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Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

What will you like to discuss next?

  • Jabs

    Votes: 29 72.5%
  • Grabs

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Continue with Specials

    Votes: 8 20.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .

TheGoodGuava

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:4bayonetta:Similar to Diddy in shield cancelling, but everything else is different. This move stops approaches and does its best to hit offstage opponents - if only the bullets aimed a little more down...
Please, if Bayo's neutral B had a decent angle I would quit smash 4 altogether. Not even Needles would contest that kind of bull****

It is worth noting that characters with dashes low to the ground (Marcina/Roy, Sheik, Mac, Greninja, you get the point) can just dash through it without getting touched. Short characters in general have nothing to worry about with this move, its actually kind of bad unless you're using it against someone who's offstage.
 

Masonomace

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My last tid-bit I'll say about arts before I give anymore insight about other moves, is that Buster & Smash are also crucial to use. Buster on-hit then buffer deactivated can create kill confirms most notably out of Nair landing, but includes other options too. BSP BSP mentioning about Pac-Man wanting arts over BF kinda shocked me, but Pac-Man with Buster would make his Dash attack & Nair wayyy safer on-block (Frame 3 Nair dealing 14% on-block & only suffering 12 frames of landing lag??:love:). Any heavy character with a strong kill throw like Bowser's Fthrow or Zard's Uthrow would be destructively cheese using Smash art since their weight is so high that the increased knockback taken means so little. Heck Bowser's Fthrow at ledge would kill at least 20% earlier & that's not really counting in Rage:shades:, but that's enough vacuum examples from me. The point is, Shulk is already a decent character without arts, & including arts to him makes fighting him too ridiculous in a normal-match-mentality.

Every other special move is either a projectile, melee-ranged attack, reflect/counter, or command grab thanks to @PGH_Chrispy organizing.
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Character defining: :4duckhunt: :4lucario: :4pacman: :4shulk:
Good stuff: :4greninja: :4littlemac: :4lucina: :4luigi: :4marth: :4megaman: :4mewtwo: :4pikachu: :4sheik: :4villager: :4yoshi: :4zss:
Alright: :4bowser: :4charizard: :4dedede: :4diddy: :4dk: :4drmario: :4myfriends: :4kirby: :4link: :4mario: :4metaknight: :4pit: :4rob: :4robinf: :4ryu: :4sonic: :4tlink: :4wario: :4wiifit:
Meh: :4cloud2: :4falco: :4gaw: :4palutena: :4peach: :rosalina: :4feroy:
Useless: :4bowserjr: :4ganondorf: :4jigglypuff:

:059:
I like how you didn't mention :4falcon: in this list.:laugh: I do find :4feroy:'s Flare Blade to be more than Meh simply because that move has the same fast endlag regardless of the amount charged. Actually, :4myfriends:, :4marth:, :4lucina:, & :4feroy: share the same nature in their melee-ranged Neutral-B specials in that they have the same amount of endlag regardless of charge channel time. So, these four are not hindered differently in rank if the supposed response that lag is less/more than another. Marcina only need 60 frames of charge time to be full-charged, but Ike & Roy take about the same amount of charge frames uncharged & full-charged. Ike & Roy just have different startup times. Marcina have the fastest startup out of release, then Roy, then Ike. Hitbox size-wise though, Ike & Roy scare me more. If I had to stop here & try ranking the four of 'em, I'd say they all kinda belong in the same region, but Marcina would get higher rating simply because they have shield-break applications. Although, Ike & Roy's have more hitbox acitivity so they're scare af at ledge. They reflect different usages at different times, but. . .:urg:. Owell.


:4villager: apparently can use Pocket's ability on 44/58 characters of the cast, but I could be wrong on that exact detail. So that's still pretty good since the amount you'd use Pocket at all can be low or very high usage in a character-MU. It's also nutty-crazy to use in certain matchups such as :4dedede:. Even without the ability, intangibility is pretty neat to have & it's a unique ability that doesn't exactly absorb or reflect. Against those apparent 14 characters that don't care about the Pocket ability, it won't see very much usage if at all unless you find / theorycraft ideas of when to use it, but otherwise the move is pretty solid. I'd say at least B-tier or at best A-tier.
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Command grabs including :4dedede:, :4kirby:, :4wario:, & :4yoshi: are interesting but I'd say that the best command grab goes to Wario & then Yoshi. Kirby & DDD's Inhale can be shielded at semi-close proximity & not be sucked into the grab range so that's a thing. Overall however, I'd say that Kirby would be up there around A or B-tier, but it's character-specific more-so than the others being a solid unchanged command grab. Kirby's Inhale being Copy Ability completely depends on the opponent's character, so it'd be great for Neutral Specials like :4sheik: & :4shulk: simply because you play a very strong even game with them now. However, a Copied :4littlemac:Straight-Lunge or :4cloud: Blade Beam isn't as great because you wouldn't get KO Punch or Limit Break. A unique Copy Ability is :4lucario:'s Aura Sphere because your Coped Aura Sphere starts out at base power even if you have 0%. If anything FamilyTeam FamilyTeam , I'd say that rating Kirby's Inhale/Copy Ability is harder to judge than Arts, but you also have a point in that arts are very out-of-this-world. Also, if DDD & Kirby's Inhale damage based off weight could apply an exception of knockback reduction or increase-class, then a Shield Shulk being Spit-Out would be freaking devastating in Doubles LOL.
 

Nathan Richardson

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So, Samus deserves at least high A tier, if not S for reasons I listed. That'd be great.
Yeah, you didn't give a ton of data to warrant it being up that high. (sorry for editing, my web browser keeps eating my posts, or my posts don't get through at all)
I see it being in A tier but only low A tier. It has excellent power, range, and as you stated it can break shields.
However it needs three full CS to break a shield and Air dodge nullifies it plus it can't be charged in midair plus when it is charging Samus freezes and can only move by Spot dodge or dodge roll if an opponent presses their advantage. You're very vulnerable to grabs at this time, plus how many frames does it take to fully charge the shot? We need more info but noone will say anything about her.
 
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Vyrnx

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S tier is out of the question, but CS and the other chargeables have way more utility than the majority of neutral b's.

CS' speed to come out and move in the air is impressive, and it's already a 25 damage/high KO power button you can hold. It has tech chase setups, edge guarding, combo, punish, ledge get up, and shield breaking utility that no other neutral b packs all in one.

It'd be nice if it could be charged in the air, but it's the only chargeable (referring to the charge ball variants, not bonus fruit and thunder) with a whole bunch of setups that lead into it. WFT has one low percent tech chase (at 20%?) off of ftilt, Mewtwo I believe also does off of ftilt, Lucario might have some specific stuff. Samus has namely sweetspot ftilt to CS at ~30, jab combo to CS at ~60, sour ftilt to CS at ~105, and most importantly zair to CS starting at about 90 and having a big window. Against fast fallers who often have very long forced tech windows, zair is fantastic.

The other chargeables serve different purposes while being excellent in their own rights. CS' purpose is being land-able and meshing with Samus's horizontal knockback angles. It's the easiest chargeable to kill, and again, having a 25 damage high KO power holdable move that has the most utility in advantage state of the chargeables (except Aura Sphere at the ledge, though I'm talking about the physical projectiles in motion) demands a great deal of respect. Samus never has to just guess and shoot in the neutral ever, like, say, Wii Fit has to on stage (though as I explained in a previous post, this doesn't make Sun Salutation remotely bad). Which means no risk of it being reflected if used properly, and less risk of needlessly wasting a full charge.

The charge ball projectiles just by default of being holdable high power buttons make them all extremely good and I would argue the baseline for A tier neutral b moves. Chargeables force opponents to play differently. I mean, most notably, another very good neutral b, Luigi's fireballs, become extremely risky to use against a chargeable. CS is just obviously not S tier imo when Monado Arts exist and Sheik's needle juggling and needle bouncing fish exist. And Aura Sphere and Pocket for that matter are better than CS. Past that, I think there are very few neutral b moves that are necessarily better than CS. Maybe Bonus Fruit, Can, or Shadow Ball.
 
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SteadyDisciple

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Call it character bias, but I would definitely move Wii Fit Trainer's Sun Salutation higher on that list, probably about on par with Shadow Ball, Water Shuriken, and Luigi Fireballs. At the end of the day, Sun Salutation is one of the strongest projectiles in the game in terms of straight damage, which also makes it great for trumping other smaller projectiles. Also, while it might be slower moving and slightly less damaging than the other, similar chargeable projectiles, it has one thing going for it that none of the other moves listed here do. It heals the user when fired at full charge. Combine that with how easy it is to get a full charge (can be charged in the air unlike Charge Shot and cancels into dodge/shield/grab/jump/U-smash), and you'll often see a Wii Fit Trainer player just sit back and throw out this move over and over again, because if your opponent lacks a reflector/absorber spamming it is also slowly but surely healing you. The windbox while it's charging can also be used to mess with some character's recoveries when used correctly.

Also, maybe it's just been too long since I've played Little Mac, but I seem to remember Straight Lunge being terrible, outside of punishing shield breaks or escaping a handful of multihits using it's heavy armor. The hit comes out slow, it's super telegraphed, pretty easy to punish (especially on a full charge) and the armor stops if you fire it early, meaning it can be intercepted pretty easily by other attacks as well. Has some tech appeared for this move I'm unaware of?
 

Vyrnx

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Also, maybe it's just been too long since I've played Little Mac, but I seem to remember Straight Lunge being terrible, outside of punishing shield breaks or escaping a handful of multihits using it's heavy armor. The hit comes out slow, it's super telegraphed, pretty easy to punish (especially on a full charge) and the armor stops if you fire it early, meaning it can be intercepted pretty easily by other attacks as well. Has some tech appeared for this move I'm unaware of?
They're rating it high because of KO punch being his neutral b as well
 

Nathan Richardson

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S tier is out of the question, but CS and the other chargeables have way more utility than the majority of neutral b's.

CS' speed to come out and move in the air is impressive, and it's already a 25 damage/high KO power button you can hold. It has tech chase setups, edge guarding, combo, punish, ledge get up, and shield breaking utility that no other neutral b packs all in one.

It'd be nice if it could be charged in the air, but it's the only chargeable (referring to the charge ball variants, not bonus fruit and thunder) with a whole bunch of setups that lead into it. WFT has one low percent tech chase (at 20%?) off of ftilt, Mewtwo I believe also does off of ftilt, Lucario might have some specific stuff. Samus has namely sweetspot ftilt to CS at ~30, jab combo to CS at ~60, sour ftilt to CS at ~105, and most importantly zair to CS starting at about 90 and having a big window. Against fast fallers who often have very long forced tech windows, zair is fantastic.

The other chargeables serve different purposes while being excellent in their own rights. CS' purpose is being land-able and meshing with Samus's horizontal hitboxes. It's the easiest chargeable to kill, and again, having a 25 damage high KO power holdable move that has the most utility in advantage state of the chargeables (except Aura Sphere at the ledge, though I'm talking about the physical projectiles in motion) demands a great deal of respect. Samus never has to just guess and shoot in the neutral ever, like, say, Wii Fit has to on stage (though as I explained in a previous post, this doesn't make Sun Salutation remotely bad). Which means no risk of it being reflected if used properly, and less risk of needlessly wasting a full charge.

The charge ball projectiles just by default of being holdable high power buttons make them all extremely good and I would argue the baseline for A tier neutral b moves. Chargeables force opponents to play differently. I mean, most notably, another very good neutral b, Luigi's fireballs, become extremely risky to use against a chargeable. CS is just obviously not S tier imo when Monado Arts exist and Sheik's needle juggling and needle bouncing fish exist. And Aura Sphere and Pocket for that matter are better than CS. Past that, I think there are very few neutral b moves that are necessarily better than CS. Maybe Bonus Fruit, Can, or Shadow Ball.
There we go, with all that info we can say that yes CS is A-tier. Evidence seriously helps here, thanks for the explanation, though with that it sounds like you need to be wary no matter when Samus has CS regardless of whether it's charged fully or not...
 

SteadyDisciple

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They're rating it high because of KO punch being his neutral b as well
Ah, right, not sure how I forgot that... yeah, I can see it then. K.O. Punch is one of the best moves in the game if you can keep it. Frame 8 hit that kills every character around the 30% mark from anywhere on stage is pretty rad, especially where it can be used to end combos. It still feels a little high to me due to how long it takes to get, and you can lose it for getting hit, and it doesn't work worth anything in the air, and it can be hard punished on a miss, but not far enough off to make a fuss about it.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Chargeable and storable projectiles are A tier at worst, I don't even know how this is a debate. They force approaches and are a huge part of why certain characters have a neutral as good as they do *cough* M2 and Sheik *cough*
 

Funbot28

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Ok so here is the initial list for Neutral-Special:


Olimar is N/A cause his neutral special is just too complex to compare with the other neutral-specials. Also there is a lot in C-tier, which I feel could have more discussion on.
 

Nathan Richardson

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er not to be a pain, but I took one look at the rankings and I can just tell this isn't going to go well, several characters are one tier lower than what we discussed (we have more than enough evidence and discussion that Samus goes in A rank) the whole 'zard vs. bowser' debate was ignored since they're both in C tier (when due to their utility they can be in B tier. We even discussed why they'd be in B tier) and both villager and Megaman are far too high on the tier list.
 

ARGHETH

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Move Robin, WFT, and Samus up to A. We were literally just talking about this.
Pit to B. Arrows are amazing.
Corrin and Ryu could stand to move down to C.
 

Nathan Richardson

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Corrin's neutral B has a stunning property and both blows can be charged, it's definitely not A material but it could be B because if you get hit by the first you're going to get hit by the second. Agree with ryu though.
 

ARGHETH

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Corrin's neutral B has a stunning property and both blows can be charged, it's definitely not A material but it could be B because if you get hit by the first you're going to get hit by the second. Agree with ryu though.
I know how it works (I'm a Corrin main), but the bite is laggy and both get cancelled out by basically anything.
 

Masonomace

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Funbot28 Funbot28
:4falcon:'s Punch I feel warrants F tier. The move isn't even his strongest move when in design it should be, but that's what happens when your move has 0 BKB. . FP simply is just used for either hype-style or disrespect in a combo video. However, it's cute off-stage for edge-guards from low recoveries on a stage with wall-jumping reassurance to help you make it back. Because Falcon has the 2nd best wall-jump shared with Little Mac in that regard.
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Aside from that, I can't but think that ranking these moves can just come down to, "how often does this move get used? Little to none? Occasionally? Quite frequent? Good amount? Or constantly all the time?". And only because of that thought when I look at the preliminary rankings list, I would rank :4kirby:, :4littlemac:, :rosalina:, & :4ness: differently but probably lower for reasons I'll mention.
:4kirby:'s Inhale is a dual-move that either has the Copy Ability of the victim, or they're spit-out by Kirby's will (or you just wait & have the grab-break animation if you wanna use that). Obviously if the Kirby player decided that the Copy Ability isn't worth having & prefers the Inhale variant, that's fine. However, there's things that are flawed / bad about the spitting star attack in case this move is being ranked A just because of Copy Ability & not talking about the Spitting Star. This is what happens when you learn about stuff because of labbing it yourself:
  1. Inhale can be shielded at a semi-close proximity & not be sucked in from the windbox
  2. Kirby at higher percents makes both Inhale & Spitting Star much worse in performance (You: What how??)
    a. Kirby inhaling at a lower % has more time to move & then spit. This is all dependent on the victim mashing or not.
    b. Kirby inhaling at a higher % has no time to move & spit. The victim doesn't have to religiously mash as hard.
    c. Kirby's spitting star launches them quite far ONLY if they don't mash & Kirby has low %, but just mash & you'll be good.
    d. Kirby at high % spitting someone as a star launches them way less distance & they escape out of the star much faster.
  3. You can't see these differences in Training Mode. You have to go to VS Mode & play an actual match with Rage to see it.
  4. Kirby imprisons the victim longer if their damage meter has higher %. Add the fact that Kirby has low %, & it's a long time.
  5. The usual grab-break on Kirby's end likely results in Kirby being pushed back taking around the same endlag as the victim.
On the same topic, :4dedede:'s Inhale & Spitting Star are also guilty for some of these problems. There are differences though:
  • His Spitting Star launch distance remains constant regardless of his current %. Low % or high % it's all the same distance.
  • DDD's usual grab-break is quite casual & more rewarding than Kirby's. They simply get lobbed upward above DDD.
  • DDD's Inhale frame data in terms of jumpsquat, endlag lang upon landing, the airtime, it's all much worse than Kirby's.
  • DDD's Inhale movement is slower. . .Yes Kirby walks around faster than DDD.
In short, DDD possesses a better Inhale/Spitting Star attack than Kirby, yet Kirby having Copy Ability makes it better BUT it really depends on that Copy Ability. Afaik, Kirby's Copy Ability has been known to either be an upgrade, even-ish performance, or worse version of the original neutral special.
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:4littlemac:'s Straight Lunge does have applications & some neat stuff. Like for example there's apparently %-based heavy armor in the channeling before letting it rip & that heavy armor lasts for a loooong time. Even while the hitbox is going out full-force there's some heavy armor in there. But I've learned from some Little macs enough to know that this move has some usage. But rating it so high only because of KO Punch also makes sense. It rarely happens in a match maybe up to 1-2 times, but when it works, it works right? The usage on both moves are so low though. . .yet despite of that issue KO Punch makes up for the lack-of Straight Lunge when it seals deals. But even KO Punch has flaws when you don't get kill-confirms out of combos necessary for the secure, such as the awkward windbox that pushes them too far away or the notion that this move can be grab-interrupted. And it has to be grounded in order to be amazing, but to Little Mac that's easy anyway. Honestly my verdict after this is still mixed, but they're a set ultimately, & I'd rank the overall move at least B tier. I could say that KO Punch is S tier-level, but my Shield art says otherwise.:p Oh & even if you leave the jumpsquat period & are gonna be airborne on frame 6, inputting Straight Lunge on frame 6 still "jump-cancels" & has Little Mac grounded again. So uhh, cool I guess.

EDIT: The %-based heavy armor rule requires a move that deals 8.05% or higher to break the armor. Little Mac's Dtilt dealing 8% couldn't do it, but Shield Shulk's Dash attack dealing 8.05% can I guess. Apparently just 8% won't do. Thanks developers?
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:rosalina: & :4ness: I have much less knowledge about, so I'll just give TL;DR-worthy responses to them. Rosalina only has a function-able neutral special when Luma is alive. It acts as a neat positioning tool to place Luma in X location for some double-play action or just to zone with Luma hitboxes that are formidable. Otherwise, the move is just a slight-pushback windbox in Luma's absence. It seems fine to be at C I feel, but with how players are getting better & better at removing Luma from play, this is just another move that becomes less-used as time in the metagame progresses. That's kinda why I feel the move is D-tier right now, but keep in mind I did say I have little knowledge about it, so feel free to educate / open the truth in a reply if you want. Ness on the hand, I suppose it's his "this is what I'll use when your shield breaks" move. I also recall that it forces a ledge option if it's stalled with good timing out of fear, but other than that I rarely see PK Flash used or even getting channeled & aimed downward near ledge-area. The characters I play simply avoid that or just make him regret life with a destructive punish killing at 0% with a Vision. Besides, Dsmash & Usmash are much better ledge-tools for 2-framing & what not. It only lasting one frame regardless of charge time is really. . .not good either.:ohwell: And the endlag after is kinda atrocious as well, but like I said, little knowledge on this too so shed the light if you want.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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:4villager: apparently can use Pocket's ability on 44/58 characters of the cast, but I could be wrong on that exact detail. So that's still pretty good since the amount you'd use Pocket at all can be low or very high usage in a character-MU. It's also nutty-crazy to use in certain matchups such as :4dedede:. Even without the ability, intangibility is pretty neat to have & it's a unique ability that doesn't exactly absorb or reflect. Against those apparent 14 characters that don't care about the Pocket ability, it won't see very much usage if at all unless you find / theorycraft ideas of when to use it, but otherwise the move is pretty solid.
It's the best neutral special in the game to do B-Reverse with because it has minimal commitment, intangability frames and is immune to projectiles. It's a top 5 anti-juggle tool, if not straight up the best.

:059:
 

Routa

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I would personally put all chargeable (storeable) projectiles to A tier expect perhaps the Gunner's. I would also switch slots between Kirby and Wario. I mean you can cover a lot of ledge options with Chomp alone and it is one of the best platform pressure tools. Add to that you get healed from eating specific stuff and getting waft charge for each % healed is great. You can get 4% from Bike parts alone. As for Fox... the Lazers are not that great. The do minimal amount of damage and wont pressure anyone. And like Gheb said... Pocket is amazing. It is sad that Villagers dont use it as much as they should.
 

Masonomace

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~ Gheb ~ ~ Gheb ~ Routa Routa
I can dig that. 19 frames of intangibility is pretty good to phase through trouble, but I wanna also say that 27 frames of endlag after intangibility finishes is not as delicious. Perhaps I shouldn't express my experiences into discussion(?), though I've dealt with Pocket moments just fine & punished it with Shulk against the few Villagers in my region. Otherwise, I dare not challenge it with a projectile-user even if it doesn't get collected. The move regardless is great & I can agree with those points. Forgot about Pocket being that good with a B-Reverse.

The B-Reverse specials I find great are Shulk, Lucario, & Diddy Kong for said reasons:
  1. Shulk's B-Reverse art activation has i-frames from 1-5 if you choose to act on frame 6, & you can input anything you want while being grounded or airborne.
  2. Lucario's B-Reverse Aura Sphere needs no reasoning. We all know the B-Reverse traps into JCU kill-confirms.
  3. Diddy Kong's B-Reverse Popgun can be canceled & grants Diddy this huge distance shift of movement that's very hard to punish.
Can't think of the other amazing B-Reversed neutral b's atm.
I would personally put all chargeable (storeable) projectiles to A tier expect perhaps the Gunner's. I would also switch slots between Kirby and Wario. I mean you can cover a lot of ledge options with Chomp alone and it is one of the best platform pressure tools. Add to that you get healed from eating specific stuff and getting waft charge for each % healed is great. You can get 4% from Bike parts alone. As for Fox... the Lazers are not that great. The do minimal amount of damage and wont pressure anyone.
Just a tad of nit-picking here, the only chargeable projectiles that can be stored iirc are :4sheik::4mewtwo::4lucario::4wiifit::4samus: & :4pacman:.

If :4bayonetta: & :4robinm: could store their charging, that would be super helpful for them. Robin has to start over from Thunder charging if he stopped on ElThunder trying to get to ArcThunder but other than that, Thunder is still great. I would go into hypothetical, "what if these moves could be canceled with shield?!", but we'll leave it at that.
EDIT: I'm dumb. Robin can store charge, you just have to meet the next Thunder move in line-up. So you can charge from ElThunder if you stopped on ElThunder.
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:4metaknight: at C tier seems low for him. Mach Tornado on-hit succession deals butt-loads of damage aka at least over 21-22% on your first usage fresh. A dthrow → MT can deal almost up to 30% for example. And the hitbox activity easily covers ledge options back onto stage. I wouldn't be against ranking this move at least B tier even though the connection is pretty good-vibes worthy of A-tier in a way.
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:4rob:'s Laser is pretty good. C-tier seems low for it too mostly because the move can be used a great amount of times per stock to make your opponent sit in shield for a good while, or you can be lazy & have it wait to be full-charge laser & deal more damage & kb. Generally you want to use more pew-pew lasers for the better pressure they emit. The fact that the range on them is ridiculous because it's the length of Final Destination & that it can be angled ↑ or ↓ with a bouncing angling off the floor. Aaaand the laser can't be challenged so it cannot clank either.
 
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ARGHETH

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If :4bayonetta: & :4robinm: could store their charging, that would be super helpful for them. Robin has to start over from Thunder charging if he stopped on ElThunder trying to get to ArcThunder but other than that, Thunder is still great. I would go into hypothetical, "what if these moves could be canceled with shield?!", but we'll leave it at that.
Uhhh
wat
You can charge after stopping.
Like, charging to the Elthunder stage after shielding will start you off from Elthunder. You're probably thinking of Thunder's weird property where it starts from each stage after shielding. If you shield halfway into Elthunder->Arcthunder charge, it'll start over from the beginning of the Elthunder charge, not from Thunder.
 

Masonomace

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Uhhh
wat
You can charge after stopping.
Like, charging to the Elthunder stage after shielding will start you off from Elthunder. You're probably thinking of Thunder's weird property where it starts from each stage after shielding. If you shield halfway into Elthunder->Arcthunder charge, it'll start over from the beginning of the Elthunder charge, not from Thunder.
Already edited before your reply. I recalled badly on the move & should know this because I have a Robin player in my region. Smh I'm dippin' n' slippin'.

EDIT: Actually, while I can edit this one yeah you have a point. It would be even more cool if Thunder could be stored exactly on said frame charging during a Thunder phase. That way it wouldn't take as long to get from one Thunder move in the line-up to the next if you had to stop & re-charge again from the beginning of the last-phase.
 
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FamilyTeam

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Somehow Marth and Lucina being at C doesn't feel right (especially behind Ryu?...). However, what definitely doesn't feel right is Falco's being worse than Falcon and Warlock Punch. His blaster really isn't anything good, but at the very least it has use - Falcon and Warlock Punch are just moves you use on FG people.
Robin not being A even after all the discussion supporting that is also really strange.
 

Vyrnx

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There's also the ability to pocket moves like gyro, banana, metal blade, and bike and prevent the opponent from using them. And the actual reflection of moves is really strong and difficult to react to.
 

Routa

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There's also the ability to pocket moves like gyro, banana, metal blade, and bike and prevent the opponent from using them. And the actual reflection of moves is really strong and difficult to react to.
Pocket is the main reason why Warios dislike the Villager MU. That kid can pocket our main way to recover from far distances and it removes good bunch of our waft setups and traps. Not fun at all.
 
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|RK|

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Funbot28 Funbot28
:4falcon:'s Punch I feel warrants F tier. The move isn't even his strongest move when in design it should be, but that's what happens when your move has 0 BKB. . FP simply is just used for either hype-style or disrespect in a combo video. However, it's cute off-stage for edge-guards from low recoveries on a stage with wall-jumping reassurance to help you make it back. Because Falcon has the 2nd best wall-jump shared with Little Mac in that regard.
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-
Aside from that, I can't but think that ranking these moves can just come down to, "how often does this move get used? Little to none? Occasionally? Quite frequent? Good amount? Or constantly all the time?". And only because of that thought when I look at the preliminary rankings list, I would rank :4kirby:, :4littlemac:, :rosalina:, & :4ness: differently but probably lower for reasons I'll mention.
:4kirby:'s Inhale is a dual-move that either has the Copy Ability of the victim, or they're spit-out by Kirby's will (or you just wait & have the grab-break animation if you wanna use that). Obviously if the Kirby player decided that the Copy Ability isn't worth having & prefers the Inhale variant, that's fine. However, there's things that are flawed / bad about the spitting star attack in case this move is being ranked A just because of Copy Ability & not talking about the Spitting Star. This is what happens when you learn about stuff because of labbing it yourself:
  1. Inhale can be shielded at a semi-close proximity & not be sucked in from the windbox
  2. Kirby at higher percents makes both Inhale & Spitting Star much worse in performance (You: What how??)
    a. Kirby inhaling at a lower % has more time to move & then spit. This is all dependent on the victim mashing or not.
    b. Kirby inhaling at a higher % has no time to move & spit. The victim doesn't have to religiously mash as hard.
    c. Kirby's spitting star launches them quite far ONLY if they don't mash & Kirby has low %, but just mash & you'll be good.
    d. Kirby at high % spitting someone as a star launches them way less distance & they escape out of the star much faster.
  3. You can't see these differences in Training Mode. You have to go to VS Mode & play an actual match with Rage to see it.
  4. Kirby imprisons the victim longer if their damage meter has higher %. Add the fact that Kirby has low %, & it's a long time.
  5. The usual grab-break on Kirby's end likely results in Kirby being pushed back taking around the same endlag as the victim.
Star spit is just bad outside of doubles, and people shouldn't be using it. The copy is the real meat of the move.

Also, slight correction - star spit shoots far based on the *difference* between Kirby's percentage and the opponent's percentage. If Kirby has 200% and the opponent has 400%, it will shoot very quickly and very far. So it's not just Kirby having a low percentage - it's anything significantly lower than what his opponent has.

But again - star spit is garbage and it upsets me every time I see it used. Copy does more damage and gives you a wider variety of tools to play with that are valuable in almost any case. This is much more useful than 6% and negligible positional advantage, if you get even that much.

And I stand by Kirby being in A - or maybe directly under the last abilities you wouldn't trade anything for. So under needles, Aura Sphere, Monado Arts, etc. Though I acknowledge that in some cases, Kirby's stature is what makes the ability most useful. Charge Shot and Straight Lunge, for example, become genuinely amazing on a short character.
 

BSP

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My last tid-bit I'll say about arts before I give anymore insight about other moves, is that Buster & Smash are also crucial to use. Buster on-hit then buffer deactivated can create kill confirms most notably out of Nair landing, but includes other options too. BSP BSP mentioning about Pac-Man wanting arts over BF kinda shocked me, but Pac-Man with Buster would make his Dash attack & Nair wayyy safer on-block (Frame 3 Nair dealing 14% on-block & only suffering 12 frames of landing lag??:love:). .
It shocked you? Fruit is good, but it's not that good.

MA overall would help Pac-Man a lot more imo, but that may just be me. Buster would give Pac-Man instant hydrant launches back + make some moves absolutely ridiculous on block. Seriously, I think his Nair and Uair would be safer than Falcon's Uair, and that move is already stupid. Smash would make trampoline a somewhat serious KO option at higher %. Jump, Speed, and Shield each have their own utility, and speed specifically would probably allow Pac-Man to dash through his own hydrant. Speed trampolines? Yes please. I may be alone, but I would easily give up fruit for MA.

Uhhh
wat
You can charge after stopping.
Like, charging to the Elthunder stage after shielding will start you off from Elthunder. You're probably thinking of Thunder's weird property where it starts from each stage after shielding. If you shield halfway into Elthunder->Arcthunder charge, it'll start over from the beginning of the Elthunder charge, not from Thunder.
Wow, that's pretty stupid considering Pac's charge keeps track of where he was exactly when he chose to store the move. Then again, Pac's things are items and can be stolen, so I guess it's fair?


@Rizen the fun is in the journey, not the destination! Some of the final lists turn out eh, but just discussing the moves is the fun part to me.
 
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G. Stache

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I stand by Luigi being A, B tier is a bit too low for it in my opinion. What surprises me, though, is greninja's shurikens sitting in B as well. I don't know too much about Greninja, but shurikens themselves are fast, annoying and quick when it comes to frame data (uncharged shurikens come out frame 20 and the FAF is 46. That's alarmingly close to Luigi's fireball frame data). Fully charged ones are also transcendent, give stage control and hitting them can lead into combos. From first glances it looks like it should be in A tier. Although Greninja mains could probably do better explaining about this move than I could
 

Mr. Johan

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It would be even more cool if Thunder could be stored exactly on said frame charging during a Thunder phase. That way it wouldn't take as long to get from one Thunder move in the line-up to the next if you had to stop & re-charge again from the beginning of the last-phase.
Yeah, I mentioned this on my writeup on Thunder. It can be both good and bad.

Robin's tiered charge system is both a blessing and a curse: blessing in that Robin can continue to feint charging to the next tier in neutral without dwindling the waiting period, curse in that having to reset back to the beginning of the tier can sometimes prevent Robin from getting the charge you want in the face of zoners and rushdowners until you get a hit confirm.
Compared to other chargeable specials aside from Bonus Fruit, Robin's Thunder charges have clearly defined uses, so it makes sense to have the charge reset on cancel so you keep a specific Thunder on hand. If Robin wants to stick to Elthunder for a specific purpose, he can stick with Elthunder as long as he wants, all the while demand a specific respect from his opponents when he begins charging again.

Half the problem with Thoron is its 20 frame startup. The other half is that the trick is effectively over - when he presses B again, you know Thoron has to come out at that specific frame; there's no way to delay it or feint it. The move is super mobile and has infinite range to compensate, but it not having the same fakeout property as the other three does hurt it.
 

Crystanium

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Yeah, you didn't give a ton of data to warrant it being up that high. (sorry for editing, my web browser keeps eating my posts, or my posts don't get through at all)
I see it being in A tier but only low A tier. It has excellent power, range, and as you stated it can break shields.
However it needs three full CS to break a shield and Air dodge nullifies it plus it can't be charged in midair plus when it is charging Samus freezes and can only move by Spot dodge or dodge roll if an opponent presses their advantage. You're very vulnerable to grabs at this time, plus how many frames does it take to fully charge the shot? We need more info but noone will say anything about her.
It doesn't need three full CSs to break shields. A single bomb or super missile to CS will do. People are prone to shield these attacks when grounded, especially bombs. Air dodging is a fun thing because the CS has a large hit box, and no sensible Samus main would just fire a CS without waiting for an opening. If an opponent lands while air dodging, they leave themselves open for an easy hit. Because the majority of players play reactively, getting close to them will induce an air dodge. Furthermore, Samus has homing missiles and super missiles, so if her opponent takes the hit, then a CS will most likely land. If they dodge, same thing.

Charging CS leaves Samus no more vulnerable than Cloud charging Limit or Lucario charging Aura Sphere. Samus isn't a sitting duck. If she has to shield, then she'll shield. If her opponent gets close enough, she can do use Screw Attack OoS. Furthermore, because people are oblivious of Samus' ability to instantly grab out of charging CS, they tend to get grabbed by surprise. Rolling is not a useful option, but anyway, charging a CS to shield to moving away is not as problematic as you make it out to be. A full charge takes more than 1.5 seconds, it seems, but less than 1.7 seconds. Also, CS has increased knockback growth from 56 to 62, charges slightly faster and travels significantly faster. It's not telegraphed like it was in Brawl.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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CS has true block strings to break full shields, is a chargeable storeable projectile with the same properties as others, can be comboed into from her ftilt regardless of how they tech, and can be used in landing traps with Samus up air. I'm tempted to call it an S tier move honestly.
 

TheHypnotoad

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Move all of the chargeable/storeable projectiles to A tier (Robin, Samus, WFT, Pacman). I would also move Luigi to A tier.

Move Meta Knight, Ike, and Pit to B tier.
 

SteadyDisciple

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I stand by Luigi being A, B tier is a bit too low for it in my opinion. What surprises me, though, is greninja's shurikens sitting in B as well. I don't know too much about Greninja, but shurikens themselves are fast, annoying and quick when it comes to frame data (uncharged shurikens come out frame 20 and the FAF is 46. That's alarmingly close to Luigi's fireball frame data). Fully charged ones are also transcendent, give stage control and hitting them can lead into combos. From first glances it looks like it should be in A tier. Although Greninja mains could probably do better explaining about this move than I could
Not a Greninja MAIN, but I might be able to elaborate on this a little nonetheless, and agree that this really feels like an A tier move.

First the basics. As stated, WS at no charge comes out at frame 20 and has a FAF of 46, which is pretty solid. The base damage of 3 percent is nothing to write home about, but it does its job. The travel speed is very fast and it has decent range, making it a nice poke in the neutral as well as a great way to disrupt opponents who are trying to charge bigger projectiles of their own. It clanks with many projectiles (though grounded will also go under a few of them without touching), and does have a high enough rate of fire that you can usually force projectile-heavy opponents to approach you. It can be used to set up various 50:50 at different percents as well. Finally, despite popular belief, it isn't a projectile that can be absorbed. Even just with this it would be a decent move, but we're just getting started.

WS can be charged, and while it cannot be stored it does get a good tradeoff for this. Due to how fast the shuriken can be released and its travel speed, it can't be power shielded or reflected on reaction, making the tactic of "walk up and power shield" that works on many projectiles absolutely worthless in the right hands, and invalidating reflectors that don't stay out for a long time, such as Mario's Cape or Ness's F-smash. The damage also continues to go up as you do this (capping at 10% I believe?), and the hit box increases in size.

Fully charged WS, like Robin's Thoron or Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit, is effectively an entirely different projectile. Coming out on frame 60, The fully charged variant has a much larger hitbox than uncharged (though it keeps with the size scaling of partial charges), and while it is significantly slower it has also been changed to a multi-hit move, staying out for 40 frames and dragging an opponent hit with it as it travels into a larger blast at the end with greatly increased kill power. It deals a maximum of 13.2% damage, with the last hit dealing 9% of that. This move can start combos at some percentages (including some if it hits shield), hits opponents hanging from the ledge at any point in its travel, and has traded in the uncharged clanking usages for transcendent priority. This means it may no longer be stopped by other attacks, INCLUDING PROJECTILES WITH HURTBOXES, something no other projectile can do (as far as I know?). While it may take a while to charge to this point, the fact that at any point during the charge it can be released as a completely different move makes for awesome mixups.

Also, while this last bit may not exist in as much of a vacuum as people might like, WS has one more trait that, for Greninja at least, makes it amazing. Whenever you fire WS for the first time in the air, at any amount of charge, it will stall the character using it in their fall, technically providing a little "mini jump" of sorts. While this isn't enough to gain any vertical distance on Greninja (though it does get a little for Kirby...), it does allow Greninja to stay in the air the exact amount of time needed for his ridiculous footstool combos. So... yeah. Not super helpful when measuring the value of this move entirely separate from the kit around it, but worth chewing on for a bit.

The move does have some issues that keep it from being top tier however, namely that it cannot be canceled. This means some characters (like Sheik or Zero Suit Samus) can just go over the projectile's path for some pretty heavy punishes at mid range, and characters with long lasting reflectors (like Pit or Fox) can intentionally just sit in the way with reflector up and wait for Geninja to hit himself with it. Also, while full charge has a lot of unique properties that make it really good for mixups, it is still a slow moving and slow to fire variant, making it hard to use except as a mixup or on a read. Still, almost all of these drawbacks can be avoided by sticking mostly to uncharged or partial charge. Heck, the slow speed of full charge can also be a boon, since at longer range Grenina can still avoid reflected ones by just letting them fully charge, and opponents who drop their reflector early can still get pelted by partial charge on reaction in some cases.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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Before we shove everything into an A tier, let's bring some moves back down to earth.

:4greninja:Can't cancel the move during charge, easy bait for a reflector. And air approaches are completely safe whether he throws early or goes for the full charge. It can still bait an approach, but If I'm ahead a stock and Greninja throws tiny shuriken at me from a safe distance, I'll stand my ground and block or avoid every one. It's not at all like Samus or Cloud's Limit charge where they're getting more dangerous as I leave them alone. The fully charged shuriken also has some unique problems. Before its final hit, it deals just 0.6 damage, which is very low priority. Ganon and Bowser can get clean through it with their dash attacks, hitting Greninja and not taking damage from the projectile. Ganon and Falcon also have Down B. But if you try an attack that doesn't deal 9.6 or more damage, you will get caught by the rest of the attack. Finally, when you block the full shuriken, you can dodge roll out of the multihits. An issue so prevalent that Greninjas regularly prepare for the dodge chase. Blocking full charge shuriken isn't ever ideal, but having this way out of danger is a serious flaw in the move's design.

:4sheik:Can cancel into shield...but not on frame 1. Once she charges the first needle, Sheik must perform a 8 frame transition before shield comes up. I should point out now that she does have frame 1 dodge roll by pressing left and right during charge, but it's a poor mixup choice. Her only alternative attack options being throw current needles, pull up shield and grab (14 startup), pull up shield and short hop aerial (15 startup). And really, needles aren't threatening to get hit with. 7-11% damage is a lot for her toolkit, but she's not a character with an abundance of kill moves and setups. Tacking on some extra percent is a miniscule step towards earning the next stock. And again, the opponent should only be baited if they're trying to earn a stock lead. Plus a full barrage of six needles still allows time for a guaranteed dash grab if you're within range after blocking. And if the victim is 0 to low%, needles deal such little hitstun that you can still have frame advantage against her after taking a hit. So getting in close while she's charging can benefit you whether you block or get hit.

:4dk: The only other charge up move that lacks a frame 1 shield transition, in case anybody was wondering. I don't have a frame data source to back it up, but I assume his transition is 8 frames, plus whatever it takes to finish the current wind. So 8-20, going by Brawl's frame data. That being said, I like giant punch's design a lot, even when all it affords DK tool kit is something to force approaches with. C feels appropriate.

:4diddy:I don't see this as A tier. In fact, I don't think it's even B. Being able to shield cancel is about the best thing for this attack. Because unlike other projectiles you can pick up the nut out of the air and use it as your own. Mega Man has that issue too, but there are few truly scary applications for Metal Blade that involve throwing it directly at the opponent. Peanut Popgun's explosion from full charge is Diddy's strongest individual attack in terms of knockback, but the projectile itself is low reward and wouldn't gimp recoveries if it did hit.

:4luigi:Come on guys, everybody knows how to deal with this one. Blocking it results in 7 + 3 shieldlag/shieldstun. 17 frames total before you finish putting down shield. Meanwhile, getting hit by the fireball incurs about 3 frames of hitstun and doesn't move you more than an inch away. Even at high % the result won't scale much. Luigi wants to use this move at maximum range in order to blockstring a dash grab, so stay out of that range. If you're lucky enough to have closed in before getting hit, that's a free smash attack, dash grab, whichever move lets you inflict the most violence to make up the 6% damage. You can also stay out of its effective range and fire/charge projectiles of your own. It's a good projectile, whose slow travel speed matches Luigi's slow movement, but quickly becomes less threatening once you understand the point of it. Perhaps better than C tier, but certainly not A.

:4feroy:I really don't see a point. Marth/Lucina's shieldbreaker has massive range and deals extra shield damage. Roy has ten less endlag on his move, but what do you accomplish by landing this 23 startup attack anyway? Instant kill on a full charge is nice, but for a shield break scenario, just push them to the ledge and you'll only need them to have about 25% damage for full charged Fsmash to secure the stock. The hitbox is tied to the explosion and not the sword, allowing for good horizontal disjoint but not vertical, defeating the potential for this to be an alternative Fair. I see this in D.

:rosalina:How often do we see players use this? The projectile itself does not give her shield/dodge rolls while charging, and a reflected full charge can kill rosalina extremely early. Rosalina and Luma are much safer and threatening when both characters are together. Separations happen when Rosalina gets hurt, not because the player put him somewhere else. By firing Luma away from you, you invite the opponent to kill Luma while he's alone and far away from Rosalina. Normally, you have to get a hit in on her in order to have such an advantageous state. Plus the move does absolutely nothing if no Luma exists. I've a theory for how this could have been a good move. Have it so you can place Luma right where he is with an animation as fast or faster than the recall. This would allow you to use Luma as a positional hazard and get those sweet benefits from Luma being separated. But as is, I see this being D at the highest.

:4falcon:I stand by what I said earlier. This attack has zero place in his moveset by being the second strongest attack for a shield break scenario. Also, with 17 years of smash bros, do people still smirk when they see a falcon punch? I award it no style/hype points. Falcon's neutral B is the worst in the game, rivaled only by Jigglypuff's in my opinion.

:4robinm:Similar to Arcfire, Arcthunder can be dodge rolled out of if you block it. I see people wait out both moves all the time in their shield and it makes me mad. Since Arcthunder uses a quarter of the tome's durability, it's worth the ground you've lost by dodge rolling away. But I also would put Robin in A. 4 choices of projectile and all are good to great. And having both this and the fire tome lets you zone almost forever if you remember to favor one over the other at a time, mitigating the issue of tomes needing to recharge. Fire relies on Thunder while Thunder in turn relies on Fire, it's good design.

Edit: oh and :4villager:. It's a move whose utility is 100% dependent on the matchup. Most characters in the game have some projectile yes, but are they all worth it? Even if you wanted a single sheik needle or ember from Flamethrower, Villager must finish the pocket animation before its stored. So if you grabbed a sheik needle from a barrage of 6, the 6th would hit you, and you end up with no needle. People say pocket is no problem if you just stop using projectiles; that the other character is really in control of this threat. But the ultimate result of that mentality is still that the opponent loses entire moves from their set by choice. So the existence of Pocket matters regardless of how the other person plays their character. That's powerful, but I have no idea where it should rank when all its applications are unique to specific scenarios. But A seems a bit high when you can name matchups in which Villager effectively has no Neutral B.
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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:4fox: Should be B imo, it's not as safe as it used to be but you can't neglect the amount of extra damage you can rack up with stray lasers during the course of a match. A campy Fox can tack on a additional 10-15% with lasers throughout a match which can make the difference if you get that up smash kill or not. In addition lasers can force approaches.

Another underrated use of laser spam is to get moves off the stale move queue, if the opponent just shields your full screen lasers you can unstale more important moves faster and you'll be safe while doing so.

Also :4ness: is just not good at all PKT2 has more base knock back and growth. So it's a better move to use to get maximum KO potential off a shield break.
 

Masonomace

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Star spit is just bad outside of doubles, and people shouldn't be using it. The copy is the real meat of the move.

Also, slight correction - star spit shoots far based on the *difference* between Kirby's percentage and the opponent's percentage. If Kirby has 200% and the opponent has 400%, it will shoot very quickly and very far. So it's not just Kirby having a low percentage - it's anything significantly lower than what his opponent has.

But again - star spit is garbage and it upsets me every time I see it used. Copy does more damage and gives you a wider variety of tools to play with that are valuable in almost any case. This is much more useful than 6% and negligible positional advantage, if you get even that much.

And I stand by Kirby being in A - or maybe directly under the last abilities you wouldn't trade anything for. So under needles, Aura Sphere, Monado Arts, etc. Though I acknowledge that in some cases, Kirby's stature is what makes the ability most useful. Charge Shot and Straight Lunge, for example, become genuinely amazing on a short character.
Neat. Thanks for the additional info. Unfortunately Star spit is even worse than we're describing because again, a standard form of mashing from the victim causes them to escape from the star form swiftly even when they're spit-out at a ridiculously high % while Kirby was at a very low %. No matter what the current % for both Kirby & the victim are, mashing invalidates this move entirely & that's a huge let down. . .

I just don't know if Inhale/Copy Ability/Star spit is a A-tier move with all things considered. I'd honestly just say that Kirby is the tier list itself because it's literally MU-dependent to create a ditto-scenario with that original special move. It's one thing for Villager's Pocket to be MU-dependent due to projectiles needed to make it more useful in a match, but Inhale depends solely on the victim you fight. This makes me more curious about the exact similarities & differences between every Copy Ability vs the original special though. I didn't think Straight-Lunge would be great on Kirby, but hey I'm not against it. Does Kirby have the same %-based heavy armor in his Straight Lunge like Little Mac's?? And speaking of that, in general knowing the exact differences between every Copy Ability to the original would be much more key & provide absolute dominance of an A-tier at least to me (I'm a lab junkie when it comes to that).
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N Nathan Richardson @der Rabe Nathan's not wrong about one thing. You DO need three full-power Charge Shots to break a full shield, Shield Shulk's bubble shield.:awesome: -- And yeah CS is a threatening tool all-around. It deserves respect & should never be ignored in the regard that you want to stay alive, so all the tech scenarios & platform tumble fall moments are precious enough to warrant more thought to those situations.
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:4diddy:I don't see this as A tier. In fact, I don't think it's even B. Being able to shield cancel is about the best thing for this attack. Because unlike other projectiles you can pick up the nut out of the air and use it as your own. Mega Man has that issue too, but there are few truly scary applications for Metal Blade that involve throwing it directly at the opponent. Peanut Popgun's explosion from full charge is Diddy's strongest individual attack in terms of knockback, but the projectile itself is low reward and wouldn't gimp recoveries if it did hit.

:4feroy:I really don't see a point. Marth/Lucina's shieldbreaker has massive range and deals extra shield damage. Roy has ten less endlag on his move, but what do you accomplish by landing this 23 startup attack anyway? Instant kill on a full charge is nice, but for a shield break scenario, just push them to the ledge and you'll only need them to have about 25% damage for full charged Fsmash to secure the stock. The hitbox is tied to the explosion and not the sword, allowing for good horizontal disjoint but not vertical, defeating the potential for this to be an alternative Fair. I see this in D.
I would rank Peanut Popgun semi-high for Diddy solely because the move has a challenging wall of pain-tactic to get through when firing peanuts in a continuous arc covering ledge options or having them take priority in z-catching the item. This is only seen when Diddy has advantage pressuring the ledge, but otherwise the move being shield-canceled & B-reversed can really shift a lot of movement in the air. This strategy proves to be a tricky mixup to keep up with especially when your character is not mobile enough to catch the monkey. I was kinda okay with B-tier but without a Banana at ledge, the peanuts aren't as threatening as A-tier would describe, & it basically boils down to the good movement mixup from a B-Reversed Peanut cancel especially seen out of Monkey Flip.

Roy honestly got a maintained C-rating from me simply because the move is really terrifying at the ledge. Even if you throw out the move & may get the 10% recoil damage for attempting a full-power FB, you're definitely striking fear into the opponent delaying & stalling their recovery pattern enough for them to reach the ledge much later. But the scenario of when they grab too early & wouldn't want to be hanging on ledge, that's when they have to do something such as a ledge-drop & airdodge onto stage if you don't possess a counterattack. Ike & Roy both have this strong & fearsome trap that makes you feel very tense at the ledge & it shouldn't be surprising. Ike's is more dangerous though for that huge pillar coverage for ledge-jump & ledge-drop doublejumping towards stage.
 

|RK|

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Neat. Thanks for the additional info. Unfortunately Star spit is even worse than we're describing because again, a standard form of mashing from the victim causes them to escape from the star form swiftly even when they're spit-out at a ridiculously high % while Kirby was at a very low %. No matter what the current % for both Kirby & the victim are, mashing invalidates this move entirely & that's a huge let down. . .

I just don't know if Inhale/Copy Ability/Star spit is a A-tier move with all things considered. I'd honestly just say that Kirby is the tier list itself because it's literally MU-dependent to create a ditto-scenario with that original special move. It's one thing for Villager's Pocket to be MU-dependent due to projectiles needed to make it more useful in a match, but Inhale depends solely on the victim you fight. This makes me more curious about the exact similarities & differences between every Copy Ability vs the original special though. I didn't think Straight-Lunge would be great on Kirby, but hey I'm not against it. Does Kirby have the same %-based heavy armor in his Straight Lunge like Little Mac's?? And speaking of that, in general knowing the exact differences between every Copy Ability to the original would be much more key & provide absolute dominance of an A-tier at least to me (I'm a lab junkie when it comes to that).
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I would rank Peanut Popgun semi-high for Diddy solely because the move has a challenging wall of pain-tactic to get through when firing peanuts in a continuous arc covering ledge options or having them take priority in z-catching the item. This is only seen when Diddy has advantage pressuring the ledge, but otherwise the move being shield-canceled & B-reversed can really shift a lot of movement in the air. This strategy proves to be a tricky mixup to keep up with especially when your character is not mobile enough to catch the monkey. I was kinda okay with B-tier but without a Banana at ledge, the peanuts aren't as threatening as A-tier would describe, & it basically boils down to the good movement mixup from a B-Reversed Peanut cancel especially seen out of Monkey Flip.
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Roy honestly got a maintained C-rating from me simply because the move is really terrifying at the ledge. Even if you throw out the move & may get the 10% recoil damage for attempting a full-power FB, you're definitely striking fear into the opponent delaying & stalling their recovery pattern enough for them to reach the ledge much later. But the scenario of when they grab too early & wouldn't want to be hanging on ledge, that's when they have to do something such as a ledge-drop & airdodge onto stage if you don't possess a counterattack. Ike & Roy both have this strong & fearsome trap that makes you feel very tense at the ledge & it shouldn't be surprising. Ike's is more dangerous though for that huge pillar coverage for ledge-jump & ledge-drop doublejumping towards stage.
That's fair haha :p

Straight Lunge has the same properties as Little Mac's - but while Mac's SL is a bit high (Kirby can duck his), Kirby's hits the ledge. So Mac's inability to snap to the ledge gets ruined by SL. Additionally, it can be used to armor through up b on frame 1. Really good in that MU.

Samus's charge shot is similarly improved - not only does it hit on the ledge, but it combos out of fthrow and tech chases out of dtilt. Really threatening in that MU, and forces a Samus's approach.

Others that are improved are Pikmin Pluck (Pluck dash to upthrow Kreygasm), Luma Shot, Monado Arts, etc. Needles kinda, since Kirby doesn't extend his hitbox as much as Sheik does. So on.
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Peanut Popgun isn't bad at all. Instant Popgun Cancelling is faster than shield drops, so running tilts are feasible with quick fingers. Good on Kirby since he has limited options while running.
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I'm reasonably sure Roy's Flare Blade doesn't hit the ledge. So stalling is a decent option, while it isn't with Eruption.
 

QualityQ

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Ok so here is the initial list for Neutral-Special:


Olimar is N/A cause his neutral special is just too complex to compare with the other neutral-specials. Also there is a lot in C-tier, which I feel could have more discussion on.
Did you miss all the Pac man examples we listed? Not sure how Villager, Kirby, DHD can be A if Pac isn't. Fruit is essential to his gameplan and has crazy diversity/flexibility/utility. Certainly better than all of C and B characters here.
 

|RK|

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Did you miss all the Pac man examples we listed? Not sure how Villager, Kirby, DHD can be A if Pac isn't. Fruit is essential to his gameplan and has crazy diversity/flexibility/utility. Certainly better than all of C and B characters here.
To be fair, Pac falls apart if you steal his fruit. Worse if you have good specials, like Marth does.
 

MrGameguycolor

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To be fair, Pac falls apart if you steal his fruit. Worse if you have good specials, like Marth does.
Actually that's not true at all, if anything you put yourself at a disadvantage since you lose most of your attacks by trying to keep his fruit away from him. Not to mention you can't keep throwing & regrabbing his fruit, plus Pacman (for whatever reason) can pull out another fruit even if Villager pockets it.
 
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