Social Radiant Hero of Legend: Ike Thread

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The f-air not KOing until after 150% damage? That doesn't sound very good, because last I've checked, it could KO Mario below 130% damage in Smash 3DS / Wii U.

Not like FSmash is ever gonna hit tho, lol

You do need a good read to pull it off. Sure, Ike's f-smash is not a move that you want to be spamming in a reckless manner, but it would still need the KO power whenever you do have the opportunity to land it.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I never said the move was bad, but it's absurd that the move doesn't kill Link on the edge at almost 150% judging from its animation.

The f-air not KOing until after 150% damage? That doesn't sound very good, because last I've checked, it could KO Mario below 130% damage in Smash 3DS / Wii U.

Again, the factors need to be weighed. How heavy is Link? Last I checked, he's still a heavyweight (Mario is not). How stale was Fair when Ike hit Link with it? Going over the video, he'd used Fair several times already by then (At the beginning of the match, Fair freshly dealt 14.5%. When he hit Link at the moment in question it only dealt 10.1%; it was clearly stale. That's a 31% damage decrease which also affects knockback.) What was the Link player's DI? This Link player had been in several videos and showed a strong level of dominant play and definitely demonstrated strong DI reactions, even in this video. So it's safe to assume that his DI was good.

Is anyone aware that you can measure how close Link was to the blast zone once he was hit by Ike? That little mini-map shows up and puts Link an inch from the blast zone. I'm certain Link would've died if he took even a single percent more or if Fair wasn't stale.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

NintendoKnight : I guess you also have to take into consideration how stale-move negation affects knockback dealt. In Brawl, stale moves can severely weaken an attack's KBG. Whereas, for Smash 3DS / Wii U, the knockback reduction is less severe, but even when fresh, attacks seem to deal less knockback than when the stale move mechanics are turned off (such as in Training).

 

[NintendoKnight]

NintendoKnight : I guess you also have to take into consideration how stale-move negation affects knockback dealt. In Brawl, stale moves can severely weaken an attack's KBG. Whereas, for Smash 3DS / Wii U, the knockback reduction is less severe, but even when fresh, attacks seem to deal less knockback than when the stale move mechanics are turned off (such as in Training).

This is correct. We don't know how much stale-move negation effects knockback just yet. We don't have raw data numbers to crunch with, we can only measure what we see from the demo videos. This is mighty important because, as I mentioned in an earlier post, stale-move negation now applies to attacks that hit enemy shields (which is the first time this has ever happened in this series).

That's why I want people to be careful as they analyze footage and not to assume what is or isn't effective in this new game. We can't measure what's invisible in addition to everything being subject to change. If we're going by the assumption that Ultimate is mechanically identical to Sm4sh, then we're going to be way off with our calculations and certainly in for a rude awakening when we're proven wrong.

 

[Idon]

Time to bask in all the buffs.

 

[Arrei]

I hadn't noticed that Aether no longer goes through the stage. I wonder if that was done for aesthetic rather than balance reasons, since it'd more accurately follow his own path of travel, when previously we'd routinely see the sword pass through the ground and spin on stage, then teleport itself into Ike's hands when he winds up actually spinning at the edge.

 

[FieryRebirth]

A nerf hidden under an aesthetic fix. Is it true that you can grab the edge with a reverse Aether like in Brawl again?

 

[Idon]

A nerf hidden under an aesthetic fix. Is it true that you can grab the edge with a reverse Aether like in Brawl again?

Eh, it also helps him a bit if say, someone tries to edgeguard him while near the stage walls.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Is it true that you can grab the edge with a reverse Aether like in Brawl again?

It is not true. Ike still dies if he faces away from the stage. Yes, I'm still upset about it. Yes, I understand it's for balancing reasons. Yes, I still think it's dumb anyway.

Freaking Cloud can face the other way and catch the ledge, why can't Ike? Although, just recently saw some footage where Ike (though a less effective player) used Aether several times to meteor smash to KO characters under 50% damage.

Wait, I found the footage:

He does it at about 6:17. Bam, two for the price of one! The meteor on this sucker looks intense.

 

[Arrei]

Well, if nothing else, that makes it seem like it'll trap opponents more reliably when you actually do hit someone with it. Currently, floaty opponents like Kirby tend to just pop out the top of the move if you catch them with the end of the sword toss.

 

[FieryRebirth]

The downward slash of Aether was always deadly off-stage if I recall, even at low %s. I do see the improvements on the minor "suction effect" when the blade spins that draws in lightweights like Kirby/

 

[kro_]

Time to bask in all the buffs.

I love the juicy new ftilt, though I'm gonna miss super-strong uptilt

 

[Banjobeast158]

I love the juicy new ftilt, though I'm gonna miss super-strong uptilt

I was thinking he might have have hit with a late hit box or something, but I couldn't tell.

 

[Arrei]

The example in the video was showing it hitting a Ness right behind Ike's body and the E3 data for the late hitbox shows it being even weaker than 12%, so that doesn't seem likely.

I just still hate how silly of a move it is for a swordfighter.

 

[Idon]

The example in the video was showing it hitting a Ness right behind Ike's body and the E3 data for the late hitbox shows it being even weaker than 12%, so that doesn't seem likely.

I just still hate how silly of a move it is for a swordfighter.

Yeah, that one arm bench press is weird.

I would much rather see one of his signature backflip slashes.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'll never understand why the f-tilt's hitbox timing was way out of sync with the animation data.

 

[Banjobeast158]

The example in the video was showing it hitting a Ness right behind Ike's body and the E3 data for the late hitbox shows it being even weaker than 12%, so that doesn't seem likely.

I just still hate how silly of a move it is for a swordfighter.

Well darn. I guess I'll take less end lag over damage, but would rather have less start up. Either way, I think I'll be happy with how he plays in the new game he looks great!

 

[Arrei]

If the move is still a potent kill move, I think I'll enjoy this tradeoff. One of my favorite things to do in 4 is a tomahawk Utilt. I'm not certain if it's because people drop their shields to grab me, or if it catches their toes through a weakened shield due to its low hitbox, but it scores a lot more kills than it seemingly should... but its endlag makes it quite a risky option as well.

 

[Arrei]

We seem to have confirmation that Eruption edgeguarding is still a thing, at least with the first plume of flame. It reached down to hit Marth quite a sizeable distance below the ledge.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Just saw that earlier, is down throw his combo throw now or what? I'm glad he isn't so reliant on the grabs anymore, the buffs to neutral air should help in that regard.

 

[Arrei]

The entire cast seems to have had most throw combos cut out. Dthrow might combo at early percents based on what other people have been saying, but I assume that since rolling and airdodging is being made more punishable in this game, a throw's main purpose is to put opponents in a disadvantageous position for you to chase them down. If those platforms weren't there, those directional airdodges from Marth post-Uthrow would have put him in pretty significant endlag for Ike to read and punish.

 

[Idon]

Oh now this is pure bliss

 

[Arrei]

Interesting that both rounds ended up with an Uthrow to Uair. I would assume that isn't true since other Hoo-hahs all got cut but having to carefully ration your dodges really makes these hitboxes terrifying.

Does it look like Ike's tech roll got normalized there? He always had a really long one but it feels like it traveled less distance.

 

[Arrei]

A three-round match against Mac here. It's not exactly top-level play but I'm seeing a good deal of whiffed Nair conversions in there at low-medium percent, especially in the last fight. Don't know if it's the player not reacting to and taking advantage of his hits quickly enough or not, he does seem to pause for a fairly long time when he pulls off a few Nairs against Mac's last stock on the third match. It could also be the rumored sourspot hit we don't seem to have de/confirmed yet?

 

[Banjobeast158]

It is crazy how little lag there is on nair! The player did seem to pause some before his follow ups to nair, also I didn't see any sour spot hits. One thing to note is around the 7 minute mark he unintentionally does a quick draw landing lag cancel, it looks identical to the smash 4 counterpart height.

 

[Arrei]

Well, the sourspot part was based on the preliminary observations calling it a "non-tipper sourspot", and both whiffs were close-range hilt hits while the third one that apparently kept Mac in hitstun long enough to collide with the platform was a clean blade hit. But he was also at higher percent by that point, so nothing concrete.

If there really is a sourspot on it, I wonder if it might allow us to secure kill confirms at a pretty sizeable percent range...

 

[san.]

Almost all the main differences on Ike's frame data are noted. https://smashboards.com/threads/e3-build-information-changes-and-damage-values-ike.455509/ is fairly accurate except for one area. Zapp's and Meshima's charts are also accurate for Ike.

We don't know much about hidden knockback changes or any potential hitbox size adjustments.

Ike's nair sourspot is the same as smash 4 with less damage. With low landing lag and 3 frame jumpsquats, the combo and kill confirm potential is high.

 

[Arrei]

Yeah, I was referring to that note under the neutral aerial, "? now has a non-tipper sourspot in additional to late hit (~6.3%)". Were they just referring to the late hit all along, or do we have a weaker hilt hitbox now?

 

[san.]

Nair pre-existing sourspot was reduced in damage from 7->6. There are no other sourspots. Some of that must have been posted before knowledge of the short hop damage multiplier was known.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Last I've checked, Ike's n-air never had a sourspot. It does have a late hit period though.

Perhaps Smash Ultimate modified Ike's attacks to have sourspots now?

 

[san.]

No, I meant the sourspot as the late hit.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

No, I meant the sourspot as the late hit.

There's still a difference between a late hit and a sourspot though, since the latter is typically active on the same frames as the sweetspot.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Great match between two very talented players!

The landing lag buffs are very noticeable in the set, although it looks like Ryuga is still getting used to the combos off of nair.

 

[Arrei]

There's still a difference between a late hit and a sourspot though, since the latter is typically active on the same frames as the sweetspot.

Well, point is what we initially thought was an elusive, hard to specify sourspot was very likely to just be the short hop multiplier, so we probably don't need to worry too much about being super precise with Ike's middling mobility.

 

[san.]

There's still a difference between a late hit and a sourspot though, since the latter is typically active on the same frames as the sweetspot.

I see what you mean, but I don't think that's globally accepted. I can definitely see some nairs like Fox's and Mario's being called a sourspot. To me, sweetspot is the most powerful part of an attack and everything else is sourspot, otherwise you'll have to define early-hit sweet/sourspot, late-hit sweet/sourspot, etc.

Well, point is what we initially thought was an elusive, hard to specify sourspot was very likely to just be the short hop multiplier, so we probably don't need to worry too much about being super precise with Ike's middling mobility.

Yep, it was likely the short hop multiplier. Other than nair, Ike's faster fair and ftilt are likely side-effects of the poorly implemented frame speed modifiers putting those attacks in a weird pseudostate.


Still, I'm glad to see some potential in some of the newer mechanics. I don't think it will take too long to get used to most of the changes other than understanding how parry affects the neutral game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I see what you mean, but I don't think that's globally accepted. I can definitely see some nairs like Fox's and Mario's being called a sourspot. To me, sweetspot is the most powerful part of an attack and everything else is sourspot, otherwise you'll have to define early-hit sweet/sourspot, late-hit sweet/sourspot, etc.

I guess throughout my times studying the script data from a good portion of fighters, I've learned which words should be best used when describing an attack's hitboxes.

For an example, Bowser's f-smash has a clean sweetspot (23%), a clean sourspot (20%), a late sweetspot (17%), and a late sourspot (14%).

In regards to Ike, his f-smash has an early hit (19% and no sourspots) period, while the clean hit period has a sweetspot (22%), and a sourspot (19%).

On a side note, Giga Bowser's dash attack can deal up to two hits, but the first hit does have a late hit period.

 

[Inawordyes]

As someone who's mained Ike since Brawl, is he going to be more viable than he is atm in SM4SH based on what we've already seen?

 

[Idon]

As someone who's mained Ike since Brawl, is he going to be more viable than he is atm in SM4SH based on what we've already seen?

Absolutely.

He has much better landing lag, a far better jump-squat, and a new upair that's far more likely to catch enemies above him.

 

[FieryRebirth]

Yep Ultimate Ike is much better than he was in Brawl, and is better than he was in Smash 4. He may not be my main but I know I'm going to have fun with him in FFAs

 

[Arrei]

On Battlefield, fresh Utilt falls just short of a kill against Zelda at 113% one minute in, dash attack does manage to kill at 88% at the edge with what appears to be inward DI at 2:16. Nothing solid we can use, of course, but some interesting food for thought, if anyone wants to attempt to see how that shapes up with Sm4sh.