Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar should both be banned

[Anthon1996]

If one of the players goes MK, then the stages should both automatically be banned. If none of the players are going MK, or if it's an MK ditto, allow 'em.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Ganon too good.

 

[ElDominio]

If one of the players goes MK, then the stages should both automatically be banned. If none of the players are going MK, or if it's an MK ditto, allow 'em.

Sounds a lot like the MK rule xDD-Master posted.

Which pretty much means that this sucks.

MK-limiting rules FTL

 

[BlueXenon]

This isn't true to all characters, Jigglypuff has an even match up against meta knight on both of these stages on my opinion.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

No such thing.

Trust me.
He still has advantage.

If he doesn't know the MU, it's even.
But assuming his gameplan is the same as ours, he wins.

 

[Chuee]

LOL @ the Ganon thing.
However did that should be red carded just for being a complete d***.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Whoever*

it took me a while to figure that out

 

[Exdeath]

And Jason was scared vs Bizkit. I know it sounds like a double standard, but Pwii took Bizkit to game 3 last hit just like his set with M2K was. Coming from someone who has sat down and personally played M2K with Snake, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oF0I6UAjJk if you're interested) I don't think he was playing the matchup as well as we've seen him play it, while Bizkit was playing incredibly.

This same argument could work for why M2K lost to Brood. You're forgetting that M2K was already in Loser's Bracket from losing to DEHF -- a player whom he has a rather large win ratio over.

 

[OverLade]

M2K was playing badly against DEHF because he just came back from playing Aramada in losers finals (Melee) and losing.

It's the same logic, but I've watched more hours of M2K than any of you in this thread and I'm just plain saying he wasn't playing very well. Him ****** Brood game 1 shows its clear that he was technically on point, his same approaches just stopped working.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

M2K was playing badly against DEHF because he just came back from playing Aramada in losers finals (Melee) and losing.

It's the same logic, but I've watched more hours of M2K than any of you in this thread and I'm just plain saying he wasn't playing very well. Him ****** Brood game 1 shows its clear that he was technically on point, his same approaches just stopped working.

He started playing bad after USA stopped cheering for him and started cheering for Brood because of how he was playing on RC.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

And Jason was scared vs Bizkit. I know it sounds like a double standard, but Pwii took Bizkit to game 3 last hit just like his set with M2K was. Coming from someone who has sat down and personally played M2K with Snake, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oF0I6UAjJk if you're interested) I don't think he was playing the matchup as well as we've seen him play it, while Bizkit was playing incredibly.

So... at that set, bizkit was really outplaying M2K by a wide margin or what?

Excuse me for just not buying it.

Look, I keep on asking for examples of why RC is broken, and what I keep seeing is close sets. I see one where an olimar (an OLIMAR! Olimar gets destroyed on that stage!) loses to M2K by about 25%. I see one where a relatively unknown snake main (I mean no disrespect, it's just that Bizkit is not exactly an internationally known name) taking two stocks off of M2K on RC and barely losing because of a time-out. That's not domination. That's not broken. That's slight advantage.

The problem isn't the stage itself. Metaknight doesn't dominate many character on rainbowcruise, why is it do you think they aim for the timeout? Good characters have perfectly reasonable matchups against MK on cruise IF he actually fights them. But the problem is that Cruise allows MK to run away safely. That's literally the only reason he even beats Snake on cruise. The ship is terrible for him, so he can just plank and scrooge there. The horizontal part isn't good for him either, but he can still camp and run away and bait.

Yeah, I know, MK can camp and scrooge on the stage a lot. So what keeps happening? M2K is probably the gayest MK in the states, and even he is ****ing up so badly that someone like Bizkit can strip two stocks off of him? Is it inhumanly difficult to play the stage correctly? Or is it just not as obviously uneven as you think? RC gives MK an advantage. I know this. But you seem to be COMPLETELY overstating this advantage. Why are players able to take two stocks off of M2K if the stage is so ridiculous? Can you show me a set where a top-level MK times out a top-level player and doesn't go down to last stock or lose? Or just something of the sort? Because I just am not seeing it at all, and I doubt that it's accurate.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So... at that set, bizkit was really outplaying M2K by a wide margin or what?

Excuse me for just not buying it.

Look, I keep on asking for examples of why RC is broken, and what I keep seeing is close sets. I see one where an olimar (an OLIMAR! Olimar gets destroyed on that stage!) loses to M2K by about 25%. I see one where a relatively unknown snake main (I mean no disrespect, it's just that Bizkit is not exactly an internationally known name) taking two stocks off of M2K on RC and barely losing because of a time-out. That's not domination. That's not broken. That's slight advantage.



Yeah, I know, MK can camp and scrooge on the stage a lot. So what keeps happening? M2K is probably the gayest MK in the states, and even he is ****ing up so badly that someone like Bizkit can strip two stocks off of him? Is it inhumanly difficult to play the stage correctly? Or is it just not as obviously uneven as you think? RC gives MK an advantage. I know this. But you seem to be COMPLETELY overstating this advantage. Why are players able to take two stocks off of M2K if the stage is so ridiculous? Can you show me a set where a top-level MK times out a top-level player and doesn't go down to last stock or lose? Or just something of the sort? Because I just am not seeing it at all, and I doubt that it's accurate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0eYUlAQLk&feature=fvwrel

Does a jv two stock count?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Didn't M2K **** Gnes on Smashville at Genesis 2 as well?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0eYUlAQLk&feature=fvwrel

Does a jv two stock count?

The sad part is that that's a better example than most that I've seen. It's also from 2009 and features M2K playing pretty damn aggressively and unsafely on the stage.

...And then in game three, Gnes got wrecked on Smashville by M2K timing him out. Oh, the horror.

Which tournament is that from? I can't see the comments and **** because it's blocked in germany and my proxy sucks ***.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The sad part is that that's a better example than most that I've seen. It's also from 2009 and features M2K playing pretty damn aggressively and unsafely on the stage.

...And then in game three, Gnes got wrecked on Smashville by M2K timing him out. Oh, the horror.

Which tournament is that from? I can't see the comments and **** because it's blocked in germany and my proxy sucks ***.

Not sure but this was when ADHD was still best Diddy and M2K had problems with the diddy MU. Gnes was not as good then as he is now but M2K was really bad at the MU.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...Yet despite being bad at the Diddy match-up, M2K still beats him to a similar extent on a starter.

 

[Player-1]

That vid was from winterfest, and yeah the fact that it is from 2009 doesn't really give it much credibility.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

But yeah, basically it's a set from '09 where M2K first times him out with a wide berth on RC... And then does the same on Smashville in game 3. Come on, gimme something here.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

...Yet despite being bad at the Diddy match-up, M2K still beats him to a similar extent on a starter.

At the time M2K was a better player than Gnes. He gimped Gnes at a very low percent. Just because a player is bad at a match up doesn't mean he isn't going to **** you up for a big mistake especially if it is M2K.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNxQJfcz_vE&t=5m13s

you see almost the same thing happens here. Diddy is a very gimpable character.

@ P-1, MKs have only gotten better on that stage and better in general so that isn't really a good argument.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What isn't a good argument is you referencing a video from 09 and johnning for him making a mistake and getting gimped when we point out that M2K beat him similarly on a different stage.

Still waiting for the hard evidence that MK ***** on these stages to the point of them being auto-win.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What isn't a good argument is you referencing a video from 09 and johnning for him making a mistake and getting gimped when we point out that M2K beat him similarly on a different stage.

Still waiting for the hard evidence that MK ***** on these stages to the point of them being auto-win.

Both of the Stocks that M2K took in RC were at high percents. Had he gotten a gimp, maybe he would have won with a solid two stocks. Besides, It's not like anything has changed in RC. It is still the same stage as it was in 09.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just like to point out Jebus that we are now traversing into the realm of irrelevant, hardcore theory-craft.

If you continue trying to say that this video is proof of anything, expect the next few pages to be filled with lots of people saying "Oh, but what if M2K/Gnes did this instead?"

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Just like to point out Jebus that we are now traversing into the realm of irrelevant, hardcore theory-craft.

If you continue trying to say that this video is proof of anything, expect the next few pages to be filled with lots of people saying "Oh, but what if M2K/Gnes did this instead?"

Fine, but the fact that the video is from 09 doesn't change anything. It is still the same stage now as it was two years ago.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...

But the meta-game is different so players can use/abuse the stage's properties in different ways?

Obviously?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

...

But the meta-game is different so players can use/abuse the stage's properties in different ways?

Obviously?

The fact that MKs have only gotten stronger on that stage with time (in that MU at least) would only help my argument.

 

[Atomic Yoshi]

When you fight a Metaknight in a set, you basically have to 2-0 him on neutrals in an already disadvantaged matchup. Isn't that a bit ridiculous?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

When you fight a Metaknight in a set, you basically have to 2-0 him on neutrals in an already disadvantaged matchup. Isn't that a bit ridiculous?

It wouldn't be if we took out two of his basically auto-win stages.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The fact that MKs have only gotten stronger on that stage with time (in that MU at least) would only help my argument.

Is there any reason for you to assume that only MKs have gotten stronger on that stage? Have Diddy mains just been sitting on their ***** for the last year and a half or what?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Is there any reason for you to assume that only MKs have gotten stronger on that stage? Have Diddy mains just been sitting on their ***** for the last year and a half or what?

MKs in general have been getting better. It's only natural that they are going to be doing better in a stage that they are already good at.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MKs in general have been getting better. It's only natural that they are going to be doing better in a stage that they are already good at.

Diddy Kongs in general have been getting better. It's only natural that they are going to be doing better in a stage that they play on very frequently.

Again: This is all pointless theory-craft now, can someone bring up a different video?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy Kongs in general have been getting better. It's only natural that they are going to be doing better in a stage that they play on very frequently.

Again: This is all pointless theory-craft now, can someone bring up a different video?

Why? So you guys can say the same thing? Fine, I'll try once more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TIv5mo2LbI

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If that video also suffers from:
a) being a year and a half old
and
b) being rendered irrelevant by noticing how little difference there is between the game on MK's "auto-win" stage and the game on a "starter" stage.

Then yes, we will say the same thing.

I'll start watching that video now, but considering it features Olimar's worst stage, it's not looking too hopeful for your case at the moment.

EDIT: Okay, it seems legitimate. Though all it is making me say is "ban MK" and to a lesser extent "Dabuz should have used his stage ban on Rainbow Cruise". It doesn't really feel like the MK/RC combination being broken, just the better player out-playing the worse player on that worse player's worst stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

When you fight a Metaknight in a set, you basically have to 2-0 him on neutrals in an already disadvantaged matchup. Isn't that a bit ridiculous?

...Except that's not true. There have damn well been cases of MKs losing on their "auto-win" counterpicks. Furthermore, whether or not they really are that broken is kind of the point of content for this thread.

The fact that MKs have only gotten stronger on that stage with time (in that MU at least) would only help my argument.

"The fact" meaning your subjective assertion that could damn well be completely wrong.

Why? So you guys can say the same thing?

Wait, you don't see what was wrong with that video?

Fine, I'll try once more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TIv5mo2LbI

Ah, that's more like it... At least it's recent, and it seems M2K is playing pretty damn ga–

...

Oh wow, Jebus, you are a moron.

Let's look at what you were trying to prove and what you offered as proof.
What you were trying to prove: "Metaknight's time-out/other abilities on RC are broken in the vast majority of matchups to the extent where the stage needs to be banned".
What you showed: a match between M2K and Dabuz where M2K won via KO after losing two stocks AGAINST AN OLIMAR! And to add to this, M2K then went and beat him by exactly the same margin on Olimar's best stage.

 

[Dabuz]

The reason he won is because the RC match is because the match was going to the last minute, and i had to go hard and take lots of risks that got me hurt, just because otherwise i would have no chance. The only reason i even took two stocks is because ALMOST EVERY MK IN EXISTENCE CPS ME TO THAT STAGE SO I KNOW HOW TO HANDLE MYSELF THERE DESPITE IT BEING A HORRIBLE STAGE.

Then on YI, look at the way he is on the edge, or how he glides over the stage, he was pretty much untouchable, there was nothing i could do to hurt him unless he finally got off the edge, BTW, that isn't oli's best stage in the MU, not at all. I could of played better on YI though, but there were very few times M2K was even hittable.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The reason he won is because the RC match is because the match was going to the last minute, and i had to go hard and take lots of risks that got me hurt, just because otherwise i would have no chance.

But when he's on his last stock and you're dead, does that really speak highly of how broken MK's ability to time people out on RC is?

The only reason i even took two stocks is because ALMOST EVERY MK IN EXISTENCE CPS ME TO THAT STAGE SO I KNOW HOW TO HANDLE MYSELF THERE DESPITE IT BEING A HORRIBLE STAGE.

So... you got better?

Then on YI, look at the way he is on the edge, or how he glides over the stage, he was pretty much untouchable, there was nothing i could do to hurt him unless he finally got off the edge, BTW, that isn't oli's best stage in the MU, not at all. I could of played better on YI though, but there were very few times M2K was even hittable.

What's oli's best stage in the MU? Either way, the same level of losing happened on both stages, so I don't see how you can use the former to claim "MK is broken at timing out on RC" when you lost by the same margin on YI. >.>

 

[Dabuz]

But when he's on his last stock and you're dead, does that really speak highly of how broken MK's ability to time people out on RC is?

so your saying i should of just, not tried to attack him, and let him run out the last 30 seconds or so, just to prove a point about his ability to time out on RC? The entire match im trying to do damage to him and hit him, but even so, it goes to the last minute because for the most part he just runs away, if i wasn't forced to put myself in horribad positions to get damage, he would of timed me out. If you watch the WHOLE match and not focus on the way end, what does he do? Run away. What am i doing? Getting hit for attempting to stop him from running away. If i didn't try and punish his up-B, what would of happened? I would of been timed out because there are no opportunities to hit him enough, if at all, during the section of the stage we were on.

So... you got better?



What's oli's best stage in the MU? Either way, the same level of losing happened on both stages, so I don't see how you can use the former to claim "MK is broken at timing out on RC" when you lost by the same margin on YI. >.>

IMO, castle siege, then BF, then Lylat. Watch how he plays on YI, he avoids conflict until he can nado safely or can use invincibility to safely attack me. The difference is, on YI, he can't move with the stage for 7 and a half minutes. Even so, he makes the match last 5 minutes, i'd guess that, half the time during the match, he is on the ledge, being untouchable. Im not using this to say that MK can stall on RC, Im trying to say that MK can stall people out if he wants on any stage. MK doesn't need to win by time out to use tactics that stall a match.

Watch ADHD vs. M2K at Genesis 2, M2K is scrooging, avoiding all conflict, and staying on the moving platform on SV in order to keep from being vulnerable, he employs similar tactics the whole set.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXw3j524JHE

 

[Player-1]

@ P-1, MKs have only gotten better on that stage and better in general so that isn't really a good argument.

Actually...no they haven't they're doing the same exact thing they've been doing, they're just getting better as a player not the stage. Also, the same assumption goes with everyone else...that they got better on the stage either so yeah your argument is pretty much invalid using year+ old videos and that's being lenient.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXw3j524JHE

...Jebus, you are a moron. Inui played aggressive and three-stocked him. In an already ****ty matchup. On a stage that sucks *** for DK. Way to prove your point about stalling with a match that lasted about 3 minutes and ended in a rufio. >.>

so your saying i should of just, not tried to attack him, and let him run out the last 30 seconds or so, just to prove a point about his ability to time out on RC? The entire match im trying to do damage to him and hit him, but even so, it goes to the last minute because for the most part he just runs away, if i wasn't forced to put myself in horribad positions to get damage, he would of timed me out. If you watch the WHOLE match and not focus on the way end, what does he do? Run away. What am i doing? Getting hit for attempting to stop him from running away. If i didn't try and punish his up-B, what would of happened? I would of been timed out because there are no opportunities to hit him enough, if at all, during the section of the stage we were on.

...And then he beat you again by the same margin on YI.

Look, I get it, MK-Olimar sucks for Olimar on RC. Here's the thing though: this is not news. It's not just that MK-Olimar sucks on RC, it's that Olimar really ****ing sucks on RC. Olimar as a character really struggles on several of the more hardcore counterpicks because he sucks at adapting to certain elements, specifically a lack of ledges, stage movement, and the like. This is a character weakness.

However, what we're talking about here is whether or not RC is broken. Whether or not it sucks for Olimar is kind of irrelevant when so much of the rest of the cast deals with it more or less "just fine".

IMO, castle siege, then BF, then Lylat.

Fair enough, makes sense. Maybe you should've picked one of those, then?

Watch how he plays on YI, he avoids conflict until he can nado safely or can use invincibility to safely attack me. The difference is, on YI, he can't move with the stage for 7 and a half minutes. Even so, he makes the match last 5 minutes, i'd guess that, half the time during the match, he is on the ledge, being untouchable. Im not using this to say that MK can stall on RC, Im trying to say that MK can stall people out if he wants on any stage. MK doesn't need to win by time out to use tactics that stall a match.

So... it's not an RC problem, but an MK problem? That really clears a thing or two up....

RED HALBERD, WHERE U @?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What's your point? there was nothing stopping him from aiming for the time out. He saw a chance at taking out an aggressive DK and he took it. Also, if that is such a bad MU, how do you explain the fact that Dr. Grandpa won the first match, got completely ****ed up second round and ended up wining the set on his own CP.