK STRONG AND USEFUL!!!

Are you sure you raised them as best you can? Just leveling them to 100 isn't enough. You have to take into account EPs and IVs, natures, egg types, and various other factors. In my Diamond game, I've a lv.99 Eevee that has higher stats than any of the other legendaries (well, maybe not Acreus or the other event legends...darn you Japan).

His movies may be out of date, but they earned the most MONEY, and that is basically all that counts in movies, along with popularity. C'mon, everyone saw that movie basically, and the only other one I saw was the 3rd or 4th one, and they all pretty much suck, just like the show=too true. But anyways, he's been a staple in the games as the most powerful Pokemon, and set the standard for the ultimate Pokemon and last Pokemon boss battle. Plus he's got a much better story than the other Pokemon in the games, and that never hurts.

But this isn't a movie, it's Smash Bros. It's not about which franchise (or chracter) can make the most moneys, it's about appeasing the fans. Personally, I don't see how lapsed "Pokenuts" should have as much say as current ones when it comes to which monsters get in a fan-desire project like this.

Also, the anime rocks, Lucario has a cooler story, and Mewtwo was never a boss.

 

[kaid]

Mewtwo is the closest thing the Pokemon Games had to a Final Boss. He was the original Level 70, which you had to beat the entire rest of the game to even access, and in R/B, he was broken as all hell. When they remade FireRed/LeafGreen, he returned, giving him more in-game appearences than any other Legendary. (Red, Blue, Yellow, FR, LG)

Lucario is a more recent newcomer, and is poised to be the new "cool" Pokemon mascot. He was treated like a legendary in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, and while you never meet him, you can get his stature in front of your house if you reach "Lucario" hero rank.

Pokemon is one of Nintendo's biggest franchises... There's no reason to kick out the villian to fit in the sidekick. Have them both.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Alright, kaid, I agree with basically everything you said, except this:

Mewtwo is the closest thing the Pokemon Games had to a Final Boss.

I think it's pretty obvious that the final boss is the Champion. I have no clue why people keep saying a rare Pokemon constitutes as a boss. Excalibur II isn't a final boss, just a very, very hard to obtain asset. How is M2 any different?

Oh, I also disagree with you wanting him back. Almost missed that.

 

[kaid]

The Champion had to be beaten before it was phsically possible to reach Mewtwo.

Mewtwo, in R/B, was a type that NOTHING powerful was effective against, and had a crazy-good defence, speed, and attack.
He was harder than the champion.

In addition, he also plays a villian role in the Anime, the same place that gives Pikachu his importance. Either Mewtwo or Meowth has to fill the Villian role, and Meowth is a pathetic loser.

 

[Chief Mendez]

The Champion had to be beaten before it was phsically possible to reach Mewtwo.

And after you beat the Champion...the credits roll. Seems like an end-of-game fight to me. Maybe, maybe, you could classify M2 as a secret boss in RB, but he's not the Sephiroth of the Pokemon games. And as good as he was in RB...he's not anymore. Plus, those games are over a decade old. That's not what I call inidicative of the franchise.

And Pikachu's the franchise's mascot, anime or not. Sure, M2 was a villain in the first movie, but Deoxys was a "villain" in the 7th (might be the 6th or 8th...) movie, and isn't Darkrai the antagonist of the newest film? It's fine for M2 to be a villain, but that was a long time ago...

Meowth is a pathetic loser.

 

[kaid]

Mewtwo vs Lucario would be a much better fight than Meowth vs Lucario.

They are similar enough to have a natural rivalry, and different enough to be interesting foes.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Mewtwo vs Lucario would be a much better fight than Meowth vs Lucario.

BUT LOOK AT THOSE CLAWS! THEY COULD TEAR A TANK TO SHREDS!!

They are similar enough to have a natural rivalry, and different enough to be interesting foes.

I'm all for Lucario, but you can't just add the "cool" Pokemon. It's not exactly a serious franchise. Drop Pichu and Mewtwo, add Meowth and Lucario.

Though I haven't the faintest what others would get in.

EDIT - 10 Points to anyone internets-savvy enough to get the "crab" reference.

 

[kaid]

So, you want to drop a unique (if somewhat underpowered) moveset, because there's too many cool pokemon?

 

[Chief Mendez]

No, I want to get the most out of Brawl that I can, which entails dropping not-so-important-anymore characters (as well as never-that-important characters like Doc and Pichu) like Mewtwo. If you're that focused on his moveset, then just play Melee with handicaps on.

I'm not a Smasher because it's a great fighting game, I'm a Smasher because I loves me some Nintendo. And as a fan of the Pokemon games, I'd much rather play as Meowth than Mewtwo again. And since I don't see Mewtwo as being that important (at least, not as important as Meowth) to the series anymore, if his cut means I get more new characters to play as, so be it.

The "cool or not" point was just a little argument in response to your idea of just adding Lucario without dropping Mewtwo. But that's not (as you can see by perusing the last few posts) my only reason.

 

[kaid]

Consider this:

Clones are easier to add. Why? Because they make a new model, and tweak an existing moveset, and call it done.

By the same token, a returning character is just as easy. They make a new, Wii-powered character model, and import the Melee moveset, tweaking it slightly. Just as easy.

So, by keeping returning characters, we fit more characters in the game, without reducing the number of new characters.

 

[rm88]

Metal Gear Solid 3: Crab Battle.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Well, if we're going down that road, then I counter with the fact that M2's moveset isn't all that great. Two of his specials are bull, his most useful is a generic "charge up" move, replete with lag, and his recovery does nothing. Most of his aerials are slow or underpowered, and even his claw (usually a good move) stinks in comparison to every other claw-user's. He's comparitively light to other characters with his build, and the only honest advantages he has are good grabs and evasiveness.

Why fix what's broken when you could spend that time making Lucario? And think about this: if Mewtwo comes back, then so would Falco. So would Marth. So would Sheik. You hopefully see my point: if these non-essential characters are to be brought back for round dos, that's that much less time the developers have to spend on making new, exciting characters that might otherwise be excluded.

Just to clear something up here, I don't dislike Mewtwo, I just don't think he's an essential fighter to represent the Pokemon franchise.

EDIT - rm88:

 

[Vali]

"A knife would be usless against those massive claws." is the actual line.

While I know you like Meowth he was even dropped from the Pokeballs for Melee (correct me if I'm wrong) and I don't see why he'd return as a playable character now. If anything your argument bolsters an addition of Lucario and Deoxys, if Mewtwo is no longer important to the Pokemon series I don't understand why Meowth would be.

While he may be one of the most predominant recurring characters in the anime he hasn't starred in his own movie or anything of the sort and his fanbase is relatively tiny compared with such newer Pokemon as Deoxys/Lucario/Blaziken. If Meowth was going to have shown up as a Pokemon it would've been in Melee.

 

[Chief Mendez]

^^^
When was the last time an episode of Pokemon didn't have Meowth in it? There are some, but they're few and far between. Either way, he's much more ubiquitous than Mewtwo. He's also in every movie, star or not. And he was never in a Pokeball, in either game. He was even good enough to have his own videogame (scrapped though it was).

Mewtwo's not as relevant as he was 7 or 8 years ago, but Meowth hasn't (and won't) gone anywhere. He's still the most recognizable "antagonist" of the show that isn't a human.

And there's more than one line of dialogue, you know.

 

[kaid]

But, consider, mendaz... Making Mewtwo AND Marth AND Falco would be just as easy as making Meowth alone.

And while Mewtwo is the worst character in Melee, it's not his moves fault, it's his stats. He's too slow, too light, and just floaty enough to be easilly comboed. These can be easilly fixed when giving him a Brawl makover, just by moving a few sliders.

 

[Vali]

And he was never in a Pokeball, in either game.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/n64/file/198854/26467

Recollection skills +1.

"Meowth
------
Attack Name: Pay Day

Damage: 6% with coin (120 coins)"

Anyway, Meowth's appearance was then cut for Melee in favour of some of the new pokemon from the 2nd generation. With 2 more generations of pokemon since and Meowth's popularity decreasing over the years (to be fair his fanbase isn't comparable to some of the new 4th gen pokemon), I don't really see any reason to include him and probably won't even make the pokeball let alone as a playable character. The fact that he is the main recurring pokemon antagonist is pretty irrelevant if he doesn't have a mass following.

If it was up to me i'd cut all of the Pokemon that weren't Mewtwo and throw a lot more characters into other franchises, but that ain't gonna happen unfortunately . At the end of the day if they're going to cut any 1st generation pokemon then they aren't going to add anymore this time around, it'll be 2nd, 3rd or 4th for sure.

 

[Chief Mendez]

But, consider, Mendez... Making Mewtwo AND Marth AND Falco would be just as easy as making Meowth alone.

And while Mewtwo is the worst character in Melee, it's not his moves fault, it's his stats. He's too slow, too light, and just floaty enough to be easilly comboed. These can be easilly fixed when giving him a Brawl makover, just by moving a few sliders.

My point exactly: why spend development time just tweaking stats of old chracters when they could use those resources to create all new ones?

And again, I'm not arguing somuch that it couldn't be done (fixing Mewtwo), just that it's not worth it in favor of new players.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/n64/file/198854/26467

Recollection skills +1.

"Meowth
------
Attack Name: Pay Day

Damage: 6% with coin (120 coins)"

All I can say is that I don't remember him. But oh well. Point lost.

Anyway, Meowth's appearance was then cut for Melee in favour of some of the new pokemon from the 2nd generation. With 2 more generations of pokemon since and Meowth's popularity decreasing over the years (to be fair his fanbase isn't comparable to some of the new 4th gen pokemon), I don't really see any reason to include him and probably won't even make the pokeball let alone as a playable character. The fact that he is the main recurring pokemon antagonist is pretty irrelevant if he doesn't have a mass following.

Where do you get the idea that his popularity's "slowly decreasing"? Far as I know, there's no unifying institution where any given Pokemon's number of fans are tallied and publicly displayed. And the point is that he is a main antagonist, even if his fanbase isn't so large as to flood city streets. I don't think Jiggs ever had hordes of raging fanatics worshipping broze effigies of it, but it's been in both games.

 

[Fawriel]

Jigglypuff is the Tingle of Pokemon. Too bad Meowth wasn't Ganondorf enough to stop it from being a staple.

 

[Vali]

Well I'm taking the trend that older Pokemon generally don't get more popular as time goes on, maybe in some cases of nostalgic value but people find new favourites among the new pokemon and while Meowth might have had a following back when there were only 151 critters to choose from, I think that his fanbase won't be as large now there's something rediculously close to 500. I have no conclusive proof either way, but the fact he wasn't even included in Melee puts a dampener on his chances now that the pokemon choice is so large.

Still you didn't address my concerns over adding another 1st generation Pokemon when the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations are in more need of rep and the 4th generation especially since it is the most recent. If this was back in Melee then there might have been an argument with only the 2 generations and a possible pokeball -> playable upgrade, but not now. He may be the main recurring antagonist in the same way that Pikachu is the main recurring protagonist but he just doesn't share the same popularity and importance to the franchise, and the most popular baddies are the powerful legendaries like Deoxys and Mewtwo that get their own movies to star in.

Plus, Meowth isn't your typical antagonist either. What most people look for in a villain is badass, and there's no denying that. Therefore Meowth has less appeal than a regular villain would, since Team Rocket have been nothing but a joke (at least, last when I saw the anime YEARS ago, tell me if they suddenly became serious).

 

[Chief Mendez]

Jigglypuff is the Tingle of Pokemon.

I take that as your consent that Tingle needs to be in Brawl.

Well I'm taking the trend that older Pokemon generally don't get more popular as time goes on, maybe in some cases of nostalgic value but people find new favourites among the new pokemon and while Meowth might have had a following back when there were only 151 critters to choose from, I think that his fanbase won't be as large now there's something rediculously close to 500. I have no conclusive proof either way, but the fact he wasn't even included in Melee puts a dampener on his chances now that the pokemon choice is so large.

Still you didn't address my concerns over adding another 1st generation Pokemon when the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations are in more need of rep and the 4th generation especially since it is the most recent. If this was back in Melee then there might have been an argument with only the 2 generations and a possible pokeball -> playable upgrade, but not now. He may be the main recurring antagonist in the same way that Pikachu is the main recurring protagonist but he just doesn't share the same popularity and importance to the franchise, and the most popular baddies are the powerful legendaries like Deoxys and Mewtwo that get their own movies to star in.

Well, I don't think anyone most people expect Paras or Pinsir to be in Brawl, but they aren't major staples of the Pokemon franchise (like Meowth is). And I'm all for at least one 4th/3rd (Lucario/Deoxys) gen Pokemon to be playable, but before they add some semi-important monsters like that, they really should add the one Pokemon that actually has a personality beyond "aloof" or "friendly"or "mean". And I've been over all Meowth's relevance before, but that counts too. The fact that Meowth is still recognizable to most every Pokemon fan says alot about how important he is to the franchise. I'd completely forgotten Pokemon like Tyrogue and Tangela even existed before I saw them on DP's GTS.

Other Pokemon need to be added, but Meowth does to. And if the only way they can add those new Pokemon and Meowth is by cutting Mewtwo (and Pichu, thereby not having 6 or 7 Pokemon, but still only 2 or 3 SF/FE fighters), then fine.

 

[Fawriel]

Eh, they were serious for the first two or three episodes. Then they slipped into Metapod sleeping bags.

Meowth IS pretty cool, though. Especially in the original.
Magic Wikipedia!
"In the original, he's very calm, if not a bit of a philosopher/poet (this is confirmed in several episodes where he sings to himself about his purpose)."
"Meowth is essentially the "brains of the outfit" and appears to come up with more than his fair share of the team’s plans; he seems to share his species’ thematic association with money, often being the one most concerned with practical issues such as the dismal state of the team’s finances and expressing frustration with Jessie and James’s addiction to foolish theatrics. Because of this, Meowth is usually the one who operates Team Rocket’s Pokémon-stealing machinery, working in the background while Jessie and James confront the protagonists."

Basically, he's pretty smart and kinda cool, in a different way. Pulled off right, he'd be sooo badass.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Plus, Meowth isn't your typical antagonist either. What most people look for in a villain is badass, and there's no denying that. Therefore Meowth has less appeal than a regular villain would, since Team Rocket have been nothing but a joke (at least, last when I saw the anime YEARS ago, tell me if they suddenly became serious).

I was actually going to address this in my last post, but I couldn't think of a god wayto word it in my favor. Glad you brought it up then.

Yeah, he's not a "villain", but he's still technically an antagonist. And more importantly, he's a key character (that isn't a dorky human) to the series that has consistently been featured in the majority of the franchise's incarnations.

 

[Vali]

Well, I don't think anyone most people expect Paras or Pinsir to be in Brawl, but they aren't major staples of the Pokemon franchise (like Meowth is). And I'm all for at least one 4th/3rd (Lucario/Deoxys) gen Pokemon to be playable, but before they add some semi-important monsters like that, they really should add the one Pokemon that actually has a personality beyond "aloof" or "friendly"or "mean". And I've been over all Meowth's relevance before, but that counts too. The fact that Meowth is still recognizable to most every Pokemon fan says alot about how important he is to the franchise. I'd completely forgotten Pokemon like Tyrogue and Tangela even existed before I saw them on DP's GTS.

Other Pokemon need to be added, but Meowth does to. And if the only way they can add those new Pokemon and Meowth is by cutting Mewtwo (and Pichu, thereby not having 6 or 7 Pokemon, but still only 2 or 3 SF/FE fighters), then fine.

No-one completely sane expects some random obscure Pokemon to actually turn up in Brawl no, but they can always hope. Most 1st generation Pokemon are instantly recognisable, because most Pokemon fans will have collected them at least 2 times through 1st gen and 2nd gen, then probably again in 3rd gen and then again in 4th gen, and the first generation was bound to be more memorable. Hell I haven't even played Pokemon in years and could probably fire off a good few 1st gen Pokemon with even more with some sort of clue.

Meowth's inclusion wouldn't increase the Pokemon games popularity like Lucario and Deoxys would and even though Mewtwo is no longer as important if at all to the franchise in terms of the anime there's still a lot of Pokemon veterens that are fond of him. He also possesses an original style, the "badass" villain attribute and powerful ingame persona (at least in the first 2) that Meowth lacks. After all, how original design is a cat, called Meowth? >.>

Including the more recent popular Pokemon will help ship D/P in a way that Meowth in my opinion simply wouldn't, and at the end of the day that's what repping the franchises is for. I really see no reason to cut Mewtwo and replace him with Meowth. If you were aruging for Deoxys I could probably see why but if Meowth was as important to the franchise as you say, why they'd skip him completely for Melee?

Edit: Him not being a "villain" as such more hurts his chances, since they're probably going to include more villains. While he still fits the category, compared to (again) Deoxys, Deoxys has the edge in that regard.

 

[LordRalph_87]

Mewtwo has about as much chance of getting into brawl as Cheif Mendez signature has of being the main storyline in the next pokemon game.

Pokemon: Cyran (running low on colours)
Attack of the Angels

 

[Chief Mendez]

Including the more recent popular Pokemon will help ship D/P in a way that Meowth in my opinion simply wouldn't, and at the end of the day that's what repping the franchises is for.

Er, no. Pit isn't in just to sell more Kid Icarus over the VC. Snake isn't in to ramp up sales of Guns of the Patriots...Smash is most decidedly not about increasing sales of a franchise by making it's characters playable, it's about exploring Ninty's storied past (and in some cases, future) in as concrete a manner as possible. Besides, DP don't need any help selling.

If you were aruging for Deoxys I could probably see why but if Meowth was as important to the franchise as you say, why they'd skip him completely for Melee?

I'm pro-Deoxys, but before it, Meowth needs some love. And the answer to his un-not-anti-inclusion in Melee is easy: time/resouces weren't there. They gave us a villain (Mewtwo) that was relevant at the time, but the other Pokemon was a clone. Remember that this is the same development process that saw Ganondorf, perhaps the biggest namein Nintendo baddies, with a cloned moveset.

In conclusion: http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1966834